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There are other Seventh Day denominations, therefore I don't believe that this article should be from the Seventh-day Adventist series. Machadoug (talk) 13:41, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
This article is going really well. I'm now fully persuaded that it deserves to exist and is not a content fork from Sabbath in Christianity. Thanks to Colin and other contributors for your work. Tonicthebrown 09:56, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
As you can see from my recent edits, I've been giving (disambiguation of) Sabbath articles a lot of thought, and I'm familiar with the debate. I'd like to broaden the scope of this article by renaming it "Sabbath in seventh-day churches". It is my belief there needs to be a lot more discussion of seventh-day Christianity that does not tread heavily on the Jewish Sabbath concepts (of course Messianic Judaism would be discussed); and I think that would be the best title and this the best article to build from. ("Seventh-day Sabbath" would not work, e.g.) I see there is a section here already for influence between SDA and other groups, and I'm talking about expanding that a lot, not so much as to drown out the SDA, but enough to give all the other churches due weight somewhere. (Perhaps someone has a better site for this content.)
Well, think about it and respond here. When I finish disambiguating "Sabbath", there will be a lot of links pointing here that are not strictly SDA. I think it would be good (1) to perform the move, (2) to redo the links to the new name, making a list of the articles linked from, and (3) to beef up this article's content by reference to the list. There is a lot to build from. Thanks for your consideration. JJB 12:21, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks Colin! There being no other comment, I'm likely to go ahead with Sabbath in seventh-day churches in the near future. After the new Template:Adventism reminded me to check here, I also thought of Seventh-day Sabbath in Christianity, which I would make a redirect at the same time. Repeat that steps (2)-(3) will also need to follow, and some reorganization and touchup as well. JJB 00:11, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
That's good too. My intent with last year's title (which I did not seek WP:RS for) was to limit it to Christianity, but my experience to date is that the word "Sabbatarianism" is exclusively Christian, so that's a wash. "Seventh-day church" has many more Google hits than "churches" or "Sabbatarianism"; and "churches" beats "Sabbatarianism" by 98-69, wins Google news by 29-0, and loses Google books by 39-48. So at this second I favor "churches". If we move, it requires requesting a housekeeping deletion first. Influence of the COG branches is visible. Other thoughts? JJB 03:16, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
Having considered the state of Sabbath articles closely, I think there is still one topic to create, namely Biblical Sabbath. Currently this phrase redirects to the summary article "Sabbath" even though that article includes many other Sabbath adaptations that are not Biblical. A new article would compile the Biblical references to Sabbath in a thorough, orderly way, and give all the main viewpoints and interpretations of each passage (compare creation according to Genesis, figs in the Bible, wells in the Bible, etc.). None of the current articles do either of these, because they are quite rightly focused on Sabbath in this or that mainstream viewpoint. However, the notion of "Sabbath as the Bible describes it, without making judgments in favor of any viewpoint" is a topic frequently discussed but lacking. No need to warn me about POV risks, because I am already on duty policing those. It is just my observation that, very often, a WP editor wants to refer just to that notion, "Biblical Sabbath with essentially no POV", and has no recourse to do so (as noted, the summary "Sabbath" article is not Biblically limited, and the Biblically based articles give only one POV each). Particularly, there are many links to "Sabbath" that should very clearly, in context, be directed to Biblical Sabbath, and permitting the weaker link is suboptimal and easily remediable. Also, many of the IP contributors to "Sabbath" would do better to have such a separate article; and some of the debates about where to put this or that apologetic (if at all) would be more readily solved if there were a central article. I will be happy to move this forward, but I wanted to get a couple more opinions first, to confirm my belief that this is a good division of topics. Cross-posted to Shabbat, Sabbath in Christianity, and Sabbath in seventh-day churches. JJB 05:45, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Disagreeing strongly with the logic of the recent split and dab of Sabbath in Christianity, I believe a re-merge would be more harmonious, while the overdue reorg of this sister article can be done at the same time. Here is the proposal from the inelegantly titled new Talk:Christian Sabbath and Sunday observance:
Here's a proposed logical reorganization of affected articles. Using O for Christian Sabbath and Sunday observance, T for Christian Sabbath theology, and S for the extant Sabbath in seventh-day churches (which, we have noted, has always needed reorg ever since it was expanded from an SDA-only article):
Sabbath in Christianity (rejoining two articles split without consensus):
Sabbath in seventh-day churches:
Biblical Sabbath absorbs 7th-day theology fm T2, transfer theology fm T3.1, non-Sabbatarian fm T4.2.1-2, each with balance added; the gigantic T4 footnote insertion should be researched for dropping or shortening; S2.2 should be shortened to a summary of its article on law and any key text moved there; and some of history S3 should move to general SDA history.
During the first week my edits will only be ordinary improvement preparatory to a move and subject to WP:BRD. JJB 20:15, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
Having made a number of changes to the lead, I now find it necessary to leave behind a talk page arena where any fallout can be discussed. In this article and the many others dealing with the Sabbath, I find that there is absolutely no understanding of Orthodoxy in relation to this subject. The result is messy in terms of the articles, and because of pervasive western norms, it appears that understanding and discussion are almost certain to be required in order to iron out details that will be easy to misunderstand.
Even so, there is not as much disagreement between east and west here as it may look like at first, and it does not strike deeply into theology. Let me try to summarize a few points of Orthodox teaching.
I hope this clarifies how Orthodox perspectives and practices relate but differ from western varieties. The articles make many rather sweeping or inclusive statements that fit only western situations, but the correction does not require much in the way of presenting viewpoints. More often, it requires something in the way of presenting the right separations of views, most of which are shared by one or more western groups as well. It's the way things are now divided either/or that doesn't fit the most. I'll point project Christianity here as a tie-in for wherever these issues arise in future editing. Evensteven (talk) 23:31, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
I am eliminating the statement in the lead paragraph as to this point, along with the two (ancient) sources, which do not confirm the statement. Both sources speak of the presbyter Sabbatius (not derived from "sabbath"), a Christian of Jewish origin who retained Jewish practices on his own. Sabbatius ventured then to introduce (insert) certain observances of the Jewish Passover into the Christian feast of Pascha, for which he was condemned and removed from office, and from which reason he is mentioned in the histories. Sozomen calls it a Sabbatian (not Sabbatarian) heresy and dispute.
It was rather late in history (after the Council of Nicaea) for any Judaizing practice to occur in the Church on this scale. The very first Christians are thought (very naturally) to have taken Jewish rites along with them and to continue using them as they worshipped, after confessing Christ. Many continued to worship at the synagogues, until in the late 60s the Jews themselves expelled them. And it took time for the Church to formulate its own worship services. Also naturally, it was predominantly in the east, and especially in areas close to Palestine, that there were later contacts and associations between Jews and Judaism and early Christians. Development of Church services and breaks with the Jews came sporadically and over time. Even the issue of a unified celebration of Pascha by all Christians on a single specified day was one hot topic for the Council of Nicaea (325). One can presume that the earliest Christians observed the Sabbath partly by attending worship in the synagogues. But they also celebrated some form of Liturgy or service of Eucharist, and from very early times there was consideration that the proper day for doing that was Sunday. I have not heard it said in early sources, but it seems possible that in early days some Christians observed both Sabbath and Eucharist, perhaps in different places, perhaps on different days. But also very early in Church history, Christianity spread out far away from Palestine, and among the gentiles who were also converted, even in the first generation. To them, Jewish practice would have made much less sense, and among them, any significant Jewishness that was not a part of Christianity would have dissipated the faster. If nothing else, the issues at Nicaea make it clear that Jewish practice and influence was not of significance in the west by that time, so any distinctly Sabbatarian observance among Christians could hardly have involved "all or most".
The modern-day Orthodox retention of the Sabbath on Saturday, and the start of its daily liturgical cycle at (about) sunset, "evening" as is often said, were both of earliest origin, and clearly aligned with Christian origins within Judaism, and its outward forms of worship and calendar. Nevertheless, the modern-day observance of Sunday as the day of resurrection, and characteristic celebration of Liturgy on Sunday, date from as far back as we can find any documentary records. Eastern Christianity in general, neither historically nor today, was/is in direct alignment with modern Sabbatarian theories or practice. Those developed in the west in relatively modern times, in reaction to the Catholicism of RC, and in an attempt to understand ancient practice which does not quite match up with the tradition continued from that time. The editorial statement I have removed from the article may have been a modern Sabbatarian-looking construct built upon that point of view, but it is certainly not in the ancient sources, who only speak of discipline, removal, dispute, and heresy. Evensteven (talk) 01:27, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
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this sentence "The Roman Catholic church especially followed a policy to take over the pagan festivals endeared to the people by tradition, and to give them a Christian name, and slowly introduced the day of the weekly festival of the sun into the church.[4]" is referenced with a source that assumes what it wants to prove. This is not a good Wiki source, if the article is supposed to be neutral. Unless the point is fully discussed including those many Christian sources that claim that the Sunday worship is biblical and the Saturday worship is Judaizing (or whatever you want to call it). --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 18:30, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
This article might need more context to explain why Saturday is meant to be the seventh day of the week and Sunday is the first, when the vast majority of the world consider Saturday and Sunday to be the 6th and 7th days of the week, respectively. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.68.199.176 (talk) 05:59, 5 March 2017 (UTC)