The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus to delete. W.marsh 00:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hallo Berlin[edit]

Hallo Berlin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Nomination for deletion Unencyclopedic. Wikipedia is not a tourist or dining guide. This is an article about a street vendor food cart. It won an award for best street food vendor from the Urban Justice Center[1]. This contest gets some local news coverage e.g. in the local news and dining pages of the NYTimes[2][3]. But minor awards and news coverage do not automatically translate into encyclopedic notability. Bwithh 21:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Also see related afd for Chicken and RiceBwithh 21:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Also see related cfd for Category:Tourist dining Bwithh 21:43, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per nomination and the above comment. Unverfiable claim of fame. 2-man non-notable food cart open 4 hours a day monday to friday. MartinDK 21:35, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Deleteper nom --Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:41, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. Fame is demonstrated by its newspaper clippings. If the New York Times, one of the world's leading newspapers, thinks that Hallo Berlin is notable, then that is a judgment which has considerable weight. Besides, other food service establishments, such as Tour d'Argent, have their own articles. --TruthbringerToronto (Talk | contribs) 21:43, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rebuttal As I emphasized in the nomination, the Vendy awards received local news/dining coverage in the New York Times. The NYT is not just an international or national newspaper, it is also a local newspaper covering issues of local interest specific to New York City and surrounding area. (The Times has reviewed the majority of the thousands of restaurants in NYC too. Wikipedia is not a restaurant guide so we don't need articles on every single one of them.) As for Tour d'Argent - it's a 400 year old landmark (i.e. older than the United States.... and the NYTimes calls it "a famous landmark", "a legendary restaurant", and "a monument historique") - not comparable to Hallo Berlin Bwithh 21:52, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Also, Tour d'Argent results in over 1.8 million Google hits. I fail to see the comparison with a part time food-cart operated by two people. MartinDK 21:56, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Keep, Just because something is "more" notable does not mean this is not notable. Winning the Vendy Awards by itself is establishment of notability, even without the NY times articles. Valoem ^talk 22:26, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Doesn't make it encyclopedically notable. Bwithh 22:28, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE clearly states that Wikipedia is not a travel guide or restaurant guide. MartinDK 22:45, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment this is not a tourist guide, it is a cited place of interest that has been cited by multiple indepedent sources and has won awards. Secondly Wikipedia does include restuarants nowhere on that page does it say otherwise. That page also made it clear that small cafes and such as not notable per Wikipedia, however a cited awarded dining location is. Valoem ^talk 22:52, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Not only does this award not make the cart notable, but I can't seem to find many references to the award itself other than people saying they won it or were nominated(other than it's own page[4]). HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 00:05, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Firstly, how does the Vendy Awards, not merit itself? How is the award not notable. Also Hallo Berlin has been cited as a notable dining location by multiple indepedent sources: [5], [6], [7], [8], there are also 3 newspaper clipping including one from the New York Times posted on the cart itself stating the notability of the cart. Valoem ^talk 00:16, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • To be frank, I don't see a push cart being notable unless it did something pretty amazing. A couple reviews, and some directory listins don't cut it for me. I don't see any mention in the times abstracts. If that counts, then there are 15 or so little food shops around here with a few local reviews. I am not going to make articles on them though. HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 00:25, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete If this were ny.wikipedia.org, I may have a different opinion. But for a general interest encyclopedia, I just don't see it. While the New York times is certainly a substantial publication, not everything in it is non-trivial (All The News That's Fit To Print). The publications seem to be in very local in nature, and no different from the type of article that appears in the primary newspaper of localities around the world. Not to say that no weiner stand could ever be the subject of an article, but this one doesn't seem to be it. ScottW 02:12, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment several things to note. New York is considered to be the financial headquarters of the world. Therefore, anything notable in NY is more notable than anything in small towns. Of course magazines and other magazines that publish locally in small towns are hardly notable. But when an article is published in NY Mag and New York Times it is notable. The real question is does this dining location merit enough notability that people not from the location would be interested, because it has been mentioned as a notable dining location in NY mag, it most certainly would (not to mention Vendy Awards). Valoem ^talk 04:36, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

oh, trivial local media coverage is trivial local media coverage. (and debatable whether NYC is world's financial capital) Bwithh 07:34, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would need to see multiple indepedent sources sir :) (Hallo Berlin has that) Valoem ^talk 09:55, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - not for a reputable encyclopedia. Moreschi 15:07, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per nom. --Folantin 15:22, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Multiple articles in New York Times= verifiable notability. Edison 16:52, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong keep. This is a notable food institution in New York City. (BTW: They also have a restaurant location in addition to the cart.) There is a paper-trail that can attest to notability: Featured in Gothamist, listed in World's Best Meal Deals | New York City; Sydney; Moscow; Tokyo; London in Food & Wine, rated "best power lunch" in 2003 in New York magazine, there's a YouTube video attesting to the popularity of the cart, reviewed in New York Press and, of course, a lot of coverage about the Vendy award like this article in The Village Voice. Come on, this is "New York's Wurst Restaurant!" --Howrealisreal 18:37, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Restaurant reviews (especially such pieces on the level of a brief blog entry by one guy (gothamist link), one-line opinions by one person as in the "best power lunch" link, a few lines in a quote from one guy(Food & Wine link), a youtube video (!!!)) are not a good basis for encyclopedic notability. Awards and press coverage do not automatically translate to encyclopedic notability. Wikipedia's primary overriding function is as an encyclopedic not a general information dump Bwithh 18:48, 15 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You're thinking way too quantitatively. The guidelines on notability for companies say nothing about how much needs to be written to qualify for inclusion. All the sources I cited (obviously with the exception of the YouTube video I threw in there for fun, in ext links not references) are "non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the company or corporation itself". (That's taken directly from the guideline, so yes, press coverage and awards do designate notability. By definition, when you give something an award it's to show it's more notable than the rest.) You're going to toss out the fact that this food institution was given awards (Vendy and Best Power Lunch), because they didn't see the need to write a novel about it? That's unnecessary, the notability lies in the fact that major magazines and newspapers wrote about Hallo Berlin with distinction regardless of the fact of how long those articles are. --Howrealisreal 19:08, 15 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep; marginally notable. Everyking 04:45, 15 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per Howreal, who shows that the cart/restaurant chain has sufficient notability. Add some of the above citations to the article. -- Kicking222 14:27, 15 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I overhauled the article with references. I'll most likely get back to this later and add some more (the Restaurant heading is obviously lacking). Thanks for helping out here. --Howrealisreal 16:00, 15 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. --Easyas12c 17:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Wikipedia does not need articles on every restaurant that ever won a local award of some kind. See WP:COMPANY. -- Ssilvers 01:05, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Response Ironically, this article passes WP:COMPANY - "has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the company or corporation itself" Valoem ^talk 01:56, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please know that consensus trumps a guideline. So any irony would be academic in nature. HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 02:11, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment I am not sure I know excatly what you mean. He cited WP:COMPANY as a reason for deletion, however when I read the article it actually supported my inclusion, hence the irony. Since WP is not a vote for consensus, I believe I countered his argument. Valoem ^talk 03:01, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.