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Do we know for CERTAIN that Socrates existed? My understanding was that that issue was still up in the air. --Dante Alighieri 01:05 Dec 5, 2002 (UTC)
Not at all. Perahps it would be if he was only known from Plato's dialogues, but he's discussed by the historian Xenophon and mocked by the comic Aristophanes, possibly among others.
Now this is ridiculous. One might as well question whether René Descartes existed. And then, how can we be certain you exist? --Eequor 02:45, 22 May 2004 (UTC)
Many people spoke of Jesus the Messiah and claimed influence from him.
Yes, and Jesus also existed. TheTruth12 17:46, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
All this blind faith is touching, but there's not an erg of evidence that Socrates was anything but a rhetorical device. For example, he never "wrote" anything...forcing the faithful to rationalize that he must have been illiterate. There's no purely mundane reference to him, for example a formal record of his execution. He's like Troy, something which is referred to in a way which has nothing to do with historicity, and yet which people have blindly accepted for so long that now they're horrified when someone points out the utter lack of hard evidence. --Kaz 16:53, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Almost all the characters in Plato's dialogues are historical: why would Socrates be an exception? We have a letter of Plato's, believed to be genuine (the Seventh Letter), which mentions the historical figure Socrates. Socrates is explicitly presented as a historical figure by Xenophon and Aristotle. He plays a part in Aristophanes play BEFORE any dialogues appear. We also have fragments from a number of other writers who were contempories of Socrates who mention him. There is copious mention of a great deal of lost texts that mention Socrates, which survived certainly into Roman times. Every single ancient author up to Roman times, who says either way, believes he is a historical figure, and clearly they were in a better position to judge. One would have to be a very bad historian not to believe that this points to Socrates' existence. Dast 18:04, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
By the way, most hisorians also believe Troy was a historical place, like the majority of places in Homer (not including, of course, such places as Hades). Dast 18:08, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
It seems quite clear that the article as it currently stands is wrong, and also expresses an extreme minority position as if it were not one. I shall correct the error (it is not true that only followers mentioned him). And I shall reduce the emphasis upon this minority position. The arguments expressed are ridiculous. Why should a lack of writing be proof of anything? We have no writing from nearly everyone of Socrates' generation. Perhaps Athens did not exist. Furthermore the people who mentioned Socrates first hand and second came from many backgrounds and did not even use him to symbolize the same thing, so he can not be a "rhetorical device". We have more proof that Socrates existed than nearly anyone from that period. ~~
Absolutely. I'm removing the sentence. Wikipedia seems to be being used here as a forum for some sort of academic debate. Primary sources are being evaluated in an effort to establish the veracity of almost universal academic consensus. All of the above arguments are very interesting (if not very credible) but the fact remains that the article as it stands contradicts academic consensus. The purpose of Wikipedia has never been to establish and to report the truth, only to report what is written down by authoritative sources. If anyone knows of any source please reinsert but not so prominently - there isn't much controversy about whether S existed.--Lo2u 13:00, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Not a critical point, but regarding Socrates' marriage, I guess there are some conflicting views. Namely, Xanthippe may or may not be the only wife.
The following page discusses the issue rather in detail. http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/socrates/wpages39toendpt1.html
See also: http://www.cnu.edu/academics/phil/carr/SocraBio.htm http://www.san.beck.org/Plato-Intro.html
Tomos 17:37 Jan 31, 2003 (UTC)
In the commentaries to Phaedo, I've found this : About Xanthipe, Diogenes Laert says the following: Aristotle says that Socrates had two wifes; by the first one, Xanthipe, he had a son Lamprocles, by the second one, Xanthipe, he had sons Sophronisk and Menescen. It is said by others that Mirtha was his first wife. And again, others say that he was married to both of them at once, this is said by Satyr and Hyeronim of Rhodes. Could somebody check this up, and possibly do a rewrite of the biographical section? Thanks. May-hem 08:54, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
Diogenes Laertius (Lives 2.26) is our only source for this story. He is often unreliable, particularly when he doesn't name his source. Here his source appears to be Aristotle, but the remark about Myrto appears nowhere in the extant works of Aristotle. Since Plutarch mentions Aristotle in connection with a story of Myrto and Socrates' involvement, it's pretty safe to conjecture that Plutarch was using the same source as Diogenes was. But Plutarch says that the Myrto-Socrates story is found in a work titled On Good Birth, which was attributed to Aristotle, but which (as Plutarch himself points out) may not have actually been written by Aristotle. In any case, the Myrto-Socrates story that Plutarch relates does not involve a marriage between Myrto and Socrates; Plutarch's source says only that Socrates, who was already married, attended to Myrto's financial concerns when she became a widow. This was not unusual and obviously doesn't entail a marriage to Myrto. I suspect that this was the source of Diogenes' story, and that Diogenes simply misinterpreted the passage; if Aristotle had really implied anything like what Diogenes reports, surely Plutarch would have mentioned it in his discussion of the topic. There is simply no other evidence of a marriage between Socrates and Myrto, or any other woman besides Xanthippe. (For the quotations of the relevant passages from Diogenes and Plutarch, see The Complete Works of Aristotle, edited by Jonathan Barnes, vol. 2, p. 2423.)
What is the basis for the claim that Socrates supported the democracy?
He fought for his country (rather, his polis) when it was under military attack, but his scorn for democracy would seem to have come out again and again. Is his admiration for the life of Sparta and Crete universally consdiered to be a fabrication? Again, "enemy" would seem rather a strong term for Critias' attitude toward him: that fellow's enemies tended to suffer something rather worse than being allowed to go home and keep their mouths shut.
While we're up, is "satirical distortions" (of Aristophanes) a reasonable term? All satire tends to distort, after all; the reader, knowing this, is invited to think that these were more distorted than those of, say, Voltaire or Swift—a highly debatable view. Dandrake 01:45, Oct 28, 2003 (UTC)
Looks as if we're in for an apostrophe dispute. I reverted a change that added back an s to Socrates' after another person had removed them all. It is traditional in many places to use the form Socrates' , so much so that the Chicago Manual of Style used to list Jesus, Moses, and Socrates as exceptions to the usual rule of adding 's to words and names ending in s. The latest edition goes further: generally, Greek names in s get only the apostrophe.
Perhaps this is a trans-Atlantic difference in usage. But before the international incidents get under way, will supporters of Socrates's please give some citations? Dandrake 17:39, Mar 4, 2004 (UTC)
However, the person whose unacceptable user name has been canceled (thanks, Ed) was right in the substance of the personal-attack comment that has been deleted per policy (thanks again): there are four Cardinal Virtues in Christian tradition, and I've never heard of the existence of a comparable earlier list with any number of entries. So I'm changing the text, subject to correction by anyone who have find a calssic Greek list of five. Dandrake 19:55, Mar 5, 2004 (UTC)
The article on Hemlock contains the following statement:
Does anyone have any modern references which can verify or disprove this statement that the story is a myth? WormRunner | Talk 03:48, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
At least one ancient source that is good evidence that he did is Plato's Phaedo. Also, this was common practise for someone sentenced to death in 5th cen. Athens.
It does Socrates an injustice to say that he claimed that it is better to suffer an injustice than to commit one; he argued it clearly and (some would say) convincingly. But may we have a statement of why it merely seems at first glance to be paradoxical when he claims to be wiser than others on the basis of his understanding that he knows nothing? It's a clever paradox, in fact. Dandrake 08:25, May 22, 2004 (UTC)
Whereas one says, "I know that I know nothing" another can ask, "how do you know that"? In which confusion sets in. Why not understand it as, "I don't know that I know anything"?
Plato never actually has Socrates claim, "I know that I know nothing." The closest text we have to that is probably Apology 22c-d, where Socrates says, "I was conscious/aware of knowing so to speak nothing." The Greek text actually has the qualification "so to speak"; Socrates is careful not to say, "I know that I know nothing." I agree with Eequor: All Socrates is really saying is that he knows that he lacks a certain kind of knowledge; for example, in one passage (Apology 22d), he appears to be saying only that he knows that he's ignorant about the greatest matters. If this is what he is ignorant about, then there is no paradox in claiming that he does have knowledge about other matters. (Apology 21d may appear to be another place where he claims not to know anything, but if you read carefully, you'll find that all he's saying in that passage is that he doesn't know anything admirable and good - i.e., anything worthwhile.)
I've put in the Greek form of his name with a romanisation. Does anyone have any opinions on whether this is a Good Thing? If it is, I might do the same to other entries. Greek form checked in LSJ. m.e. 12:40, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)
There are a couple of places where socrates mentions the problem of the joints. It seems linked to the problem of definition and categories. I've let this act as a core for which to form associations. Have you thought about it? I have some answers but would like to hear ideas unaffected by mine. Thanks. WblakesxWblakesx 05:36, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The whole section on Philosophical Beliefs came straight from my senior research paper. Here is the works cited page from that report:
Chin, Beverly, et. al., eds. Glencoe World Literature. New York: Glencoe McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc., 2000.
Gross, Ronald. “Socrates: Mentor for humanists.” Free Inquiry Spring 2003: p. 57. Expanded Academic ASAP. The Gale Group. Newark High School Library, Newark, DE. 1 Dec 2004. <http://web5.infotrac.galegroup.com/itw/ses>.
“Socrates.” Discovering Biography. Online Edition 2003. Student Resource Center. The Gale Group. Newark High Library, Newark, DE. December 1, 2004. <http://galenet.galegroup.com/servlet/SRC>.
Solomon, Robert C., and Kathleen M. Higgins. A Short History of Philosophy. New York: Oxford University Press, 1996.
“The Religion of Socrates.” Ancient Philosophy Spring 1998: p. 174-177. SIRS Renaissance. SIRS Mandarin, Inc. Newark High School Library, Newark, DE. 1 Dec 2004. <http://sks.sirs.com>.
Thomas, Henry. Understanding the Great Philosophers. Gorden City, New York: Doubleday & Company, Inc., 1962.
Should it really be states that Socrates is ugly ? Isn't that more for tabloids and magazines and not encyclopedias.
- I think its relevant, considering its what one of the few pieces of information we have about it. Furthermore, I know at least one philosopher (Nietzsche) has used Socrates's ugliness as a basis for attacking his beliefs. I think he somehow meant that since Socrates was ugly he was an enemy of art and tragedy. This of course has to do with the whole Apollonian/Dionysian duality that Nietzsche loved to rant about it and how Socrates destroyed the Dionysian side and ruined Greek culture, yatta yatta yatta, I don't really know, but I think its relevant.
"It is not known whether or not Socrates had a fully-functional phallos, but it's been proven by historians that he used one carved out of garlic, instead." Um, WTF?
This is a) enough of a shocking claim to warrant at least a citation, and preferably more explanation, and b) a bit of a non-sequitur.
I have some MAJOR issues with the "philosophical beleifs" section of this article. to being with, it in no way mentions that it is difficult to ascertain what Socrates beleived as opposed to Plato, where we get most of our accounts of Socrates. More importantly, it states as fact what are actually non-neutral stands on hotly debated issues of platonic/socratic philosophy. imo they miss the depth of the Platonic drama. It is very debatable as to whether or not Socrates thought philosophers shold actually rule as kings- notice his constant mention of how he CANNOT go to politics, as his deamon always tells him it is wrong; notice the irony of a rhetorical/dramatic masterpeice going on and on about how art is bad because the author doesn't using his own voice when Plato is having Socrates narate the entire Republic. and etc.
It seems to me, if there is going to be a philosophical beleifs of Socrates section, it should make clear the difficulty of ascertaining his thoughts and should use PRIMARY sources to provide some of socrates' beleifs. There is much that i personally beleive is of greater significance and should go in this section, eg the philosophic path as laid out in the symposium and the phaedrus, the search for the GOOD (not necessarily as a "Form"), etc.
so lets all talk about before i single handedly enforce my opinions on the article. we should be able to come to some concensus about what should be there and what should not. but what is there now is only one possible interpretation of his thought, cited only through secondary sources with their own interpretations. we should make clear the variety of possible interpretation and try to use primary source material as much as possible, as this is an encyclopedia.Heah 18:11, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
does anyone know why "socratic method" was merged with this page? it really should have its own entry, as it isn't about socrates, but a teaching style we have named after him.Heah 20:00, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
How come Socrates is showing up as dying in 399 AD!!. Was I shocked, since I am studying a period 800 years later than him. The article has been edited to include his birthday as June 7th, 470 BC, but has not yet been edited in regards to his death: May 7th, 399 BC.
http://www.born-today.com/Today/06-04.htm
http://quotes.tubegator.com/socrates.php
http://members.aol.com/kitecd/c_hmay.htm
I'll add the month and day, and if someone else feels it necessary to update more than that, I would appreciate it.
Why does Daimonion redirect here?
i've restored the philosophy section, having been deleted a month ago by an anon ip. if people have problems with it please discuss and fix it as you see fit, but there is no reason that i can see to eliminate it entirely . . . --Heah (talk) 17:51, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
I would like to, slowly, make the following general changes and would welcome some feed back:
I would also like to make some larger changes. To begin with, a more extensive section on the Socratic sources. Currently it is broken into 'Satirical Playwrights' (for Aristophanes) and 'Prose Sources' (for Plato and Xenophon), which is peculiar since Aristophanes is also a prose writer, not a poet.
I think it would be a good idea to join these sections and devote a paragraph to each source (and mention the fragmentory (e.g. Aeschines) and later (e.g. Aristotle) sources). This, while interesting in itself, would also clear up confusion about the relation between the historical Socrates and, e.g., the Platonic 'Socrates'.
I'm new to Wikipedia and don't want to step on anybody's toes, so any feedback or advice would be very welcome. --Dast 14:06, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
"According to Dr. Will Beldam, he was the first person to question everything and everyone, and apparently it offended the leaders of his time."
What is this attribution trying to accomplish? Who is Will Beldam, why is he an authority on Socrates, and if this is a reference, to what work of his is it referring to? I am still learning wiki so sorry about the poor formatting
I removed this sentence from the section on Knowledge. I'm not sure what it is trying to say It did not communicate to me, and I doubt it will to other readers. Septentrionalis 14:38, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
The article Suicide displays a picture of the death of Socrates. Is it accurate to call Socrates' death a suicide? (Anyone wishing to move this debate to that page is welcome to do so.) Thanks! --Dpr 00:13, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Because he could have escaped does not make it a suicide. According to the sources we have, Socrates drank the poison because that was his sentence and he thought it was just to abide by the law of his city. TheTruth12 17:58, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Suppose a teacher sends a student to the office. His friend tells him he could easily escape going to the office by dropping out and attending another school. The student says that even though he was unjustly sent to the office, he chose this school and therefore following the teacher's command to go to the office is the right thing to do. Would you say this student sent himself to the office or went there fully on his own accord? Of course not. TheTruth12 18:08, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Someone has subversively slipped the word Fountainhead into the article :D
i love fountainhead... good for "somebody" XD 71.98.100.93 01:48, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
The defeat of Athens in the Peloponnesian War was interpreted as Athena judging the city of for not being pious.
Evidence for this? Septentrionalis 23:37, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Socrates was black Socrates black ancestry should be mentioned
http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/greeks/religion/myths/pictures/theseus.jpg 4 black athenians surrouded by two whites http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9015475?tocId=9015475&query=red-figure
This must be rewritten. We could probably quote Plato that Socrates didn't write anything, and the stuff by Meno would not be part of Socrates' works. +MATIA ☎ 11:02, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Meno (Μένων) is a platonic dialogue. The text in question at gutenberg project is "(Socrates was known for his simple attire, and for wearing his garments over and over till they wore out. However, the only surviving example of his writing is a laundry list, so we know he kept his clothes clean and somewhat presentable, though simple)", and that's probably a comment of the english translator. An analysis of laundry lists and their position in a biography. +MATIA ☎ 11:17, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
I've removed that phrase for now. +MATIA ☎ 00:03, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
how did socrates take a stand? Yahussain 02:18, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
well i suppose one way could be that he stood up for his own beliefs/values and chose death by poison rather than fleeing athens. 424242 01:49, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Not quotes, which are punctuation marks.
The man who knows he knows nothing is smarter than the man who thinks he knows something but actually knows nothing. This appears to be a paraphrase of a lengthy argument in Plato's Apology of Socrates 22c-23c. Anyone wishing to restore it should provide the exact words and a verifiable reference. Larvatus 17:55, 17 December 2005 (UTC)larvatus
I think there are several places where quotations would improve the article. I have Plato's pieces on Socrates so I will see what I can do. TheTruth12 18:03, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Why was the Arabic manuscript of Socrates erased from the article? If it were not for the Arabs, we would hardly know anything about the Greeks today now would we?--Zereshk 01:17, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Google search for "BC Christian" turns up 17,400 results; search for "BC Christian" Socrates turns up only 108, the vast majority of which are incidental. The ones that aren't incidental are either this article or text copied directly from the article. I move that this be deleted. Argyrios 18:44, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
PMAnderson: I believe you have failed to understand the context of my recent revert. I was not changing it for the hell of it; I was changing BACK a very recent previous edit by an unsigned user. I understand you are sensitive to this issue from your user page and that my justification for my revert wasn't correct in your opinion, but surely to apply your rule fairly, the original edit was the one that was in error, not my revert. Argyrios 03:38, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
The source for "Finding that they knew nothing and yet believing themselves to know much, Socrates came to the conclusion that he was wise only in so far as he knew that he knew nothing'"' is here: [1] but where is the source for "virtue was the most valuable of all possessions; the ideal life was spent in search of the Good. Truth lies beneath the shadows of existence, and that it is the job of the philosopher to show the rest how little they really know."?
Meant to link to WP:NSR in edit summary Argyrios 04:26, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
This article was formerly listed as a good article, but was removed from the listing because the article lacks references. The discussions above further demonstrate that the lack of sources has been an ongoing problem for this article. --Allen3 talk 15:49, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
The platonism sidebar presents Plato's image (as depicted in the School of Athens), yet Socrates' image in that painting is nowhere to be found.
I only bring this up because I was momentarily confused, seeing Plato's image and thinking it was supposed to be Socrates. --Eienmaru 22:51, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
For an interesting article on where (and even whether) Socrates appears in Raphael's School of Athens see http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0422/is_n4_v77/ai_17846051
Before continuing this reverting back and forth I think I should say which is the reason I removed certain parts. Theese parts are simply wrong and misguiding.They regenerate the popular opinions about philosophers and exhibit great disrespect and lack of understanding for the personality and the great genius of Socrates. Only 1 out of 1 billion people in earth can really understand what Hellenes philosophers meant. So it is natural for lesser minds like yours not to undestand his books. Even if you are above the average intelligence you are still barbarians and thus you are incapable of understanding what the words that philosophers used mean. English language lacks the depth and the necessary plurality of relations that will allow for a correct translation from the hellenic language.English language is primitive ,simplistic and leads to wrong results. To make things worse many of the mistakes that philosophers analyze are inherent inside the structure of the english language.
Before launching a flame war against me you should know that this is not my opinion.If Plato lived he would believe the same about all of you.Which means that you are uncivilized , barbarians and not-free people...that you are slaves. Thus you are incapable of understanding philosophy.
I am not willing to argue shout or swear against anyone .I am just saying the truth.The person that you describe as Socrates is not the one that lived 2400 years ago.He is someone else.A creature of your fantasy but certainly not anywhere near the personality of the true person that you are attempting to describe.If you want to do something good just provide historical information and leave the attempts to analyze philosophy to those capable of it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ParmenidesII (talk • contribs) .
Theres not much on his early life
Socrates was the father of Western philosophy, but clearly it merits space that some guy made a non-outstanding film 2,500 years later and had one of the rats named after him, or, my favorite, that when someone does something dumb, it's humorously ironic to call him by the name of a great thinker.
Seriously, that section really detracts. Serious articles about extremely important historical characters don't have that sort of section. Compare to Plato, Aristotle, Jesus, Buddha, George Washington, Napoleon, etc. Argyrios 02:06, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I corrected some errors in the info under Mysticism about Socrates' divine sign. The earlier version called it a "daemon", which Socrates never does (neither in Plato nor in Xenophon); in the literature it is always referred to as a "daemonic thing", divine in origin, but not itself a divinity or even a being. Also, the earlier version of the article said that the sign appeared to him "always" when he was about to make a mistake; but although both Plato and Xenophon report that its appearance was frequent, neither suggest that it came to Socrates whenever he was about to make a mistake. By the way, in the time of Plato, the ancient Greek term "daemonic" (or daimonion) simply means "divine" or "supernatural". Isokrates 17:54, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Socratic is a band and i typed it in but it referred me to "Socraties".
Is there a problem here? (I believe so)
Should Diogenes Laertius be mentioned as an ancient source on Socrates, or does he provide nothing of independent value? john k 20:32, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
He's certainly a source worth mentioning; he may have had access to many earlier sources that are now lost. On the other hand, very little of what he says can be taken as fact - he prefered a good story to accurate biography. Dast 16:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be a contradiction between Socrates opposing sophistry and him actually being one. See "sophistry."
--L 0 0 P 23:56, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I've just read the controversial lecture by the pope [2]. He briefly draws a comparison between Socrates' rejection of myth and the hellenisation of the early church. Very interesting, but is this a commonplace notion, or is his Holiness guilty of original research?--Shtove 19:25, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Might including a brief reference about the liberation of Phaedo by Socrates (if accurate) and the significance of his presence at Socrates' death give insight into the character of Socrates? This is beyond my area of expertise to write. This aspect came to my attention after reading the following from the article "Socrates or Muhammad?" by Lee Harris:
I always thought this guy's name was pronounced 'soc ruh teez" until high school when my sophomore humanities teacher and his whole class corrected me and said that it was actually "sock rats." I remember people standing up in front of the whole class giving speeches about "sock rats," and I had to say it too! Argh! Not sure what this has to do with Wikipedia, hehe. - Connelly 03:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
The first pronounciation you used is the correct one. Other than that, please stop filling wikipedia with questions/comments of no value. Thank you, Matthew 02:50, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 17:32, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest that the section concerning his trial and death mention the fact that a decent number of his close associates (alcibiades, Charmides, etc.) betrayed athens in the war - and, if Plato's work is any indication, he may have held undemocratic views. Karl Popper, for one, believed that this was the true reason why he was put to death. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.70.51.40 (talk • contribs) .
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Socrates/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
needs references plange 03:36, 30 July 2006 (UTC) |
Last edited at 03:36, 30 July 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 22:04, 3 May 2016 (UTC)