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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 15 January 2020 and 6 May 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Noahjee777.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 09:18, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
See
-- 92.206.11.66 (talk) 15:49, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
BigCat82 has removed valid, sourced material from this wikipage describing bear-tiger interactions, including:
Brown bear generally dominate Siberian tigers in disputes over kills.[1] Indeed, Russian researchers have identified specific "satellite bears" who regularly "follow tigers over extensive periods of time, sequentially usurping kills" by tracking the tigers in the spring snow.[2]
The justification given by BigCat82 for this removal is that we should use a more reliable source, such as those from a peer-reviewed journal. However, both of the sources given above are most definitely reliable sources as well. The first source (Miquelle et al) is a scientific source from multiple active scientists who study tiger interactions in the wild; it is chapter from a scientific book. This is most definitely a reliable source. In fact, Miquelle is the same researcher who is cited on this very same wikipage for tiger-wolf interactions - which BigCat82 (and other recent editors) of this page appear to have no problem with (Miquelle claims that tigers dominate wolves in one area of the Russia Far East). The second source (Kerley et al) is also from active scientific researchers and is a valid source as well.
In addition, BigCat82 has made the claim (comment on his edit at 20:46 on July 6, 2014) that: "Biased - source clearly stated of all encounters 50% resulted in the death of the bear, 27.3% resulted in the death of the tiger and in 22.7% of encounters both animals parted ways. So in short bears usually got killed by tigers.)"
I am not sure how BigCat82 can make such a conclusion that "in short bears usually got killed by tigers" - the source itself definitely does not make such a claim. If the source states that tigers get killed in 27.3% of tiger-bear interactions and bears get killed in 50%, such interactions definitely do not result in bears "usually" getting killed by tigers. 50% is not the same as "usually", especially if 27.3% of cases result in tiger deaths as well. In reality, both species can be killed in such encounters - which is exactly what I stated in my earlier comments on July 4 (please see the history of the edits).
Also, BigCat82 (in his edit on 21:13 on July 6) claims that Geptner 1972 gives "various weight & age info on the bears killed by tigers". The source is Heptner and Sludski's four-volume Mammals of the Soviet Union. (see Volume II. Part 2. Hyenas and Cats and Volume II Part 1a Canids and Ursids). This source is avaiable for download here: http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/bibliography/46297#/summary. While this source does have a line stating "a tiger will even tackle a bear, sometime one even much larger than itself" and does state "over 15" cases of tigers killing bears (not 15 - my mistake), it does not state that a tiger can acually kill such a large bear, and does not describe any such case actually happening. This source describes several cases of both bears killing tigers and tigers killing bears. In no case does it describe the size and age of bears killed by tigers. None of the bears killed by tigers described by this source has a known age. As for size, it does state that large bears "escape the tiger's claws" after being chased from their dens (page 177) - that is the closest it gets. None of the bears killed by tigers described by this source has a stated size either. I am not sure how BigCat82 is making the claim that bears of "various weights and ages" are being killed by tigers - this source definitely does not make this claim.
Also, Bigcat 82 wants to count "unrecorded cases" of tigers killing bears (see his comment on 20:33 on July 6). Unrecorded cases do not constitute reliable evidence.
Also, Heptner and Sludski most definitely does state that tiger-bear interactions are rare and of no significance. See Volume II Part 1a Canids and Ursids (page 671): "Since tigers are almost extinct, such cases are rare and have no actual significance." This same source also states that most bears attacked by tigers are attacked "in winter, in the hibernaculum." (same page 671).
Finally, on the Asiatic elephant page Bigcat82 recently made the truly astonishing claim that "adult asiatic elephants always flee from the presence of tigers". See his comment at 19:34 on June 21: "Rm unsourced misinfo - in fact the opposite is true, adult asiatic elephants always flee from the presence of tigers". Bigcat82 did not give a source for this claim that adult Asiatic elephants always flee from tigers.
In conclusion, some of the edits made by BigCat82 have not followed reliable, sourced materials and should be removed. Good day. 72.80.193.185 (talk) 13:24, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
72.80.196.223 (talk) 19:02, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
72.80.196.223 (talk) 20:49, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
Editing conflict / IP vowing / persistent vandalism / personal attack. see page protection dated Aug 11, 2014
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Here is an interesting link that contains links to scientific, peer reviewed studies. In general, tigers avoid adult bears, especially the males and there are plenty of examples of adult male tigers killed by bears, both males and FEMALES. Bigcat82 is removing sourced material because he disagrees with it. Here is some proof. The links are contained in the article. Adult brown bears dominate tigers, especially males.: http://www.ofcats.com/2008/05/siberian-tiger.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.29.218.249 (talk) 09:23, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
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The LINKS the site provided were studies from peer reviewed scientific journals. That's why I put it HERE, and NOT as a source on the article page. Peer reviewed really is pretty meaningless anyway. It assumes the study was done without an agenda or bias, and it's pretty hard to replicate the results in many scientific fields, rendering the "review" almost worthless. Many times, the scientist seeking to get their study reviewed gets to hand pick those that review it. Not a personal attack, just trying to point out that you are removing materials that are ALSO peer reviewed studies just because YOU don't agree with them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.127.217.72 (talk) 07:24, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
Purely based on youtube and fan sites? I dare say you are mistaken. They are AGAIN from peer reviewed scientific studies, some of them the SAME ones you are citing. You are incorrect here. I am FAR from the only one claiming you are removing valid, sourced material from peer reviewed (as worthless as that process is) studies. I put LINKS to the studies here and you erased them. They were NOT going to be used in the article.
As far as undo weight goes, you don't have any problem with the tiger/wolf interactions having nearly as much content. What we have here is an attack against NPOV in my honest opinion. Of course tigers kill bears and predate on them. The sourced materials (peer reviewed) states that almost entirely consists of cubs and 400 pound and under (sub adult) bears. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.127.217.72 (talk) 07:29, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
So this wikipedia page use story books such as «tiger in the snow» as «reliable evidence»? This is laughable. And tiger fans that act as kids, shouldn´t be even allowed to post here. We see them filling youtube with 5 or 6 exactly identical videos with exactly the same crap stories and zero publications about conservation videos. This wikipedia page looks like a fight for kids, and as researcher/conservationist this is really sad to me to read this. As much as I like felines, a really big brown bear is a beast, that even the biggest siberian tiger would normally avoid, unless want to die stupidly. That´s why it makes sense, that tigers killing bears, AFAIK, involve 400 pound (or under) bears. Now, this wikipedia should focus less on stories (also very likely to fuel tiger bone industry that´s destroying tiger populations) and more on conservation.
Ok, I see that the problems are the same we have a fanboy directing this page and not someone who has knowledge on the subject. Fortunately, real scientists read the sources and get surprised that the information that´s there isn´t the same that´s posted here or that things aren´t that clear as this wikipedia wants to sound. Impartiality is non existent and stories that «tigers can tackle bears much larger than themselves..» are hunter stories, ambiguous and unsupported data. Being said that tigers «can» it doesn´t mean that they were reported to do it. There´s not a single scientific report about that. However I know for sure that sun bears can kill tigers much bigger than themselves, because that have happened (if someone wants the scientific article describing it, the original article is on the web, but I can post it here later, before abandon this page and direct this wikipedia to the wikipedia staff about abusive and non reliable information and will publish blog with scientific data, replying to all the points posted here). However, I won´t use that sun bear incident, has a proof of something. I´m not a fool. However, this situation is supported unlike those hunter stories of tigers that possibly can do this or that. Tigers are lone predators they risk much less than some people think.
Plus those irreal percentages of bears on the tiger menu haven´t been supported by any modern scientific study. Even 8,5% must be rare and ocasional and highly based on very young animals (as usual for tigers).
Also that statement (on feeding habits) that tigers take bears over 450 kgs, is hilarious!
Amur bears with that weight are very rare and they wouldn´t be vulnerable to tiger attacks actually it´s the other way around.
Tigers with erratic behavior that attack bears blindly don´t last long in siberia taiga. A radiocolared tigress was «recently» killed because of that. It seems clear that both species benefit each other, by killing the sick, disease and weak individuals of both. Male adults of both brown bears and siberian tigers have advantage over the adult females of both, and adult males avoid each other. If anything, brown bears would have advantage due to sheer bulk and size advantage.
Chapter 19 published on WCS Siberia (http://www.wcsrussia.org/en-us/projects/siberiantigerproject.aspx) search for chapter 19, there it´s clearly stated in all the years of investigation, NO adult male brown bear were reported to be killed by tigers. Curiously I do remember about 1 (scientific) case of an adult male tiger being killed by amur brown bear, but not the other way around (I have the sources and I´ll post it here). Though this case is very well known. Almost surely that the same author that posts on this insignificant wikipedia page and deletes the information that he doesn´t like, knows it.
This obsessive and useless fanboyism behavior, in nothing helps siberian tigers.
Oh my. I hadn't noticed that this kind of thing has been percolating for some while here.
@121.97.207.121: - I just removed all material that was only sourced to http://www.ofcats.com/2008/05/siberian-tiger.html. Not only is this factually unreferenced material from the comments on a blog (broken Photobucket links don't exactly qualify), you also copypasted the entire text, which you are not allowed to to do - see WP:COPYVIO. This on top of the questionable decision to adorn an encyclopedia article with half a dozen accounts in lurid detail about a sub-topic that is at most tangentially important. Can we please resist turning this article into "MonsterFight: BEAR vs TIGER!" ?--Elmidae (talk) 12:51, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
I am in agreement with this. Many of the tiger fan boy assertions come from unsourced or invalidly sourced material that constitute original research. It's funny that Bigcats, the tiger fan boy who ruined all tiger and bear pages, had no problem with these additions and allowed absolutely ridiculous claims of bears constituting over 40% of a tiger's diet in some areas, when the valid, peer reviewed studies came up with a figure of brown bears constituting 1.5% of a tigers diet. The cherry picking and original research makes it look as if tigers dominate and prey on bears of all sizes rather than the accepted scientific consensus of tigers preying on cubs and young adult females. There has never been a documented case of a tiger preying on or killing an adult male bear. Always conveniently left out are the five known cases of adult male tigers killed by bears. This article, due to the tiger fan boys such as bigcats is full of cherry picked data, original research, and undue weight given to minority opinions. The truth is tigers eat bears, though almost always cubs and sub adults with a few smaller adult females taken at times. Where tigers have been radio collared and found to be predating on bears, not a single bear taken weighed over 330 pounds. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.211.216.135 (talk) 06:39, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
I believe that in the first (top) section of the article, it should be mentioned that the "Siberian Tiger" is a misnomer, as it is located mostly in Korea, China, and Russia's Far East Region, rather than Siberia.Tangleymere (talk) 10:09, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
A user named Leo1pard has added some false and unnecessary information to this page. The most obvious being their false claim that lions are the same size as the largest tiger species, which goes against facts and common knowledge, and add ligers, which are hybrids, not a species, which is unnecessary and already mentioned on the liger page. Based on this users edits and comments, he seems identical to past editors who like to attack animal pages with false information and engage in editing wars. Yet for some reason these edits are not only allowed on this page, but all attempts to fix it were met with simply restoring the information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.24.173.175 (talk) 17:09, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
So I took a look at his sources. At least two of them completely contradict his claims. One states that the tiger is the largest cat species, and another states that the lion is the second biggest cat and is smaller than the tiger. One just goes to a brief page about lion growth with no mention of actual size or comparison to tigers and apparently you have to pay for the full article, so there's no way to verify this source unless you pay for it. The last one is a book in it's entirety(as is the first source already mentioned. Neither is linked to any page containing information that would back him up, and for the first book I found the contradictory information a few pages later) which dates back to 1913 and in it the author pretty much admits he knows little about the sizes of tigers and lions other than what he had heard from others.
So as far as his sources is concerned: Two contradict his claims completely One can't be verified directly and requires payment One is a really old book by someone with limited knowledge on the size of these animals — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:183:C601:C950:CCA7:A7FD:FA22:19B1 (talk) 02:23, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
This is to say that information represented in a way that it would look like original research has been edited, so that there is no OR in it, but at the same time, multiple references have been used to eliminate bias, instead of one reference by Mazák, who did not seem to know about lions weighing 225–249.5 kg (496–550 lb) or more, or about hybrids like ligers, which can outweigh tigers. Leo1pard (talk) 14:31, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
Wow, just...wow. You continue to sink to new lows.
You do realize that Mazak was not the one who originally made the claim that Tigers were the largest cat species. It's a well-known fact and common knowledge amongst anyone who knows anything about animals and is pretty much mentioned everywhere, including SOME OF YOUR OWN SOURCES, who DID know about your allegedly "huge lions". The only reason there was a single source here was because really only one was needed and probably to not spam the top of the page with a laundry list of sources as you just did. And how do you know that Mazak never heard of of them? So basically you are falsely implying that the fact that tigers being the largest cat species was originally claimed by Mazak simply because the only source listed on this page is from him and according to you Mazak "made that claim" because "he didn't know about these 'huge Lions'" and thus imply your list of sources dispute "his" claims. None of which is true. You are deliberately misleading readers of this page to promote your agenda. Not to mention the undue weight given to lions and ligers.
Speaking of your sources, along with two of your previous ones, yet ANOTHER blatantly states that tigers are the largest cat species. On the Big Zoo site there is a Sumatran tiger page, which states that the tiger is the largest cat species(referring to the larger subspecies such as the Bengal tiger, referred to as the Indian tiger on the page, as the Sumatran tiger is smaller, which the page mentions). And there's one source that I swear you only saw mention of a lion "exceeding 500 pounds" and didn't even bother reading the rest. It basically dismisses the "lion over 500 pounds" as unreliable and says that a lion over 400 pounds is "exceptionally large", and makes it clear that these are only the few largest individuals, not the average size of lions. The entire reason for your edits is to promote these "huge lions exceeding 500 pounds" and yet you post a source that pretty says claims of lions exceeding that are unreliable with nothing to back them up and that even a lion exceeding 400 pounds is exceptionally large and uncommon. It's like you aren't expecting anyone to actually look at your sources, or at least all of them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.24.173.175 (talk) 02:16, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
The page Masai lion mentions that it has 2 trinomial names: P. l. massaica and P. l. nubica, and that of Cape lion says that the 'black-maned' Cape lion could be considered as a population of the Transvaal lion, due to their close relationship, even though the latter 2 articles have been kept separate. Leo1pard (talk) 17:37, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
By the way, how many people noticed the overlap of the ranges of the Caspian tiger and Asiatic lion? Leo1pard (talk) 10:32, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
On one hand, studies show that, on average, Bengal tigers are heavier than Southern African lions[1][2] and Siberian tigers.[3][4] On the other hand, the sentence "An average adult male Siberian outweighs an average adult male lion by around 45.5 kg (100 lb)," which was derived from "An average adult male tiger from Northern India or Siberia outweighs an average adult male lion by around 45.5 kg (100 lb)" gives the impression that northern Bengal and Siberian tigers are about the same, on average. Leo1pard (talk) 06:33, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
References
((cite journal))
: Cite journal requires |journal=
(help)
Leo1pard (talk) 06:34, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
See this. Leo1pard (talk) 07:04, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
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Remove duplicate text in the intro section:
"A comparison of data on body weights of Siberian tigers indicates that up to the first half of the 20th century both males and females were on average heavier than post-1970 ones. Today's wild Siberian tigers are lighter than Bengal tigers. Their reduced weight as compared to historical Siberian tigers may be due to a combination of causes: when captured, they were usually sick or injured and involved in a conflict situation with people.[8]"
Restcoser (talk) 13:07, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
While the proposed reclassification of all tigers into only two subspecies has been praised by some, until it has been apparently accepted by a majority of genetic taxonomists, such as by the ITIS group, it seems best to me to leave this proposal only as being described in WP as a "proposal," and not yet taking the liberty of describing it as if it were a "generally accepted fact." Accordingly, I have moved this info to the main Tiger page at: Proposed reclassification of tiger subspecies. Thanks, Warrenfrank (talk) 17:18, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
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Leo1pard (talk) 07:08, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
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I noticed that sometimes people may try to put in information about the Siberian tiger being the biggest tiger. Though a number of WP:reliable sources made this claim, the reality appears to be that it is the biggest tiger in captivity, not necessarily in the wilderness. Please see this, besides links that have been posted there, for additional details, if you are uncertain of what I mean. Leo1pard (talk) 05:07, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
Another setback, I noticed that that a Bengal tiger from north India had a longer skull than even the longest stated skull of any Amur or Manchurian tiger. Leo1pard (talk) 16:08, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
Hi. Sorry to jump in. The discussion on Siberian tiger vs. brown bear interactions is interesting. It is clear that age and size are important factors in the outcome of aggressive encounters. It seems quite clear that the advantage goes to the brown bear in encounters between fully grown male species of each. The loose skin and tissue of the brown bear, larger fixed claws, and an immense advantage in terms of body weight make the outcome clearly to the advantage of the brown bear. Real world encounters obviously involve various weight, sex, and ages, so the outcome can vary depending on those factors. However, there is no question whatsoever, that when we are talking about fully grown male brown bears of 1200 pounds or greater, the bear would prevail even against the largest example of Siberian tiger in most every case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:304:CF0A:CD40:B5C8:A620:C425:EBDE (talk) 05:38, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
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The Amur tiger and the Ussuri brown bear coexist in Russia, both have shown evidence of predation and competition upon one another. There are many detailed accounts and records of tigers attacking and killing bears and vice versa. The conclusion we can draw from these records is that tigers have attacked and killed more bears. The factual book series called Mammals of the Soviet Union describes one instance of a bear killing a tiger. In 1956, a three-year old tiger was killed by a bear in a predatory attack [1]
The factual novel series called Mammals of the Soviet Union cited three different instances of bears killing tigers.
in 1957, a young tiger was killed in a fair fight with a roaming bear.
In 1960, an adult tigress was killed while defending her cubs from a bear.
In 1962, another young tiger was killed in combat with a large bear [2]
Between 1985 and 1996, a mortality study of Siberian tigers was conducted.
It was found that seven tigers were killed by bears in that time period
In 2010, a two and a half-year old tigress named Anya was killed by a bear:
The Kolumbe River basin is perhaps the least accessible area of the reserve, with no trails or cabins. For this reason, on February 17th, Siberian Tiger Project specialists took a helicopter out to the place where Anya’s last location was taken, to determine what went wrong. We had all been hoping that Anya simply lost her collar. However, when our specialists reached the ground, they discovered that Anya had been killed and eaten by a bear.
It is very disappointing to lose a beautiful, healthy young tigress, who had just begun to live on her own, and could have had many litters of cubs in her lifetime. Our only consolation is that hers at least was a natural death.[3]
In 1882, the factual novel called Thirteen Years Among the Wild Beasts of India published multiple accounts of tigers killing bears.
Multiple bears were ambushed and killed by the tiger, including a large female and her cub [4]
The factual novel series called Mammals of the Soviet Union explains an account of a tigress killing a sexually mature female bear and her cubs.
In 1948, a tigress killed a motherly bear and her two yearlings [5]
The factual novel series called Mammals of the Soviet Union describes an account of a bear being killed by a tigress.
In 1961, a 170 kilogram bear was killed by a tigress who raided its den [6]
In 2009, a factual novel called The Better to Eat You With published an account of a bear being killed by a tiger.
The bear was an adult specimen [7]
In 2009, a video uploaded to YouTube showed the finding of a carcass of a large bear that was killed by a tiger.
The video uploader alleged the bear to be a large male weighing 800 to 900 pounds [8] [9]
According to this data, the Amur tiger generally holds the advantage over the Ussuri brown bear in Russia: In the Russian Far East, the Amur tiger (Panthera tigris altaica), brown bear (Ursus arctos) and Asiatic black bear (U. thibetanus) all share the same habitat. These three species all prefer deciduous and mixed wood forests. In the Sikhote-Alin protected area, the relationship between bears and a tiger were studied during extensive telemetry research in the region. During the non-denning period bears scavenged 16.7% of surveyed tiger kills (n=427). Brown bears scavenged tiger kills 6.7 times more often, than Asiatic black bears. The frequency of autumn scavenging by bears was less than spring (X2 = 8.7, df= 1, p= 0.003) and summer (X2 = 10.5, df= 1, p= 0.012). In 44.4% of cases the bears scavenged tiger kills only after the tiger had abandoned the kill site. In at least 4 cases (11.1 %) bears displaced tigers from a kill, while in 4 cases both tigers and bears utilized the kill during the same period. Analysis has shown that 2.1% of bears diet is obtained from tiger kills, 1.4% for brown bears and 0.7% from Asiatic black bears. In 44 recorded encounters between tigers and bears, the tiger initiated contact in 12 cases while the bear initiated contact in 8 cases. Of these encounters, 50% resulted in the death of the bear, 27.3% resulted in the death of the tiger and in 22.7% of encounters both animals survived and parted ways. Records of tigers killing Asiatic black bears are unclear. Tigers can prey on denning bears, and the Asiatic black bear have better protected dens then brown bears. Bears often follow tiger tracks through deep snow for ease of movement, to scavenge tiger kills and to potentially prey on tigers. Tigers, brown bears and Asiatic black bears all use the same mark and rub trees. On page 64 of this document is a study of tiger and brown bear interactions [10]
According to this source, tiger is generally victor However, interest in nature, as a rule, arises from attempts to find answers to "childish" questions. In fairness, it should be noted that the issues of the relationship between the Ussuri tiger and the brown bear still attracted the attention of professionals. Nevertheless, there is not much reliable information about the resolution of conflict situations between the two "masters" of the taiga. S.P. Kucherenko notes that the average tiger is always stronger than the average bear. Of the 17, reliably known to him, cases of fights of a tiger with a brown bear in the Sikhote-Alin in 1965-1976. in 8 cases the animals dispersed, in 6 the tiger defeated, in 3 the bear was defeated. In addition, there were recorded 9 cases of tiger attack on bears in dens (the tiger crushed and ate 7 adult animals and 9 cubs). But a careful analysis of the relationship of these predators, leads the author to the conclusion, that the brown bear is more aggressive (especially in a hungry time). The tiger tries to attack small bears. Tigress, defending cubs, fights with any bear and more often perishes. Based on the materials of the zoologist V.E. Kostoglod, of the 28 cases studied by him, the fights of these two predators, the priority in the attack was on the side of the brown bear. V.E. Kostoglod recorded 7 attacks of brown bears on tigers and 6 attacks of tigers on bears. Of the 28 fights mentioned already between the tiger and the bear, in 11 cases the tiger won, in 9 cases the bear won, in 8 cases the beasts dispersed. Among the 9 dead tigers of adults were 5, the rest - cubs. The data of V.E. Kostoglod about the greater initiative of bears in the power resolution of conflicts with the tiger, were later confirmed by the same SP. Kucherenko, who pointed out, that out of 44 authentically documented cases, the fist initiative in the attack belonged to the bear in 13, the tiger - in nine (in 22 cases, the instigator could not be determined). In the course of these fights, 14 bears and 8 tigers died (in 22 cases the animals parted, having received quite severe wounds). V. Sysoev reports 4 battles of a tiger with a bear (two ended in favour of a bear, one won a tiger and one more beast separated). Okhotovid G. Gorokhov pointed out that out of 10 collisions of adult tigers with a brown bear, in 5 cases the predators diverged, in 3 the tiger won, in 2 bears. V.S. Khramtsov in his work "On the relationship between bears and tigers in the spurs of the Reserve Range" wrote that in 1989-1990, 8 cases of death of white-bears from tigers were established in the Lazovsky Reserve and only one case of the death of a brown bear from the "master of the jungle" was recorded. There were no facts of tiger deaths from bears. A.G. Yudakov and IG Nikolaev, for three seasons of winter stationary observations, only twice faced the facts of tigers eating bears. And then, it was about the white-throated bears. At the same time, according to K.N. Tkachenko, in the tiger he studied, the brown bear accounted for 18.5%, while the share of the white-beared bear was only 14.8%. In general, in the ration of the tiger, the brown bear firmly retained an honourable third place, allowing only wild boar (37%) and izyubra (29.6%) to go forward. Biologist N.N. Rukovsky interviewed 42 hunter-guard of the Primorsky Territory to clarify the relationship between the tiger and the bear. Of these, 7 people answered that the tiger specifically hunted for a bear; Six people said that the bear walks in the footprints of the tiger, collecting the remains of food; 14 - told of fights of a tiger with a bear without a tragic outcome; two remember the cases when the bear strangled the tiger; 11 claimed that the tiger killed the bear. N.N. Rukovsky himself in the footsteps once determined that a brown bear killed a tiger. The bear was very large (it was visible in the footsteps), and the tiger is young - about 4 years old (it was visible on the skull). The very battlefield (broken fir trunks with arm thick, scattered wisps of wool, blood) testified to a long and fierce struggle. N. Rukovsky himself, as well as most other authors, believes that fights between predators occur more often in hungry (for the bear) years, when the connecting rods face tigers near the killed animals. And only in rare cases can a victim become a tiger (most often young). The tiger prefers to hunt not on brown, but on Himalayan bears. The very battlefield (broken fir trunks with arm thick, scattered wisps of wool, blood) testified to a long and fierce struggle. and the tiger is young - about 4 years old (it was visible on the skull). The very battlefield (broken fir trunks with arm thick, scattered wisps of wool, blood) testified to a long and fierce struggle. In conclusion, a few words about the television series "Animal Battles", where allegedly from a scientific standpoint the victory was definitively and irrevocably awarded to a bear. This project demonstrates how television can ditch any good idea, and how with the help of "scientific methods" you can powder your brains. To begin with, the authors of the "Feral Battles" did not bother to get acquainted with the literature on this issue. But it follows from the scientific literature that the tiger is not only inferior to a bear, but even more often it is a winner.[11] 112.118.211.190 (talk) 05:47, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
References
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template. As is, this goes into an inordinate level of detail about one topic which is already addressed to some extent in the article, and I would not change the article without a supporting consensus. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 17:29, 10 September 2018 (UTC)The section "Interspecific predatory relationships" shows that bears and tigers have killed each other, even if not in the same detail as how you described. Leo1pard (talk) 10:29, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
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Refer title Interspecific predatory relationships
A part of original content is : Some studies show that bears frequently track down tigers to usurp their kills, with occasional fatal outcomes for the tiger. A report from 1973 describes twelve known cases of brown bears killing tigers, including adult males; in all cases the tigers were subsequently eaten by the bears.[46][47]
My request is change this part content to : Some studies show that bears frequently track down tigers to usurp their kills, with occasional fatal outcomes for the tiger. A report from 1973 describes twelve known cases of brown bears killing tigers, including Young-adults males; in all cases the tigers were subsequently eaten by the bears.[46][47][1]
& add resource : https://www.researchgate.net/publication/322963058/download
My reason: Refer above resource & The reason is Young-adults tiger (>3 to 5 years) & Prime-adults tiger (>5 to 10 years) & By three years most tigers are close to full adult size , but continue to accumulate weight up to 4-4.5 years of age . Adult males range from 200 to 260 kg, while adult females range from 110 to 180 kg showing a pronounced sexual dimorphism in size . By this stage, the face is no longer cub like with full snout and adult skull proportions. Belly gets rounded, often with a slight sag which increases with age . 119.236.217.147 (talk) 01:21, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
Sorry, but the study you are referring to appears to be about Bengal tigers, rather than Siberian tigers. The authors, Jhala and Sadhu, are from the Wildlife Institute of India, and the tigers shown in the photos are definitely not Siberian tigers, which inhabit the temperate region where Russia, China and Korea meet.[1] Leo1pard (talk) 10:46, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
References
I consider the study quite confusing, taking into account male tigers don't reach their full size till they are 5-6 years old.
Using statistics where there are 2 year 11month-old tigers is not reliable concerning adult tigers.
It's like if we make an statistic on the average height of Croatians taking into account 14 and 15-year old Croatians.
Which are your views in this particular matter? 83.54.182.12 (talk) 14:53, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
I'm referring to the 2005 study by American, Russian, Indian zoologists referred in the section 1.1 (Body Size) of the article.83.63.197.221 (talk) 13:28, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
Tijkil, would you please refrain from changing the infobox and lede classification of subspecies without discussion? Adding the results of new studies to the appropriate section, as you have done now, is great; but there is a higher threshold for the up-front classification, which follows the widely accepted standard. We generally take this to be reflected in the usage of the IUCN and the main taxonomic databases. A 2018 study could hardly be expected to have percolated through all of these yet, and in fact that appears not to be the case. So please hold your horses here; the study is mentioned in the article, as it should be, but we will likely want to wait for general uptake before following a reclassification. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 23:32, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
it seems like its proven now. That is just what we need the scientific consensus to state, outright. Basically, multiple published statements along the line of "As Li et al. (2018) conclusively demonstrated, there remains little doubt that tigers should be classified as six distinct subspecies"; and uptake by the major databases. It's not up to us to decide that the question has been settled. We wait for the field at large to decide so and to state it. THEN we follow suit. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 14:24, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
Hello everyone. I am Korean and I know many information on tigers in my country. Primitive Japanese wiped out tigers in the Korean Peninsula.
BhagyaMani I saw you delete this sentence "The Siberian tiger was once common in the Korean Peninsula. However, the tigers in Korea were hunted into extinction by the Japanese during the Japanese occupation. The last known Siberian tiger in South Korea was killed in 1922. Heat sensing camera traps set up in the Demilitarized Zone in South Korea did not record any tigers." I don't know why did you deleted that sentence, but that sentence must be there. Japanese is also responsible for current situation of the Amur leopard as well in the last century!!!!! I am so angry and upset in this world that most people don't even know why Amur leopard became critical endangered despite they love Amur leopard and Amur tiger!
Here is the source link. This is interview with professor in Korea. He is trying to work with the team in Russia to reestablish Amur tiger back into Korea. If you can read Korean language, then you would know that tigers in the Korean Peninsula were extinct by Japanese's hunting. https://news.naver.com/main/read.nhn?mode=LSD&mid=sec&sid1=102&oid=028&aid=0002229388 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scienceanimal (talk • contribs) 23:03, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
Scienceanimal The tiger may be extinct in South Korea, but North Korea is nevertheless a potential tiger territory, due to its proximity to Manchuria, so it's nevertheless possible that the northern part of the Korean Peninsula has a few tigers that crossed over from China and Russia. Leo1pard (talk) 05:34, 11 July 2019 (UTC); edited 05:35, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
BhagyaMani I am not trying to be rude. You are not Korean. You can't even understand Korean language. You are not big cat scientist. You don't know anything of tigers of Korea. I am telling you the truth of jap wiped out tigers. There is a book named "Junghoki." It was the japanese business man wrote diary of his hunting party in Korea. He leaded exterminate of large carniores in the Korean Peninsula. Japanese even used dynamite to hunt tigers in Korea, Manchuria, and border of the Russia as well. 그는 또 조선 총독부의 자료를 통해 호랑이와 표범이 한반도에서 사라지게 된 직접적 원인이 일제 강점기의 (해로운 짐승을 제거한다는) ‘해수 구제’ 정책이었음을 처음 밝히기도 했다. 일제가 치명타를 가한 것은 사실이다. If you and Wikipedia are writing fake and wrong information. Then what is the purpose of Wkipedia? There is a book, but I don't think there is any published paper on tigers in Korea. I hope someone to publish that idiotic japanese is responsible of wiping out precious Amur tiger and Amur leopard in my country. japan is also caused critically endangered status of the Amur leopard today, but Amur leopard was not just japanese's fault.
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Siberian tiger's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "Driscoll2009":
((cite journal))
: CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (link)((cite journal))
: CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (link)I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 10:40, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
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Sooyang Park is one man who have dedicated his entire life for studying siberian tiger. I couldn't find reference of his name in this page. Can someone acknowledge his work. Wiki.durairaj (talk) 17:33, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
See Talk:Bengal_tiger#First_sentence_structure. AnomalousAtom (talk) 08:00, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
Certainly NOT. See " What Is a Tiger? Biogeography, Morphology, and Taxonomy" by Kitchener & Yamaguchi (2010) who wrote: The fossils found in these areas were consistent with molecular work using ancient DNA techniques suggesting Beringian ‘tigers’ were in fact lions.
and referenced Barnett et al. (2009) about phylogeography of lions revealing three distinct taxa. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 16:19, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
The Siberian tiger always hunts and defeats the brown bear.source; https://animalscomparison.com/compare-grizzly-bear-vs-siberian-tiger/ https://animalhype.com/mammals/bear-vs-tiger/
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Change "In December 1997, an injured Amur tiger attacked, killed and consumed two people.
To "In December 1997, an injured Amur tiger attacked, killed and partially consumed a poacher by the name of Vladimir Markov. Markov had shot it and stolen the Tiger's kill, resulting in a response described by many as 'premeditated and vengeful[1]. " AreebSiddiqui14 (talk) 15:02, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
I would like to suggest either renaming the article to Amur tiger or changing the wording at the start of the article so that it says "Siberian tiger or Amur tiger". The reason is that various sources on the Internet are using the name Amur tiger now. For example:
https://en.wwfchina.org/en/what_we_do/species/fs/amurtiger/
https://www.blackpoolzoo.org.uk/animals/tiger-amur
https://www.oregonzoo.org/discover/animals/amur-tiger
BrightOrion | talk 15:36, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
![]() | It was proposed in this section that Siberian tiger be renamed and moved to Amur tiger.
result: Links: current log • target log
This is template ((subst:Requested move/end)) |
Siberian tiger → Amur tiger – The name 'Siberian' tiger was because this subspecies was originally found across much of Siberia but now its territory is so reduced that this tiger is almost entirely restricted to a small area in eastern Russia called Amur. Consequently, zoos around the world now call it the Amur tiger. (Please see discussion above called "Increasing the importance of the name Amur tiger".)BrightOrion | talk 23:59, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
@BhagyaMani and Jts1882: Should we add this in the taxobox?
— Some1 talk to me 14:18, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
References
@BhagyaMani: dont you think we should update the img? its been maybe more than 3-4 years with that img. I suggest File:Tiger in the snow at the Detroit Zoo March 2008 pic 2.jpg. Some1 {talk} 18:24, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
The greater sagittal crest height in Siberian tigers in comparison to Indian tigers is likely to be in part a plastic response to the differences in environment and diet between their ranges. The height of the sagittal crest has been shown to be highly plastic between captive and wild individuals: https://doi.org/10.1098/rsos.220697 195.195.244.20 (talk) 11:27, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
The bengal tiger page has labelled the countries in which the tiger is seen, the Siberian tiger map does not. This does not reflect Wikipedia’s goals of neutrality. Thanks. 77.56.87.109 (talk) 14:57, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
Currently, the average body-weight of the Siberian Tiger is listed as being 176.4kg & 117.9kg, for males and females respectively - with a study released in 2005 for reference. However, additional individuals have been sampled since the publishing of the aforementioned study: [2]https://www.scribd.com/document/55288084/Size-and-weight-AmurTiger-2015
A poster by the username of Raul Valvert gathered data of reliably measured Tigers whose measurements were taken from the year of 1992, to 2012, and proceeded to post these in the form of tables. Table 1 concerned male tigers of >3 years of age. The calculated average for these specimens (n=23) was 190.0 kg. Table 2 concerned female tigers. The same trend of the newer average being greater than the last is present here as well, (n=15) 121.0 kg
It should be noted that this data shouldn't necessarily be taken to represent the comtemporary Amur Tiger population. Most individuals sampled here should be long dead; there's an evident need for a more modern and extensive study. Nevertheless, it's what we'll have to work with for now.
Therefore, I suggest we update the present information to account for more recent samples.
Separate note:
A user before me raised the question of whether Tigers who can be considered sub-adults should be included in our mean average values; likening it to including teenagers when discussing the body-weights of adult humans. I decided to take the liberty of calculating the mean value with the updated exclusion of <4 year old specimens: (n=14) 194.07 kg. The reason for their exclusion is that sexual maturity isn't reached before 4 year of age.
References were provided for each Tiger. Von Herre (talk) 20:09, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
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I propose a change to the average body-weight values listed in the body-size section under characteristics, to account for more recent samples. Half a dozen of them (all being males).
The weight average currently listed for wild male Amur Tigers is 176.4kg - with a study from 2005 being referenced (n=18). Taking into account the more contemporary samples shown above, that average would be raised to 183.175kg. This update is my proposed change. Von Herre (talk) 00:13, 14 March 2024 (UTC)