The result was delete. ‑Scottywong| prattle _ 02:04, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Despite the claims in the article's opening sentence that this is a hybrid martial art, most of the sources seem only to recognise 'Nabi Su' as a New York based martial arts school. Even then, specific discussion of Nabi Su is painfully thin. Much of the article's content seems to be original research or at best a novel synthesis of fact. For example: the article contains the claim "Perhaps most importantly, however, Pai studied Yang style T'ai Chi Ch'uan with 4th generation Yang style t'ai chi master Cheng Man-ch'ing." this assertion is cited to a you tube video that shows Cheng Man-ch'ing practising Tai Chi (alone); it in no way supports the claim that Pai studied under him. The Halevy reference is about as close as any reference in this article comes to demonstrating notability, but it doesn't actually focus on Nabi Su as an art/style/school; it simply discusses Tai chi and includes Carolyn Campora. Some of the sources offer discussion of Pai and, to a lesser extent, Yun Mu Kwan, but the subject of this article is Nabi Su and I can find precious little sources to demonstrate the notability of this subject. Bellerophon talk to me 13:02, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
Reply Part 1: Reliable Sources and Notability In answer to Bellerophon's comments above: This martial art style is notable. 1) Popular Science magazine did a feature article on this martial art style in 1968. The referenced URL link will lead you directly to the article. The article was written when the style was named "Yun Mu Kwan Karate." The name was changed to "Nabi Su" in 1987. 2) The referenced memoir "Ambivalent Zen" features descriptions of the developing Yun Mu Kwan/Nabi Su Tai Chi and Kung Fu style throughout the book. The memoir was written by Lawrence Shainberg, a well known author. It was published in 1995 by Random House, in hardcover and paperback, and is still in print. 3) Ramon Korff, the photographer who documented the early Yun Mu Kwan Karate/Nabi Su years, is a Pulitzer prize winning photographer. Some of his photos from 1964 have been retrieved from the Puerto Rican Spanish language newspaper archives of "El Dia," now known as "El Nuevo Dia." Other photographs taken by him include a visit to Yun Mu Kwan/Nabi Su by Eido Tai Shimano Roshi. Eido Roshi is an internationally known Roshi, author and founder of the Zen Studies Society, New York Zendo Shobo-Ji (a New York City Zendo) and Dai Bosatsu Zendo Kongo-Ji (a New York State Monastery). These photographs document notable events. 4)An article from the now defunct Connecticut Weekly newspaper "Fairpress," which was a division of the Gannett publishing company, discussed Min Pai's "zen healing."
These are all wide ranging, professional, reliable sources.
Unfortunately, many of these sources predate the internet and are not currently available on-line. The 1968 Popular Science article is available on-line.
It should also be noted that none of the publications listed above are martial arts vanity presses or martial art specialty sources. It is indeed rare for a martial art style with so few practitioners to receive notable references from main steam publications spanning nearly five decades.
Nabi Su has been a unique evolving style for more than 50 years. Although it does not have a large number of practitioners, because it is notable, the New York Times, the health/exercise cable TV program "Workout From Within," Sinovision Cable TV, and other news media have requested Nabi Su practitioners to comment or appear on their programs. (To further document Nabi Su's notability, I have added a second Halvey "Workout from Within" reference from a different episode, and I have added a reference to the SinoVision English Language Chinese News cable TV program.)
Reply Part 2: Chinese Style or Hybrid Martial Art? Nabi Su is an accepted American grown "Chinese Style" form of Kung Fu. For example, SinoVision English Language cable TV channel invited Nabi Su practitioners to perform at the media "kick off" celebration of the new Shanghai Television cable TV show "A Fist Full of Kung Fu." Their purpose in selecting Nabi Su Kung Fu as the only performers for their media event was to highlight the interrelationship of Chinese and American martial arts culture. Nabi Su is also correctly classified as a "modern hybrid martial art." It is not a hybrid martial art in the sense of "Mixed Martial Arts" which have come to mean an aggressive sport/fighting style. It is a hybrid in the sense that it developed from varied influences which have evolved into a new, unique, identifiable style of its own. Some modern hybrids are famous - Jeet Kune Do - for example, while other are little known - Bartitsu, Sanjuro. The Wikipedia "List Chinese of Chinese Martial Arts" includes a section of "Modern Hybrids" under which are listed several styles developed and primarily practiced in the United States and other countries outside of China. I originally placed the Nabi Su article under that listing, but other editors believe it was improperly placed there. Although I disagree, I understand the reasoning, and therefore listing Nabi Su under the separate Hybrid Martial Art style would also be appropriate.
Reply Part 3: YouTube Links and Extraneous Material Removed The Nabi Su article was substantially rewritten by other editors who added numerous YouTube links and made other changes which added much information that was not strictly about Nabi Su and its creation. I have deleted substantial extraneous material. I look forward to continue improving this article and meeting all of Wikipedia's guidelines. Mary Vaccaro (talk) 07:59, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
Reply to Papaursa's Comments The Popular Science article is introducing "Karate" to the American public. It was written in 1968. The article goes into great detail about the moves in the style, what the stances look like, the punches, the routine of the class, the slow motion movement of the forms, the fast movement of the sparring. It has many references to and direct quotes from Min Pai. For example, I quote the article:
I highly disagree that the article only gives a "passing mention." The entire article is the reporter's detailed description of what he sees, feels and is taught by Min Pai at the Yun Mu Kwan Karate Institute.
In answer to your concern that "the school/art has 1 teacher who does all kung fu classes and no locations outside of NYC", I have added a new section listing four schools that are currently teaching versions of Min Pai's Nabi Su style. All of these schools share the same history, all are independently run, and none of them are currently associated with each other. There are a few other people teaching the style, but I am not authorized to list their schools. I imagine now that a list is created, others may expand it. Thank you for suggesting this improvement.
As to the fact that I have made few other contributions, yes, this is my first article, and I will be writing/collaborating on more articles. This is not my only interest. It is my first article and I will continue improving it and defending it. I have been studying Wikipedia guidelines, and I intend to be an active and responsible editor on various subjects.
I know there are not too many women editors/contributors, and that is another reason that I intend to contribute and be an active Wikipedian.
Please let me know what other information you need to improve this article.
Mary Vaccaro (talk) 05:14, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
Reply to Bellerophon's Comments 1) Perhaps the Nabi Su article is not clear enough, and I will work to correct it. Min Pai developed Nabi Su out of the art he originally learned in Korea. Although the art he was taught was called Yun Mu Kwan, Min Pai, from the time he opened his own school in the 1950's, was actively changing and evolving his original style. The school that was called "The Yun Mu Kwan Karate Institute" is what came to be called Nabi Su. It does not refer to the old Yun Mu Kwan style. (This might be similar to stating that in an article called "The Beatles," discussing "The Quarrymen" is actually a different subject and not the Beatles. "The Qarrymen" were an early version of the Beatles. They changed the name when they realized someone else already had it.) Min Pai changed the name from Yun Mu Kwan to Nabi Su to differentiate what he was practicing from the name of the old style he originally learned in Korea. He did not change the name to Nabi Su and then create the style. After creating the style, he changed the name. Discussing Min Pai's martial art style during the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s is discussing Nabi Su. The name was changed AFTER the style was developed. The Nabi Su Wikipedia article is about Min Pai's development of a new martial art style that combined his Korean art with Chinese Kung Fu, Chinese Tai Chi, and Japanese Zazen. These changes occurred over decades. By the early 1970s, he was already accentuating the Kung Fu, Tai Chi and Zazen aspects of the practice over the few remaining Korean elements. By the time of the official name change, the style was already fully and uniquely developed into a new art. Any discussion of Min Pai's style, especially from the late 1960s through the 1970s is necessarily about the Nabi Su style. The original Korean Yun Mu Kwan that Pai learned was long gone by then. (When one searches for the history of the original Yun Mu Kwan as taught in Korea, it seems to have disappeared as its own art form, and it seems to have been melded into the foundation of Tai Kwan Do. Yun Mu Kwan is not a style that is currently practiced or known as a style, as far as I can see, in the United States. Even in Korea, it seems to be more of a historical style.) The "Yun Mu Kwan" in the names of the currently practicing schools that are related to Nabi Su do not refer to the old, original Yun Mu Kwan style, they refer to the style Min Pai created and eventually renamed "Nabi Su." To differentiate themselves, the four remaining Min Pai schools have taken on differing names, largely based upon where they were in their relationship with Min Pai or where they were in the evolution of the style: "Yun Mu Kwan," "Nabi Su," "Min Pai's Yun Mu Kwan," and "Wellspring Zen Monastery."
2) Regarding the number of female editors, Wikipedia states: "Information on the gender gap can be found at meta:Gender gap. The significant and stable under-representation of women results in persistently unbalanced coverage (e.g. articles related to football are much more developed than articles related to motherhood) in Wikipedia. The gender gap may be driven significantly by Wikipedia's conflict-oriented culture. Experienced female editors can be very successful—they are more likely to become administrators than men—but they are more likely to leave if treated aggressively in discussions, especially as new editors, when their good-faith contributions are more likely to be reverted than a similarly good-faith contribution by a man." Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedians
Mary Vaccaro (talk) 05:00, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
Reply to SMcCandlish: Thank you for your remarks. I agree that this article needs editorial help. I will study the manual of style and make corrections over the weekend. I appreciate any further advice you may have on improving this article. I would also appreciate any editorial contributions and/or guidance from other knowledgeable editors. Mary Vaccaro (talk) 01:54, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
Question about Inappropriate Remarks by "Anonyous User" How do I deal with an anonymous user who keeps adding statements that one of the 4 Nabi Su schools is not "authorized to teach" etc.? As soon as I removed the remarks, they get replaced. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mary Vaccaro (talk • contribs) 02:31, 10 July 2014 (UTC)