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Islamism in London was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 21 September 2009 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Islamism. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 3 September 2019 and 12 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Noahroos98, Noahroos.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 00:54, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
This used to be a separate article but after a vote it was moved here as a section. Wikipedia prevents it from becoming a separate article since the vote has been made against it. Trouble is, it's quite long, and this article is already too long. I'm going to summarize it and put a main article link to Londonistan (term)
Here's the summary --BoogaLouie (talk) 16:14, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
For those who object I suggest they create an Islamism in Europe article. --BoogaLouie (talk) 16:59, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Not only this so called "Islamic Flag" is out of place, but the whole description and meaning of it seem to be taken out of some B-movie involving a stereotypical plot about "terrism". Either provide sources that it is indeed an "Islamic Flag" and that the description is true, or it will be deleted in accordance to WP:NOCITE. --Kray0n (talk) 11:18, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
According to the same principles of notability and common agreement as applied to nazism being right-wing - popular tendency is to put islamism on the left wing of the political axis, and because Wikipedia is not a matter of original research, this tendency should result in Islamism actually being counted as left-wing on Wikipedia as well. The argument can be lifted verbatim from the article about nazism being right-wing. Maybe someone who knows the system here better can make the required changes, although I can provide references to individuals calling Islamism left-wing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.143.136.254 (talk) 21:31, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
http://picpaste.com/warning-about-islamism-00ToI1QX.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.106.151.118 (talk) 23:19, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
I trimmed this from the Islamism#Relation between Islam and Islamism section
Scholars like like Javed Ahmad Ghamidi have argued that all the actions of the Prophet Muhammad do not form an example for Muslims to follow, a sunnah. He holds that the da'wah (preaching and propagation) by a Messenger of God has targets defined by God and are specific to him. The role of the individual believer, the scholars and even a state with Muslim domination is different from that of a Prophet. The Prophet can after making the message clear to his addressees, under God's direction, fight the rejecters of the message. The Qur'an, after this stage in the Prophetic mission of Muhammad, did not leave the polythiests of Arabia with an option to live and adhere to polythiesm. They were to be executed if they did not enter Islam. This option is not available to any after the Prophet since no one can know who is rejecting the Message knowingly for no one is in a position to interact with God and no one receives revelation from Him.Political Canon of Islam
Reason: The article is already very long, the author is not particularly notable, and the text better belongs in Criticism of Islamism or Political aspects of Islam. --BoogaLouie (talk) 19:31, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
An anon poster keesp adding Ismet Özel as a central figure of Islamism. He is an elected leader of a large country, but his he influential as an islamist? Does anyone have a source stating he is a central figure? In the mean time I'm deleting it again. --BoogaLouie (talk) 19:44, 16 December 2009 (UTC) Whos saud Al Qaeda is Islamist, or have any relation with islam? Wikipedia in my eye is losing its respect, its so racist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.96.110.121 (talk) 12:55, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
Okay, this article is pretty dumb as it is. It should be linked with other racist and imperialist terms like Cracker and White Trash. The criticism section should not be a criticism of "Islamism" as a movement, which doesn't exist, but a criticism of the simpletons who coined this term in the first place. The word "Islam" itself means "submission". Sure, there are Islamic people -25 percent of the world, the world's fastest growing religion, etc.... But someone who subscribes to Islam is a "Muslim" -i.e., "one who submits". Okay, so some non-religionists and Christianists on Fox news and CNN use the term "Islamist" everday -doesn't mean its not a bigoted stereotype. This article should not be deleted, but should be put in the category of stereotypes and hate-speech. Remember, as Edward Said points out, there is a long history of purposivly mislabeling Muslims -who were for centuries called "Mohammedans", just as much of the media refused to call Cassius Clay by his real name Muhammad Ali. Lets rewrite the criticism section here and make sure readers know that this terms is a wilfull misrepresentation and not a description of anything at all. Teetotaler 5 January, 2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.67.81.197 (talk) 17:51, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Islamism article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. --BoogaLouie (talk) 17:12, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
I deleted edits by 95.147.234.97 (and he has restored them) as they are unsourced opinions, the topic (of diversity in Islam and Islamism) is already covered, and the article is already very long. --BoogaLouie (talk) 16:25, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Why does Radical Islam redirect here? Is there no way to distinguish violent Jihadists and the poltics of Al Queda from other more moderate Muslims? Bachcell (talk) 00:19, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
This is racist, how come all the citations are from christian sources? HUH — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.96.110.121 (talk) 12:51, 24 August 2011 (UTC) How about radical christianity and jewish? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.96.110.121 (talk) 13:06, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
If Islam is a universal and interracial religion, then it follows that any discussion, negative or otherwise, about it's spread throughout the world cannot be deemed "racist". Logic trumps bias. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gutumnbagem (talk • contribs) 09:41, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
An editor can't pull out a quote by someone, and accuse the quote of being Islamist. A reliable source needs to have made that allegation.
This is the same as pulling a quote from Daniel Pipes, and putting it at Islamophobia as an example. A reliable source needs to have made the allegation.Bless sins (talk) 11:55, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Amanisa please stop putting this section in the article.
This is an article about the political movement Islamism, not the religion Islam! Your text is not written in wikipedia format and not encyclopedic. --BoogaLouie (talk) 14:17, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Please stop your edit war, it's highly relative. This is about 'Islamic activism' AKA Political Islam, AKA Islamism. It's written in encylopedic form, though some improvement can help...
Not sure I follow your real "objection"? Is it that you prefer us to insert this valuable information in the Islam page?
If you want more info about Islamic bigotry, we can provide more.
AmAnisa (talk) 23:38, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Guys, I don't see anything with criticizing the undisputed bigotry in Islam, that user did not post it in Islam, which makes it even more moderate and less contentious. If someone has a problem with markhumphrey, still doesn't make it unreliable. why do the pro-Islamism keep on in the edit war while no consensus was reached?190.122.171.58 (talk) 21:50, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
AmAnisa has been blocked as a sock of User:Toothie3. It wouldnt surprise me if this IP were the same user. nableezy - 23:20, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
This article does mention even smaller movements, but fails to mention the Pakistan movement and the resultant blood-soaked partition of India. Without doubt, Pakistan movement is one of the most quintessential pieces of islamism in all of history. I am not used to this editing stuff, so i request editors to please see to this. 117.204.80.116 (talk) 19:29, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
Hi, fine to use term like "Islamism" and "Christianism" to represent political movements within these religions, if we do the same also for "Judaism", Buddhism", "Hinduism" etc.
However, you will notice that for other religions, the suffix "-ism" in no way carries a political connotation but rather describes the lump sum of religious content within the religion. E.g. Judaism (V. 13.10.2010, 12:12) "Judaism is the "religion, philosophy, and way of life" of the Jewish people." And Buddhism: Buddhism is a religion and philosophy encompassing a variety of traditions, beliefs and practices, largely based on teachings attributed to Siddhartha Gautama, commonly known as the Buddha (Pāli/Sanskrit "the awakened one").
By contrast Islamism: "Islamism is a set of ideologies holding that Islam is not only a religion but also a political system, and that modern Muslims must return to their roots of their religion, and unite politically." And "Christianism" as above.
Shouldn't we be more consistent in application of the suffix "-ism"? And preferably use it only to apply to a body of religious content, as opposed to political movements, to avoid confusion.
To be consistent I have also added this discussion to the "Christianism" page.
There is criticism i Islamism, and radical Islam, but no criticism in radical christianity, or christianism, Wikipedia is so racist and annoying — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.96.110.121 (talk) 13:00, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
--Musa Emre (talk) 10:35, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
The terms Islamist" and "Islamism" are problematical because: --They are almost entirely used by outside critics and are not accepted by their target. Therefore they are not neutral terms. --They have no agreed on definitions --They are most often used with progandistic intent. Note the fact there is no term "Christianist" in common usage even though there is a similar (though much smaller) movement among Christians. This nonparallelism partly reflects the fact that speakers who use the term "Islamist" are overwhelmingly from Christianized countries. We do need a term for politically mobilized fundamentalist Islamic ideology, and unfortunately there is no alternative term that is in wide use. At the very least this article needs a separate section pointing out how problematic these terms is. The section on "relation with Islam" touches on these issues but has the wrong header for such a discussion. Burressd (talk) 18:54, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
We need citations as to which cou ntires this group operates in.Slatersteven (talk) 16:35, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
WP:Weasel tag was added in September 2010 but ther has been no specific discussion of what problem it refers to ... unless you include complaints above (Christianism, Islamism, Judaism and Contested Word) about the term Islamism itself and there not being an eqivalent article on Christianism in wikipedia. --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:43, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
Typed in "islamic fanaticism" and got redirected here... WTF???? --Spmoura (talk) 14:05, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
Those possibly interested could base themselves upon this article written by Srđa Trifković ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sr%C4%91a_Trifkovi%C4%87 ) at http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2009/05/green-corridor-in-balkans.html .
I'll also put a link to this suggestion on the discussion page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sr%C4%91a_Trifkovi%C4%87 . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.208.90.139 (talk) 07:44, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
Dialectical Logic of Islamists (i.e., of the Lost):
Dialectical logic is found in the core of Eastern and Western thought. It is a common flaw to the human species. Although the various human cultures have developed their own methods of using this flaw, it is not simply a cultural defect. However, since each culture uses this flaw to to defend and to define itself, every attempt to correct the flaw is perceived to be an attack on the culture itself. Islamists are particularly sensitive to this perceived attack; because the dialectical Absolute of the Koran is found in the attempt to synthesize the Old and New Testaments (i.e., "the Book"). --FinalNotice (talk) 19:16, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
An image used in this article, File:Portrait of Imam Khomeini.jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion for the following reason: All Wikipedia files with unknown copyright status
Don't panic; you should have time to contest the deletion (although please review deletion guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page.
This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 13:02, 3 November 2011 (UTC) |
The article should include recent developments of the Arab Spring ... admittedly still in progress. --BoogaLouie (talk) 00:06, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
I found a text that questions the whole existence of islamism, saying that islam and islamism are actually the same thing.[5] I think that the source is not quite good enough, but once someone finds a better one, it could be included in the article as a criticism. A parallel: If someone heavily or even violently supports democracy, then is he a democraticist whose idea is democraticism, or is he simply a democrat? --Uikku (talk) 21:05, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
Islamism is a concocted term by various Orientalists, neo cons and Israelis. Islamists on the other hand which started out as a derogatory term has now changed and become normative for describing Islamic activists esp in Arab spring revolutions in Egypt, Libya, and Tunisia. This redirection to Islamism should be stopped and islamist should have its own page along with links to the islamic activists and movements involved in the Arab spring revolutions. For example islamist.com seems to be a pro islamist news web site (http://www.islamist.com/index.phphttp://www.islamist.com) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wholetruth123 (talk • contribs) 19:33, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
The concept Islamism is controversial, not just because it posits a political role for Islam, but also because its supporters believe their views merely reflect Islam, while the contrary idea that Islam is, or can be, apolitical is an error. Scholars and observers who do not believe that Islam is a political ideology include Fred Halliday, John Esposito and Muslim intellectuals like Javed Ahmad Ghamidi.
Islamists have asked the question, "If Islam is a way of life, how can we say that those who want to live by its principles in legal, social, political, economic, and political spheres of life are not Muslims, but Islamists and believe in Islamism, not [just] Islam?"[1] Similarly, a writer for the International Crisis Group maintains that "the conception of 'political Islam'" is a creation of Americans to explain the Iranian Islamic Revolution. In reality, apolitical Islam was an historical fluke of the "shortlived heyday of secular Arab nationalism between 1945 and 1970," and it is quietist/non-political Islam, not Islamism, that requires explanation.[2]
On the other hand, Muslim-owned and run media (not just Western media) have used the terms "Islamist" and "Islamism" — as distinguished from Muslim and Islam — to distinguish groups such as the Islamic Salvation Front in Algeria[3] or Jamaa Islamiya in Egypt,[4] which actively seek to implement Islamic law, from mainstream Muslim groups.
Another source distinguishes Islamist from Islamic "by the fact that the latter refers to a religion and culture in existence over a millennium, whereas the first is a political/religious phenomenon linked to the great events of the 20th century". Islamists have, at least at times, defined themselves as "Islamiyyoun/Islamists" to differentiate themselves from "Muslimun/Muslims".[5]
- ^ Abid Ullah Jan, Wikipedia: Good Intentions, Horrible Consequences, Al-Jazeerah Op-Ed, 27 February 2006. (archive.org accessed 2007-10-24).
- ^ Understanding Islamism Middle East/North Africa Report N°37 2 March 2005
- ^ Algerian group joins al-Qaeda brand
- ^ Egypt frees 900 Islamist militants
- ^ Final Report of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, The 9/11 Commission Report, W.W. Norton & Company, New York, (2004), p.562
I see many references in Islamic movements news and some literature referring to themselves as Islamist. I see none refer to their thinking as Islamism. Booga I checked all your references above except Abidullah Jan which the link was not working. The only mention of Islamism was in the International crisis group which is yet another neo con hydra and is not an Islamist or Muslim site. Booga, please clarify your terms and distinguish between the usage of Islamist and Islamism. Do not be evasive in referring to both while the citation only refers to Islamist. Booga could you give us some citations of Islamic movements referring to Islamism as an ideology?.
As a quick search for Islamist on Ikhwanweb.com via google generates 97,600 hits with numerous references in self descriptions of Islamic political parties identifying themselves as Islamist. Why Islamists Are Better Democrats - Ikhwanweb or Tunisia's Islamist Nahda Wins Impressive Landslide Victory
The term Islamist and Islamism are distinct and different. Islamist is how Islamic political movements describe themselves while Islamism is a term used primarily by their detractors. Therefore The wiki entry for Islamist should not be redirected to Islamism. Free speech and free debate should prevail.
Wholetruth123 (talk) 22:29, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
@shadihamid Shadi Hamid I don't get why ppl have such a problem w- the word "Islamist." That's what (most) Islamists call themselves. There's no btr alternative.
Director of Research at the Brookings Doha Center & Fellow at the Saban Center for Middle East Policy at the Brookings Institution. Shamid [at] Brookings.edu. Http://www.brookings.edu/experts/hamids.aspx — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.19.161.171 (talk) 07:43, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
Toddy, appreciate the kind word. I am trying in all good faith to get this redirect of Islamist to Islamism stopped and have an independent page for Islamist where it can cover some of the movements involved in the Arab spring revolutions. I strongly feel that many wiki readers would benefit from a frank look at the workings of Islamist parties in the middle east with both pro and con viewpoints clearly elucidated. The Islamism entry can stay and the debate on Islamism can stay as it is.
Which editor or editors can undo the redirect?
Wholetruth123 (talk) 20:39, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
So following your logic stupid should be redirected to stupidism?
Islamism is not an ism. On the other hand there are clearly people who are Islamists. Islamist generally describes politically active people following the Islamic faith. Islamism is like the term Mohammedanism which was constructed by 19th century orientalists looking to justify European colonial rules and policies. Islamism is a construct of the same modern day Orientalists as the old Imperial orientalists who coined the term Mohammedanism
Another way to explain it is to redirect Christ to Christism. Christism is an artificial construct and no Christians refer to themselves as following Christism.
WT
Wholetruth123 (talk) 23:02, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
And the N word simply means black. Same way a sombrero means a hat? The term Islamist is derogatory for Muslims. We don't like it. You cannot seperate the Rules of the Shariah from the lives on a Muslim. Granted that there are some Muslims that do not adhere to it totally but that does not mean that those who do are now "Islamists". It just means they are more practicing Muslims. I'm surprised this hasn't caused more of a stir yet.
BrYounus (talk) 21:11, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
This statement
"In reality, apolitical Islam was an historical fluke of the "shortlived heyday of secular Arab nationalism between 1945 and 1970," and it is quietist/non-political Islam, not Islamism, that requires explanation"
has no place in a Wikipedia article. Please remove it or provide evidence of the said condition. (A reference is not evidence.)
SirteP (talk) 15:39, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
Islam by nature is political so why the need for Islamism title. Giftanodegiftanode (talk) 22:22, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
It looks like someone was messing around in photoshop and decided to make this guy trippy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Flobee (talk • contribs) 04:16, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
As many talk page commenters have pointed out, "Islamism" is a poorly-constructed category applied by outsiders with an ax to grind. The article itself needs major changes—for example, "history" comes quite late, after SNYTH-y seeming sections like "Relation with Islam".
How about focusing this article on the term "Islamism" and those who have created and used this term? The content related to political Islam could be moved to an article called "Political Islam" or merged with "Political aspects of Islam". At bare minimum, "political Islam" should redirect to the latter page. If you compare searches on Google Scholar, you will see how these terms are typically used in the scholarly literature—"Islamism" is used more often to describe European and European–American conceptions of political Islam.
Peace, groupuscule (talk) 23:30, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Islamism's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "allamaiqbal.com":
((cite web))
: |first=
missing |last=
(help)Reference named "books.google.co.uk":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 06:42, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Why did you delete these citations without even an edit summary?? --BoogaLouie (talk) 19:26, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
Edits by Ahmed 313-326 have, among other things, eliminated the term "theodemocracy" that Maududi used. There is plenty of evidence this concept was important to his ideas (see here) --BoogaLouie (talk) 19:55, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
I saw this dispute listed at Third Opinion. This is not a third opinion, but just a question for Ahmed 313-326 with the hope that the matter may be made clearer for me or for someone else to give a third opinion. As BoogaLouie says, several of the citations connect the term to Modudi, and at least a couple of them directly attribute it to him, saying that he invented the term. Chasing down the footnotes in some of them, it appears that Modudi used the term in his book, The Islamic Law and Constitution. Ahmed, I'm afraid that I don't understand what you mean in your comments, above. It's not clear whether you mean that he didn't use the term — "Modudi never talked about 'theodemocracy'" — or whether you mean that he did use it, but his use of it is being misunderstood or misused — "it is a matter of meaning and understanding of word 'theodemocracy'". Could you clarify your position, please? Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 17:12, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
While editors have been waiting for Ahmed to reply, he's gone and made another deletion (I should have caught before)
here deleting a sourced sentence
It has been said of Sirhindi that he 'gave to Indian Islam the rigid and conservative stamp it bears today.'
.. and making no edit summary to explain why. --BoogaLouie (talk) 21:44, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
There is no point to the quotations in the lead [of wikipedia], which have in brackets [to clarify the point]. If there is a ref, you can just state the points without the quotes. --Inayity (talk) 14:22, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
Should edits deleting the word "theodemocracy" -- describing the ideas of famed Islamist writer Abul A'la Maududi -- and deleting some other citations (with no edit summary) be allowed to stand.
As explained above, Mawdudi and numerous authors have used the word "theodemocracy" to describe his ideas.
Since the time of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, and the huge influence of Kemalist ideology on the formation of the Turkish Republic, Turkey has been widely considered the most secular majority-Muslim government in the middle east, and the government least influenced by Islamists. Reading this article, it appears to imply the exact opposite. -- Thebuscamebyandigoton (talk) 18:55, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
Copying the following from WP:Christianism for clarification -Thebuscamebyandigoton (talk) 14:46, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
Christianism had various definitions over the years. It was originally defined as "the Christian religion" or "the Christian world",[1] with cognates in languages like Spanish (cristianismo) or French (christianisme) retaining this meaning. In recent years, Christianism (or Christianist) has also been used as a descriptive term of Christian fundamentalists, mostly in the United States, for the ideology of the Christian right, meant as a counterpoint to "Islamism".[2][3] Writing in 2005, the New York Times language columnist William Safire attributed the term (in its modern usage) to conservative blogger Andrew Sullivan, who wrote on June 1, 2003 :[2]
I have a new term for those on the fringes of the religious right who have used the Gospels to perpetuate their own aspirations for power, control and oppression: Christianists. They are as anathema to true Christians as the Islamists are to true Islam.
The liberal bloggers Tristero and David Neiwert used the term shortly after.[4][5] Sullivan later expanded on his usage of the term in a Time magazine column.[6] Uses of the term can be found dating back to the seventeenth century, but these are unrelated to its modern meaning.[2]
((cite news))
: Check date values in: |date=
(help); no-break space character in |date=
at position 4 (help)
>> Whither political Islam? (Lihaas (talk) 22:21, 24 December 2013 (UTC)).
A Word About tide, discussants think unclear, indistinct, not prezies. That's why print with long sentences, kompleziert, little understood. Or, do it to blur the issue, do not talk interesting. Show Psy - Simptomen / Sorry /.1-CVH-420Peg (talk) 14:16, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
I have flagged the "Counter-response" section as "dubious" insofar as it appears to confuse "Islamism" with "terrorism."* In my research, there is no indication that the USG has explicitly (or even implicitly) engaged in efforts to undermine political expressions of Islam (Islamism). The section was a bit too "post hoc ergo propter hoc" for Wikipedia. To be clear, the USG does does seek to counter violent terrorists who profess a faith in Islam, but does not (as far as I can tell) seek to counter Islamists or Islamism. The section does mention "violent Islamists," which is closer to reality, but the USG is still explicitly oriented toward "terrorism." It is below the usual standard of Wikipedia to conflate Islamism and terrorism without a much deeper discussion than what is included here.
Do not feed the trolls. User warned. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Notice how the only people who use this word are white or work for the white media? (I'm white, btw, but this wikipedia and I'm a volunteer). Someone that is Islamic, like one of the countless Muslim genius's like Averroes or Avicenna or al-Khwarizmi, would not describe their work as "Islamist". When Muhammad Ali didn't want to fight against Vietnam, his pacifism wasn't Islamist. Sure, a true Muslim would not have supported or joined in the American war on Vietnam, but that is not called Islamism. Rather, Islamism is a word invented by racists and imperialists and is a form of Orientalism I hereby nominate this page for deletion. I'll be back. Teetotaler 27 July, 2014
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Why do we need [who?] tags
(example: Some observers[who?] suggest Islamism's tenets are less strict, and can be defined as a form of identity politics or "support for [Muslim] identity, authenticity, broader regionalism, revivalism, [and] revitalization of the community".[1])
when a citation is given? It seems like an excuse to mess up the article.
Here is a example of even worse use:
In this context, the publications of Jamal ad-din al-Afghani (1837–97), Muhammad Abduh (1849–1905) and Rashid Rida (1865–1935) preached Islamic alternatives to the political, economic, and cultural decline of the empire.[2] Muhammad Abduh and Rashid Rida formed the beginning of the Salafist movement,[3][4][5][6][7] as well as the reformist Islamist movement.[8]
Their ideas included the creation of a truly Islamic society under sharia law, and the rejection of taqlid, the blind imitation of earlier authorities, which they[who?] believed deviated from the true messages of Islam.[9] Unlike some later Islamists, Salafists strongly emphasized the restoration of the Caliphate.[10]
A sentence talking about Muhammad Abduh and Rashid Rida forming a movement is followed by a sentence using the pronoun "they" ... which is tagged with [who?].
I ask you good people, who reading this is not going to make the obvious assumption that "they" refers to Muhammad Abduh and Rashid Rida? what reason can for their be for the tag except to make the article look bad to the casual reader? --BoogaLouie (talk)
--BoogaLouie (talk) 16:52, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
Is prophet Muhammad a Islamist too? He was political by establishing the first Muslim state in Medina. Was prophet Muhammad a central figure in Islamism, should we include that into the article? Moorrests (talk) 16:26, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
Can somebody explain to me what is the difference between these two articles Political aspects of Islam and Islamism? Aren't they talking about the same topic. Shouldn't they be merged? Moorrests (talk) 21:36, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Jamal ad din afghani is not the originator of Salafism. His movement used the word salafi but now what is known as salafism today was established by the Wahhabi movement.The salafi movement is known today as Islamic modernism.It ispired the Contemporary islamist movements.
As for contemporary Salafism.It is the state religion of Saudi Arabia is according to Stephane Lacroix (a Postdoctoral Fellow and Lecturer at Sciences Po in Paris)
" As opposed to Wahhabism, Salafism refers here to all the hybridations that have taken place since the 1960s between the teachings of Muhammad bin ‘Abd al-Wahhab and other Islamic schools of thought. Al-Albani’s discourse can therefore be a form of Salafism, while being critical of Wahhabism"
(ref: https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstream/handle/1887/17210/ISIM_21_Al-Albani-s_Revolutionary_Approach_to_Hadith.pdf?sequence=1 , page-2)
and according to Dillon, Michael R:
" Salafism of 19th century under such key figures as Jamal al-Din al-Afghani, Muhammad Abdu, and Rashid Rida, which were referred to as Islamic modernists. Their form of Salafism was fundamentally different from contemporary Salafism
(ref: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a509109.pdf , page-33)
The confusion you are facing can be understood from below qoute:
" There has been some confusion in recent years because both the Islamic modernists and the contemporary Salafis refer (referred) to themselves as al-salafiyya, leading some observers to erroneously conclude a common ideological lineage. The earlier salafiyya, however, were predominantly rationalist Asharis. During an interview in Jordan, one Salafi emphasized this distinction by citing Muhammad Abduh’s interpretation of the jinn, a creature referenced in the Qur’an. According to this respondent, Abduh’s understanding of the jinn as microbes or germs demonstrates his rationalist credentials: not only does it indicate a metaphorical approach to the Qur’an, but it also implies the influence of the West on his thinking.17 Muhammad Abduh and other similar thinkers are frequently excoriated as deviant rationalists. Some go as far as to claim they were British agents, planted to specifically undermine the purity of Islam."
(ref: http://archives.cerium.ca/IMG/pdf/WIKTOROWICZ_2006_Anatomy_of_the_Salafi_Movement.pdf ,Page-212)
Many more proofs can be found
Ejaz92 (talk) 14:22, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
@Heroeswithmetaphors: I noticed that you redirected "Islamic extremist groups" to this page. Is there any distinction between Islamism and "Islamic extremism"? Jarble (talk) 16:02, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
@Heroeswithmetaphors: Why does Islamic extremist groups redirect to Islamism instead of Islamic extremism? Jarble (talk) 20:54, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
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People seem to be very inclined to removing parties or groups they don't perceive as extremists or terrorists from the list near the bottom of the article. Are we listing Islamic extremists and terrorist groups? If yes, the list does not belong in this article because this article doesn't define Islamism as the same as Islamic extremism. Or are we listing organisations which fall into the definition of Islamism as put forth in this article (even the moderate interpretations like Moderation and Development Party in Iran and Justice and Development Party (Turkey) (AKP))? I just added an intro sentence for that section defining exactly what we're listing, but wanted more discussion before adding more groups. If a lot of people disagree with me that we should add AKP and MDP and other theocratic parties here, I think the definition of Islamism should be made far clearer in the article, since those two groups use Muslim identity politics to gain power, or have been widely described as such by others. --BurritoBazooka (talk) 20:09, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
Inasmuch as this is an English Language article, why do we have Arabic and Urdu characters in the introduction without including their English (Latin Alphabet) transliterations? This is typically done for foreign alphabets such as Greek. For example, in the Wikipedia article on Christ, the title is followed by the Greek source "ριστός", which is then Anglicized as "Christós". English speakers cannot ordinarily be expected to understand these entries without an Anglicized translation or transliteration. I am not suggesting that those non-English characters be removed, as they present valuable subsidiary information, however, it would be helpful to the reader should a competent editor add an English, i.e. Latin alphabet, transliteration. Tresmegistus (talk) 01:16, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
Hello.
I have found various surveys that examine the views of Muslims around the world regarding different issues, including how many that prefer a system of Sharia law and its various applications.
Of particular interest was a survey in 2013 from the highly respected PEW Research Center, which had performed interviews with 38000 Muslims in 39 different predominantly Islamic countries.
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/
I believe that it is in the public interest, and in line with Wikipedia's ideal role as an unbiased fact-based educator, to showcase the relevant information matter-of-fact without any distortions.
Thanks in advance for any help. David A (talk) 13:43, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
A question: Would it be more appropriate if I write a "statistical surveys" section for this page instead? David A (talk) 14:59, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
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Santasa99 deletes cited material saying that BH is an islamist state, with this comment: "(really, what should we quote, 2 obituaries as refs? 1 contradicting other - Editors need to prove its verifiability & notability WP:UNDUE ! not to mention, even if not contradictory, obituaries r insufficient for such claim of profound consequences.)"
Santasa99: Are you saying that BH is not an islamist state, and that is why you are deleting this material? Or are you deleting it because its inclusion gives WP:UNDUE weight to the source, even if the claim is true?
I have the impression that you have a dog in this race - most of the edits you've made seem to be related to former Yugoslavia. Are you pushing a POV?
FWIW, I will now give up here - I don't have time for wikipolitics, I'm not interested in wiki lawyering. I just try to make small improvements when I see defects in articles. MrDemeanour (talk) 07:43, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
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As has been noted in the section "Relation to Islam" Islamism is a controversial term. One could even argue that it is a typically Eurocentric colonialist term which prescribes Muslims the nature of their belief: On the one hand there is the good Islam, on the other hand and there is evil Islamism. This implies a philosophical question: Is Evil an essential part or the basic nature of Islam, as asserted by its critics? I do not know whether there has been done any serious - non-polemical - philosophical research on an academic level on this topic, but to me it seems clear that the answer to this question will be of prime importance for political decision making. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.95.59.132 (talk) 10:10, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Yes, but why is this political agenda not called Islam by western thinkers? The point is it is called Islam by those Muslims westerners call Islamists. What if we follow the logic of Islamists and view Islamism as true Islam and what western thinkers call Islam as an 'impure' Islam 'contaminated' by Judeo-Christian and Enlightenment values? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.95.59.132 (talk) 20:13, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
I will do some research on this, but it will take some time. Methodologically I suggest the following: Since Islam came about (and until at least its classical area) developed within an predominantly Christian, Jewish, Gnostic and Pagan environment the first question to ask will be what is genuine about Islam? Does Islam have anything Christianity, Judaism, Gnosticism and Paganism do not have? If yes, is this genuine Islamic core what westerners call Islamism or is it what they call Islam? And what did the inventors of the term Islamism do with this core? If, on the other hand, Islam will turn out to be a 100% composite or patchwork religion the question will be why did the inventors of the term Islamism choose certain patches of Islam to be Islamistic and others to be Islamic? What is the agenda behind this? I do not know yet to what extent this kind of interreligious research has been done on Islam and the Qur'an. But I will find out. One thing is sure since these kind of questions are hotly debated for about 200 years now with regard to Christianity and Judaism (leading authorities being here for instance Peter Machinist from Harvard regarding the Hebrew Bible and the late Martin Hengel from Tubingen regarding the New Testament) the Wikipedia article will not deliver a final answer. Does anyone know who the leading authority for research on the Qur'an and Islam within their Christian, Jewish, Gnostic and Pagan backgrounds is? To my knowledge David Nirenberg from Chicago currently is dealing with these kind of issues in his research project "History as Prophecy." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.95.59.132 (talk) 09:34, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
I have done some bibliographic research and come to the conclusion that it is not yet possible to deal with the philosophical implications of the term Islamism on an academic level. While there are a lot of opinions of writers, journalists, reverends, politicians, etc. out there on the topic, all of them biased, I have found almost nothing that meets academic standards. The only exception are the publications of the German orientalist Tilman Nagel. However, almost nothing by Tilman Nagel is translated into English. Tilman Nagel is a well known critic of Islam as well as an open freemason. In order to be able to deal with his research one needs to know Islamic sources in their original languages. Since I am not able to read Arabic, etc. I will not write about the books and articles of Prof. Nagel. However, he would be a starting point, even if one does not agree with him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.95.59.132 (talk) 14:08, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
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Sex segregation is the bloodline of Islam/Islamism.--98.88.130.250 (talk) 18:22, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
Per WP policy (WP:V, WP:NOR), to be added here, a definition has to match the phrasing given by some reliable source. It does not seem to appear in any of the citations. If you believe it does, please quote below the exact passage where it appears. Adding more citations that do not support the added content does not help you meet WP policy, so please stop trying to readd improper citations that have already failed verification. Eperoton (talk) 16:58, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
The body of the article has a reasonably extensive discussion of the diverse uses of the term "Islamism", but the lead doesn't do a good job summarizing it. The definition right away makes the misstep of asserting that Islamism is a "movement", when it is rather a term that is used with various meanings and can refer to many different movements. I'll start by replacing the definition, which is sourced to weak tertiary sources, by a summary of tertiary sources which are also secondary (i.e., written by academic specilists - see WP:PSTS). Eperoton (talk) 17:44, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
@2A1ZA: It's not clear what the "Generally speaking" in the source refers to, but there's no indication that it refers to "Western media". Please explain 1) why you think we should highlight an opinion column, which is not a WP:RS; 2) what value it would add to all the definitions we already have in that section. Thanks. Eperoton (talk) 16:59, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
@Eperoton: The term "Islamism" has a pretty sharp meaning/definition in general Western media usage. I am not sure why you object to stating this in the lead, but an intro suggesting that "nobody really knows what the term means, its usage must be some form of racist hate against Muslim people" is contrary to well sourced reality and misleading. And even if you passionately wish to defend the lead as you made it against such statement of the pretty sharp meaning/definition in general Western media usage, then at least move it to the text body instead of blank deletion. I will re-insert, with this source that is fine or with more, if I quickly find one of the many around. -- 2A1ZA (talk) 17:05, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
I happily added an additional source, an Washington Post piece which is all about "What do we mean by ‘Islamist’?". -- 2A1ZA (talk) 17:22, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
From the OED
Islamist NOUN
An advocate or supporter of Islamic militancy or fundamentalism: ‘radical Islamists’
ADJECTIVE
Relating to, advocating, or supporting Islamic militancy or fundamentalism: ‘hardline Islamist groups’ ‘Islamist ideology’
So, no, it is not just about Sharia law.Slatersteven (talk) 19:09, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
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The results from the largest statistical Muslim opinion poll ever made, interviewing 38000 Muslims in 39 different countries. Among other things, 84% of the population of Afghanistan want all "adulterers" to be stoned to death:
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/
42% of young Muslims in France, and 35% of young Muslims in Britain support suicide bombings:
http://www.pewresearch.org/files/old-assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60
Further information about the subject. Among other things, 59% of all Palestinians support suicide bombings:
33% of Muslims students in France are sympathetic towards terrorism:
There are 23000 Jihadists in Britain:
Only 34% of British Muslims would contact the police if somebody they knew had been involved with terrorism:
http://www.icmunlimited.com/polls/icm-muslims-survey-for-channel-4/
17000 French Muslims are known to be potential terrorists:
18884 Belgian Muslims are known to have connections to terrorism:
The Jihadists are winning the propaganda warfare with western countries, which drastically increases radicalisation, and turns it harder to stop:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-39448987
The Islamic State has 30000 Internet pages that spread its propaganda:
A study about jihadism and islamic radicalisation in the western countries:
https://icct.nl/publication/fear-thy-neighbor-radicalization-and-jihadist-attacks-in-the-west/
21% of Syrians support ISIS:
https://www.statista.com/chart/4227/support-for-isis-in-muslim-countries/
Europol reports that the Islamic State is radicalising Muslim immigrants into jihadists:
Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States are directly inciting Islamist extremism in Europe via their thousands of Wahhabist/Salafist mosques:
The Saudi-financed Salafist/Wahhabist mosques in Germany are even too extremist for Syrians:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-germany-mosques-insig-idUSKCN12S0HE
Saudi Arabia and Qatar directly finance and give logistics aid to the Islamic State terrorist organisation:
The Global Gender Gap Report for 2016. The Islamic countries are at the bottom of the list:
http://reports.weforum.org/global-gender-gap-report-2016/rankings/
64% of the men in Egypt admit to having sexually harrassed women:
Saudi Arabia has been elected into the United Nations women's rights council:
https://www.unwatch.org/no-joke-u-n-elects-saudi-arabia-womens-rights-commission/
Over 60% of the populations of Austria, France, and Belgium want a complete stop for Muslim immigration:
https://www.chathamhouse.org/expert/comment/what-do-europeans-think-about-muslim-immigration#
Several statistics regarding what Europeans think about Islam, terrorism, and national security:
https://global.handelsblatt.com/politics/looking-to-germany-to-protect-the-world-order-779939/
How the Islamic State indoctrinates children:
240 textbooks in United Nations sponsored schools in Palestine teach the Muslim children to murder Jews:
Iran with nuclear weapons would be a bigger threat than Syria and North Korea combined:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/iran-is-a-bigger-threat-than-syria-and-north-korea-combined-1492210411
The ongoing genocide on Christians in the Middle-East will likely have exterminated all of them within 10 years:
http://www.acnuk.org/persecuted
13 Islamic countries where atheism is punished by death:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/10/atheists-death-penalty-_n_4417994.html
10 countries where homosexuality is punished by death:
The Islamic countries where apostasy is punished by death:
https://www.loc.gov/law/help/apostasy/
Bill Gates says that bioterrorism is one of the greatest existential threats to humanity, alongside nuclear war and global warming:
http://money.cnn.com/2017/02/18/technology/bill-gates-bio-terrorism/index.html
The Muslim Brotherhood spends a great amount of money on lobbying, to avoid the terrorist designation:
http://mobile.wnd.com/2017/03/muslim-brotherhood-spending-millions-to-fight-terror-designation/
David A (talk) 15:46, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
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I do on a personal level have full empathy for every citizen of Turkey who might feel embarrassed by seeing mentions of AKP/Erdogan promotion of Islamism in this article. However, as the topic has numerous coverage in media for many years, it cannot simply be ignored from an encyclopedic approach to Islamism. You might wish to improve the article by elaboration, but bulk deletion cannot be an option. -- 2A1ZA (talk) 11:59, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
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The article here is written in the same vain as "jihad".
Jihad does not mean war and killing for the sake of Allah, it means the struggle to practice ones faith. Yet the meaning has changed and become very specific. Just because other people are using the word as propaganda (Both ISIL and various newscasters) it doesn't mean you change the original meaning.
In the same vain, a Islamist is synonymous with a Muslim which is synonymous to Islam. A Islamist is someone who follows Islam and a Islamist view would regard the thoughts of the sharia of Allah as stated in the book of the recitation, the Quran.
If you have a lack of understanding of Islam, then the authors of the page should not be writing it, because it's clear they don't understand. Anything that is Islamist is backed up with the Quran and yet the Quran is hardly used as a references for most Islamic articles.
Marcramarcram (talk) 18:35, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
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What is this matter that atheists are being considered as terrorist?[edit]Recently I came to know a spine chilling news that atheists are being considered as terrorists in Arab. Whats the matter? And such a serious matter should be immediately entered in Wikipedia. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-declares-all-atheists-are-terrorists-in-new-law-to-crack-down-on-political-dissidents-9228389.html 2405:204:4313:D858:9C42:A500:6274:3CED (talk) 19:01, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
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I notice the article seems to be lacking information about Islamism in European countries. Given a rise in Islamophobia across the continent, many Muslim-dominant and Muslim-focused parties have emerged. These should be included in the article, painting a picture of how diverse the Islamist movement is and what its priorities, structures, etc. look like based on differing regions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Noahroos (talk • contribs) 18:47, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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The most ridiculous thing about the whole moslem thing is that Allah is Jesus and they are just a schismatic sect that has been utterly corrupted by their Sheiks, Imams and clerics. It has always just been a power and money grab that they have tortured the earth with for over 1,300 years. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.146.83.207 (talk) 15:51, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
The quote from Maududi that User:Iskandar323 deleted is found in more than one posting of a full text of the work Towards Understanding Islam. Here is another not from archive.org: https://zulkiflihasan.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/towardsunderstanding.pdf It is from a blog of a DR. ZULKIFLI HASAN, but looking at the posting (of an e-book published by UKIM Dawah Centre) there certainly seems to be no reason to declare it "unreliable". --Louis P. Boog (talk) 17:21, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
The quote from Maududi you keep deleting is found in more than one posting of a full text of the work Towards Understanding Islam. Here is another not from archive.org: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Islamism&diff=next&oldid=1134872162 There certainly seems to be no reason to declare it "unreliable". --Louis P. Boog (talk) 17:21, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
The quote from Maududi you keep deleting is found in more than one posting of a full text of the work Towards Understanding Islam. Here is another not from archive.org: https://zulkiflihasan.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/towardsunderstanding.pdf It is from a blog of a DR. ZULKIFLI HASAN, but the looking at the posting (of an e-book published by UKIM Dawah Centre) there certainly seems to be no reason to declare it "unreliable". --Louis P. Boog (talk) 17:21, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
This definition:
has got to go. --Louis P. Boog (talk) 18:44, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
@Iskandar323 The material was a copy-paste before, until Louis P. Boog recently expanded the Islamist Shi'ism page, a seperate article detailing on the topic. Moreover, Iranian revolution is already mentioned in the History section which makes this WP:REPETITION.
There are many other sub-sections which are either summarised or blanked in this page, and these topics are explained in other articles. Example: "Rise of Islamism by country" section is blanked and it has a seperate page. I dont see the point in expanding an Iran-centric section regarding a topic already detailed in another page; and this page is focused on Islamism worldwide. This article is not discussing regional Islamist movements; there are many other pages for that; but I think this article emphasizes an international perspective.
-- Shadowwarrior8 (talk 6:21, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
@Iskandar323 No response? In that case, I shall proceed to blank the section.
Relevant contents can be inserted into other sections. -- Shadowwarrior8 (talk 8:01, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
The text says: Syrian Sunni cleric Muhammad Rashid Riḍā, a fervent opponent of Westernization, Zionism and nationalism, advocated Sunni internationalism through revolutionary restoration of a pan-Islamic Caliphate to politically unite the Muslim World.
I can’t access the sources quoted at the end of the sentence but do they honestly support this assertion? I am somewhat surprised because Albert Hourani and others (I think Elizabeth Thompson as well) have argued Rida’s conceptualisation of the caliphate was framed in nationalistic terms. Interested if anyone can enlighten? Yr Enw (talk) 09:50, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
Wikipedia prefers common terminology, not formal; certainly not when the terminology changes direct quotes such as those from this article. –Skywatcher68 (talk) 21:59, 1 April 2024 (UTC)