The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Even after discounting the several apparently canvassed and/or plainly silly arguments, there is no consensus to delete this article.  Sandstein  19:19, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Partition of Albania[edit]

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Partition of Albania (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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The term "Partition of Albania" does not exist in the literature as used in this article. Though a literature search reveals that a partitioning of Albania was proposed several times [1], it never actually occurred, certainly not as described in this article. The article begins with the premise that "Albania" is any Ottoman territory inhabited by ethnic Albanians, and even some territories not inhabited by ethnic Albanians (e.g. Arta, Greece, or Nis, Serbia). As such, the article is in fact nothing more than a naive irredentist POV-fest about "lost ethnic Albanian lands" and is essentially a POV-fork of material included in Albania during the Balkan Wars. Athenean (talk) 22:58, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the article explains that: "The Partition of Albania (Albanian: Copëtimi i Shqipërisë) was a process of occupation, annexation and colonization of territories inhabited mostly by Albanians, and considered to be part of their nation, although under the Ottoman Empire during the First Partition in 1878-1881, and declared independent but not recognized, during the Second Partition in 1913."

The article didn't say as you claim that those "lands" were entirely inhabited by Albanians. The Albanians viewed some of those "lands" as historical part of their nation. The term "Partition of Albania" exists in the Albanian language, and it is viewed by them as a partition, thus it has to be translated into English as well. The term partition of Albania has been used in several Western books, although never as a separate topic from the League of Prizren or Balkan Wars for example. (Edvin (talk) 23:28, 31 January 2012 (UTC))[reply]

But "territories considered Albanian by Albanians" is not the same thing as Albania, do you understand? There was no Albania in 1878. Albania's borders were drawn for the first time in 1913, and have stayed the same ever since. It was never partitioned. I have no doubt that the term "Partition of Albania" exists in Albanian and is widely used, but that is not the case in English, and this is the English wikipedia. Athenean (talk) 23:33, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Check this for the term: 2, or this reference 3. And when we discuss the Partition of Africa, or Partition of Poland, we discuss there partition of lands which are not the same thing as Africa or Poland. For example, the article Partition of Poland, discusses that Polish territories were partitioned between Powers of that time, although Poland at that time was under the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Albania had "borders" even before 1913, there were the Albanian vilayets, and there was the Albanian state during 144-1479 which was independent and repelled the Ottoman armies.

Anyway, the opinion of just one person cannot determine if an article should be deleted or not. We need many more opinions for this article. (Edvin (talk) 23:39, 31 January 2012 (UTC))[reply]

The term "Partition of Poland" exists in English because there was a state named "Poland", with recognized borders, and this state was partitioned between 3 other countries. In the case of Albania, there was no state of Albania with internationally recognized borders until 1913. The state of Albania that was created in 1913 was never partitioned. Its borders are the same as they were in 1913. And no, those four vilayets are not the same thing as "Albania". Nor were they "Albanian" in any sense, they were multi-ethnic, as all Ottoman vilayets. If you can't understand that in English usage "Albania" means the current state of Albania (this Albania, not this one), and not the four vilayets, then I have nothing further to say to you. Athenean (talk) 23:58, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There was a state called Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. It was not specifically called "Poland". In this case you are saying that Poland is Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, but it is the same like saying that Ottoman Empire was Turkey, when in reality there were many more countries comprising it. Albania declared independence on 28 November 1912. And the independent Government headed by Ismail Qemali declared independence of this state (see map), although most of this territory was occupied by Serb, Montenegrin and Greek armies. In July 1913 the 6 powers decided to partition the independent state declared on 28 November 1913, and they drew a map according to their interests. What is here not to understand? For a year, this Albania was declared independent. In July 1913, it was partitioned. As i said to you before, Albania was independent also from 1444-1479 so we have an independent state even before, although at that time borders didn't have the same meaning they have today. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edvini (talk • contribs) 09:44, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You are saying that there was no Albania before 1913, but how can you explain that article History of Albania does not only include history from 1913, but it includes history from from the 4th century BC?--Olsi (talk) 00:18, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I totally agree with Edvini and I think that this article should not be deleted.--Olsi (talk) 00:29, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

To give you another analogy to the "Partition of Poland", and "Partition of Albania". In Wikipedia there is a very long article about Partition of India. And it is called Partition of India, although it started already when there was no India, but a British colony. And there was no Indian state before. It similar to the case of Partition of Albania, when Albania declared independence from Ottoman Empire, was occupied by its neighbors, and was partitioned a year later. Why Partition of India can be an accepted term even when there was no Indian state, but Partition of Albania cannot be accepted although you had an Albanian State from 28 Nov. 1912? And User: Athenean argues that a term which is used in a language about something which happened to that language, cannot be used in English just because someone doesn't like it. It is like saying that Africans are banned to say that they were partitioned and colonized, just because the English-speaking world saw it as "Bringing civilization to them"... Anyways, i brought tons of evidence even from Western, English-speaking world, where the Term Partition of Albania is used and recognized. (Edvin (talk) 10:33, 1 February 2012 (UTC))[reply]

• Delete. Partition of Albania is never used in the sources in reference to the post-1913 Albanian state, and there was no Albanian state before 1913, so it couldn't have been partitioned. Macedonian (talk) 05:52, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep I think that the deletion proposal is based on a misreading of the original article, which does not make the claim that Albania was a nation before 1913. The term has over 7,000 hits in google books, it is clearly an established term. Francis Bond (talk) 07:59, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not even 3.000...--WhiteWriter ^speaks 16:34, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Albania was a state during 1444-1479, and again on 28 November 1912. Albania declared independence on 28 November 1912. And the independent Government headed by Ismail Qemali declared independence of this state (see map), although most of this territory was occupied by Serb, Montenegrin and Greek armies. In July 1913 the 6 powers decided to partition the independent state declared on 28 November 1913, and they drew a map according to their interests.For a year, this Albania was declared independent. In July 1913, it was partitioned. The term Albanian State from 28 November 1912 and on can be found in various Western literature, like: 1, 2, 3, 4. It is not easy just to ignore facts and stick to points of views.(Edvin (talk) 09:57, 1 February 2012 (UTC))[reply]
• Keep--Olsi (talk) 11:50, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep: The article is about two partitions: the 1878 and the 1913 one, not only the 1913 partition, which is linked, but is a different concept from the one detailed in the Albania during the Balkan Wars article. As other users pointed it out, there is large evidence of the existance of the concept in literature, mainly political one. If the nominator fails to evidence that the concept of the partition of Albania is inexistant, then the article should stay in the English Wikipedia, but as Francis Bond, pointed out earlier, with 7,000 hits in google books, it is clearly an established term. It is already used in the Albanian Wikipedia, and I believe it enriches the English Wikipedia. I added some references and there are many more that can be used. I also removed the "POV" tag, because that should be used when there is something in the talk page of the article, but the nominator, unfortunately did not use the talk page at all. I feel this is a lazy nomination: the nominator should have first done some due diligence. The nominator also labels the article naive irredentist POV-fest, withouth giving any explanation, which is disappointing. T'bojnomin (talk) 11:51, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sock alert: This account was created today [2], for the sole purpose of participating in the AfD and editing the nominated article. Almost certainly a sock, most likely User:Sulmues (judging by the tone and considering he is the most prolific Albanian sockppuppeteer). Athenean (talk) 19:21, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sulmues has his own account and it is not blocked, why he would create a new one just to vote here?--Olsi (talk) 20:01, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• SpeedyDelete - Although I agree with nominator's rationale I think he should nominate this article for Speedy Deletion under G3 - Pure vandalism and blatant hoaxes because it is based on the blatant and obvious misinformation, blatant hoaxes. That is obvious starting from the first sentence of the article which defines Albania as: territories inhabited mostly by Albanians, and considered to be part of their nation that this article is "irredentist POV-fest" and blatant POVFORK and HOAX (Wikipedia:Do not create hoaxes) because it is "an attempt to trick an audience into believing that something false is real" and Instead of resolving that disagreement by consensus, another version of the article (or another article on the same subject) is created to be developed according to a particular point of view.-(WP:POVFORK). Albania is not equal to Greater Albania or Albanian vilayet or "territories considered to be part of Albanian nation". This article is based on fabrication of Blood and soil ideology, not on wikipedia policies and should be speedy deleted.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:05, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment:In the meantime there was significant effort to clarify the topic of this article. Creator of this article clarified that The main point of the article is the Partition of ALbania, relating to the Albania which was declared independent on 28 November 1912.. That is certainly notable topic and only if ther is a consensus for that topic to remain the topic of this article, I change my opinion to Keep/Merge (i.e. with Independent Albania). Otherwise, if someone resurrect the partition of territories inhabited mostly by Albanians, and considered to be part of their nation (like Niš, Leskovac,...) as topic of this article, my opinion would remain like now.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:24, 2 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete: Complete original research by using non existent terms (1st & 2nd Partition of Albania [[3]] [[4]]), written to promote an ultranationalistic pov (...'Albanian inhabited lands' that were unjustly occupied by other countries is mentioned on every paragraph).Alexikoua (talk) 14:01, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete This term is artificially fabricated on wiki, without any relevant source. Nationalistic pov, unbearable... --WhiteWriter ^speaks 14:08, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep: This is an article that Wikipedia really needs. The only argument for deleting this article is that this is a vandalization of Wikipedia and the content is fabricated. Read the history, or at least keep in mind articles that you write. So by deleting this article you protect the ide that Congress of Berlin and Treaty of London are false and fabricated, isn't it Antidiskriminator. It goes without saying that this article needs improvement but nohow deleting. -  Euriditi  16:51, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep: Why do hide this part of Albanian history? The only people who want do delete this article are paranoiac anti-albanian slavs and greeks who have doubt in their identity and nationality. --Tëfcí (talk) 18:31, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Wow, this account was created today for the sole purpose of participating at this Afd [5]. Doubtless due to canvassing by Edvini [6]. Athenean (talk) 19:24, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Very poor argument, I changed my username from Tfts to Tëfci and as Tfts I contributed since september 2010 in the English Wikipedia. --Tëfcí (talk) 20:28, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ah well, I guess you found out about this discussion by sheer coincidence. Athenean (talk) 20:32, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Never said. --Tëfcí (talk) 12:53, 2 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Albania-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:23, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong Keep This is a very important event in Albanian history and must be documented here, just like it is by 7470 sources according to Google.books ([7]). The article needs a lot more citation though, but that is no reason to delete such an important article.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 18:35, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

:Comment: Obviously almost all of the gbooks hits cover a completely irrelevant time period that of wwii 1939-1946 and wwi 1914-1918, so what this article tries to cover isn't related with the described events.Alexikoua (talk) 18:55, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Check the sources cited in the article. Those covering the period of WWII and WWI are not relevant to this article and to the definition "Partition of Albania", I found at least 20 gbooks covering this important moment of Albanian history. Though, i checked only Western, English sources, leaving aside Albanian, Serb, or Greek sources which might be biased. (Edvin (talk) 19:10, 1 February 2012 (UTC))[reply]

I get almost 1,400 when I include "Balkan Wars" in the search. [8]--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 19:26, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep I didn't check the references. Assuming that there is no problem with the sources, I think the article is properly sourced. It is also notable enough Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 19:14, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete as a WP:POVFORK of Greater Albania, History of Albania, Albanian National Awakening, and Albanian nationalism. If some objective and relevant info is not in any of these articles yet, just add it. -- P 1 9 9 • TALK 18:03, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Canvassing Alert: The large number of Keep votes by users active on the Albanian wikipedia (Euridit, Olsi, Tefci) is due to disruptive canvassing by Edvini: [9] Athenean (talk) 19:21, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Additional canvassing[edit]

There is also this [[10]] by another user.Alexikoua (talk) 19:31, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds more than a nationalistic manifesto, in order to find support by his co-ethnics.Alexikoua (talk) 19:28, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Some of it may be, but there is also an AfD section on the Wikiproject Albania page if you've never noticed. Also, there are users not affiliated with Albanian wiki or WPAL that voted "Keep." Besides, most (or all) of the votes for "Delete" are from known Greeks and Serbs which is completely fine if done innocently, but it also arouses some suspicion.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 19:36, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Whereas most of the "keep" votes are from Albanian users, some of which created an account on en-wiki specifically to vote here, one of whom is a sock of a known troublemaker (Sulmues). Not innocent at all, and past suspicion, as we have proof. Athenean (talk) 19:42, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(As two non-Albanian editors vote for a keep). Anyway, I never denied that what they did is wrong so I don't really understand the point of your comment.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 22:21, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep What am I missing here? The article is well sourced, with a number of reliable sources made available. The article itself may need cleanup to be written in a more neutral POV, but I don't see how this is a hoax, or something made up, seeing as jsut doing a Google search of the phrase "Partition of Albania" has a number of hits to historical works on the subject. Wildthing61476 (talk) 19:25, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep This google scholar search turns up tons of stuff, dating back decades. I can see sources on the first page which indicate coverage of this subject directly, in detal, dating back to the 1930s and 1940s. Clearly a real historical event, clearly notable. WP:BEFORE would have been nice. --Jayron32 20:07, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I did search beforehand, and if you look closely at the results of the scholar search 1) many are false hits, 2) even those that aren't refer to a proposed partition, not a partition that actually occurred, as the article is currently written and 3) they mostly refer to the WWII era, not the 1878-1913 era. Athenean (talk) 20:15, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep, per Owen Pearson, [11]. Majuru (talk) 20:18, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep: This is an article that Wikipedia really needs. Irvi Hyka (talk) 13:41, 2 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep: Wikipedia is free! Don't forget the right to speak!!!!--Papa-Zhuli (talk) 16:34, 2 February 2012 (UTC).[reply]

• Keep/merge Proposals to partition Albania are notable, being documented in detail in sources such as Albania: from anarchy to a Balkan identity and Albania in the twentieth century: a history, e.g. "Nicolson stated that he and Allen Leeper, his immediate colleague in the British delegation's section charged with central and south-eastern Europe, suggested a scheme to partition Albania which enlarged on that devised in the former...". The rest is a matter of ordinary editing, not deletion. Warden (talk) 11:03, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.