The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 10:52, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

List of people on the postage stamps of the Democratic Republic of the Congo[edit]

List of people on the postage stamps of the Democratic Republic of the Congo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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This article fails WP:LISTN. It has been dePRODed. It was unsourced upon its creation in 2004, and has been tagged accordingly since 2010. MY WP:BEFORE is turning up zero evidence that the phenomenon of people appearing on Congolese stamps has SIGCOV in RS. The closest I found is this, a table-breakdown analysis of all Congolese stamps which notes that presidents have appeared on 69 stamps. That's not SIGCOV of the phenomenon of people appearing on these stamps. Likewise, all other info I'm seeing about Congolese stamps discuss them broadly in such a fashion geared towards information that can be placed at Postage stamps and postal history of the Democratic Republic of the Congo. It's time we remove this 18-year-old relic which has no basis in RS. -Indy beetle (talk) 07:03, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Lists of people and Democratic Republic of the Congo. Shellwood (talk) 07:13, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete exactly the same as all the others. Nominator clearly did a WP:BEFORE to prove that the underlying topic -- that is, "these people have appeared on stamps in this country" -- is not substantiated by any sources. Even if a catalog can verify every entry on this list, no relevance or encyclopedic merit has been placed on the list as a whole. All of these AFDs, and not one person has given a valid, policy based reason to keep. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 07:20, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep I've seen a book about this before somewhere, obviously sources exist 2601:2C3:57F:3F80:2CF6:872A:911D:531B (talk) 07:27, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• WP:PROVEIT. -Indy beetle (talk) 08:11, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete There was a very good and deep search for sources done above, and it showed absolutely nothing. Actually the link say royalty/presidents, and gives other numbers for other iterations of the place. Some of the other categories probably include stamps with people, clearly the closest we have to a reliable source discussing the topic at all does not think people are even notable as a dinstict class. Also those numbers would seem to lead us to believe that this list of less than 40 people is probably not even close to comprehensive. Articles should not stand for even 18 hours without sources, arguably not 18 minutes because they should have a source for their birth. 18 years is just plain insane. I would say it is a record but Lists of people on postage stamps holds the record since it lasted for over 20 years with no sources at all. I know Wikipedia was born in 2001, I am not sure exactly what day of the year though, so Wikipedia may not be 21 yet.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:00, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article I mentioned still has no sources. People have proposed some sources in the deletion page, but I am not convinced those sources support having that article.

Comment. This is a difficult situation, as the likely sources for this are offline. For example:

1. Adair, T. Stewart. The Belgian Congo: The Stamps of the Belgian Congo . London: AJSefi, 1925
2. Coq, André de. The Belgian Congo and its postmarks, evaluation of the postmarks of the Belgian Congo . Antwerp: R-Editions, 1986 ISBN 9068120107 217p. Originally published in 1931.
3. Du Four, Jean and Rene Goffin. Congo, fifty years of postal history . sl: Editions of the Postal Review, 1962 507p.
4. Gallant, Roger. History of the postal service in the Belgian Congo = De geschiedenis van de postdienst in Belgisch Kongo: 1886-1960 . Brussels: The Author, 2005 2 volumes (Volume 2 is subtitled: De Postzegels)
5. Gudenkauf, Abbe G. Belgian Congo: Postal History of the Lado Enclave, 1897-1910 . Newbury: Philip Cockrill, 1985 144p.
6. Keach, RH A Philatelic Bibliography of the Belgian Congo and Ruanda Urundi . Tadworth, Surrey: R. Keach, 1976 85p.
7. Mallet-Veale, H. The Stamps of the Belgian Congo and Belgian East Africa . Johannesburg: The South African Philatelist, 1928 39p.
8. Oh, John. The Belgian Congo in 1940-1950 . Neufchateau? : The Author?, 1992 51p.
9. Frenay, J. M. Postal History of the Congo Free State . ? : The Author, 1991 30p.

I'd bet a search of the above wound be fruitful, but of course can't run AfD based on speculation. CT55555 (talk) 13:09, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Other relevant content, probably not enough coverage to call significant:

• Page 45 through to 50 does talk about the representation of people on postage stamps produced by France during colonial years https://constellation.uqac.ca/2379/1/Vol_30_no_2.pdf
• Page 101 briefly mentioned a 1898 example https://www.rpsl.org.uk/gplstatic/BL_CrawfordDocs/016670032.pdf CT55555 (talk) 13:19, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• France doesn’t have a relationship here. That’s the other Congo. -Indy beetle (talk) 13:29, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• This quote from an early version of what was then called List of people on postage stamps is illustrative of the mindset behind creating such lists. "Although many smaller countries will put a hodge-podge of international personalities on their stamps in an effort to make sales to collectors, countries with a more respectable issuing policy will more often feature people who have played an important role in the country's own history and culture. For a Wikipedian, a list of such people can be a source of inspiration to find more obscure topics to write about." That people lists all stamps and create complete catalogs of them does not show that Wikipedia needs comprehensive lists of all stamps, and even less so a specified list of people on stamps. Sources on the postal history of the Democratic Republic of the Congo and its predecessors should be used to back Postage stamps and postal history of the Democratic Republic of the Congo (I really do not see why the article is not just called Postal history of the Democratic Republic of the Congo, but that is a different issue. Showing that such sources exist in no way demonstrates that they treat the sub-set of stamps showing people as a group, let alone as a group that we need to cover by listing every single person who has been shown on such stamps, as opposed to just having a general article such as Trends in who is shown on postage stamps of the Democratic Republic of the Congo or whatever a non-list topic article would be. The Democratic Republic of the Congo was not under French colonial rule, so I am not sure why the source above talking about "the representation of people on postage stamps produced by France during the colonial years" has any relevance to a place that was under Belgian colonial control. Did Tippu Tip or the King of Kongo ever operate a postal system? Also keep in mind talking about "the representation of people on postage stamps" is a source that backs an article that talks about the representation of people on postage stamps (but not everything that you can find a source somewhere that discusses is an actual good topic for an article), just because some people talk about a topic broadly, does not mean we need comprehensive lists that seek to document every person who has ever been pictured on a postage stamp.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:33, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment I am not sure how any of the sources given above show a coverage of this particular topic in a way that justifies inclusion. Some of them look to be self published sources as well, which are often reliable. Wikipedia is not meant to be based on every source or document ever made, it is supposed to be built on references to reliable, secondary sources.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:28, 17 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. The list of sources above is rather desperate. Ignoring the one for French Congo, already correctly dismissed, we have things like "The Belgian Congo and its postmarks, evaluation of the postmarks of the Belgian Congo " (which is, you guessed it, about postmarks, not about stamps), or "Postal History of the Lado Enclave, 1897-1910", about a period when one person had appeared on the stamps, so rather unlikely to be a good source for this list. For the source "Oh, John. The Belgian Congo in 1940-1950", I can't even verify that it exists. "Postal History of the Congo Free State" again has the small problem that the only person on these stamps is Leopold II, so not a good source for this topic either. "The Stamps of the Belgian Congo and Belgian East Africa" is from 1928, so could perhaps if we are lucky mention 2 of these stamps. While some of these sources may be useful perhaps for a general article on Congolese stamps, there is no indication at all (and for quite a few a counterindication) that they may be of any use in determining notability for this list. Fram (talk) 14:51, 17 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Postage stamps and postal history of the Democratic Republic of the Congo is indeed where that list of sources came from, it would seem. -Indy beetle (talk) 17:39, 17 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.