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rather she deer ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.13.244.169 (talk) 02:32, 16 February 2007 (UTC).
The question I put: who is referenced as genetic research revelator?
Is it common in 'intuge' research to write so transparently refernces ? To group V position as one ?
I hope this is just an edition error and should be corrected or reverted.
Walter Pohl is the reference. -- Stbalbach 15:03, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know what religion or religions they practiced? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Twslandlord (talk • contribs) 16:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)Twslandlord 16:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
They practiced shamanism, like most steppe nomads ie: Turkic nomads.
Is this article really within the scope of WikiProject Turkey? The article doesn't even mention them, except as part of a citation. I suppose there's no harm; if it attracts more editors, that can only be good, right? Still, I could see a case made for Hungary, or Bulgaria, or say Rome, but... Turkey? Neither does the List of Turkey-related topics mention the Huns. Korossyl 17:10, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
turkish are the grand children of the huns..or we can say relative races.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.176.100.236 (talk) 01:37, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
During 6th century AD, huns (commonly believed to be tribes from the current nothern China) attacked the then Indian king Skandagupta of the Gupta dynasty. Huns lost and went back and did not launch another attack for nearly half a century. However, the second attack seems to have met with greater success than the first one. The second attack hastened the end of Gupta dynasty.
I wonder whether these huns are in any way related to the huns that are under discussion in this article. If anyone can throw more light on this sub-topic it would be good.
hi i m from Pakistan, i belong to Islamabad, my SUB CAST IS HUN, we called hun, name of our village is hun, some our relatives live in other villages near Taxila, these our relatives also called hun, interesting is in taxila history museum there are some hints that there were some conqurers in this area who called THE HUNS, i still wonder, that my cast is HUN, name of my village is HUN, and all our relatives living around taxila are called HUNS, if we are also HUN AND WHAT IS OUR ORIGIN? I m looking some literature about this, at the moment this little information might help to increase knowledge about HUNS in this particular area. KHAN SHABBIR HUN, VILLAGE HUN ISLAMABAD
78.151.173.120 (talk) 12:15, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
your Huns actualy are Hans and has nothing to do neither with Hanz family in Germany nor real Huns or hunters in Eangland. These Huns are Baltic tribes called themselves Gunai/Ganiai or herds drovers. However your family name got this name due to Indo-European origin and are originated from hunters78.151.173.120 (talk) 12:15, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
From the article: "The Huns were Turanian/Mongoloid in appearance according to Roman writers." I removed this because do we know that the Romans knew what a Mongoloid person looked like? Moreover, Turanian is not an anthropological type. --Stacey Doljack Borsody 15:48, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Furthermore, I think this line can also be removed from the intro:
The only extant description of Attila's appearance is that of Priscus: "short of stature, with a broad chest and a large head; his eyes were small, his beard thin and sprinkled with gray; and he had a flat nose and a swarthy complexion, showing the evidences of his origin."
It describes Attila, not the Huns in general and sticks out rather superfluously. I think this info can be incorporated another way into the article though. --Stacey Doljack Borsody 19:38, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
78.151.173.120 (talk) 12:20, 28 March 2008 (UTC)Turanians only indicates that these people were Balts, cause 'Tauras' is an ancient extinct animal similar to cow which lived at these times in Lithuania and was bigger than a bison.78.151.173.120 (talk) 12:20, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
In the text of this article, under the heading “European Huns”, 2nd paragraph, 3rd line, the sentence “by using superior weaponry such as the Hun bow” drew my attention. So I clicked, only to find, hocus-pocus!, that a completely different page “Composite bow” opened wide to show a weapon whose invention seems to lie dark in the night of times, much before the Huns left their first traces on the face of the Earth.
So as to fix this, I tried to simply substitute the link Composite bow for Hun bow here, perhaps eventually detailing that the Huns made some important development of the composite bow (but not properly its invention, according to the same article “Composite bow”). As “Huns” is now protected, I obviously could not. But I suggest this to be done. Or something like this, if there has been any link forgering here (beware that I say “if “, please).
I must recognize the possibility that the Huns did in fact invent a new type of bow, but if this were the case all this stuff is getting wrong from the very beginning. For example, there should be an individual article entitled “Hun bow”, duly referenced like the already existing Korean bow and Mongol bow.
Cheers, Zack Holly Venturi 20:25, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Only just noticed this bit, but I hope that all is now clear in the article on Composite bow. The Hunnic invasions of Europe coincide approximately with the use of grip laths in the handles of composite bows. In other respects the bows were not obviously different and in particular I've never heard of any serious evidence that the newer bows were any better as weapons. Richard Keatinge (talk) 15:12, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
I corrected the Britannica and Columbia Encyclopedia reference about the White Huns. The discussion on White Huns should go to the White Huns article as already stated in the article. Regards. E104421 01:33, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm very interested in what's the source for these statements:
In the west, Ostrogoths came in contact with the Huns in AD 358 ... The Romans invited the Huns east of Ukraine to settle Pannonia in 361, and in 372 they pushed west led by their king Balimir, and defeated the Alans.
Where do these seemingly precise dates come from? Also I've not seen elsewhere that the Romans should've had contact with the Huns as early as 361. (Peter Heather also consider Balamber/Balamir only attested from Jordanes to be identical of the 5th century Gothic king Valamer. Fornadan (t) 18:48, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
White Huns were Iranian (Aryan Caucasian) Huns. Asian Huns were Yenisseyan People with Germanians and Sarmatians. Asian Huns were NOT Turks. About origin of Huns see Michael Schmauder: http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/31/0,1872,2137247,00.html
The recent archaelogical findings in Mongolia gave evidence to the old Chinese historical record that the Huns were a mostly Mongoloid people with some Tocharian allies. Huns and ancestors of Turkic people lived side-by-side for few hundred years, and they were not the same people. They were like Iranian people with Tocharian people, related but not the same.
Karolus —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.128.252.142 (talk) 10:32, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
--218.20.118.252 (talk) 20:16, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
ancient dna tells tales from the grave
by nancy touchette
july 25, 2003
dna from a 2,000-year-old burial site in mongolia has revealed new information about the xiongnu, a nomadic tribe that once reigned in central asia. researchers in france studied dna from more than 62 skeletons to reconstruct the history and social organization of a long-forgotten culture.
ancient grave in the egyin gol necropolis. courtesy e. crubezy, université paul sabatier, toulouse, france
the researchers found that interbreeding between europeans and asians occurred much earlier than previously thought. they also found dna sequences similar to those in present-day turks, supporting the idea that some of the turkish people originated in mongolia.
the research also provides glimpses into the xiongnu culture. elaborate burials were reserved for the elite members of society, who were often buried with sacrificial animals and humans at the time of burial. and relatives were often buried next to each other.
this is the first time that a complete view of the social organization of an ancient cemetery based on genetic data was obtained, says christine keyser-tracqui of the ınstitut de médecine légale in strasbourg, france. ıt also helps us understand the history of contacts between the asiatic and european populations more than 2,000 years ago.
the necropolis, or burial site, was discovered in 1943 by a joint mongolian-russian expedition in a region known as the egyin gol valley of mongolia. skeletons in the site were well preserved because of the dry, cold climate. the researchers estimated that the site was used from the 3rd century b.c. to the 2nd century a.d.
the researchers were able to figure out how various skeletons may have been related by analyzing three different types of dna. they used mitochondrial dna, which is inherited only from the mother, y-chromosome dna, which is passed from father to son, and autosomal dna (that is, everything but the x and y chromosomes), which is inherited from both mother and father.
most scientists had previously thought that people from asia mixed with europeans sometime after the 13th century, when ghengis khan conquered most of asia and parts of the persian empire. however, keyser-tracqui and her coworkers detected dna sequences from europeans in the xiongnu skeletons.
this suggests that interbreeding between the european and asian people in this part of the world occurred before the rise of the xiongnu culture, says keyser-tracqui.
the oldest section of the burial site contained many double graves. this may reflect the ancient practice of sacrificing and burying a concubine of the deceased along with horses and other animals. this practice, reserved for the more privileged members of society, was apparently abandoned later sections of burial site revealed no double graves.
the most recent sector of the necropolis contained only the remains of related males, a burial grouping that had never been seen before.
skeletons from the most recent graves also contained dna sequences similar to those in people from present-day turkey. this supports other studies indicating that turkish tribes originated at least in part in mongolia at the end of the xiongnu period
© 2003 american journal of genetics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/xiongnu
Did they disolve amongst the European farmers, as the Dutch version of this article says? Did they go back eastwards? Where they all killed? Or a combination? Are there ANY archologic evidences of their presence in (Western) Europe? Would like to read a decent article about this, as i never seen any of this. Theyre all too vague...--N33 (talk) 08:12, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
All but magyars of course.
Only Western or European Huns dissolved. Asian Huns continued as various Turkic peoples.78.191.88.172 (talk) 13:13, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
After Attila's death, some of the Huns settled in Europe/Western Asia, however others attempted to continue his dream of attacking China and spread Eastwards towards the great wall, with little semblance of being a unified nation. By the time they reached China they were too weak and divided to mount a serious attack and thus separated into many smaller, family based tribes. The people that spread Eastwards would soon dissolve their culture with that of the few nomadic Mongol people (Who were also known as Hsiung-Nu) be the Chinese and eventually be united again under Genghis Khan as the Mongols —Preceding unsigned comment added by Simpson3883 (talk • contribs) 09:46, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Orkh is claiming that there were Finnic Huns aka Huns speaking Finnic languages. While there is some 19th and early 20th century stories about that, they are not to be taken seriously. "Finnics as aboriginals of Rome", hah. Unless someone finds reliable and recent information about how Finnics would have wandered to Asia and joined the Huns, I think mention about Finnics should be removed.
I don't want to cross 3RR, so somebody having post-ww2 knowledge about the matter should take care of that.
Wikinist (talk) 20:22, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
theres two .pdf in these pages, those are from from "the new york times"; -http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9E0CE7DB153BE233A25752C2A9679D946496D6CF -http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9F07E7DE1139EF34BC4E52DFB266838F669FDE
click the "view full article" button and open the pdf. these articles about northern Turanian tribes called Finno-Ugrics. and yes Finns were also in that confederation. it shouldnt be a surprise because theres not so many nation living in early Hunnic lands.--Orkh (talk) 18:32, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
and i forget, here is the map of distribition of Finnic people. i didnt know they are still living in South Ural Mountains. so dear Wikinist, you should be more polite and calm i think. respects.--Orkh (talk) 18:50, 1 January 2008 (UTC) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_peoples
Indeed. You know your sources are far too old, still pushing disinformation based to just them. I would be proud if my ancestors were some ultimate Hunnic super-warriors you so admire, but that's not the truth. Or maybe I should put a note on blacks that they are inferior, since same era sources "prove" that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sources#Reliable_sources:
"Tiny-minority views and fringe theories need not be included, except in articles devoted to them."
And that's what your "Turanian" point of view nowadays is. You should:
a) Create an article about how history was written a hundred years ago, or
b) make a "Turanian" wiki with fellow believers.
And a Happy New Year! (There's the politity part)
Wikinist (talk) 19:55, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
second source about Finnic Nomads. http://www.imninalu.net/Huns.htm what do you want from page dear "Wikinist"? i think you want to show your stupid pan-aryan face, but you are at the wrong page. you may stop me, but you cant stop sources. --Orkh (talk) 02:10, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Descendants of the Hurrites are credited as the founders of the Central Asian kingdom of Khwarezm, which is considered by some scholars as the original land of the Finnic and Altaic peoples, and that is in some way related to the Székely, one of the Hungarian tribes that will be mentioned later in this chapter.
and
Their heritage has been transferred to many Eurasian peoples, including the Uyghurs of Western China and several Turkic and Ugro-Finnic tribes.
I'm sorry, Orkh, but "Finno-Ugric" or "Ugro-Finnic" is not the same thing as a "Finnic" tribe. Neither is Khwarezm a "confederation of steppe warriors". --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 02:48, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Sbordosy claim that iranians were the part of huns. the term "iranian" is not so old, and being saka or alan is not the same of being iranian, as being hun is not the same as being turkish. so iranian part in identity should be remove i think.--Orkh (talk) 02:03, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Let's review the disputed sentence yet again. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 02:09, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Recent genetic research shows that each of the great confederations of steppe warriors were not ethnically homogeneous, but rather unions of multiple ethnicities that could have been Turkic, Tungusic, Mongolic, Finno-Ugric, Iranic, etc.
Removing "Iranic" to a separate sentence and adding "Ural-Altaic" absolutely does not work because the evidence does not support this claim. There are two main logic problems with it:
And there is a third logic problem with it related to paragraph integrity:
--Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 15:32, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
I have seen this before. Fundamentalists like him do anything to get their fringe-theories shown. They have so strong beliefs that they deny all counter-evidences, even if they would outweight their belief in superior manner. It's basically just same with holocaust deniers, fundamentalist christians/islamists, extreme left, etc. They want to say holocaust/gulag/evolution theory/all the history from past 50 years is false propaganda by an evil organisation. It's really sad that there are peoples honestly believing that way, but that's how strongly adopted information sticks, even if incorrect.
Too often has "consensus" been made between scientific consensus and fringe-theories. This is one fault with wiki-format.
Finnics were connected to Huns in order to make them inferior, but this individual is using the same formula to make them superior, Turanian overmen. That is almost cute, but not cute enough to be put in Wikipedia.
Err, "dear Wikinist, you should be more polite and calm", yet he also enlightens us by saying
"your stupid pan-aryan face"
(personal attacks redacted)
Wow... I mean... this is too great. It's just... wow.
Wikinist (talk) 10:27, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
ok, but i cant find any source about Iranic identity found in Hungary, or somewhere else...--Orkh (talk) 18:00, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
in my sources, there are not any evidence about Iranian/Persian existence in the great hunnic empire. so, Sbordosy where are your sources. and wikinist if there were not Finno-Ugric living in the empire so where were these people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finno-Ugric_peoples come from. so why dont we create a new empire, that iranians live and finno-ugrics out. we may call it Wikinist empire or something like that? i think its a good idea, but please live the page in peace--Orkh (talk) 20:29, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
by the way, wikinist still claiming about finno-ugric is a "linguistic" not racial. but sources says: Finnic tribes were living in north Hunnic empire and todays south Ural mountain. by the way being finno-ugric is more racial than being Uralic.--Orkh (talk) 20:45, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
It is ridiculous, this has been going on since December 27th. Where is everyone? I'm asking for RfC on this issue because of the length of time. I've never asked for RfC before so hopefully I'm doing this correctly. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 21:18, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
This RfC is regarding a single sentence that illustrates the possible ethnic composition of the Huns. There has been a revert war going on regarding this single sentence since December 27th. This is far too long. The dispute revolves around a single sentence in Huns#Origin_and_identity which has served as a front for other revert wars in the past. Which version of the sentence should be used or rather is the sentence about the Huns or not?
The modern opinion[7] is that each of the large confederations of steppe warriors (such as the Scythians, Xiongnu, Huns, Avars, Khazars, Cumans, Mongols, etc.) were not ethnically homogeneous, but rather unions of multiple ethnicities such as Turkic, Tungusic, Ugric, Iranic, and Mongolic peoples.
Or
A genetic research[7] states that each of the large confederations of steppe warriors were not ethnically homogeneous, but rather unions of multiple ethnicities of Uralic and Altaic clans such as Turkic, Tungusic, Finnic, Ugric and Mongolic peoples.
I'm trying to decrease time used to this, so I just quote myself:
Core of this is about Finnics' role, which I haven't seen being present in any proper source. Also, Orkh rejects sources saying Indo-European Iranics might have something to do with steppe warriors.
I don't really like using time to this, but I think claims like that makes Wikipedia a joke. If I just saw modern and trustfull experts with authority addressing those things, knowing it's probably true, I could throw this matter into a trash can and go sleep.
Wikinist (talk) 23:21, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I only revert "Origins and Identity" part of the page. and ive never called any race as "devil" or something like that. Wikinist has personal problems with me. as you see above, after my sources, he changed his opinion interestingly. as he claimed before, there were no Finnic people living in the Hunnic Empire, but now he talk about the existence of Finnic slaves. (the sources show that Finic people were one of the the main power in the empire). by the way, you see at the top, (last years event) Sbordosy also claimed that there were no Turks living in the empire. but after Hakozen showed the sources the page become completely different. Sbordosy was also played a big role of Hakozen's ban. so, admins must be careful about blocks. truths are punishing in here.--Orkh (talk) 16:26, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
"but now he talk about the existence of Finnic slaves", I said Slavs. Some Mordvics might well have co-operated with Huns like some Indo-Europeans did. Still, calling them "steppe riders" seems out of place.
Wikinist (talk) 23:44, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Flat Earth Society? but new york times doesnt say so ; -http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9E0CE7DB153BE233A25752C2A9679D946496D6CF -http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9F07E7DE1139EF34BC4E52DFB266838F669FDE
by the way, i dont want you to go turania.com, because im not sure about their hospitality for who may claim Finns are the descends of socrates or alfred nobel. its more healty for you to stay at home and watching finnish sci-fiction movies. but please dont forget to visit here because in other sites you cant find anybody who claims non Turk hunnic empire or maybe non italian roman empire --Orkh (talk) 00:38, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
The main issue with this article is that it states (briefly) Huns were PROBABLY of Turkic origin, however, we have to face the fact that WE DO NOT KNOW for sure. So putting this to "WikiProject Turkey" is not corresponding to science.
I have information that in Armenia they have found a Hunnic writing, it is now under investigation if it is genuine. It is not Turkish.
So please, with respect to all Turkish people, (especially to those extreme-nationalists), remove this article from this Project. Abdulka (talk) 21:43, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
--Xiaogoudelaohu (talk) 12:33, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
What's the relation between Huns and Hans (Chinese)? They both are spelled the same way, aren't they? Bennylin (talk) 04:00, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Something to think on
"Cebimde elma var" do any Hungarian friend understand this Türkish sentence that means i have apple in my pocket —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tolga-temur (talk • contribs) 18:03, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
This article doesn't even tell what happened to the Huns or if there are any still around.--4.244.33.80 (talk) 02:52, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
Can there be a semantic error in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brsh (talk • contribs) 17:48, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
OF COURSE HUNS(MAGYARS) WERE TOTALLY FULL OF TURKS, BUT PAN-ARYANS AND ULTRA-CHRISTIANS ARE CONVERTED THEM TO A NEW NATION CALLED HUNGARIANS. AND EVERYBODY BELIEVE THAT STORY. EVEN MANY WIKI ADMINS ALSO SUPPORT THIS FASCHIST IDEA. ALSO MANY EUROPEANS ARE STILL FASCIST AND EXTRIMIST CHRISTIANS. PAPA WOULD BE MORE FAIR THEN THESE STUPID ARYANS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.174.9.35 (talk) 22:11, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
The German/Hun connection concerning WWI is plain wrong. The link to Wilhelm II shows his speech during the Boxer Rebellion, where he said: "Just as the Huns under their king Etzel created for themselves a thousand years ago a name which men still respect, you should give the name of German such cause to be remembered in China for a thousand years ..." [2] Since he compared the German soldiers himself to the Huns, the name stuck in WW I. It has nothing to do with the pickelhaube which has no hunnish connection whatsoever, nor with the belt buckle of the German soldiers. Since the article is incorrect, please change it.Ultraferret (talk) 14:33, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Latebird, I understand your point when reverting. I do not accept to revert the complete edit. You could have "soften" maybe the edit by informing it is THEORY, yes, it's true. The citations are from various sources which I have collected, and which are not publicly "adverted" or cited in the popular books. This is not cherry picking sorry, as the original Latin text is also cited! Abdulka (talk) 07:55, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi. Good day. Pls explain why try to destruct works based on referenced, scientific data, all the time? I remember it was You, who deleted my addition to the Xiongnu article too, regards the Bulg. king list, sourced from O. Pritsak, who was a professor of 3 universities, incl. Harvard University. And now in the case of Hun article, you deleting data regarding more that a thousand years old traditions, and quotes based on 800 years old historical sources and works of acclaimed historians? So we can maybe make a consensus. Thx. Yours sincerely Dzsoker (talk) 13:48, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for communicating. I hope that in the Hun article I left the Hungarian traditions where they belong, that is among mediaeval and later stories, and at the relevant length for a historical article, that is, rather short. I suppose the contemporary analogy within my own nationalist traditions would be King Arthur, but I wouldn't state mediaeval traditions as fact in that article either. The sources are indeed old, but they are about seven centuries after the actual events, and they are at best very dubious sources. I did leave links to articles on the manuscripts you mention. And the Xiongnu material belongs, if anywhere, in the article of that name. It is also very verbose and full of detail, personal names and so on, which does not belong in an encyclopedia.
Would you like to start an article on Hungarian traditions of national origin? This might be an appropriate place for them to be discussed at length.
Rather than simply revert your edits, I will copy this to the [Talk:Huns] discussion page and we will hope for a consensus of opinion. Richard Keatinge (talk) 18:11, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Hi. I thanx too. Ok, It's a good idea to discuss it on Hun talk page. But I've written those stuff, because those are the Huns' and Attila's effects on events centuries later (like in the case of Charlemagne Avar campaign revenge for Attila, and Hungarians reaction to this), and relevant events that help to make sense some of the European historical events, and if not of Hungary's traditions relevant on Huns, who else?? And the other thing, those were not just trads, these were based on all opinions of the nations of that age of 9-10th centuries, as we can see in German, Italic, Frank, Hungarian, Slav, Greek chronicles, only I hadn't the time to contribute that informations also. I hoped someone will, but instead all my work was deleted without a single disproof.:( Anyway in a couple of days I'll scribe that sources and quotes, in a few more sentences, to the article, the data of: Annales Fuldenses, Annales Alemannici, Liutprand's Antapodosis, Regino of Prüm's chronicle, the mentioned Gesta Hunnorums, Nestor's chronicles, Constantine's De Administrando Imperioso, his father's: Tactics, and so on. I think it will be good one then. Dzsoker (talk) 19:10, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I really don't think that any of those things belong in the Hun article. In articles about Hungarian history, traditions, modern myths, or prehistory, maybe wider European traditions relating to the Huns, but not, at any significant length, under Huns. Opinions please... Richard Keatinge (talk) 20:40, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. Look, I wrote these after I read in this talk page, After Attila they just disappeared in no time??, what happaned to them?? So I responded this with writing a new section of about some sentences related to their after story, since the article hasn't any words on it. And I think it is very important, moreover the most important thing in Hunnic and European history, the Migration Period, and the afterwards. As one Chinese research said: "The Huns played an important role in the world history, especially in the shaping of the European nationalities and the development of European history,", Lin Gan, a professor specializing in the study of Huns at the Inner Mongolian University. So I thought it deserves a few words what happened to them, its not at significant length. Futhermore what happened with Attila's lands and empire, after it collapsed is belongs to here too. But in another opinion: Wikipeida, is an online encylopedia, not a lexicon, so it can (I think: must) be extensive, if not exhaustive on any issue. (And on wiki there are articles that ten times longer than this. You should contribute to , and not delete from it, I think. Dzsoker (talk) 21:28, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
A few more things: "The sources are indeed old, ... and they are at best very dubious sources." Ok maybe they are (there are some errors in them, but noting, that they were chroniclers of the kings of Hungary, and I think kings knew who they were), that's why I mentioned many more (all are from independent to the previous and these are from the 5-10th centuries, so much closer to the actual events). And I've tried to bring forward the dark and fearful mood and memory of this era and nation. My few futher additions will be at the exact point, regarding the 3-6th centuries period. Dzsoker (talk) 21:51, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Indeed, what happened to them? The point is that we don't know. Presumably the people formed parts of new groups under new names, but the sources that describe this are not contemporary, nor even close; even at the time they were written down, they were national myths not history, and they are covered in other articles.
As for the Xiongnu, their connection with European Huns is a fair guess, but not certain, and they have their own article. That article needs a much-abbreviated bit about the current Chinese project (which is interesting, thanks). This article doesn't. Richard Keatinge (talk) 10:33, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
"Most of the new stuff he's added to the article is actually about the Xiongnu." I've only added Xiongnu material where it belongs: in the relations to the origins of Huns: their ancestors and Origin and identity section. For example, it's interesting to see, that the indication of Huns being of Turkic origin (thus a much later ethnical group of the 6th century, so completely illogical, and what theory was always mentioned in the publications as a possibilty and was never proven but disputed from the very beginning among scholars) doesn't get even one sentence of criticism, but mentioning the Xiongnu origin (which only the Chinese writing (in English) of the word Hun, for example Hungary in English is Xiongyali in Chinese (Xiongs' country)) and their connection to the Huns what is contained in every scientific works from the past decades and perfectly logical, got such negative opposite reacting. Anyway, I shall continue to tend myself to (as I did in the past) not writing any of my own conclusions but sticking to the guidelines of Wikipedia:Sources and mentoining only University and Academic level material (not just 19th century level fossilized views) on the scientific theories, and focusing on content: See Wikipedia:Resolving_disputes#Focus_on_content "Wikipedia is built upon the principle of representing views fairly, proportionately and without bias.", that's what I do: I leave the original, older views and theories (even when I know it is already a complete nonsense and wrong and unscientific, and became disproofed (there are many in the articles) in academic world but I don't want to participate in heavy controversy) and proportionately extending them with the new informations from the Univeristy press material. So if you disagree and challenge one or other statement and have sources supporting your view you sould put tags like disputed or whatever and adding the new text based on your source to the article too. It's the way to improve it and of resolving disputes Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. Anyway, I'm standing up looking forward your explanations and contributions. After all, we all know that the Earth is flat, don't we? I don't think so. kind regards Dzsoker (talk) 22:09, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
You may be looking for the phrase [Language isolate]]? Or for one of those ideas that link a wide variety of languages such as Nostratic languages?Richard Keatinge (talk) 18:20, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
But on the other thing. You should not wait to work on the article, I think. The next thing I invented to do is handling with the extending their antropology, origin, and archaeology data (so not on a big scale) that I've already tried to start, but little later with small additions in a time of about a couple of weeks and months, not momentarily, so I again propose you not wait for it. P.S. on the thing "The link between the two groups is mostly theoretical and based upon slim data." You may read after it, I'v read that this theory has become accepted almost universally among the researchers and scholars. so standing by Dzsoker (talk) 01:32, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
Thanks Dzsoker for the invitation to comment on your hard work. You may note that I have tried to improve the style in many areas, and I hope that those edits at least meet with your approval. I have also removed the bit about Xiongnu entirely; even if everything in it is correct I am confident it belongs in the Xiongnu article, and there only.
You may be less pleased with my removal, or reclassification under Traditions or Successor nations, the various bold assertions about Hungarians being Hunnic in some sense, and the "history" that is produced to support this idea. The sources were inadequate and to the extent that they exist appear to be supporting a mythologised version of Hungarian history. For example, I don't know where you got the ideas about Attila's well-organized taxation system from, and of course he must have had some transfer of resources analogous to taxation even before he started robbing the Romans, but I don't think that any good secondary sources support your idea. That may be what Ftjrwrites complains about, below. The sources that might possibly have supported some of the assertions acceptably were in Hungarian, of which I don't know a single word, and as this is the English Wikipedia we would do well to stick to the scholarly consensus expressed in English. That is, as pointed out, that we can only make reasonable guesses about Hunnic language and origins, that the Hunnic empire broke up rather quickly, and that their cultural and genetic influence was soon dispersed.
Before making grand statements, perhaps we should consider definitions. What is the definition of a Hun to begin with? Would we include only the prestigious clans, or all their subject peoples and allies? At the time of Attila's death, or at some other point, or over a period? How would we tell the difference between "Hunnic" and "Scythian" culture, with similar lifestyles, or how assign a given group to one name or the other, or to both? What would count as cultural continuity from "the Huns" and how would it be evidenced? What about genetic continuity? Or political?
I hope this helps. Perhaps we could all discuss this particular edit for a couple of days and try to come to a consensus before we do any more editing? If no consensus emerges, we can take it to a RfC.Richard Keatinge (talk) 18:20, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
There was never a "Hun Empire." :)) What can I say to this level of discussion. The claims about its size and great organization are patently absurd. The "latest scientific discoveries" language is a cover for a substandard fringe source. Ftjrwrites (talk) 20:13, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Dzsoker, I recommend that you don't use the OBRUSÁNSZKY Borbála source. It won't stand up to source criticism. It is published in a newsletter targeted at Magyar expats in Holland. The article reads like someone's term paper ("flagium dei?!") and doesn't even include a bibliography. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 18:06, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
I look forward to reputable mainstream sources. In the meantime I have reverted to my edit earlier today, not because I think it's the best possible version but because I would like to get some consensus on whether it's an improvement on the previous one. We will see. Richard Keatinge (talk) 20:29, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
P.s. Sborsody, borsody sounds like Hungarian or Slovakian, are you connected to or speaking any? Dzsoker (talk) 21:36, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
ok, I think over it, and will react. will not revert it, but on my last edit, it is nothing to do with the source thing. But read my last edition on the source mentoined, and cited in Turkic theory section. It was written that Otto Maenchen-Helfen's research supports it. I've read this source, and it supports just the opposite, so I arranged it to a new section, read it before you delete.
Other theories
The Turkic theory of Hunnic language, that appeared in 19th century was debated from the very beginnig and is far from solution. A good summary of this comes from the words of Otto Maenchen-Helfen:
"Few scholars would care to risk their reputation in taking on the monumental task of straightening out misconceptions about the Huns. Hatred and fear distorted the picture of the Huns from the moment they appeared on the lower Danube. Unless this tendentiousness is fully understood — and it rarely is — the literary evidence is bound to be misread. The present study begins, therefore, with its reexamination... All we know of the language of the Huns are names. Our sources do not give the meaning of any of them... Only by a careful study of the literary context in which the names appear can we hope to bring the problem of the Hunnish language closer to its solution. Attempts to force all Hunnic names into one linguistic group are a priori doomed to failure. In addition to the objective difficulties, subjective ones bedevil some scholars. Turkologists are likely to find Turks everywhere; convinced that all proto-Bulgarians spoke Turkish, Németh offered an attractive Turkish etymology of Asparuch; other Turkologists explained the name in a different, perhaps less convincing way. Now it has turned out that Asparuch is an Iranian name... Scholars of profound erudition were sometimes biased by Pan-Turkism... These names have been studied for more than a century and a half... The thesis that the Huns spoke a Turkish language has a long history behind it... The formal analysis of Turkish-sounding Hunnic names requires utmost caution...", but all we can say "The number of Hun names which are certainly or most probably Turkish is small." Where it is supports that the language of the Huns are Turkic, it stands that "The number of Hun names which are certainly or most probably Turkish is small". So it stands the opposite. And the bias of the past 150 years of reserach, by hate on one-, a pan-turkism on the other side, should be noted as well, I think.
and on the sentence: "Some recent linguistic studies connecting their language to that of the Xiongnu, suggesting there was an isolate, autonomous Hunnic language". Wiki quidelines writes that the so-called protoscience (meaning new theories of established professors), if it is published in university press material, sources can be presented, but not so long, and its based on essays coming from Inner Mongolia University Press, Hohhot, and Eotvos Lorand University, Budapest, so I think it deserves one sentence. And the Xiongnu ancestry link, it links to the Norther Xiongnu became the Huns section of the Xiongnu article, I think this should be left in the article too. Again on the thing before this: I'll not revert but think over and get back to it, goodbye till Dzsoker (talk) 21:03, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
P.s. on the Hungarian sources thing you were right, I have tons of it, mainly on Hunnic archaeology, and on artefacts from all over in Hungary in local museums' publications (maybe I will translate them), but I also waiting for publications in English. Dzsoker (talk) 21:15, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
Revision for encyclopedic style and omitting hyperbole and nationalistic ideas, or irresponsible removal of large amounts of valuable and referenced work? Editors cannot agree, please comment on this diff: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Huns&diff=257284072&oldid=257168717
Dzsoker, changing my text is not appropriate behaviour. Please avoid doing this in future.
You may want to know that I have no interest in any form of nationalism in relation to this article. The talk page already contains multiple comments from people who want to claim the Huns as Turks, Balts, and Hungarians on a more or less dubious basis; all I want is encyclopedic style and good use of evidence. Richard Keatinge (talk) 12:18, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
I know, that changing text is not appropriate behaviour, but those you are basing your side on are lies.
And I think you are a disruptive editor, only deleting all times.
And if you are not interested why did also remove the dubious tag from the article.
You even don't read the sources, nor provide any, don't take the disscussions of the others into consideration at all, not contribute anything useful to tha article, just pushing your mantra again and again and deleting. For i.e my contribution with the recent research on the Xiongnu article was there for almost a year, not disturbs anyone, until you just deleted with some nonsense POV of yours on what Wiki should be.
And in case of that article, was exactly me who made the article neutral from pan-whatever pushing when to my request of admin help it became protected. (You can see it here too, I put the Turkic or Xiongnu phrase, and in five minutes it was next to it: possible Turkic too.)
So on your deleting thing, I think exactly the opposite. If I'd like a short article on something, I got to the British lexikon from the shelf instead, not Wikipedia. Rather I'd like to see as many views as possible (this is a goal of Wikipedia, I suppose. See the guidelines), if those were published in university like material. and finally I am totally not interested in what you're thinking about your "encyclopediating" or whatever deleting and shortening behavior. It particularly disrupts me for example. And with this type of work you go against wikipedia policy: see Wikipedia:Disruptive_editing "Editors often post minority views to articles. This fits within Wikipedia's mission so long as the contributions are verifiable and do not give undue weight." and "Verifiable and noteworthy viewpoints include protoscience as published through reputable peer-reviewed journals. Editors may reasonably present active public disputes or controversies which are documented by reliable sources." That's excactly what I've included into the Xiongnu and into this article: the most up-to-date data of pure science informations on active public international results of the recent researches, but with not deleting any othe views, what I've also mentioned above days ago, seem for nothing. So to summarize, you are ruining the main goal of Wikipedia, and make it worser not better, I think. so not regards Dzsoker (talk) 14:24, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
p.s. And what can I do when the researchers come up with such scientific results. I am not written any word of POV, just quoted professors of Universities. Dzsoker (talk) 14:24, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
From the edit:
These are quite exceptional claims. Exceptional claims require exceptional sources. www.china.org.cn quoting some unknown professor is far from an exceptional source. The Roman Empire collapsed for many reasons. The Huns were just one of them. Additionally, words like "great" and "dreaded" are POV and hyperbole. They don't have a place in the article. As for the rest of the editing conflict that is going on, I've been trying to verify the sources Dzsoker is using. One of them is available online from a newsletter for Hungarian expats in Holland, which in the same issue has published other fringe theory stuff like about Hungarian-Sumerian language connections. This aspect of it makes verifying the credibility difficult. I'd prefer to see such sources published in the appropriate international trade journals where they may obtain the benefit of proper peer-review. Anyone can write a paper at University or publish a book. That doesn't make source criticism any easier. It seems that these sources Dzsoker is using are just too new (2007). I think it entirely appropriate to let these sources age a bit before use on Wikipedia. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 16:57, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
I think another thing I should mention, I felt there's too much Xiongnu stuff Dzsoker was adding to this article. Sure, I agree that Dzsoker has mostly only added it in the article in appropriate places, but I still feel it was too verbose. It is enough to make mention of scholarly controversy and the different origin theories without going into details of the controversy. Please see above where I gave an example of this on the Hungarian Prehistory article and the subject of the Transylvanian population at the time of Honfoglalas. Additionally, Wikipedia maintains separate Xiongnu and Hun articles. This is no different from maintaining separate Kalmyk, Mongol, Xianbei and Donghu articles, or Tingling and Tuvan articles, or even Swedes, Norwegians, and Norsemen. There are significant differences between the groups even though there's a scholarly recognition of succession or continuity. It wouldn't do the Kalmyk article any good if someone started adding Donghu information to it. I see this situation as similar. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 19:14, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
I noticed last night something very humorous to me. While doing some copyediting I realized that the History section, which should be the main meat of this article, is written more like a mere afterthought. Most editors appear to focus so much on Hun origins and other peripheral issues and properly cite sources while the main narrative remains as a relatively small little section. I'll try to get some improvement going from my copy of E.A. Thompson "The Huns"... --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 17:14, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
Go for it! As you say this is what this article needs. My impression is that there is disappointingly little information, as almost nothing written by the steppe cultures has survived, and their neighbours mention them mainly as enemies. Let's use what is available. Richard Keatinge (talk) 17:46, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
I think it is simply inappropriate to relate Huns to Turkic for the reason stated by dzsoker - Turkic is later ethnic group.perhaps referto as a possible proto-Turkic link . —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mooknomad (talk • contribs) 18:55, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
First, what kind of people the Xiongnu were is not the topic of this article. Historians discuss about a dozen different possibilities of their ancestry and relationships, and none of them are even remotely proven. There is no justification to specifically emphasize in this article that they "might have ben turkic". Doing so gives undue weight to that minority view. Just because they happen to be mentioned in the same sentence as turkic peoples doesn't change anything about that. --Latebird (talk) 18:42, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
Let's look at what this line is saying. "They possibly had a Turkic or a Xiongnu core of aristocracy." It does not say that the Huns were Turkic or Xiongnu but that these were characteristics of their ruling class. So sources need to support this properly. The Pictish Sourcebook is out. Notwithstanding the laughable idea that it is a valid reference text on the subject of the Huns, it contains a single line saying "Turkic-speaking nomads from Asia". It says nothing about the Hunnic ruling class. The other sources need to be evaluated similarly. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 19:22, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
I think there's a semantic misunderstanding here. Don't you think that "ruling class" was Huns themselves and that the rest were conquered/subjugated client tribes?
A possible suggestion. It may be the best if we make a note in the opening paragraph to the Xiongnu, like: They possibly descended from the Xiongnu., because it is an important and the most significant viewpoint, referring with the original source of Joseph de Guignes, let the Turkic debate to that article, and anyway we can't mention such name on them what didn't even exist in Hun's age, but appeared first time in the Chinese sources after 542 AD, and since the language paragraph also begins with the Turkic theory. I put that sentence and we will see. Dzsoker (talk) 02:09, 31 December 2008 (UTC)