The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Despite the massive amount of argumentless keep votes (which hold no weight as AFD is not a ballot), the concern of the nomination (verifiability) was not addressed. This article is a POV fork, and no relevant, reliable sources or any other material were presented that could make this not a POV fork. --Coredesat 03:20, 9 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

North America (Americas)[edit]

North America (Americas) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Point-of-view fork of North America (which is well sourced), confusing the topic. As well, the sources listed don't generally support the content: the English Encarta reference[1] indicates that North America is a continent which is also comprised of Greenland, Saint-Pierre and Miquelon, and Bermuda and then goes on to indicate that it sometimes includes the region of Central America and the West Indies; the Spanish version[2] may indicate it is instead a subcontinent with the same constituents. The Crystal reference[3] indicates too that it is a continent that also includes the West Indies. (Throughout, Canada, the United States, and Mexico are included.) Article content (even if one believes that there are other continental models) may be added or carried over to North America, where the creation of this article was neither discussed nor consensually agreed to, but I do not believe there is anything not already at North America or cannot be. Corticopia 10:41, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: POV FORK page states that:
"POV forks usually arise when two or more contributors disagree about the content of an article or other page, and instead of resolving that disagreement, someone creates another version of the article (or another article on the same subject) to be developed according to their personal views rather than according to consensus."
This is not POV forking about North America, since the article was not created based in a disagreement in that article. As a fact, the article North America has no debate going on. This article was created to provide a link for the Template:Regions of the world that had a link to North America (as a continent). North America (continent) and North America as a region/subcontinent are two different concepts. North America as a region/subcontinent is a valid term used in Latin America, parts of Europe (including Italy, Germany, Portugal, Spain) and Asia, under the single American continent geographical model.
This page should not be deleted because it deserves an article on its own, just as Middle America (Americas), another region of NORTH AMERICA has its own. Middle America/North America are also regions within the Americas and both in the North American continent.
About the sources, this is a new article (just 2 days old) and I was working on it, it was not completed yet. I have added more sources now, as the AfD tag indicates I can improve the article. If this was the case for nomination, then you should have asked for more sources, not nominate it for AfD. AlexCovarrubias ( Let's talk! ) 18:22, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As stated above and below: of course it's a fork (regardless of recent additions), and the decision to nominate it well considered and not at all hasty. Nor was this article based on a consensus, since the North America article (as you put it) has 'no debate going on' -- so it isn't based on any agreements, either. While definitions of this and that may vary, I did not agree to the creation of this article. I defer to other comments herein. Corticopia 18:15, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I repeat, this article was not created because of a disagreement with the current article North America, so it is not POV forking according to its definition, nor it was based in "personal views" since the souces provided clearly indicate the existence of North America as a region. There is a WP policy called Be bold, so I created this article based in that and most importantly, to provide a link in the Template:Regions of the world that had no link to North America as a region, but a link to North America as a continent. This has nothing to do with the article North America.AlexCovarrubias ( Let's talk! ) 13:58, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
With your phrase "I did not agree to the creation of this article", you want to give the feeling/impression that we were having a disagreement about North America, which is false and very low from you. We never had a disagreement about this theme. In fact, when we were discussing "Middle America (Americas)" and I conceded, we both agreed that there are several geographical models applied to the Americas.AlexCovarrubias ( Let's talk! ) 18:33, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That is your opinion -- what else would you call this but a disagreement? Read the very content you added about forking above. There may be other models, but that doesn't mean creating a fork is at all a way to deal with the topic. I may believe that North America is part of the American continent (particularly if you heed the Olympics), but North America should be updated instead. Middle America is well-sourced (hell, pull out a dictionary) and different. I will not respond to other notions in your prior comment. Corticopia 18:39, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As well, AC's recent source additions do not validate the article. In the Broadband reference (emphasis mine), for example, it notes "considerable variation [in networks] between the three major countries comprising North America: Canada, Mexico, and the USA." Read: major (in population, area, economy), while not discussing the minor ones that are also part of the continent. Corticopia 18:53, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
When NA is defined as a region, it sometimes includes St. Pierre and Bermuda, as clearly indicated in this article. However, it is very important to note that the title of the study mention REGIONAL and it only comprises US, Can and Mex, proving that NA is also a region. However, there are more important references listed! AlexCovarrubias ( Let's talk! ) 19:02, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This proves nothing: the title notes both 'regional' and 'country' and, as above, the content notes the continent. And you still have not reputably sourced when it IS defined specifically as a region -- if it is as you say, it shouldn't be difficult to cite. And this can still be incorporated into the bona fide article Again, straw man arguments don't justify this fork. Corticopia 19:37, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The real problem here is that America Central is not part of Nortamerica while Central America is part of North America and this a very subtle nuance of translations that gets missed by editors not paying attention to the details. So there's a lot of fighting going on across a few geography articles. Plus, for some reason there's a few Latin American editors who really like Manifest Destiny so they go across articles changing the Americas to America and insisting they're American. Which pisses off that hoser crowd that's actually proud of our national identity eh? So emotions are high and there's one or two shit disturbers about.
Ultimately, encyclopaedias are bad sources. But not unusable ones.
So what we have here is a fork from a very similar but not quite identical article. Does this deserve a split? I have no idea.\
I hate the title - it sucks the sweat off monkeys' balls. But that's not an issue for AfD.
Despite being intimately involved in a lot of the relevent disputes and articles, I'm restricting myself for now to no vote, even though AfD is not a vote. I'd rather have disinterested observers give their opinions - I think I may not see the forest from the trees. WilyD 14:46, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I honestly think what makes this not a POV fork is that the article was not created to split North America or because of a disagreement with other editors in the article North America. It was created to explain North America as part of another geographic model that consider it a region/subcontinent. Finally, I created the article when I saw the Template:Regions of the world lacked a link to North America as a region. Other regions where there, such as Middle America, the Caribbean, Central America and South America (that doesn't seem to have the same problem as NA). AlexCovarrubias ( Let's talk! ) 15:07, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: There can be no confussion, that is what I also created the article North America (disambiguation). AlexCovarrubias ( Let's talk! ) 16:17, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
How can you outright dismiss concerns regarding confusion? The article itself states Using this geographical model ... with absolutely no attempt to explain which geographical model "this" refers to. The overwhelming consensus in the world is that the term North America refers to a continent as described in the North America article. The issue of there existing an alternative, minority definiton of the term warrants inclusion in the North America article, but not a standalone entry of its own. Arkyan 16:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: If you check the interwikis of North America, you can see the world using North America as a whole continent AND/OR using North America as a region which includes just Canada, United States, Mexico, Greenland, Bermuda and St. Pierre and Miquelon. JC 2 March 2007, 10:16 (PST)
Comment: And in recent edits to the 'Regions of the World' template, the link to the continent was previously replaced with the one to the region/fork (while retaining South America), as if the continent is not a region in and of itself. If this isn't proof positive of forking/POV-pushing, I don't know what is. Corticopia 18:23, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: South America is a continent (two continent model) and a subcontinent/region of America (single continent model). South America doesn't need to have 2 separate articles as North America does (continent and region), because in both geographical models, South America comprises the SAME area. AlexCovarrubias ( Let's talk! ) 18:28, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment There is no need for separate articles, and the creation of a fork signals either an inability to incorporate content in that article and compromise and, since there has been no recent discussion on that talk page (as you say), an attempt to confuse and conflate the issue. Again, it's a fork, plain and simple -- right intent, wrong method. And that's it. Corticopia 18:32, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - the page hasn't been spammed, El_bart089, was simply asking to users in the Spanish wikipedia, to give their opinion into this discussion. Supaman89 22:18, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - the above cited example example very clearly asks the user in question to come to this debate and vote keep so long as they have an English language wiki account and edit history. It says nothing at all about asking for an opinion - it's a request for a specific vote. If that's not WP:CANVASSING, I don't know what is. Arkyan 22:24, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Per Arkyan ... and, of course, the account was created today in what is arguably an attempt to stack the poll. An uninvolved administrator needs to get involved here. Corticopia 22:26, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Furthermore, a little bit of investigating shows that Supaman89 and El_bart089 are the same person. Arkyan 22:29, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment You wish. I only asked some of my fellow editors of Wikipedia for their support in this case if they also happen to be active colaborators in this project. I have the same username in all the projects I colaborate with. I don't know who that other user is. AlexCovarrubias ( Let's talk! ) 00:02, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Nevermind, now I know who that other user is, Supaman. AlexCovarrubias ( Let's talk! ) 00:42, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Anyhow, I'll repeat what I said in my previous comment:
"One thing is NA as a continent and another very different is NA as a region, Wikipedia already has the first article that I mentioned but it doesn't have the second one, therefore it is not a duplicate, instead it is a whole different article about a whole different thing, one is about the Continent and the other is about the Region. AlexCovarruvias, has given consistent evidence supporting the existence of such region and the integration and interaction between Mex, Can and US. Supaman89 23:43, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Editors can make whatever conclusion they wish, particularly in light of the explicit canvassing of 'keep' votes elsewhere. Administrators will be notified; otherwise, I defer to my prior comments: once a fork ...Corticopia 00:14, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Clearly the article is not clear enough on what you're talking about. If it were, it wouldn't be up for deletion. It's very confusing, and took me about ten minutes to figure out what the difference is. It's also poorly titled, as I stated a few lines above. It makes it seem as if you're referring to the North America in the Americas as opposed to the North America in Eurasia. The problem is that the article is very short, and needs to be beefed up. It makes sense that there are two main regions of North America: Central America and Mexico-north. So an article on North America (Region) is expected. Unfortunately, you can't put a lot of information in NA(A) that isn't already in NA, as that would make it seem more of a fork. Unlike Central America or Western Europe, which all have significant regional histories and specific qualities, NA(A) doesn't have anything that isn't already added into NA or the country articles. If there is something that truly makes NA(A) stand out from North America, add it to the article and prove me wrong. --MPD T / C 02:31, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Actually, it may not be so simple. As proof-positive of the agenda behind this article, let's not forget that there is a strong argument for a 'region' of the Americas entitled North America that includes just Canada and the United States (akin to Anglo-America or Northern America) -- as opposed to Latin America -- which are bound by history, language, culture, economy, military, etc. Even if I were to believe that (and a number of sources do indicate that), though, such notions should be added to North America -- actually, they already are. Corticopia 06:56, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You're really pathetic, first you move Envidia's VOTE (Why? only you know...) and now you try to invalidate it. Or what is the purpose of your comment? One thing was Envidia's comment (maybe he didn't decide his vote yet) and then another thing is his vote. AlexCovarrubias ( Let's talk! ) 23:36, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Because, amidst all of this text and users who excessively comment, it may be difficult for an editor or admin to discern Envidia's 'Comment' from their vote lines below. And 'flattery' will get you absolutely nowhere, and will not be indulged. Keep up the good work. Corticopia 23:48, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The question is, do you know what flattery is? Because you're the one that always use personal attacks/profanity as stated here. AlexCovarrubias ( Let's talk! ) 14:04, 4 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No comment regarding continued ad hominem arguments/edits. Corticopia 14:10, 4 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Actually, the article can still be edited and enhanced by registered users. Corticopia 23:55, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Theshowmecanuck 16:01, 4 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment:You're wrong. The debate in Central America was not the inclusion of Mexico in the region (we know that physiographically/geollogically a southeastern portion of Mexico is in CA), but the inclusion of all the definitions in a very NPOV wording. That debate ended days (if not weeks) ago, and the result was the inclusion of all the terms in the usage section. I only created this page to provide a link in the Template:Regions of the world, in which "North America" linked to the continent, instead of the region. That's all. This page should not be deleted because it deserves an article on its own, just as Middle America (Americas), another region of NORTH AMERICA has its own. Middle America/North America are also regions within the Americas and both in the North American continent.AlexCovarrubias ( Let's talk! ) 17:20, 4 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Actually, I think he's nailed it. All things are not equal: please note that Middle America (Americas) -- with a number of reputable citations to specific definitions about the region that it is a region -- rarely includes Colombia and Venezuela too. As well, it is not to be confused with Mesoamerica (generally, culture region within 'MA') or Middle America (region, constituency) in the US separate of the others -- all of which are not generally synonymous. Anyhow, these are dealt with elsewhere (e.g., Americas (terminology) etc.) too. This article implies that the there is a fundamental difference between the continent and the 'region' that may already be addressed or can be expanded upon in the North America article (e.g., usage section, etc.), if needed. This article promotes the very confusion it may be intended to clarify. Corticopia 17:35, 4 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - How many times do I have to explain that it is not a duplicate, let's keep things simple, there's a continent called North America, that same continent is sub-divided into different regions, (Central, Northern, Middle, etc.) each of those regions have articles on their own, so why is it that the North American Region shouldn't have his own article as well??, some users say that we should merge it, then do you think we should merge all the other regions that I mentioned before within the North America article?? --Supaman89 22:05, 4 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Language matters. The other regions of North America have different names. It would be one thing to have an article called Northern North America, if people used that term, but no one does. The difference between North America (as a region consisting of the US, Canada, and Mexico) and Central America/Middle America is that the latter two aren't also the names of something else. What you're saying is that there should be a page for North America, as defined as a region of North America. Wouldn't it just be easier for there to be one page that states that "North America" is a term used to mean both a continent and a region consisting of the vast majority of that continent? If there is in total too much content for one page, then I could see a case for separate pages, but it would be easy to merge in all of the unique content of this article. Feeeshboy 22:51, 4 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Let me tell you why, because when you go to the Regions of the world template, you see that there are 3 options for the Americas, one is North, one is Central and the last one is South, so when you go to central or south, everything’s fine, but when you choose North, it sends you to the continent, not to the region, because we don't have an article for the North American Region... well, I mean, now we do, but we won't if we delete it. Supaman89 23:20, 4 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Your reasoning makes sense, but I don't think we should be creating articles purely on the basis of a scheme created by other articles. If you reach North America (the continent article) when you clicked on a link to a region, the continent page should definitely explain the use of the term as both a region and a continent, but I'm fine with that explanation, rather than an article that says "North America is a region of the continent North America." Feeeshboy 23:32, 4 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Actually, there are now eight major regions in the 'region' template pertaining to the Americas (all not mutually exclusive, and appropriate since it's plural): North America, South America, Middle America, Central America, Northern America ('northern' North America), Anglo-America, Latin America, and the Caribbean. There is a useful article (well) at Americas (terminology), with definitions and maps to clarify. As well, I compel anyone to produce a definition (from a common compendium like an encyclopedia, for example) of North America as a region -- you likely won't find one because they invariably refer to it as a continent or maybe a subcontinent. Corticopia 02:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - No one is saying that we're gonna have "multiple articles of each continent", basically, the problem here seems to be that both articles have the same name "North America", despite of the fact that they're totally different things; there are lots of places that have the same name, throughout the world (i.e. London, EN. and London, CA), but it doesn't mean that we're gonna merge them together just because they have the same name right?
This article wasn't created on the basis of the other article (regions of the world), that was just an example, we all know that there's a region called North America, and I think it deserves an article on its own, just as Middle or Central America, had their own, the only difference here is that this region shares it's name with the continent it is located on, but that's why there is the "disambiguation" Example. Supaman89 01:55, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The issue, of course, is that in English (the language, not the culture) when you divide the Americas by geography, you get North America and South America, and when you divide it by culture, you get Latin America and North America ... herein lies the problem... WilyD 15:33, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest that you read the references in this article. The argument that America as a single continent "was" a model not currently in use is false. It is currently still being taught (Latin America, some parts of Europe and Asia). Also there are several ways of dividing the Americas, geographic terms, geophysical terms, geopolitical terms and cultural terms. North America as a region/subcontinent is part of the single American continent, a valid and current term. AlexCovarrubias ( Let's talk! ) 15:53, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I live in Brazil. No geographical division here are thought on geography classes (beside a quick note on the history of america, maybe), people on the streets might still talk about the old way but the press, new books and quality materials all talk about latin america because it makes more sense to divide Ameria this way. I still think that the old geographical division are in use in Mexico only to force a detachment to the rest of the Latin America. But this is my POV. Alvaroludolf 17:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Redundant to North America. Merge any content not present in the latter.--Húsönd 15:57, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Edit break 1[edit]

Comment - There are lots of different ways of dividing America, each one is used for different purposes, the 3 most common ones are:

Linguistically:

Continentally:

Regionally:

All of the above have their own article, I don't see why the North American Region shouldn't have his own as well. Supaman89 02:15, 6 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment let me again point out that North America is the only thing you've listed as two separate things that have the same name.
Furthermore, let me point out that this discussion has gone on too long and the entire premise is silly. Feeeshboy 02:50, 6 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, South America is in fact listed twice as well. --theDúnadan 19:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And to my knowledge, there is only one article for South America. Feeeshboy 00:22, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]


  1. America (always)
  2. Canada (almost always)
  3. Bermuda (Rarely explicitly, but usually)
  4. St. Pierre and Mickey (As Bermuda)
  5. Greenland (As Bermuda)
  6. Mexico (less commonly, but still sometimes)
  7. Possibly other places with decreasing likelihood.
You simply can't avoid that you're trying to deal with a poorly defined subject, so your article has to reflect this. The only other option is to engage in a bunch of original research, which is right out. WilyD 16:13, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment:What you are forgetting is that this article is not about the "cultural" region of North America, but about the geographical region/subcontinent of North America. AlexCovarrubias ( Let's talk! ) 16:17, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that's plainly a problem, given that no such thing exists. WilyD 16:26, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Linguistically:

Continentally:

Regionally:

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Supaman89 (talk • contribs)

Merge, rename, redirect, disambiguate. Wow. I came across this just randomly checking AfDs. I had no idea there were [insert number here] different concepts of North America. Which, to me, means that an entire article should exist simply to disambiguate these. Perhaps North America (and not North America (disambiguation) itself should be such a disambig page. The lead would state that NA may refer to x under schema q, y under schema r, and z under schema s, and go on to briefly explain schemas q, r, and s. In any case, however, the title North America (Americas) makes absolutely no sense to me, an outsider. I'd never type that into a search box. OscarTheCat3 22:07, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment To 'disambiguate' the various regions/meanings, there is Americas (terminology). Corticopia 22:20, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Americas (terminology) is an article about the different concepts (geographic, cultural, geopolitical, linguistic) or terms used to divide and study the Americas. I agree with Oscar that we need an article specifically about North America. Also I see that a lot of people complain about the name of the article. Let me say that I chose this name based in Middle America (Americas), in order to preserve similar names for all the regions of the Americas. However, I could be changed, of course. AlexCovarrubias ( Let's talk! ) 22:30, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Note that Middle America (Americas) (the mid-region in the Americas) was chosen in preference to Middle America (region) since MA is also a region/constituency in the US Middle America (United States), but nothing is set in stone (compare with Australia, Australia (continent)). Corticopia 23:10, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, for me is a good article. --Battroid 01:26, 9 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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