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I think Douglas Rushkoff's definition of Jewish iconoclasm ought to be integrated into this explaination, whereas iconoclasm is an integral part of Jewish theology, the act of which (on forefather Abraham's part) was the defining moment that gave rise to Jewish monotheism. -- Mobius1
I was going to write in Christo-Islamic tradition that Iconoclasm was an influence of Islam in Eastern Orthodoxy, but I read here that Iconoclasm happened outside of Islamic rule. Did Islamic theology have some influence in Byzantine Iconoclasm? And the reverse?
Just wondering if the following article is relevant to this topic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban#Buddhas_of_Bamiyan
Many of the original artwork destroyed in Europe during the Iconoclasm Period were images of the original depictions of Mary and Christ. The Orthodox had Images of 'semi-Africans' The artists were not fully sure of what african features were, besides dark skin and curly black hair, thus the paintings and coins had european shaped faces with dark skin and curly black hair. Western Europe destroyed these original depictions. In Russia, the images survived destruction. This link shows a range of artwork from the times. [1] http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/icons/misc_in.html Or just search for Orthodox artwork. There are tons of sites, and the artwork is for sale in some places.
Attempted revisions:
Germanos, the iconodule Patriarch of Constantinople, either resigned or was deposed following the ban, expressing concern that it would undermine the doctrine of the Incarnation. In the Western part of the Byzantine empire, Pope Gregory III held two synods at Rome and condemned Leo's actions, with the result that Leo seized some papal lands. During this initial period concern on the side of the emperor seems to have had little to do with theology and more with practical evidence and effects. Icon veneration was forbidden simply because it was seen as a violation of the biblical commandment forbidding making and venerating images. It also gave some the opportunity to enrich themselves through the confiscation of icons, as evidenced by the Council of Hieria's condemnation of the practice in 754.
Problem: The lack of theological defense was not merely on the side of the emperor at this point.
Problem: Who are the "some"? If you want to say it was Leo, simply do so and back it up with a quoted citation, but avoid given the impression that Leo's opposition to icons was primarily for enriching his coffers, for which there is no evidence. Otherwise that "some" enriched themselves is immaterial.
In a response recalling the later Protestant Reformation, Constantine moved against the monasteries, had relics thrown into the sea, and stopped the invocation of saints. (The "Iconoclastic Council" of 754 anathemetized anyone who "denies the profit of the invocation of Saints" among others.)
Problem: You present it without any point. The real point would be that Constantine apparently held some personal beliefs that went beyond the declaration of the Council of Hieria. Your problem, then, is how to present that in the context of the present article as somehow relevant. It would be very relevant in an article on Constantine, but it seems inserted here merely to "make Constantine look bad." If you can somehow increase its relevancy to the article and back it up with the appropriate quote and citation, it might well be added to the article. At present it is more appropriate to Constantine's personal psychology and a separate article on him.
You also removed a bit of information on how Patriarch Germanos thought that a change of stance would show "the church had erred." You completely changed it to give it a different meaning, rather than adding what you felt was an additional bit of information. It has been returned, and any addition will be considered for future inclusion, but merely replacing it with a quite different statement is something else.
Do not expect me to be so wordy in the future. I do not have the time.
We recommend that a section be created labeled “Iconoclasm during the French Revolution”. It has come to our attention that a number of important events and anti-theological dispositions during the terror have been fundamentally excluded from the present page. We thus would welcome a chance to offer four points of analysis that we believe will contribute to the already informative page you oversee. These points are 1) A more precise description of the transformation of Notre Dame into a Temple of Reason, 2) The removal of fine art with depictions of the former monarchy as divine, as carried out by Revolutionary activist groups during the Terror, 3) Ritual burnings of religious volumes, and their replacement with enlightenment texts in public thought and discourse, and 4) The desecration of the royal tombs. Hercules1794 (talk) 15:49, 29 April 2014 (UTC)Hercules1794Hercules1794 (talk) 15:49, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
Reading it more closely, the extreme view of the iconoclasts, which holds pictoral representation in such high contempt, is explained by contrast:Iconoclasm forbade the making of any image or painting that was intended to represent Jesus or one of the saints.
The point is not quite that image and painting are forbidden. Rather, "if anyone shall represent ... and does not rather represent". The contrast is between two ways of representing the likeness of the saints: by paint (which leaves their virtue unrepresented), or by imitation of their virtuous life. The latter is the tradition received from the apostles, the former is a vain notion introduced by the devil, according to the iconoclasts.If anyone shall endeavour to represent the forms of the Saints in lifeless pictures with material colours which are of no value (for this notion is vain and introduced by the devil), and does not rather represent their virtues as living images in himself, let him be anathema!"
Mark's summary is incorrect. Iconoclasm did not condemn the making of any lifeless image. It condemned the making of images of God, Of Jesus, of the angels and saints for veneration. Secular images were not forbidden, nor was the cross, which was used to replace forbidden images in churches.
I don't know nearly enough to do this, but there really should be a section on (Russian) peasant iconoclasm, as it was such a major part of the history. Nearly every peasant revolt involved destroying "foreign" symbols, which were usually non-reigious things such as glass windows, or mantleplaces. Yes there was sometimes religoius aspects as well, but that was still 'out with the new, in with the old' iconoclasm. Iconoclasm manifested itself even more in the Russian revolution, where lenin had to take drastic measures to protect priceless (bourgeois/european) art, artifacts, symbols from destruction!
In The first iconoclastic period section: 730-787 section:
- In the third paragraph, made clarifications on who participated in the Iconoclast Council and its uncanonical nature. Referring to the Constantine Council as the "Seventh Ecumenical Council" is inaccurate. The Councils were numbered later on, and this one isn't the Seventh EC.
In the Issues in Byzantine Iconoclasm section:
- Removed sentence: "While the arguments of the iconodules were largely based on biblical commands and written Church tradition, John based his arguments on the Neo-Platonist view of the relation between an image and that which it depicts."
This is factually incorrect. Not only does it contradict the next few comments, but St. John Damascene used Biblical and Patristic material in his support of the veneration of images. There's too much material to copy over, but excerpts of his On Holy Images and The Fount of Wisdom can be found here (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/johndam-icons.html). The Patristic support is vastly more supportive of the Iconodule position than the Iconoclast one.
Avraamrii 03:13, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
You may want to investigate that among Spanish Catholics there was a rumor that the Durch Reformers smashed the images of the saints but did not break the images of the devils subjugated by those saints. --Error 18:59, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
See Talk:Aniconism for my reasons against a complete merge. Wesley 05:24, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
In the current version of Islamic iconoclasm there are two out of a total of three paragraphs dealing with the reconversion of non-islamic religious builings into mosques. I don't think they should be in this article since the destructive action is directed against the builing as a whole and not against the images in it. A good example however is the plastering of the floor of the Aya Sophia. -- And yes, no merging with aniconism, these are two distinct topics. / Abjad 03:43, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Not sure where to put this at the moment, but worthy of inclusion IMO: Christian zealots destroy ancient Arctic petroglyphs, Randy Boswell, CanWest News Service, August 26, 2006 http://www.canada.com/reginaleaderpost/news/story.html?id=8abe338f-f3f6-4a2e-a701-082e61411817 Шизомби 07:22, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Turned out to be a fake story. In 2006 Quebec cultural officials claimed there was graffiti and vandalism at the Qajartalik site. Daniel Gendron, archeologist with the Avataq Cultural Institute, who hadn't visited the site or examined the damage, said that it could follow the pattern of previous "attacks" by Christian Inuit in northern Quebec, who are now carving Christian symbols in their traditional holy places. But Kangiqsujuaq's mayor, Mary Pilurtuut, said she hadn't been informed of recent damage at the site and doubted "something religious" would have been involved. "Recently, it's not the case," she said, suggesting that most of the deterioration at the site has been "caused by nature." Further investigatons corroborated this. The damage was most likely done by artifact looting in the 80's. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.173.214.4 (talk) 04:13, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
from the article:
Sorted now Johnbod 18:17, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
My apologies; I had written an explanation here before editing the previous version of this sentence, but seem not to have saved it:
The continuing cultural confrontation with, and military threat from, the inherently "iconoclastic" Islam probably had a bearing on the attitudes of both sides.
Two quibbles here:
1) Islam, especially is this early period, was neither inherently iconoclastic nor inherently 'iconoclastic'; the scare quotes don't help. There has always been a debate about the proper role of images in Islamic, as in Christian, society; and in the period in question there was in fact a robust tradition of figural representation in the caliphate, both in secular (e.g. Qasr Amra, Khirbat al-Mafjar, etc.) & in religious contexts (on the latter see the references in G. Fowden, "Late antique art in Syria and its Umayyad evolutions," Journal of Roman Archaeology 17 (2004), 301-22).
2) In terms of cultural confrontation: I know of no good evidence that Muslim "iconoclasm" or "aniconism" was a motivating factor in Byzantine iconoclasm. The Byz. stories to the contrary are post-iconoclastic and highly polemic/ legendary (see P. Speck, Ich bin's nicht, Kaiser Konstantin ist es gewesen: die Legenden vom Einfluss des Teufels, des Juden und des Moslem auf den Ikonoklasmus (Bonn, 1990)). In the earliest sources, i.e. Germanos's letters, the argument is made that to ban icon worship is to give comfort to the enemy, who had always accused orthodox Christians of idolatry, but the "enemies" mentioned here are heretics, heathens, and Jews.
The military conflict, on the other hand, may have been decisive; but this is a matter of Arabs qua military opponents, and anyone else, "iconoclastic" or otherwise, would have served just as well. See for example the discussion of the 727 siege of Nicaea in Mango's outline, "Historical introduction," in Bryer & Herrin, eds., Iconoclasm, pp. 2-3. --Javits2000 10:06, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Johnbod 14:29, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
- It is possible that the Iconoclast party within Byzantine territory was encouraged to imitate Yazid's activities, but in terms of doctrine and iconography, iconoclasm had deeper roots within Christianity itself. It did not need Islam to invent Christian opposition to images; the extensive use of icons in the Christian world was sufficient to stimulate a profound objection to them among those Christians who felt that alien, pagan-like practices had intruded into their religion. As to charges made within the Christian world that iconoclasm was the creation of the Muslims or that Leo III and his supporters were 'Saracen-minded', these were more in the nature of insults than precise references to a theological position. Epithets cast at one another by disputing Christians do not necessarily signify a deep understanding of Islamic attitudes in a period when Byzantine knowledge of Islam was limited. (268).
- seems clearly untrue to me(I have since removed the "inevitable" here). There should also be something about the recent destruction of buildings in Mecca (and added this - apparently no article on it though). India in general is not good territory for the revisionists.
Johnbod 16:41, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Whilst we're on the subject, in this bit (1st outbreak section):
"Surviving letters Germanus wrote at the time say little of theology. According to Patricia Karlin-Hayter, what worried Germanus was that the ban of icons would only prove that the Church had been in error for a long time and so play into the hands of Jews and Muslims"[15]"
- do you know if there are other letters actually dating from "the time", as opposed to the letter(s) to the two Cappadocian bishops from before the outbreak, which I suspect this is referring to? If not, it should be rephrased a bit. Johnbod 18:34, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
At present the last two paragraphs of the "sources" section under Byz. iconoclasm don't really deal with sources -- more with questions of public opinion & the origins of iconoclasm. A suggestion: should we perhaps add another header to set this off, for example "Origins of Iconoclasm"? This could in turn be expanded -- i.e. the question of icon worship before iconoclasm (the Kitzinger model & Brubaker); the Quinisext Council on images; the role of icons in the military defense of Byz. cities. --Javits2000 09:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
On May 23rd, I edited, factually, the section to end in this manner:
Protestant Christianity, however, was not uniformly hostile to the use of religious images. Martin Luther argued that Christians should be free to use religious images as long as they did not worship them in the place of God. Zwingli and others for the sake of saving the Word rejected all plastic art; Luther, with an equal concern for the Word, but far more conservative, would have all the arts to be the servants of the Gospel.
“I am not of the opinion” said Luther, “that through the Gospel all the arts should be banished and driven away, as some zealots want to make us believe; but I wish to see them all, especially music, in the service of Him Who gave and created them.” Again he says: “I have myself heard those who oppose pictures, read from my German Bible. … But this contains many pictures of God, of the angels, of men, and of animals, especially in the Revelation of St. John, in the books of Moses, and in the book of Joshua. We therefore kindly beg these fanatics to permit us also to paint these pictures on the wall that they may be remembered and better understood, inasmuch as they can harm as little on the walls as in books. Would to God that I could persuade those who can afford it to paint the whole Bible on their houses, inside and outside, so that all might see; this would indeed be a Christian work. For I am convinced that it is God’s will that we should hear and learn what He has done, especially what Christ suffered. But when I hear these things and meditate upon them, I find it impossible not to picture them in my heart. Whether I want to or not, when I hear, of Christ, a human form hanging upon a cross rises up in my heart: just as I see my natural face reflected when I look into water. Now if it is not sinful for me to have Christ’s picture in my heart, why should it be sinful to have it before my eyes?”
I would like to know why my revision was reverted? -Paul Kiler, Pastor to Artists and Creatives, Missionary with Artists in Christian Testimony International paul.kiler (at) gmail.com Pkiler 21:06, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Since no one has come forward to defend their edit in the past six weeks, like 'Doc Tropics' who removed my edit, I have reinstated it. - Paul Kiler —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pkiler (talk • contribs) 17:00, August 26, 2007 (UTC)
Personally, I would like to see this addition cited. I think it's quite helpful, but I'd like to know which of Luther's treatise(s) it comes from. -Christopher Luna christophermluna 21 October 2008 —Preceding undated comment was added at 19:23, 22 October 2008 (UTC).
Could not find which of Luther's writings were being quoted. However much of the selection, starting from the comment about Zwingli and including the Luther quotes, was lifted directly from a hundred year old essay by Jeremiah F. Ohl. I have changed it to a block quote and cited it. M.boli (talk) 12:32, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
As explained here the following was deleted in the article by Hornplease (talk · contribs) but no reason was put on the talkpage. Why was it deleted, and how could it be improved..
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Iconoclasm&diff=prev&oldid=154852950 There is also evidence for destruction of icons by medieval Muslim rulers of South Asia. The most famous concerns a stone lingam, an aniconic representation of the Hindu god Shiva, which was housed in the temple complex at Somnath in Gujarat. According to a tradition preserved by the 16th century historian Mahommed Kasim Ferishta, the Ghaznavid emperor Mahmud of Ghazni raided Somnath in 1025, looting the temple. The temple Brahmins offered to buy the lingam back, but Mahmud refused, and his army carried it back to Ghazni. There the lingam was broken, and a portion of it was re-used as the threshold of the congregational mosque.[1]
What is wrong with Dr Flood? Or is the problem that the victims are polytheists? Librorum Prohibitorum (talk) 03:37, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for responding. I am not so much attached to the particular version of the text above, but complained about the fact that some editors on wikipedia think they can remove everything they don't like from articles without any explanation on the talkpage (or bogus explanations). It happens a lot in India related articles, and this is just a minor example. Just look at the article histories of articles like Aurangzeb. Just as with the Armenina genocide, there are some people, even academics, who would like to deny some facts. Merry Christmas Librorum Prohibitorum (talk) 03:28, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
I have in mind the occasional public destruction of recorded music, as is seen in the US since the 1950's, as outlined here: http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/14759.htm
Often books, videos and CDs are destroyed together: http://www.ala.org/ala/oif/bannedbooksweek/bookburning/21stcentury/21stcentury.htm
There is already a Wiki article for book-burning: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_burning but I can't seem to find one for recorded music. Is a broader merge indicated here?
131.81.37.22 (talk) 16:26, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
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this "Iconoclasm is the practice of destroying/ridiculing cultural icons or institutions or not being allowed to depict an icon within a culture of the culture's own religious icons and other symbols or monuments, usually for religious or political motives" is akward, at best74.192.12.135 (talk) 01:02, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Look, this introductory section is all over the place. I'm gonna change it to make it less intricate, and more blunt. - Neveos —Preceding unsigned comment added by Neveos (talk • contribs) 03:27, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
This page claims that 'Iconoclasm' is a French word. Yet Iconoclasm_(Byzantine) says that it is a Greek word. Is it both? NelC (talk) 20:14, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
In the defining section in the top of the page "It is thus generally distinguished from the destruction by one culture of the images of another, for example by the Spanish in their American conquests. The term does not generally encompass the specific destruction of images of a ruler after his death or overthrow" yet in the very bottom an example from Baghdad is mentioned in which American soldiers tears down a statue of Saddam Hussein. --93.160.252.18 (talk) 10:37, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
How about mentioning the toppling of the Saddam Hussein statue in the last section on "Political and revolutionary iconoclasm"?
Dagme (talk) 20:15, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
In the section Reformation iconoclasm there are a little too many images. They should ideally be all at right, since any image at the left confuses the indentation structure, making it hard to perceive the quotes. I moved one image from floating to the left to float to the right. If anyone thinks that removing one or two superfluous images in that section is a good idea, then I will support the thinker in question. Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 15:07, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
The recent Hindu section updates seem (to me) mostly a catalog of persecution of Hindus, as opposed to instances of iconoclasm. These updates seem well-sourced and well-written, but I think they have been plunked into the wrong article. M.boli (talk) 12:45, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
I'm not arguing for deleting the whole Hindu section. Aurangzeb destroyed Hindu religious symbols just as William Dowsing destroyed Catholic ones. It just seems to me that much of the included material---especially as it is mostly about riots, torture, edicts against language, and slaughter---is about a different evil and only tangentially related to an article about iconoclasm. I think it belongs to the other, arguably related, topic. Perhaps it would be appropriate to note that persecution of Hindus is often accompanied by large-scale destruction of Hindu religious icons, and then wiki-link the persecution article? M.boli (talk) 14:34, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
It seems to me that if rioting results in temples being destroyed, or stones thrown at a statue, or religious observance is prohibited, then these are acts of persecution, not iconoclasm. I've wiki-linked some examples:
Anyway, I don't feel strongly about this. Just article maintenance. M.boli (talk) 15:23, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
Zowie! Thanks, folks. So many people seem to think the Talk: page is a hell to which they are consigned for a short period after the 3RR article block and before the ANI account block. It is nice to be reminded most Wikipedians are working together on a common endeavor. M.boli (talk) 16:13, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
Also: Hindu practice is infused with murthis and icons of many types. (It seemed to me during my brief trip to India that the average lorry driver had one or two within reach at all times.) So my thought above that persecution of Hindus is often accompanied by large scale destruction of Hindu icons---the visible symbols of Hinduism---would seem to be the kind of thing worth mentioning in this article. Haven't noticed any reliable source however, so I won't edit such a sentence into the article. M.boli (talk) 16:33, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
Here I intend iconoclasm in opposition of iconodules (Do not worshipers of images), No explicitly in destructive sense
The iconoclasm was not characteristic of the first Islam indeed I remember the mosaics of the Dome of the Rock, the mosque of Damascus and the ruins of the Umayyad palaces in the Syrian desert. There are lot of animals figures. Only with the Abbasid Caliphate iconosclas became common in all Islam. I remember that iconoclasm was present in the late Roman Empire in various Christian heresies and in Manicheism, moreover it has always been present in Judaism that obviously influenced Christianism and Islam. Many Christians of Syria and Egypt that were converted to Islam often in opposition to Byzantium, were iconoclasts. There were many anti-Trinitarians in Syria. They never accepted Nicaea. The Islam of Four Rightly Guided Caliphs was exit from Arabia with almost no theology but with simple dogmas. So it is not the iconoclasm of Islam that has influenced the Byzantine iconoclasm. But it is late Roman Empire iconoclasm that influenced Islam iconoclasm. Finally I remember that during the short period of iconoclasm power in Byzantium the Exarchate of Ravenna definitively broke away from Byzantium. Hovewer also in western side the iconoclasm remain latent. I remember the Cathar, Albigenses heresies and some currents into Cattolic church for example the Franciscan spirituals. All well before Protestantism. All these movements are heavily influenced by the idea of the early Christians comunities in which iconoclasm often was in opposition pagan “iconodulia”. It is no coincidence that there are many beautiful classical statues without heads ..... and sculpture and painting are so decayed. --Andriolo (talk) 18:04, 8 August 2011 (UTC)--84.223.58.180 (talk) 18:04, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
Only an example of Umayyad figurative to see here: Qasr Amra --Andriolo (talk) 18:35, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
About the destruction of temples of different religions I think it's a different topic, the topic of the damnatio memoriae.
I nominated the section "Chinese iconoclasm" for neutrality review, particularly for the following statement:
"Muslims do not believe in superstition (see Shirk (Islam)) and his religion may have influenced Bai to take action against the idols in the temples and the superstitious practices in China."
Claiming particular Islamic proscriptions are irreconcilable with rituals of the faith(s) practiced in the temples destroyed by Bai Chongxi, that such irreconcilability was significant to Bai, and that his actions were facilitated by his "inherently anti-superstitious Islamic perspective" is not neutral. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.175.5.220 (talk) 04:57, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
I realise this has already addressed above, but I feel this subject is important and should be treated more explicitly. However, the treatment of this question in the article Byzantine iconoclasm is unsatisfying and insufficient, in my opinion. Note that Aniconism in Christianity#Byzantine iconoclasm says:
If the issue has been so intensely discussed in the literature, there should be plenty of sources to cite, and a fuller treatment of the subject should be possible; enough to merit a separate section in Byzantine iconoclasm. Also, Iconoclasm#Byzantine iconoclasm says:
This is a pretty suggestive correlation, to say the least. The idea that the successes of Islam had something to do with the movement is hardly unreasonable, and the second paragraph is evidence enough that Islam was in fact adverse to (especially religious) images in the period in question. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 18:29, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
Please stop deleting this paragraph. It is a summary of an article from a peer-review academic journal (with noted scholar Norman Geisler being one of the editors). The author has a Ph.D. in church history and the editors have relevant degrees. Just because you don't like what it says doesn't mean you can delete it and then accuse those who restore it of "edit warring." The paragraph could probably use some copy-editing, maybe even condensing, but to delete a reference to one of the few articles on iconoclasm in a wiki page on iconoclasm is unwarranted.
John B. Carpenter argues that the early church inherited the opposition to icons in second temple, Talmudic Judaism, and opposed icons through the fourth century.[2] Hence, early Christians were accused of being "atheists" by Romans who assumed the absence of images meant the absence of belief in gods.[3] Origen (184-254) responded to the charge of "atheism" by admitting that Christians did not use images in worship, following the Second Commandment.[4] Canon 36 of the Council of Elvira (c. 305) states, “Pictures are not to be placed in churches, so that they do not become objects of worship and adoration.” About the year 327 the early church historian Eusebius (c. AD 263 – 339) wrote, "To depict purely the human form of Christ before its transformation, on the other hand, is to break the commandment of God and to fall into pagan error."[5] Epiphanius (inter 310–320 – 403), bishop of Salamis, in Cyprus wrote, in Letter 51 (c. 394), to John, Bishop of Jerusalem about an incident of finding an image in a church in his jurisdiction: "I went in to pray, and found there a curtain hanging on the doors of the said church, dyed and embroidered. It bore an image either of Christ or of one of the saints; I do not rightly remember whose the image was. Seeing this, and being loath that an image of a man should be hung up in Christ's church contrary to the teaching of the Scriptures, I tore it asunder and advised the custodians of the place to use it as a winding sheet for some poor person." He goes on to tell John that such images are “contrary to our religion” and to instruct the presbyter of the church that such images are “an occasion of offense.”[6] The issue of icons in eastern Christianity was only settled at the second "Seventh Ecumenical Council," in 787, leading Carpenter to conclude that that council marks the true beginning of Eastern Orthodoxy with it's prominent use of icons.[7] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.53.88.54 (talk) 15:00, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
The section on Muslim Iconoclasm appears to be inconsistent with the definition of iconoclasm in the first sentence of the article:
The examples of iconoclasm in the section on Muslim Iconoclasm are examples of destruction against non-Muslim images and are thus not examples of "deliberate destruction within a culture of the culture's own religious icons and other symbols or monuments." It would appear that, either the definition of iconoclasm should be changed or the section on Muslim Iconoclasm should be rewritten to be limited to covering examples of destruction of Muslim religious symbols, which may include examples such as the destruction of Sufi shrines but which would not include examples of the destruction of non-Muslim artifacts which fill up this section. A discussion of the destruction by Muslims of non-Muslim artifacts may belong in a different article. -- Bob (Bob99 (talk) 14:06, 13 September 2013 (UTC))
Would this [4] deserve to be mentioned? Recent event, but old stuff. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:51, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
Redirects here = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iconoclastic
This article utterly ignores the far more common non-religious usage of the words: Iconoclastic and Iconoclasim. Collins Dictionary does not even have your religious definition. http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/iconoclastic Oxford Dictionaries does not have it under "Iconoclastic," but has it as Def2 under "Iconoclasm." http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/iconoclastic iconoclasm NOUN 1The action of attacking or assertively rejecting cherished beliefs and institutions or established values and practices. 2The rejection or destruction of religious images as heretical; the doctrine of iconoclasts.
Since the main (real) definition is non-religious, that should be in the opening paragraph, along with a warning that the remainder of the article is about the uncommon (obscure?) religious definition. "Uncommon?" I've studied the Bible, World Religion, + arguments etc, and never heard your definition. I suspect it's used mostly by Catholics?
Here are 28 definitions: http://www.onelook.com/?w=Iconoclastic&ls=a Please fix. Thanks!
--71.137.156.36 (talk) 20:09, 12 April 2014 (UTC)Doug Bashford
oh dear. The article lead clearly states it is going to be "the deliberate destruction within a culture of the culture's own religious icons and other symbols or monuments". It then goes on to present lengthy pieces on "iconoclasm against Hindus" and "Chinese anti-foreignism". Of course the word "iconoclasm" has also wider applications, including figurative ones. Take it to Wiktionary. Wikipedia is not a dictionary, and this is supposed to be the article about actual iconoclasm, not a random collection of incidents where "images were broken". --dab (𒁳) 05:27, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
I have reordered this article to encompass the two themes of iconoclasm identified in the lede: religious and political forms of iconoclasm. As discussed numerous times on this talk page, the article must be clear about which is which, and that political iconoclasm should not be excluded from the discussion. I also feel there is too much emphases given to some subjects - the French Revolution and the destruction of Hindu temples in particular - and I suspect this is probably because there are no specific main articles to refer the reader to. These main articles should be done developed from the material I have temporarily commented out. (I am prepared to do the articles, I just want to know what the community has to say about it.) Then the article will work better as an overview of the "vast and exciting world of iconoclasm" and the reader can then surf to more detailed articles at his or her pleasure. Comments? Better ideas? Verne Equinox (talk) 01:43, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
Does someone can add about ISIS?
--Setareh1990 (talk) 17:01, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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The intro says "The destruction of religious icons by a group with another religion or culture is not considered iconoclasm.", then later: "Iconoclasm may be carried out by people of a different religion, but is often the result of sectarian disputes between factions of the same religion." So which is it? FunkMonk (talk) 01:29, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
The destruction of religious icons by a group with another religion or culture is not considered iconoclasm.from the lead, since there are several examples of iconoclasm by other religious groups in the article, eg:
foreign Hyksos rulers, chiefly Apophis and Akhenaten, based in Memphis and Avaris, instituted a campaign of intolerance towards indigenous gods (monotheism) and many temples and monuments were destroyed
The Israelites entering the Promised Land were instructed by God to 'destroy all [the] engraved stones, destroy all [the] molded images, and demolish all [the] high places' of the Canaanite indigenous population
Over the course of the last decade [1990s] a fairly large number of Buddhist temples in South Korea have been destroyed or damaged by fire by misguided Christian fundamentalists.
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I don't have a lot of time, but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idolatry_in_Sikhism . I think it would be an informational addition to the article. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 03:41, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
What in the world are "bengal fires"? Also written in the same way (copyvio) at Statue of Zlatan Elizium23 (talk) 17:12, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
There was an attempted blanking of two paragraphs wholly cited to two books by Richard Eaton. For the benefit of the IP that have reverted, as their claims seemed unfounded and made no sense with regards to the subsequent paragraphs also detailing further acts of a similar vein, Richard Eaton is a professor of the University of Arizona that has published several books on Indian history. If there is criticism of his claims from a professor or professional historian then I suggest you bring that forwards before you again blank those paragraphs without a legitimate reason. Koncorde (talk) 15:08, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
I recently made substantial edits to the citations on this page. This included several actions:
((cite book))
|publication-place=
or |oclc=
((cite|author=last, first))
into ((cite|last=last|first=first))
((cite web))
to ((cite news))
My changes were reverted by Johnbod based on WP:CITEVAR. I think I may have erred in #1 above. Many references on this page already use ((cite))
, so I didn't think #2 would be an issue for WP:CITEVAR, and using templates greatly improves machine parseability. Many of the references appear very similar with and without templates; I'm not seeing a clear citation style change. All of the other changes seem to me to be clear improvements. @Johnbod: Can you be more specific in which changes you object to? What do others think? Daask (talk) 11:17, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
harvnb
converted to sfn
, plus one more bare-text short cite converted to sfn
. These could be harvnb
to respect the custom of the people who have been editing this page. Regarding the reading list at the bottom: I don't understand the problem with putting the readings in cite templates. Everything else seems like cite completion and cite maintenance. I get that it was a big pile of edits to pick through, but that's because it looks like a lot of work was done. Maybe now the picking has been done? Most are improvements, I'm glad it's now on the talk page. --- M.boli (talk) 15:08, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
I persist in thinking that iconoclasm is not a mere rejection of religious pictures (and, for instance, of their "sacred" character) but consists in their actual destruction, e.g. by laceration of canvases or decapitation of statues. However, apprently unlike ServB1 (who just made twice in succession the IMO erroneous change) I do not want to embark in an editing war. Can someone with more authority than I have decide between us? — Tonymec (talk) 22:43, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
References
So below is an attempt to condense and reorder some of the content. This is by no means something concrete, just want to frame what I think are the disparate elements into what I would consider a more logical order. I think there are sentences that could be culled entirely for not really adding more, or that need expanding because we are barely summarising the actual content. Koncorde (talk) 22:02, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
Iconoclasm (from Greek: εἰκών, eikṓn, 'figure, icon' + κλάω, kláō, 'to break')[i] is the religious or politically motivated rejection of icons taking the form of the physical destruction, defacement or removal of statues, art works and monuments. People who engage in or support iconoclasm are called iconoclasts, a term that has come to be figuratively applied to any individual who challenges "cherished beliefs or venerated institutions on the grounds that they are erroneous or pernicious." The term originates from the Byzantine Iconoclasm, the struggles between proponents (an iconolater, iconodule or iconophile) and opponents of religious icons in the Byzantine Empire from 726 to 842 AD.
Degrees of iconoclasm vary greatly among religions and their branches, but are strongest in religions which oppose idolatry. While iconoclasm may be carried out by adherents of one religion against another, it is also commonly the result of sectarian disputes between factions of the same religion. Outside of the religious context, iconoclasm can refer to movements for widespread destruction in symbols of an ideology or cause, such as the destruction of monarchist symbols during the French Revolution or Soviet symbols following the Fall of Communism. However Iconoclasm does not generally encompass the destruction of the images of a specific ruler after his or her death or overthrow, a practice better known as damnatio memoriae.
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 August 2022 and 2 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Sdolphin02 (article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by Sdolphin02 (talk) 16:43, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
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