The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. It should also be noted that non-English sources, while not necessarily preferable, are explicitly allowed on English Wikipedia, and that a lack of English sources is thus not a valid argument for deletion. See WP:V#Non-English sources for more information. --jonny-m t 14:13, 30 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Festival of New Songs[edit]

Non-notable music festival for new and unknown musicians. J3az6u (talk) 20:28, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete no English reference is found and moreover not available in any search engine hence it fails its notability . --Pearll's sun (talk) 20:39, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep As it appears to be broadcast on several of the major Slovenia channels (TV and Radio), it sounds like it is notable.StephenBuxton (talk) 22:52, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Could the result of this AFD be passed on over to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Zeus (band)? That band's inclusion on Wikipedia depends on whether or not the music competition of this festival is notable. StephenBuxton (talk) 22:52, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. The FENS is a major Slovene festival. The main evening of the festival is broadcasted by TV Koper and Radio Koper, TV Slovenia, Radio Slovenia. The competition of children and teenagers is broadcasted twice independently on Radio Slovenia, Radio Koper, Radio Maribor etc. These are notable Slovene national and local TV and radio stations. Even though the sources are still missing (the festival has been presented by television and radio, search here) I am astonished the article has been nominated for deletion. Perhaps this has something to do with my recent nomination of PureH and some other articles created by User:J3az6u for deletion? --Eleassar ^{my talk} 23:06, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Major Slovene festivals are (or were): EMA, MMS, Metalcamp, Rock Otočec and Novi Rock. I am from Slovenia and never heard of this Festival of New Songs. Where can your statement about national TV be verified? Maybe your deletion of many Slovenian groups like Racija, Pudding Fields, PureH, Coptic Rain, Devil Doll and others has something to do cos you're blocked from Slovenian wikipedia (you called other Wikipedia editors hyaenas and fools, remember?) - J3az6u (talk) 23:32, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Yes, I remember and do regret. This is not the topic of this discussion. You may verify my comment about the festival e.g. here or just search for FeNS from the RTV's main page. As for the articles that I proposed for deletion you could have prevented it if they are really soooo important. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 23:45, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Many groups that you deleted appeared on legendary festival Novi Rock, which was broadcasted on national TV and national radio (complete festival, not just news item), but this obscure "Festival of New Songs" pop festival is more important to you. - J3az6u (talk) 00:11, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Needless to say, but anyway: I don't agree with your personal notions of what is legendary and what is obscure. You seem not to have read the link I provided: the festival itself was broadcasted, not just a news item published. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 09:07, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. That's not my personal notion - you can read that Novi Rock is a legendary festival (three times) at the International Association of Music Information Centres which is a member of the European Forum for the Arts and Heritage. Or here in Mladina (most influential political magazine in Slovenia - the prime minister Janez Janša begun his career in Mladina). Or here in Delo, one of the major daily newspapers in Slovenia. Where can you read something in english about the Festival of New Songs? Or in italian or german, if it is really sooooo important international newcomer festival? I can't find even a news item in Delo, Dnevnik or Mladina about that festival. - J3az6u (talk) 16:48, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. All the mentions in media for the year 2007 are available here. Many of these are very influential Slovene media. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 18:11, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. The link you provided is an official page of the festival. You can't find the actual mentions of the festival in this mostly local radio and TV stations and local newspapers, the links on the page are: listen to the radio, or TV listings etc. You said that the festival is international - so, where can we find something in other languages? J3az6u (talk) 18:24, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. So you're implying the list is faked? That Slovenija 1, Val 202, Žurnal, TV Pika, Radio 1 etc. etc. are mostly local? Yes, many of the stations are local, but they operate all over Slovenia. Ok, feel free to say whatever you like. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 18:28, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. The national radio and TV is only TV/Radio Slovenija. All other stations are local or regional stations and they not cover the whole country. And there's no evidence that the show is broadcasted or just a news item, and as i said, the links are only to "listen the radio" and "see the tv listings" - of today. - J3az6u (talk) 18:40, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment You should check your information about what is local and what national. By the way: "posnetek festivala" means "the show is broadcasted" in Slovene. And the printed articles are available as clips. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 18:45, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Ok. Radio 1 - cover about the half of Slovenia - check the map on their site: http://www.radio1.si/radio1.php Žurnal - only 20 cities in Slovenia - check their site: http://www.zurnal24.si/cms/home/informacije/mojizvod.html etc. About "posnetek" - you don't know if it is a 15 minutes "posnetek" or 1 hour. BTW, any english references?- J3az6u (talk) 18:54, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Non-notable event which lacks verifiable sources. TV schedules are not "more than trivial mentions" and a single foreign language websites is not meaningful. IF this article existed on the Slovene Wikipedia space, then I might be willing to accept it here. But as the user admits above to being blocked. If the Slovene Wikipedia doesn't see this subject as notable enough for an article, when they can read the resources, then I can't see how it can be. Deferring to Tones' judgment below.Balloonman (talk) 06:44, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. This is a flawed criterion. The Slovene Wikipedia is small and lacks articles on many important topics: see, for example, its Vital articles and Vital articles for the Slovene Wikipedia. What about press coverages like [1], [2], [3], [4], [5] (more can be found here)? Do they not qualify as verifiable sources? --Eleassar ^{my talk} 11:19, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not necessarily. First, it is in a foreign language, thus for all I know the articles could be talking about the man in the moon. Second, news coverage does not guarantee notability. My parents live in a small town, less than 1000 people, every year they have "OctoberFest." OctoberFest is a huge event for the community that attracts people from around the region... every year it is written up and published in local newspapers---even the "big city" paper (a city of about 50,000) covers the event. That doesn't make "OctoberFest" anything more than it really is, a small non-notable carnival.Balloonman (talk) 17:18, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

First, you should assume good faith and not imply that I'm lying without presenting hard evidence. Second, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to recognize the words FeNS, festival, Nova scena etc. in the clipings even if they are in a foreign language. Third, if you still have doubts there are plenty of Wikipedians who speak Slovene - you can ask them to translate it for you.

As for the "big city" paper, the FeNS is broadcasted by national TV and radio stations, and the newspapers I have provided cover the major part of Slovenia (e.g. Primorske novice covers all the Littoral region, Žurnal covers the twenty largest cities, TV Okno and Pilot are among the most widely read printed media in Slovenia[6] [7]). --Eleassar ^{my talk} 07:38, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Don't worry, I did just that. I asked a person who is an administrator on both the Slovene and the Eng wikipedia to come by and give his two cents worth. We simply have no way of knowing what kind of evidence you are providing.Balloonman (talk) 16:34, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm speaking Slovene - the first link [8] is from a local newspaper Primorske novice. In the article you can read that "the festival was discussed in scornful tones in domestic media" - in proof of the festival is obscure. The second link [9] is also from a local newspaper Primorske novice. The third link [10] is from one free local newspaper, it is full of non-notable articles. The fourth link [11] is from TV Okno - the paper which comes with some local newspapers (again Primorske Novice and others) and you can read about some unknown singers in this short article. The fifth link [12] is again from local newspaper Žurnal, again one short article.

As for the national tv broadcast - you don't have any evidence except the notice on the festival page (Agencija Plahutnik). How long was the festival broadcasted? 1 minute in or 30 minutes?

My opinion is - if the Festival of New songs meets Wikipedia criterion, then every single newcomer festival in Uzbekistan, Kazahstan, Etiopia or Waikiki meets Wikipedia notability. If you find any single reference in English about that festival, or any single reference in Slovene that the festival is somewhat important, i will withdraw this deletion nomination immediately. All the best, J3az6u (talk) 16:53, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm really glad that Balloonman contacted Tone. Tone is a fine and honest person.

As for the commentary above: The first link is from the regional, not local newspaper. It says the following: "The similarities between Melodije morja in sonca and Fens are pretty scarce. If the first was won by money and scandals, the second was won first of all by music." You should reread it if you think this means the festival is obscure and was discussed in scornful tones. The second link is from Primorske novice too. The third is from a free newspaper Žurnal that is more informative than Delo IMO and is distributed in all large cities of Slovenia. The fourth is read by 635.000 raders.[13] The fifth is from Žurnal again.

As for the tv broadcast - "Posnetek finalnega dela festivala, ki sta ga popestrila lanskoletna zmagovalka Vika Zore in skupina Kalamari, si lahko ogledate na TV Koper 29. julija ob 22.30 in na 2. programu TV Slovenija 30. julija ob 22.00. Radijski poslušalci pa bodo novim glasbenikom lahko prisluhnili 7. avgusta ob 20.00 na Radiu Slovenija in Radiu Koper."[14] This means the whole finals were broadcasted. I'm sure it didn't last for only 1 minute. I won't comment your opinion. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 17:46, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Žurnal is more informative than national major newspaper Delo? That's a nonsense and it is only your personal notion. Žurnal is a free garbage. That's my personal notion. All the press is from a local or regional newspapers, and NOT NATIONAL.

"S posmehljivimi toni obravnavan v medijih" means what i said in previous post.

As you don't have any single reference in English or any other non-Slovene language, the article don't belong to English Wikipedia. Start an article about that festival in Slovene Wikipedia. (oooops, i forgot you're banned there) - J3az6u (talk) 18:09, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And the next sentence: "A časi se spreminjajo in po skromni beri z MMS lahko mirno zapišemo, da je bilo sobotno večerno dogajanje na odru koprske Taverne neke vrste popravni izpit za domačo pop glasbo." As for Delo, it is most often a garbage you must pay for a lot (Sobotna priloga is interesting sometimes). But most importantly, please, be aware that WP:CIVIL is a policy here no matter whether I'm blocked. That goes for the comment you have deleted too.[15] --Eleassar ^{my talk} 18:19, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You're so funny. One non-intentionally deleted char (space) is not a deleted comment. - J3az6u (talk) 18:50, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, this is a deleted comment.[16] --Eleassar ^{my talk} 18:52, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But on my user page. - J3az6u (talk) 18:55, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's about name calling (silly, funny etc.) and your caustic remarks even after you have been warned repeatedly. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 19:06, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, you blocked me, hope you're satisfied now :) Have a nice evening!

Adding my two cents. I don't follow music festivals too often so I'll try to comment the arguments presented already (I appologize for not verifying every case separately, I trust you guys did this correctly).

Media coverage. Delo is one of the biggest daily newspapers in Slovenia and as such pretty much relevant. Žurnal is available country-wide while Primorske novice is available in the Littoral region that has a significant percentage of country's population. National TV and radio broadcasting the finals (although not live) seems pretty significant as well. Judging from 2007 press clipping, at least parts of the festival appeared on most of Slovenian TV and radio stations. Not bad. Press clipping isn't so impressive but the magazines in question usually don't make profound analytical articles (at least I wouldn't want them as sources). What I find amusing is that we can't find a well written reference in a relevant newspaper (like Delo, Dnevnik, Večer, Mladina) while the festival obviously appears in the media on national level. Surely articles exist, I get 35 000+ ghits on "fens". I would not prefer agencija plahutnik's website as a source since it is a clipping, not an article by itself. (after some more checking, this article is quite ok as a reference).
The artists starting their professional way at the festival (those presently listed in the article) are notable, most of them in fact deserve an article at the English WP (maybe all? can't say now...). So, if a criteria of notability is participation of established performers, this is a good point here. However, I would like to have some references for Siddharta or Nude participating (makes the point stronger).
I see there was an argument between two users here. Eleassar, my advice, never block a user if you are involved in a quarrel. There are many admins that can do this and stay uninvolved at the same time. (this does not have much to do with this discussion but anyway.)

To summarize all this, on the basis of the evidence given, my opinion is Keep. However, in order to avoid possible renomination in future, I would prefer having some stronger references than those already in the article. I hope it helps. --Tone 21:30, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I should probably mention that it would be probably very hard to obtain any references in foreign languages for this festival so the only sources we have are in Slovene. And regarding sl: wiki, there are articles about more important topic than this missing so the nonexistent article there can't serve as an argument here. --Tone 22:20, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merge Maybe merge it in a list Nothing 444 20:28, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete No english references. May also fail WP:NOTE.--RyRy5 talk 20:31, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.