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As the USA and Europe do have such a different views on the term electrical engineering, I suggest that this page now deal only with the items that are common betweeen US and Europe and that the other subjects are shown on another page (like electroncs engineering for instance). Could be done by links in text or 'See also's' at bottom of page. Could I have some reactions please from the other editors interested in this page?--Light current 02:30, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
In a further attempt at reconciliation between me and other editors interested in this page, I am prepared to make another conciliatory proposal. This is in fact the same proposal as User:C J Cowie made a few days ago in that there should only be one page called Electrical/electronic engineering (note I put electrical first as a goodwill gesture). If this page were to explain the differing terminologies between US and Europe, I think this could solve all our differences. I think Cedars' suggestion is retrograde and solves nothing.
Would editors like to comment on this latest attempt at concensus??--Light current 01:36, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for response CJ. I agree with you on the use of "/" or "and". The challenge of explaining the useage of the 2 terms will indeed be a difficult one but Im sure that a collaborative effort between all interested parties will ensure a satisfactory outcome (eventually!)--Light current 02:15, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
This is a survey that aims to determine which version of the electrical engineering article is preferred. Please vote for one version or the other. Feel free to add additional comments to your votes. More background on the issue can be obtained by reading this talk page.
This survey is asking the wrong question, and missing the point. I don't think any result that comes from it either way is going to a valid concensus on if Electrical Engineering and Electronic Engineering should be different articles, as it instead asks which is the better of two articles on Electrical Engineering.
This poll can not, and should not, be used to represent any concensus on this issue either way. (Nor can any straw poll generate a concensus) Idealy, this survey should a) Not have happened at all as a general discussion had only been ongoing for a short time, b) been a question directed at the root dispute not two versions of an article. --Barberio 13:39, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Version 1 was the existing version of the article. It acknowledges electronics engineering is sometimes regarded as distinct from electrical engineering but discusses electronics engineering as a subfield of electrical engineering.
Version 2 is a revised version of the article by Light current. It limits discussion about electronics engineering based upon Light Current's belief that electronics engineering is not a subfield of electrical engineering.
My intention is to revert back to the original page as per the survey. The current article is a mess with bad grammar, a very short lead, duplicated information in the first few sections, muddled images, poor formatting and the bizzare inclusion of manufacturing engineering in the subfields section
I will however include information that the electrical and electronics distinction is more frequently made in the United Kingdom and Europe. You have stated that your interest is in electronics engineering not electrical engineering, so I am puzzled as to why you continue to edit this article rather than the electronics engineering article. Cedars 23:31, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Well, it is for sure that the basic branch is The Electrical Engineering. After the discovery of atom and sub-atomic particles, the applications became more wide. This gave rise to the need for a new branch of Electronics. now, we have Pure Electronics, Electronics and Telecommunications, Bio-Electronics, Electrical and Electronics, Instrumentation and Control, Electrical Instrumentation, Electronics and Instrumentation, etc.. We cant go on making all these project pages now. but some day or the other, they are going to be created. It is useless to argue on this point. It is never going to end. Let us keep the projects as they are and provide their respective histories. Then we can always argue on the history topics. Then, we might also include future or future scope topics for future reference. --Electron Kid 03:12, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Electronics is a subfield of electrical engineering. It's the same physics behind both and I don't think there's a need to completely "sterilize" the electrical engineering article of all references to this important and useful field. Look at the HVDC stuff and tell me where the electronics leaves off and the "electrical" begins. It's all one. --Wtshymanski 06:00, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
The point is, in Europe at least, all these subfields come under the umbrella of electronics engineering in university and industry at large. This is plain to see by looking at some of my references. Therefore it is wrong to say that world wide all this stuff is the province of electrical engineers.
Do you know if people who deal with electronics (ie radio, comms, etc) subjects are called electrical engineers in the US? If so, we should make that clear, and also make it clear that over here (UK and Europe) these practioners of electronics engineering are called ( surprisingly enough) electronics engineers and not electrical engineers. This may be the crux of the differences expressed.--Light current 19:54, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Well it does appear that the American/Canadian engineers are lagging well behind not only Europe but ther own institution's (IEEE) definition. More weight to my argument.--Light current 03:14, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
I did not 'break out' electronics engineering as you put it, I retreived it from the trash can. It existed before I started to work on it but someone had redirected it to electrical engineering-- thats what really annoyed me. I removed the large tracts from electrical eng before it became clear that there was indeed such a differnce in terminology and I thought they fitted better in electronics engineering. Any way the large tracts can easily be copied back in by anyone if they have a mind to (even you could do it). As I said to Cedars, my proposals were on the talk page for quite some time before I acted, and there were no negative comments of any note. Perhaps folks didnt take me seriously. Big mistake!
It would seem from your post that you have not noticed my admission of error and my new suggestions for the page. There is still a problem, but not as great a problem as I thought there was. As I said before, the page needs to represent views of all the English speaking world, and, in a large part of it, the term electronics engineering has a distinct meaning. If you have not seen my suggestions, I repeat here and now that I am prepared to help sort out this situation, but I dont think steamrollering on with a vote on an argument that has changed is going to be very productive. Yet it seems that that is what folks want to do. A vote on the old proposal will not solve the problem. Cooperation from everyone in sorting the mess (not wallowing in it) may do.--Light current 06:41, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
My indents are well defined--Light current 07:16, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
I tell you what. You dont fix my indents and I wont fix yours- I have good reasons for doing it this way OK??--Light current 07:27, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
My indents are well defined and logical. The method you and some others use would have comments indented off the page in a very short time making it very difficult to identify the writer. My way, the writer is obvious by his constant indent value.--Light current 17:06, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Correction. It was not I who started the debate but User:Cedars as you will see if you look at the edit history of this page.--Light current 18:00, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
So a complete syllabus describing the training of an electronics engineer is nothing?? At least we say what it is we're trained in. I didnt notice similar material on the elec eng page. That gives me a good indication of your attitude to electronics engineers!--Light current 07:24, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Well yes of course I checked the old page- it had a good description of the training and education of what we call an electronics engineer, This page had effectively bben dleted by a redirect to elec eng that did not incorparate this material. I resurrected the page utilising this material and moved stuff from elec eng that I thought fitted better under electronics eng. This original info was NOT contained on the elec eng page. If you look at the edit history of elec eng you will see that I did try to modify it to bring it into line with the European view but I was reverted a couple of times by User:Cedars. So yes, I do check the articles before I rant about them - Its a pity not all editors do adequate research before commenting or voting on a subject. As to consensus, a consensus agreeing that something is OK when it plainly isn't is useless. Hence it needs bold action to shake people out of their erroneous cosy consensus!--Light current 17:50, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Ah-ha!. Now here we are at the root of the disagreement thats been going on!. OK so we must try to keep both sides of the Atlantic happy by writing the electrical engineering page such that it reflects practice and terminology throughout the world. If the term electrical engineer describes what you say (in the US) then of course the description on the page must say so. But it must also make clear that most of what you Americans call electrical engineering is, over here in Europe actually called electronics engineering and electrical eng here is only the heavy stuff! --Light current 23:30, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
I shall attempt to repair the page but with some modifications so that everyone on both sides of 'the pond' is happy--Light current 02:10, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Interesting extract from IEEE page:
What is the difference between electrical and electronics engineering?
The number of differences between electrical and electronics engineering may vary, depending on the context in which the question is asked. Some distinctions which may exist in academe may not exist in the business world. There is also a significant amount of overlap, not only between electronics and electrical engineering, but with other engineering disciplines as well. Most notable are the overlaps between electronics and computer engineering and with electrical and mechanical engineering.
Electrical engineers generally deal with large-power applications, such as utility and industrial power systems, whereas electronics engineers deal with low-power systems such as computers and communications.
Most work in electrical engineering makes use of knowledge of both electronics and electrical engineering. Power systems today are making increasing use of power electronics and digital controls for controlling power flow, and many electronic systems make use of milliwatt electro-mechanical components.
Most electrical/electronic engineering programs today focus on electronics engineering.
A few programs offer courses in basic machine theory and transmission lines that provide the fundamentals of electrical engineering, while some of the larger universities offer programs in power systems engineering. With the rapid growth in information technology, digital control systems, and robotics, EEs must have a solid understanding of electricity and magnetism as well as the ability to continually update their knowledge of electrical/electronics, mechanical, and chemical systems.
[end quote]
all bolding is mine--Light current 19:17, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
[1]
If you cant be bothered to click link its here:
Electrical and Electronic Engineering, in common with other engineering disciplines, is concerned with applying scientific principles to solve engineering problems and advance the technological level of society. It is therefore a highly vocational subject.
Electronic Engineering is concerned with ‘small scale’ systems; microelectronics, digital communications systems, computer and internet technologies.
Electrical Engineering, on the other hand, encompasses ‘large scale’ systems, namely the generation, transmission, distribution, utilisation and control of electrical power and renewable energy. At Cardiff we offer separate degree courses in Electronic Engineering and in Electrical & Electronic Engineering.
So in the Cardiff case, only Electronics eng is big enough to stand on its own! Electrical eng has to bundled with electronics if you want to study it!
Heres some more:[2][3][4] [5][6] [7][8]
This ones got electrical as a subset of electronics![9]
They dont even bother with elec eng here![10]
No electrical eng here [11] so how can electronics be a subset of it?
Electrical and electronic engineering are separate here too![12] extrct from above link:
Electrical Engineering concerns the generation, supply, distribution, application and control of electrical energy. It is the powerhouse of manufacturing industry and without it, industry and the nation would grind to a halt! The field of electrical engineering is now expanding to include automotive and ship propulsion systems, aircraft control systems, and the technology used to convert renewables such as wind and solar power into electrical energy for the national grid system. Electrical Engineering is central to virtually all manufacturing processes and their automation (imagine the career opportunities here) and the electrical engineer is often a key figure in these industries - a fast-track to management if you are so inclined. This course is available with management or language.[end]
The only real electrical eng course here is the one called power eng. T
There are a lot of other courses all including electronics or electronics eng [13]
There are many more references on the web but I think I have proved my point that Electronics engineering is in NO WAY subset of electrical eng. I will change the article to reflect this.
--Light current 00:40, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
[14] THe IEE covers both sorts of engineers and incorparates the Institute of Electronic and Radio engineers of which I was a member.
The IEEE covers both sorts of engineers as it says in their title. Are all its members call electrical engineers even if they're doing comms or radio etc and dont know one end of a motor fronm the other (like me!)?--Light current 16:45, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
[15] They say elec eng is the same as computing-- total bullshit!
[16] Look at Stanfords logo. A wavelet and a transistor. What have these got to do with Electrical?
[17] Again the Berkeley course is electronics in all but name
[18] Well MITs weird anyway. Just look at the shape of the buildings!!
[19] Most of this course is electronics
[20] look at research areas -- all electronics engineering!
[21] This says elec eng is the same as computer science - so we can discount that one!
[22] Electrical is the same as computer engineering here!
[23] Research prog all electronics, no electrical!
[24] They think elec eng and computing are the same!
[25] All research is electronic here
[26] any one who builds ccts on Sdecs has got to be joking of course and cannot be taken seriously!! [27]
[28] So elec eng is the same as computer eng again!! Total B***ocks
[29] yes, describes elec eng in its intro but all the courses are electronics!
--Light current 22:07, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Please dont patronise me!!! So you werent serious after all about wanting me to improve the article BTW I dont need your permission to change the article so try some proper arguments yourself instead of just reverting me--Light current 11:10, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
You decided to halt editing of this page- not me. I continue to improve it. You continue to criticse me for doing so --Light current 21:40, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
Cedar, I have had my intentions posted here for quite a few days. No one, until now, has decided to complain. And its only you. So much for consensus. It seems you can change the page without consensus or explanation but when I explian the good reasons for changing and get no adverse conmment, you lie in wait until Ive done all the work and then revert it!!. This is not the spirit of Wikipedia. Electrical engineering is now just a shell! Why not admit it!--Light current 10:58, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Firstly, most of those counter examples I provided you with were from universities who titled their departments something akin to the "Department of Electrical Engineering" your observation that most actually do most of their research in electronics only strengthens the claim that electronics engineering is a subfield of electrical engineering. Secondly, your viewpoint that electrical engineering and electronics engineering are separate disciplines is highlighted in the lead of the first paragraph of the article I keep reverting to. Thirdly, your claim that no-one else has objected to your changes is not true, both C J Cowie and Wtshymanski have commented on your work. [30]
A more accurate statement would be that no one has supported your changes. I stand by my request that you not edit the article until you have consensus for a change or can noticably improve the article (culling vast blocks of text from the article and ruining its formatting is not improving it). Cedars 01:16, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
Despite the references you provide it is still not universally accpeted that electronics engineering is a separate field that must be distinguished from electrical engineering. Electronics engineering has been described as a subfield of electrical engineering in this article for the past three years without incident. There is no problem with creating a separate article on electronics engineering but please do not edit the article unless your changes will improve the article's quality. Editing the lead of the article so that it describes electronics engineering as a separate discipline and then leaving the rest of the article so it describes electronic engineering as a subfield of electrical engineeering does not improve the article. Cedars 00:33, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for your support C J. Cedars 04:34, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
Light current, I'm not trying to hide your viewpoint - in the reverted article it recieves a very prominent mention in the article's lead. However your viewpoint is not a unviersal veiwpoint. Your feelings on being called an electrical engineering are fine but they are not a rationale for changing an article. On the flipside I have studied a number electronics engineering subjects and I would prefer to be called an electrical engineer to an electronics engineer. I have no problem mentioning your viewpoint in the article's lead nor do I have a problem with having a separate article for electronics engineering (I have actually been hoping someone would create one for some time) but I cannot accept your current changes to this article. If electronics engineering is that important to you, maybe your time would be better spent editing the electronics engineering article. Please consider these comments carefully. Cedars 04:34, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
--Light current 01:55, 19 November 2005 (UTC) Who said this ? please identify!--Light current 22:24, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Other than that, I think that the article should be left as Cedars has revised it.--C J Cowie
Electrical and electronic engineering are inextricably combined as recognized by their combined membership in the major professional organizations, IEE and IEEE. They share a common historical course of development. They share a common core of fundamental principles. The basic distinction between electrical and electronic engineering is that electronics engineers specialize in the design and application of electronic components and devices. According to Britannica, electronics is the "branch of physics that deals with the emission, behaviour, and effects of electrons (as in electron tubes and transistors) and with electronic devices." Electronic components and devices include electron tubes, cathode ray tubes, semiconductor devices, integrated circuits, microprocessors etc. Electrical components and devices include resistors, inductors, capacitors, transformers, electromechanical devices, motors, generators etc.--C J Cowie
--Light current 21:29, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Most electrical products and systems include a combination of electrical and electronic components and devices. --C J Cowie 14:37, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
I have added a clarification on the distinction between electrical and electronic engineering to the lead. I have no problem with a separate article being created to discuss electronic engineering. As explained in the lead, electronic engineering can be viewed as a subfield of electrical engineering or as a related but separate discipline. The choice to view it as a subfield is historic (to the article). Cedars 00:25, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
I intend to remove all material that is plainly to do with electronics engineering and put it on the correct page. The present page is misleading to an extreme in that it says electrical engineers do everything under the sun including the stuff done by electronics engineers. This is patently untrue and offensive to electronics engineers who trained and graduated in Electronic Engineering (not ELectrical)!!
Electrical engineering is about motors and power distribution and transformers and such like.
It is not about telecomms, electronic circuit design, radar, communications, radio, telemetry, radio frequency systems, waveguides, television, electronic devices, computers, optoelectronics, microwaves, fibre optics, software, audio systems, consumer electronics, telephones, GPS, satellite comms, transistors, electronic filters, aerials, noise, logic systems, electronic measuring instruments, control systems, electronic components, missile guidance systems, avionics or a host of other things. These are the preserve of Electronics In fact electrical engineering as such is quite narrow. .--Light current 01:48, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
Sorry I cant agree with that one. If thats so, how do you define electronics?--Light current 18:35, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Cedars trimmed the history section substantially. Is this really the a good move? Why not put the whole history section into an article History of electrical engineering and only provide a summary of some highlights here? I think the field of ee is large enough to justify such a move. Hirzel 16:58, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
I think that the history of technology is a fascinating subject, but most technology articles would probably be better with little or no history. It might be better to just very briefly state the contributions of the principle scientists and engineers and leave the reader to click the names and read the history in the biographical articles. A history of technology article might also be good, but individual biographical articles should still be the place for the bulk of the material. Why do I keep getting logged out in the midst of editing? --65.26.227.118 17:17, 30 October 2005 (UTC) --C J Cowie 17:18, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
I think a sub-article is a good idea but I wanted to focus on the main article. If someone could split the section into a sub-article for me I would welcome the move. As said, the main article already exceeds the 32 kB suggested maximum and I can see this becomming a problem if the main article is nominated for feature status (long articles are also a general problem for the less-enthusiastic reader). The article also needs an improved lead and a summary of unsolved problems in the area. I have already made offline progress on an Unsolved problems in electrical engineering article to fit in the [[Category:Unsolved_problems]] and could post it if desired. Cedars 03:33, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
I have only skimmed this discussion, but can I just put in an oar for the UK here? In the UK, we call most of our degree courses Electrical and electronic engineering, and the bulk of Uni departments are similarly named. Electrical engineering is not a dying breed: the professional institute here is the IEE: The Insititue of Electrical Engineersg. -Splashtalk 01:29, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
I want to put a strong vote on keeping Electrical and Electronic engineering seperate. Electrical and Electronic engineering fields are somewhat similar to Antrhopology and Sociology fields. They have overlap, and similar subjects, but are seperate fields.
Most pointedly, the summary is misleading in the distinction between the two.
Electrical engineering is the application of the physical science of electricity and related fields. Power engineering, Instrumentation engineering and Telecommunications engineering are Electrical engineering fields. They are concerned directly with the physics of operation.
Electronic engineering is the application of products of Electrical enginering. Control engineering, Signal processing and Computer engineering are Electrical enginering fields. They use individual items produced from Electrical engineering fields.
A good example, A DAC that produces signals suitable for sending to a speaker is a electical enginering product, as well as the speakers themselves. A sound card using that DAC in a computer is a product of Electronic Engineering. Someone who developes and works on DACs is not in the same specific field as someone who uses those DACs to construct soundcards.
It makes sence, both on the issue of the seperate meaning of the phrases, and the intrests of clarity, to give these two seperate subjects two seperate articles. Those in the US who might be confused by this seperation can be offered an info box showing a short summary of the two fields, and a link to the oposite one. --Barberio 06:20, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
A simpler distinction between the two that I arived at.
An Electricial engineer can produce a battery, transformer, transistors, coils and an ariel. An Electronics engineer can put it together into a radio.
--Barberio 06:33, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
This poll has been closed after only a few days when the article has been sitting here for 3 years unmolested. Only now has some interest been generated but Cedars has decided that he has now won the vote (also counting unregisted users) and has failed to count support for my version. If this vote is not reopened for a reasonable time to allow all interested parties to vote, I will continue to edit electrical engineering as I see fit bearing in mind all the new opinions that have emerged in this short period.--Light current 00:05, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Copied from my talk:--Light current 17:50, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Reverting electrical engineering
Hi Light current,
I ask you to please not revert the electrical engineering page again. The survey at 6 to 1 clearly indicates that your proposed article does not have popular support - it is rare for a poll to be as decisive as this. It would be sad to see this matter go to mediation or arbitration. In considering your next course of action, please consider that other people have put a lot of time into improving the electrical engineering article. By changing the article, you are changing their work. Please also try to look at this objectively. However you feel your work has changed the article for the better - there is now an explanation of the distinction sometimes adopted between electrical and electronics engineering in the lead and there is an electronics engineering article. It may be best for you to keep working on the electronics engineering article and then revisit this issue in a week's time. If you need to contact me please feel free to use my talk page. Best wishes,
Cedars 00:08, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
There have been a lot of comments here about 'not consistent with what I've seen in North America' and 'An American looking up electrical engineering should find information on what his society commonly considers electrical engineering'.
This is flatly not an acceptable policy, and it is actualy working counter to the Wikipedia project's attempts to reduce systemic bias.
Wikipedia's intent is to provide a Neutral Point of View on providing information. This article currently focuses, deliberatly, on the North American point of View on the meaning of 'Electrical Engineering'. This makes the article inherently POV. I'm tagging the page with {globalize} till you can come up with some method to give a neutral report of the meaning, be it in one article or by splitting into multiple articles. I'm also going to bring this to the attention of the Systemic Bias project.
I'll repeat that again, it goes against the Wikipedia Project's NPOV policy to focus description of a term primarly on its meaning to North Americans. --Barberio 14:03, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
I will also note this article is getting size warnings. This indicates that it should be split into seperate subjects anyway. --Barberio 14:09, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Please lets not display nationalism on WP--Light current 18:55, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes it may be a fact, but your quoting it is liable to stir up nationalist arguments as to who is better than whom etc. So I would ask you not to do it. Thanks--Light current 19:08, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Not when intended to incite hatred! So please desist!--Light current 23:19, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi everyone,
I am deleting the systematic bias tag from the main page and moving it to the talk page. I am also going to ask Barberio to rephrase his comments for the systematic bias page.
I am not going to remove the systematic bias tag completely because the article, like so many on Wikipedia, could use a more international focus. For example, I believe South Korea like the United States, Canada and Australia publishes detailed statistics on their workforce here. But I am unable to access them because I cannot read Korean. Nevertheless, the article does try to achieve an international perspective in the Demographics section by comparing engineering graduate numbers from eleven diferent countries, offering the detailed workforce statstics of three different countries and comparing the percentage engineering degrees make up of all degrees across six different countries.
That said, I believe the training and certification section shows just how committed this article is to achieving an international perspective. It discusses certification in Europe and eight other countries, it discusses legislation from three different countries, it presents two worldwide organizations and it uses a case example from Israel.
The reality is people all over thew world use electrical engineering to refer to the study and application of electricity and electromagnetism (including electronic engineering). Some examples include:
Zimbabwe Australia India Japan Germany United Kingdom Turkey Chile Belgium
It is disappointing that both Light Current and Barberio who are so quick to accuse other editors of bias are eager to divide the world into Europe and America. As someone who comes from one of the four other inhabitated continents on the world I would argue this sort of bias is just as bad as an article that has a heavy North American bias. The reality is that the phenomenon of distinguishing between electrical and electronic engineering is far from global and may only be common in the United Kingdom and France.
Otherwise I believe we need to get over this issue and on with improving the article.
Cedars 10:10, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Barberio,
I am moving the template back to the talk page because the Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias page says, and I quote, "The template ((limitedgeographicscope)) may be placed on the talk pages of relevant articles".
Could you please answer the following questions for me (one at a time not as a group).
What evidence can you provide that this is a viewpoint restricted to North America?
If the article does present a strictly North American viewpoint. Why would I, an Australian, support an article with a North American viewpoint?
Why do you continue to divide the world into two parts North America and Europe when there are four other inhabitable continents in the world?
In this sense, are you not the one guilty of systematic bias?
Why are the first and second paragraphs of the lead not sufficient to describe both viewpoints?
How would you describe both viewpoints?
How can you accuse me of paying lip service to the concept of countering systematic bias when I provided five paragraphs in my response discussing the issue?
Thanks,
Cedars 00:26, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I've reverted. Baird's TV system might not have been electronic, but it definitely was electrical - my learned co-editor perhaps acted in haste? --Wtshymanski 17:54, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
see here [32]
If we follow that argument we might as well include everything under the sun in elec eng. It would be better to say that EEs design RADARs not radomes.--Light current 18:50, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
What we call ourselves: Electronic or Electrical (Electrical or Electronic if you prefer) seems more to do with what we do for a living than what we studied. At least in the US, my EE education included power systems, machines, electronics (analog and digital), control systems, field and waves, communications theory, etc.
What kind of engineer:
1- Designs a radiographic or fluoroscopic Xray system? Neither(Physiscist with some electronics help) 2- Designs a medial therapy linear accelerator? neither (probably a physiscist with some help) 3- Designs a switching power supply? electronics engineer 4- Designs a motor controller? electronics engineer 5- Designs a power amplifier? electronics engineer 6- Designs an electro-plating system? electrical eng 7- Designs an engine ignition system? electronics eng (for electronic ingnition) 8- Designs a Thyratron? electronics eng 9- Designs an automatic power transfer switching system? 10- Designs a high power strobe light? electroncs eng 11- Designs a Diathermy system? RF so electronics/radio eng 12- Designs an analog computer? Electronics engineer 13- Designs a magnetron? Electronics eng/physicist 14- Designs a magnetic bearing? electrical eng 15- Designs an elevator system? electrical eng 16- Does systems design of systems have power, analog, and digital components? 17- Does 3D Field and wave simulation of integrated circuits for signal integrity?electronics eng 18- Does low power wave guide design? electronics eng 19- Designs X10 home automation systems? electronics eng
Power, logic, communications, and analog control comes together in a lot of common products and systems. The whole argument strikes mean as a just a little contrived... I can't imagine hiring someone trained in engineering with electricty who could not eventually figure out all of the above -- no matter what you call them.
Are you going to tell me there are 'Electronic Engineers' today who couldn't figure out a synchronous motor or generator, and 'Electrical Engineers' who can't code information to modulate a carrier, or figure out how a relaxtion oscillator works?66.26.87.231
Because of the intransigence of certain editors in discussions about electrical engineering, I wish to direct all interested parties' attention to the new page on Electrical and electronics engineering which I have created in an attempt to prsent a fair, factual and balanced view of the activites of engineeers in these fields world wide showing no bias one way or the other. There is much work yet to do on it, but eventually I'm hoping that when consensus is reached that it will supersede the existing page called electrical engineering--Light current 19:02, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Now that I have opened Pandoras box (so to speak), I feel that I should admit that the real scope of the problem has become much more apparent to me. We need to get evidence from wherever we can in the world on the practice of electronic and/or electrical engineering to provide as neutral a view of the subjesct as is possible. There will always be omissions because we wont get all the data in a finite time. But where we do see bias or lack of account of other countries' practices, we should seek to rectify it immediately whilst always being prepared to adapt the article to take account of new information as it becomes available.
This will not be a short process, as User:Cedars would like it to be, and I think we should all settle down for the long haul on this one. It will of course require slightly more cooperation between us than of late, but I feel maybe soon is the time to bury the hatchet and start working TOGETHER. All in favor say AYE!--Light current 02:03, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Frankly, this dispute is getting silly.
For a start, atempting to give information about both Electrical and Electronic engineering on one article has resulted in an overlong article that is giving length warnings on edits.
Secondly, now the article does not distinguish that the useage given is based on nationality, in an attempt to paper over the cracks this information was removed. This is highly misleading, and gives the impresion that the stated meaning is used globaly.
Third, deliberatly taking a POV on a perceptual matter to represent it as the 'correct' one is not a good thing. It would be unnacceptable to write an article saying 'Some people say that licorice isnt as nice as chocolate, but this article will assume it is'.
After discussing this with Admin and on #wikipedia, I'm going to strongly advise that this article is split into Electrical and Electronic sections, and turned into two articles on Electronic Engineering and Electrical Engineering. With both articles clearly stating in the summary that the North American useage of the term 'Electrical Engineering' includes 'Electronic Engineering'. I'd rather not do this myself as I am not sufficently an expert in the field to ensure I do not lose context in the process.
The only alternative I can see is to have Electrical Engineering replaced with a disambguation page pointing to different pages per nationality. This is not something I think would be the best solution, nor do I think the 'Electronic and Electrical Engineering' article solution is a good one, but if there isnt going to be an agreement on how the phrase should be handled, then I can't see any other solution than disambiguation. --Barberio 02:04, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Do not take precipitous action the very instant an article exceeds 32K. There is no need for haste. Discuss the overall topic structure with other editors. Determine whether the topic should be treated as several shorter articles and, if so, how best to organize them.--Light current 02:46, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
User:Cedars four reverts on this tag:
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