The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Tawker (talk) 07:13, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Jennifer Rattray[edit]

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I do not see notability. Neither the news reader career northe university career is notable, and the references are all local. The point of not relying of such local refs for notability of local people under the GNG is thatthey tend to be indiscriminate. DGG ( talk ) 18:59, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with DGG. This individual has numerous noteworthy accomplishment. 1 Rattray was a local newsreader, 2) she starred in a made for TV film on the TNN network, and 3) she is the first (yes first) Associate Vice President of Indigenous, Government, and Community Affairs. I am sure this position is relatively unique among universities in Canada, and possibly the world. It would be a shame if the world was not made aware of her contributions to news reading, TV acting, and university governing. Do not silence the voice of this strong first nations women, I beg you, please keep the Wikipedia entry alive! RussTBagg (talk) 22:12, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

— RussTBagg (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Delete - Unless there is something else that isn't already in the article. I'm afraid she might not meet notability standards. Perhaps her career as a journalist might help the cause; did she win any notable awards? The VP of most universities is not notable, neither is the president. The associate VP of Indigenous, government, and community affairs probably isn't going to cut it, I'm sorry to say. Bali88 (talk) 22:55, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

::Awards Yes, indeed she did win many fine and noteworthy awards: a Manitoba Motion Picture Blizzard Award, two Gracie Allen Awards from the Foundation of American Women in Radio and Television, New York City, and several Radio and Television News Directors Association and Can-Pro awards. Ballsdeep Singh (talk) 04:12, 27 March 2014 (UTC)— Ballsdeep Singh (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. *Keep I also disagree with DGG and Bali88. She is a Canadian legend, a journalist, has starred in a movie with Rob Lowe, and is a pioneer in her community. She is likely the first indigenous VP in a Canadian university, which is very notable. Deleting the page is an affront to her people and is neo-colonial. Decuw[reply]

Is she really that famous in Canada? Bali88 (talk) 02:50, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

:::Indeed Bali88 Rattrey is a bit of a local celebrity in Manitoba, and her profile is well known across First Nations and Indigenous communities in Canada. She is a pioneer who speaks across the country on issue facing her people. On top of this, she is married to a well-known Football coach, is a local film actress who has starred alongside Rob Lowe and was the first Female Aboriginal News Anchor in Canada, as well as a TV host on the Canadian national Women's Televison Network (WTN) in the mid-1990s. She truly is notable. Ballsdeep Singh (talk) 03:34, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Based on contribution histories, I'm assuming that ballsdeep singh, Decuw, and dickphatsingh are all alternate usernames for you (which, for the record, that's just fine, several users have alternate accounts), but FYI, you are only entitled one vote per person per AFD. :-) Bali88 (talk) 13:27, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

:::::::::: Bali88 I am confused? I thought this was a discussion, not a vote? Can we not be part of an inclusive dialogue? Ballsdeep Singh (talk) 13:31, 27 March 2014 (UTC) — Ballsdeep Singh (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

You can discuss it at much and as passionately as you want. The part that I'm pointing out is that you put "keep" in bold twice, which makes it appear that two people voted to keep as opposed to only one. If you think she's notable, you should argue that point till your heart's content. I unbolded it for you ;-) Bali88 (talk) 13:35, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

~~:::::::::::: Miigwech! (that is thank-you in Ojibwa) Ballsdeep Singh (talk) 14:27, 27 March 2014 (UTC)— Ballsdeep Singh (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.~~ [reply]

Also, just in case there was any confusion, it's not a vote in terms of majority wins. What happens is an admin takes into account the way the vote went, but also looks at the arguments that are made. So like if a church of satan leader were to come up to AFD and three people voted to keep him on the notability factor, and 17 came by and voted to delete because his work was blasphemous, it's unlikely to be deleted despite a 17-3 vote to delete. That argument lacks merit. Also, if the vote is going the other way for this particular article, what another option would be is to do a redirect and have a blurb about her on another article. Perhaps University of Winnipeg or First Nation under notable First Nation people. :-)Bali88 (talk) 14:59, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Frankly, I would translate "local celebrity" as "not notable for the purposes of an encyclopedia." DGG ( talk ) 05:37, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The article text says she "had a small role in the 2002 made for TV film Framed which starred Rob Lowe." Arguing here that she's notable because she "starred in a movie with Rob Lowe" and "starred alongside Rob Lowe" seems a bit of a stretch. Also, how does being married to a high school football coach make someone notable? He doesn't even have his own Wikipedia article to establish that he's notable but this is somehow supposed to make his wife notable. Cmr08 (talk) 06:15, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't silence the voice of this pathbreaking Aboriginal Woman. Deleting this article would be confirmation of neocolonial practices at Wikipedia. I pray to the Creator that you will not carry out such an act of cultural genocide. Haven't our First Nations people suffered enough? Miigwech! Ballsdeep Singh (talk) 13:31, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Manitoba-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:05, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:05, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of News media-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:05, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:05, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Like many legends, there's only a kernel of truth here (or, in this case, notability). --Randykitty (talk) 16:53, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Mid-level administrator, news reader, and "local celebrity" are not notable per se, regardless of her ethnic heritage. Agricola44 (talk) 19:13, 27 March 2014 (UTC).[reply]
Very weak keep per WP:BARE - as an associate VP of a university, she's not clearly notable, but there might be enough sources to get her to general notability as a first First Canadian to get to such positions of power. I am concerned this might be used as a soapboax or coatrack for other issues and controversies. I removed a BLP violaiton. Bearian (talk) 19:38, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The wording in the article lede is a little convoluted, but I don't think it says that she is the first First Canadian to be appointed to a particular established position. Rather, it appears that a new position called "Associate Vice-President of Indigenous, Government, and Community Affairs" was created at her institution and that she (who happens to be a First Canadian) is the inaugural holder. Such a position is akin to an assistant provost at US institutions, i.e. a mid-level administrative position and therefore not notable per se, regardless of her ethnic heritage. I think this misunderstanding is fueled by the assertion above from Decuw: "She is likely the first indigenous VP in a Canadian university, which is very notable" (emphasis mine). This is bald speculation. Agricola44 (talk) 20:31, 27 March 2014 (UTC).[reply]

Thank you, changing to delete. Bearian (talk) 17:36, 31 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Notability not found under WP:Prof or WP:GNG. Xxanthippe (talk) 23:07, 27 March 2014 (UTC).[reply]
Delete. Subject may have local visibility, including a mention in the local newspaper whereby she was accused of selling out to oil interests on behalf of her employer[1]; but cannot find evidence of WP:GNG, WP:ACADEMIC, WP:JOURNALIST. Did not find support in Ojibwe/a//y (Chippewa) either; though someone with specific language skills could provide evidence.Truth or consequences-2 (talk) 14:40, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Delete due to lack of reliable independent secondary sources. Accuracy concerns also expressed (as is very common in such cases) - see Ticket:2014032810016211. Guy (Help!) 23:12, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as non notable person, Fails GNG. →Davey2010→→Talk to me!→ 00:55, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

*~~keep~~ This strong aboriginal woman is a national icon and an inspiration to aspiring news readers and administrators coast to coast. Keep the entry. RussTBagg (talk) 17:30, 31 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You get one vote, dude. I gave you the benefit of the doubt the first time. Bali88 (talk) 18:39, 31 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

~~:::: Wow! Thanks, I guess? RussTBagg (talk) 20:13, 1 April 2014 (UTC)~~[reply]

Delete - nevermind the support from the sockpuppets a lack of independent, reliable secondary sources indciates that the subject fails WP:BLPNOTE. Flat Out let's discuss it 04:17, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any argument that local notability for underrepresented minorities could constitute notability? valereee (talk) 13:08, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if there is any precedent for this. I would be fine with keeping it if so. Unfortunately, due to notability requirements, wikipedia is skewed toward whatever biases our society has. There may be an argument there. Bali88 (talk) 13:16, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This would be a form of special pleading to relax requirements for an under-represented group. We typically reject this line of argument, for example here and here. Agricola44 (talk) 15:58, 1 April 2014 (UTC).[reply]

Delete – this is a non-notable person. Besides, sockpuppet votes don't count. Epicgenius (talk) 15:53, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, if the rules are the rules and Canadian TV news readers are not "notable" according to Wiki Policy, why are the following entries not also removed: Camilla Di Giuseppe, Denelle Balfour, Nathalie Chung, Kris Reyes, Janet Stewart just to name a few? Why single this entry out? Fairness? RussTBagg (talk) 20:25, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

My suggestion is to stick this in your sandbox and keep it there so that if later, she gains some notability, you won't lose your work. Also, what I think will fly is to include a mention of her on the page about First Nation people. Many articles have sections like "notable people" that she could very easily fit into. If this page gets deleted, which it probably will, you could do a redirect to that page. Bali88 (talk) 21:24, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

::::okay, fair enough. But what about my point above regarding other pages of non-notable TV readers? Are these all due to be deleted? Did you check any of the above pages? Just curious. RussTBagg (talk) 21:38, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I did not. The above people may or may not meet notability standards and quite possibly be up for deletion if someone nominates them. Sometimes it's just a case of one article has been noticed and another has not. "Other stuff exists" is not supposed to be a rationale for inclusion in wikipedia and there are guidelines against use of that rationale in AFD discussions. I'd really love for her to find a place in wikipedia, but I'm not sure that there is an argument to be made for her own article. I think a mention on Aboriginal Canadian personalities is your best bet at this point in time. If she is as noteworthy as you say she is, there will be more news coverage of her in coming years and you can try again then. Also, you might look into joining Wikipedia:WikiProject Discrimination. Your interest in improving articles on indigenous Canadians could really be a blessing on wikipedia :-) Bali88 (talk) 22:01, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

She also may have a place on the University of Winnipeg page. Bali88 (talk) 21:16, 2 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That argument is a non-sequitur – each article is evaluated on its own merit. But since you brought it up, please note that several of these have either been notability-tagged or brought to AfD since yesterday. Agricola44 (talk) 12:32, 2 April 2014 (UTC).[reply]

Is the strikethrough of all the comments really necessary? He didn't deny being all posters and I already cancelled the multiple votes and pointed out that all are the one poster. His viewpoint on the topic is still relevant, imo. Bali88 (talk) 00:25, 3 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Since those comments are from a block evading sock, yes. "Anyone is free to revert any edits made in violation of a block." per WP:EVADE. Flat Out let's discuss it 09:27, 3 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Was he making comments after another account was blocked? Maybe I just have too much sympathy for people, but I think this user could be a useful editor to wikipedia. I don't think he did any of this with malice. I'd hate to think he's indefinitely blocked. Bali88 (talk) 13:53, 3 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.