The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus to delete. This is after discounting all the ILKIEIT, OTHERCRAPEXISTS, and similar arguments made by the SoB supporters. Wading through all the SoBs' comments was great fun. (^_^) ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 23:12, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note: As there were a number of editors suggesting merging, I recommend taking that discussion to the appropriate talk page. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 23:13, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sons of Ben (MLS fan club)[edit]

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Sons of Ben (MLS fan club) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Request for deletion as subject lacks WP:NOT Mikerichi (talk) 08:20, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of football (soccer) related deletions. ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:25, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Not only not notable, but also totally lame. Linking to user pages from the article just shows what a joke it is. пﮟოьεԻ 57 09:33, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - (after ec with User:Number 57) doesn't indicate any real notability. As an aside, it appears that there is a conflict of interest here, as all three founders have edited the article, as Bryanjames76, Dill0n and User:OKTerrific, with the latter two actually linked from the article text. Dreaded Walrus ^{t c} 09:45, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete, fancruft; a fan club for a team that doesn't even exist yet. Sheesh. - Realkyhick (Talk to me) 10:12, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete I can't find this group mentioned in any of the other MLS pages on Wikipedia, and this page appears to have been created in Jan 2007 and the "fan club" says they were also created in Jan 2007, making this an obvious vanity page. In retrospect this should have been a request for speedy deletion. Mikerichi (talk) 12:34, 1 February 2008 (UTC) — Mikerichi (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
• Merge into Philadelphia Major League Soccer team. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 16:11, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete non notable group for a still non-existing team. --Angelo (talk) 16:22, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge into Philadelphia Major League Soccer team. While they are a bit too ladies tea for my liking they are a very notable group of over 1000 members with tons of Local and National press and television coverage. Google news search Sons of Ben to get more information --ChrissMari (talk) 17:08, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Speedy keep All over Google News, Philadelphia just got a soccer stadium, www.sonsofben.com, this is a constant Wikipedia problem, the Internet stuff is given too much preference, not everything is all over the Internet (although this is, just not on pages Wikipedia editors are likely to look at) but is still notable. It would be a travesty to lose this page. It does need to be re-written to avoid linking to Wikipedia user pages and other frivolous nonsense. Whitey Cracker (talk) 18:00, 1 February 2008 (UTC) — Whitey Cracker (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

There are exactly 6 hits in Google news for this "Sons of Ben" (as opposed to the literary society) for all of 2007, all in local Philadelphia papers. 6 hits on Google News from local newspapers != "all over Google news." Considering this page was created by club members who are also Wikipedia editors 5 days after they started their club, how can you say this information "is not available to Wikipedia editors?" Mikerichi (talk) 22:41, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep The Sons of Ben are analogous to other MLS supporters' clubs such as La Barra Brava, the Screaming Eagles, the Texian Army, and the Empire Supporters Club. Not only have they received American press coverage, but coverage in FourFourTwo as well. Merging Sons of Ben with a Philadelphia team page is a short-term solution because information on the SoBs will overwhelm team news and a new page will get created anyway. Delmlsfan (talk) 22:06, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

*Delete fan teams are NN. Peanut4 (talk) 23:26, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge into supporter section of Philadelphia Major League Soccer team. And similarly with Screaming Eagles, La Barra Brava, Texian Army, and Section 8 Chicago. Peanut4 (talk) 02:27, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • This has become a European vs American distinction. If supporters' clubs from the USA want to have their own pages, then they should keep them. Is there a Law #18 that prohibits this? Delmlsfan (talk) 03:05, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's not a distinction of whether a supporter's club is American or European (or Asian, or South American, e.t.c.), but the notability of such a club/group. And we don't just allow whoever wants a page to have a page - again we have inclusion criterion. The same applies to similar arguments made below much less politely. Dreaded Walrus ^{t c} 04:43, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• STRONG KEEP I read in Philadelphia Weekly that Wikipedia wants to delete Sons of Ben's page and this is an outrage. There are pages for crap like Goatse and bestiality but these soccer fans can't have their own page? It would be a travesty to lose this page, and as Delmlsfan says, once they get a team Sons of Ben will be a bigger story than the team itself! 68.81.181.116 (talk) 01:36, 2 February 2008 (UTC) — 68.81.181.116 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
  • You're taking the piss right? Some journalists give the rest of us a bad name. Talk about a slow news day. Peanut4 (talk) 01:40, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • No, here is the news story here. http://willdo.philadelphiaweekly.com/archives/2008/02/beloved_soccer.html Why can't these Wikipedia edoitors find something more constructive to do than bother a vibrant supporters group? 68.81.181.116 (talk) 09:38, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Big Keeper Let's not be silly. Yes they do not YET have a team, but it is definitely a real supports group, just like any other as can be seen by their huge presence at other MLS team games. There are ridiculous things found on Wikipedia. And it is just absurd to not allow a real organization to have their own page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tbeliever1 (talk • contribs) 02:17, 2 February 2008 (UTC) — Tbeliever1 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
• KEEP Why do you even want to delete a legit group just becuase you do not like it. Can't you just not look at the page? Wikipedia is to inform people and anyone who may want to look up who the Sons of Ben are, or find any info on them won't be able to if you delete. Why don't you get a life or get a real hobby like the people in the Sons of Ben do, and stop surfing wikipedia and trying to piss people off for no reason. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Carbacher19038 (talk • contribs) — Carbacher19038 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Delete Non-notable fan group. On a side note, for those advocating a merge to the Philly MLS team article.. It should be noted that there is no Philly MLS team at this point in time. MLS has not officially chosen Philly as it's next expansion team. The article seems to have been created in response to Pennsylvania approving funding to build a stadium complex in Chesterfield.[1] While this does improve the chances of Philly getting an MLS team, it does not mean that MLS will actually do so. Just ask Tampa Bay how quickly the "If you build it, they will come" theory worked. The Philly MLS team article should probably be nominated for deletion as WP:CRYSTAL. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 07:20, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I've gone ahead and created an AFD for Philly MLS team.--Bobblehead ^(rants) 08:05, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong keep As stated before, the Philly and national media have widely covered the Sons of Ben, therefore deniability is not an excuse for deletion. Another point, the Sons of Ben fan club is much more notable than the alleged literary group of the same name.JaMikePA (talk) 15:50, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment As stated before, despite false claims to the contrary, Google News has only 6 hits, all Philadelphia news sources, for the "Sons of Ben" MLS club in 2007. That does not meet WP:NOT by any stretch of the imagination. More importantly, your Weasel_words denigrating the Sons of Ben literary society do not bolster the notability of the Sons of Ben MLS club. A society studying a very well known English author is "alleged", while a society for a non-existent football club is real? Only in America... Mikerichi (talk) 20:59, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Response Your POV is showing with that last comment. The Sons of Ben page was created over a year before you flagged it for deletion. If the article is as non-notable as you claim, wouldn't it have been flagged earlier - perhaps by US soccer fans who would have been on the lookout for it? I don't personally find organizations like IMUSA and Manchester United Supporters' Trust of interest, but would not dare flag them for deletion. Again, to be consistent with this request for deletion, flag the other MLS supporters' clubs pages for deletion as well. Delmlsfan (talk) 21:52, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Use of Google News? Use of Google News is invalid for determining notability of US soccer organizations. The sport is poorly covered in press media. Compare the hits for the DC United supporters group the Screaming Eagles over the same time frame. I found 7. The Sons of Ben must be extremely notable if they garnished 6. Delmlsfan (talk) 22:17, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - seen this group mentioned a few times in the UK print media, e.g. FourFourTwo ran a multi-page feature on them in the last year or so. Their cause is pretty well known in world football coverage. Da-rb (talk) 21:37, 3 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Keep - I was surprised to see this deletion request blurbed in Philadelphia Weekly, as mentioned above. This is a well known group among MLS fans and U.S. soccer fans in general, and as Da-rb mentioned above, has been featured several times in the U.K. print media. It is possible the page was created as a vanity page, but the group has grown to a size and significance at which it can sustain the page. Rolando (talk) 22:13, 3 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• What Now? - It has been five days. It has been established that the Sons of Ben have received the same level of press coverage (based on Google News) as other MLS supporters clubs. There have been several "keep" comments made by individuals who had no connection to the website. And, to be fair, the page has been cleaned up to Wikipedia standards. Let's remove the deletion tag now. Delmlsfan (talk) 02:57, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• WP:OTHERCRAP. Peanut4 (talk) 03:22, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. Looks like the page has been improved upon since the start of the AfD. Links to user pages are gone, notability is established. SoB is not merely a fan club but an advocacy group for a future MLS team in Philadelphia (my Delete vote for that article was based on WP:CRYSTAL; no such concerns exist for a group that already exists). They have received significant coverage in and out of the American soccer community, so there should be no WP:N issues. I don't see the big deal here. --Roehl Sybing (talk) 15:34, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Was gonna go for Delete, but seeing the media attention I think we should give the article a chance. BanRay 07:58, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment I see no evidence of notability established. The same "keep" advocates are claiming "They are mentioned all over Google News" despite only 6 mentions on Google News in 2007, while simultaneously claiming that "Google News is not a valid reference." They can't have it both ways. The only news mentions I've seen of this group are a handful of mentions in the Philadelphia media and one article in the Guardian written by Steven Wells of the Philadelphia Weekly. Additionally, the "keep" advocates seem to think this is a vote, which it of course is not, it is a discussion. The most obvious evidence of this being a vanity page that the "keep" advocates are ignoring is that this page was created 5 days after the group was founded. Finally, note that a "keep" advocate accused me of being a "sock puppet" for this delete vote being my first contribution when the first four "keep" advocates were also making their first contribution. I only see one or two "keep" advocates who have more than a handful of contributions that are not from the Philadelphia area. Mikerichi (talk) 09:32, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment I can't see how SoB have any notability other than as a group affiliated (even if not officially) to the Phillies proposed MLS team. Therefore they deserve a mention but not an individual entry. Simply have as a separate supporters section for the Phillies MLS team. Peanut4 (talk) 09:53, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep. By your logic, Screaming Eagles, La Barra Brava, Texian Army, and Section 8 Chicago should be deleted and/or merged too. I think this could end up being ruled Keep due to lack of consensus. Tom Danson (talk) 19:38, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • [2] That does appear to be his position, yes. :) Dreaded Walrus ^{t c} 19:43, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment and still merge. I can't deny that supporters deserve a mention because they are an important part of any football team, but note the word part. They have no notability on their own. Plus see other WP:OTHERCRAP. Each of those listed should be added to a supporters section on the relevant team page. They have absolutely no reason to have their won separate entry and I've been entirely unconvinced of any other argument. Peanut4 (talk) 22:02, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Comment Again, if this is your argument, suggest on WikiProject Football that all MLS supporters' clubs be merged. I suspect your proposal will be roundly dismissed. Delmlsfan (talk) 00:53, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • Comment I think most, if not all, should be merged, yes. If you look at Category:Major League Soccer fan clubs the total of 17 clubs have a sum total of one reference. There are plenty of tags also on there. A couple of them may have their own notability, but most seem to be vain, unnotable entries independent of the football club itself and ought to go in a supporters section, as 99% of football articles have. If they are expanded enough and certainly if they earn their own notability then perhaps have a separate article.
          • But above all the argument to come here as a reference doesn't hold. Simply set the pages up as a redirect to the aforementioned supporters section. And since their notability is key to the actual, it puts the supporters club in far better context, with more info and a much more relevant page. I'm far from saying delete these entries as NN. Just that their notability and breadth of coverage rarely is deserving of an individual page. One is even tagged as an orphaned article. Now what's the point in that? Peanut4 (talk) 14:36, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • Hurry up. Another Toronto page was added yesterday. Delmlsfan (talk) 03:46, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Whoooooooooooooomp there it is. Whitey Cracker (talk) 17:33, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

KEEP! Why are we even having this discussion? I heard about SoB in an article, and Wikipedia was the first place I turned to find out more. Shall I stop thinking of Wikipedia as an information source? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 15.227.137.71 (talk) 18:02, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

KEEP. The Sons of Ben have done a lot to show that Philadelphia is ready and waiting for an MLS frabchise. What other city would do this. Just because the city doesn't have a team doesn't mean it can't have a supporters club. Once it does, it will already have a solid fanbase. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.250.184.246 (talk) 17:37, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge into Philadelphia Major League Soccer team (I understand that that article is also subject to an afd, but I have voted to keep it). The fact that a fan club has been established (and there has been media coverage of that fact) is one of the things which makes the movement for a Philadephia MLS club notable; I do not believe the subject to be notable enough in its own right to merit an article, BUT I do believe that a fan club for a team which does not yet exist is interesting enough to confer notability on the article about the potential team (given that it has attracted media attention and therefore is the subject of secondary sources). Robotforaday (talk) 21:23, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.