- I don't think one can properly distinguish the motives for mating in animals. They mate because they feel the urge to, without realizing why. That they get pleasure from it does not mean its purpose is not reproduction. Rather, animals (and humans too) derive pleasure from sex precisely because sex leads to reproduction. Animals having the urge to mate even when there are no fertile opposite-sex partners available takes nothing away from the fact that the urges they feel have the purpose of reproducing. -Lindert (talk) 23:28, 21 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Have you ever heard of homosexuality, Lindert? Or are those people not quite the same as humans? -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ [your turn] 06:00, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I do make a distinction between humans and animals. Animals don't know why they do something, while humans do. In animals, homosexuality is usually the result of either the unavailability of suitable/willing opposite sex partners, or the inability to distinguish between the sexes. Apart from these reasons however, some humans seem to be sexually attracted exclusively to the same sex. Thus they have a distorted sexuality, and satisfy their urges in a manner not intended by nature. This used to be viewed simply as a psychological disorder, same as e.g. necrophilia, but is now, due to political correctness and the homosexual lobby increasingly considered normal. - Lindert (talk) 07:20, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh dear. I think we should challenge that view. Since this is the science desk, can you point to mainstream scientific evidence that homosexuality is distorted, abnormal, or a psychological disorder ? Gandalf61 (talk) 08:39, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The problem with the word abnormal e.g. is that it is very subjective, and can even imply a value judgement, thus falling outside the realm of science. Homosexuality was removed from the APA's list of mental disorders in 1973, shortly after the emergence of widespread gay activism. This was viewed by many as a political decision, rather that a scientific one. In Mental Health Policy and Practice Today (1997) Watkins and Callicut write: "many laypersons were horrified to see that the decisions about the psychopathology or normality of homosexuality were so blatantly political, determined by a mere vote of psychiatrists. What they apparently did not realize was that both the classification and the diagnosis of all mental disorders are higly political" ([3]). Still, even recent studies link homosexuality to childhood trauma (see e.g. [4]). Several studies have also shown that homosexual behavior reduces life expectancy by over 10 years (more than smoking). Something that often results from trauma (usually sexual abuse) and causes unhealthy behavior is clearly a disorder, it's just politically incorrect to say it out loud. By the way, if science is restricted only to the mainstream, there would be no room for critical thinking, and that's simply deadly for science itself. In summary, calling it a disorder or not is merely a matter of politics, not science. - Lindert (talk) 11:06, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Your claim that homosexuality "often results from trauma (usually sexual abuse)" is simply not supported by the study that you cite [5]. That study did find a small correlation between sexual orientation that was not exlusively heterosexual and "adverse events" in childhood - but of the 29 types of adverse events covered by the study, only 2 were sexual in nature; the remainder included events such as a life-threatening illnes, a major natual disaster, death of someone close etc. And out of the 358 study subjects that experienced three or more adverse events in their childhood, over 80% were exclusively heterosexual in their sexual orientation. It would be interesting to see whether you have similarly misinterpreted the other unidentified studies that you mention. Gandalf61 (talk) 12:28, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- It was only one of many studies that support a similar correlation, this was just the first I could find. Maybe a better example is this study, which finds that 46% of male homosexuals experienced homosexual molestation as a child, as opposed to 7% of heterosexual males, for females the numbers are 22% and 1% respectively. Regardless, whatever the cause, my point remains that its mostly politics that determines what is a disorder. - Lindert (talk) 12:36, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- And yet, you seem quite relaxed about using that politically-determined label of "disorder" to support your assertion that homosexuals "have a distorted sexuality, and satisfy their urges in a manner not intended by nature". Is it the case that either (a) politics now determines what is or is not "intended by nature", or (b) our views on this subject, or anything at all, should always be subject to the filter of political correctness? Who makes the politics of these things in the first place, and where do their views come from? -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ [your turn] 12:55, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Mostly the social views on things like homosexuality come from a particular world view. Of course my opinions on a subject influence how I speak about it. I'm biased as is everyone else. However, I classify it as a disorder primarily for consistency's sake. Because fundamentally, I see no difference between e.g. homosexuality and zoophilia, necrophilia, pedophilia etc., so it would be inconsistent to classify some as disorders and not others. Also, what behaviors are 'intended by nature' are quite self-evident. One does not need to be a doctor to figure out that the anus is not meant for sexual intercourse. For example, the vagina is naturally lubricated, while the anus is not. Homosexual activity results in many STDs, infections and other medical issues. - Lindert (talk) 13:15, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Lindert, what on earth do you mean by "intended by nature"? Not just with reference to homosexuality, but anything? Nature has no intention. Egg Centric 13:31, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, any idiot can distinguish between homosexuality, zoophilia, necrophilia and pedophilia. Having sex with people of the same sex as you is obviously not the same thing as having sex with a dead body, and having sex with a child is obviously not the same thing as having sex with a sheep. The fact that you use the different names we have for these practices means you recognise these differences. So, in what possible sense is there "no difference" between them? Also, natural childbirth is a process that can take up to 48 hours, involving immense pain to the mother and usually surgical intervention and a number of days recovery in a hospital. I've never heard of anyone who voluntarily engaged in anal intercourse having anything remotely like that experience - they usually report it's intensely pleasurable and want more of it as soon as possible. The fact that external lubricant is required is no more "unnatural" than the painkillers given to women in labour. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ [your turn] 22:34, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- You completely missed my point. If you read carefully, you'd have noticed that I said that fundamentally I see no difference, not that they are entirely the same. It is equivalent to saying that fundamentally, black people are no different from white people. Don't just take part of a sentence and ignore the rest. The sense in which they are the same is that all are deviations from the usual practice. All involve negative health effects to the individual(s) engaging in it. In short, to me it seems inconsistent that some are viewed by Western society as abnormal and others as normal.
- Also, you're grossly exaggerating natural childbirth, which is very common in most countries and does not usually involve 'immense pain' and rarely surgical intervention or recovery in a hospital. Natural births taking more than a few hours are rare. There's excellent medical care in the Netherlands, where I live, and still 30% of women choose to give birth at home. Only 10% of women here use painkillers during childbirth. - Lindert (talk) 11:55, 23 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- You do know that correlation does not imply causation, right? Your study could suggest that child abuse leads to homosexuality, but it could equally well suggest that homosexuality leads to child abuse. If you were that child's parent, for example, I can see plenty of reasons why homosexuality would lead to child abuse--because you'd view your child as deviant and be intolerant of him/her.
- Even if we assume that child abuse does lead to homosexuality, I don't agree that this means homosexuality is a disorder. It means that we should provide love and understanding to the child for his/her miserable past, which is the opposite of what you'd probably provide. It does not automatically imply that homosexuality is harmful to either the patient or society at large, which is the most basic criterion I'd use for a "disorder". --140.180.5.169 (talk) 20:36, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I fully agree. even if there is a causal connection that does not automatically make it a disorder. And you are absolutely right about the most basic criterion. Studies have shown that practicing homosexuals have a reduced life expectancy by about 8-20 years (link) and experience significantly more mental disorders (link). Of course it is well known that STDs are much more prevalent amongst homosexuals, and it is obvious that STDs negatively effect the quality of life. Of course one needs to be careful with correlations, but still, it would seem there is reason enough to view it as a disorder. - Lindert (talk) 21:57, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The second study implies nothing about the direction of the causation, because it is easy to see why a marginalized minority would be at greater risk of mental illness, especially substance abuse and depression. In fact, the authors themselves make this point. I believe the first study is accurate, and does suggest that homosexual sex is much riskier, for the reasons you suggested. However, the study is outdated. The authors themselves revisited the issue here: http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/30/6/1499.full.pdf+html and found that "In contrast, if we were to repeat this analysis today the life expectancy of gay and bisexual men would be greatly improved. Deaths from HIV infection have declined dramatically in this population since 1996. As we have previously reported there has been a threefold decrease in mortality in Vancouver as well as in other parts of British Columbia."
- Note that in my post, I listed only what I considered the most basic criterion, not the full criteria. This is because I'm uninterested in the semantic debate over what counts as a "disorder". I note, however, that you seem to be using a definition that's much too broad. If your only criterion for a disorder is that it negatively affects quality of life, then being a woman, an urban resident, single, or unemployed all count as disorders, because according to the mental disorders study you linked to, "psychiatric epidemiological studies among the general population in industrialized countries on three continents have repeatedly shown increased morbidity" in those populations.
- Finally, you seem to be using the wrong metric to measure the cost of homosexual sex. The cost is not the risk relative to heterosexuals, because there is no known way of turning a homosexual into a heterosexual. Rather, the correct opportunity cost is the cost, for a homosexual, of not engaging in sex. This excludes the possibility of many types of personal satisfaction and relationship building. Whether the risk of STDs and decreased lifespan is worth the opportunity cost of a loveless (or at least sexless) life is a value judgement that every person must make for themselves. I personally think the risk is worth it, just as I think the convenience and opportunities of living in a city outweigh the costs of increased air pollution, more carcinogens, overcrowding, increased crime, etc. The guy down the street might completely disagree, and there's no problem with that. --140.180.5.169 (talk) 03:50, 23 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Being a woman, urban resident, single or unemployed are different categories that do not fulfill the APA's criterion of being a "behavioral or psychological syndrome or pattern that occurs in an individual", while homosexual activity can surely be described as a behavioral pattern. It's likely true that life expectancy has increased due to advances in medical treatment. I never brought up the issue of opportunity cost (though you do have a point there), I merely pointed out there are negative health effects, which you apparently agree with. - Lindert (talk) 07:00, 23 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I mean just the obvious with 'intended by nature'. For example, one could ask the question "Why do some snakes have venomous teeth?". I would answer: "In order to kill their prey". If I take your approach I would have to say: "There is no answer, nature has no purpose, it just is". - Lindert (talk) 13:41, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- That's a ridiculous view. Why doesn't nature give the snake sub machine guns instead? Egg Centric 14:00, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Agreed. In mainstream science, nature indeed has no purpose, and teleological explanations are avoided. I think we may be heading into the realms of intelligent design here. Gandalf61 (talk) 14:13, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Teleological explanations are not avoided, because they cannot be avoided. One cannot study biology without studying the function (= purpose) of biological structures. As an example, see this article in Science magazine about the function of the narwhal's tusk. It states researchers have long been fascinated with this mysterious structure, precisely because it was unknown what purpose it served. - Lindert (talk) 14:28, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- There's lots of reasons. For instance, ammunition would be hard to come by. To obtain enough metal, snakes would have to dig mines, which is hard without arms. - Lindert (talk) 14:29, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- "Function" is definitely not the same as "purpose" ! "Function" addresses the question "what does this do ?", which is a legitimate scientific question. "Purpose" addresses the question "why does this exist ?", which is not a legitimate scientific questions, because "purpose" assumes a guiding intelligence. Lindert, your ideas are very strange, and some of the views you have stated above are really quite offensive. Gandalf61 (talk) 14:45, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't really care if my views are 'strange', and of course you have the right to be offended, but luckily, Wikipedia is not yet censored. In a teleological sense, the question "why does this exist?" is really equivalent to "what does this do?". The terms 'function' and 'purpose' are often used interchangeably, also in biology. For example, this article, titled Long noncoding RNAs: the search for function starts of by saying that researchers found "a steady stream of transcribed regions with no apparent purpose.". In this context, purpose and function are simply synonyms. - Lindert (talk) 15:03, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Agreed that Wikipedia is not censored, however most editors here choose to stay within the grounds of common decency and politeness, and do not go out of their way to cause gratuitous offence. You are clearly an unfortunate exception who wishes to use Wikipedia as a soapbox to promote your extreme, illogical and out-dated opinions. I am done here. Gandalf61 (talk) 15:25, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't see how I have been impolite. I have said nothing at all about any editor, but merely expressed my personal opinions and arguments. If that's being indecent then so be it. I have not called anyones views 'extreme, illogical and out-dated' (no offense taken tough). - Lindert (talk) 15:34, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- You are saying that homosexuality is deviant because humans are not using their body parts for what they are intended for. This position only makes sense at all if you do believe them to have a higher, specified purpose. Otherwise you might as well argue using glasses is deviant because ears aren't to rest specs on, driving is deviant because feet aren't meant to operate brake pedals, etc etc. Egg Centric 15:53, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- First of all, I do believe there is a higher purpose in nature (but please let's not start a discussion on that). Secondly, I don't think the examples you give are really parallel. Besides body parts, we also have a brain for a reason. One of the functions of the brain is to devise and make use of tools. We are indeed by nature dependent on tools. Without tools (and clothes), no human population on earth would be able to survive very long. In contrast, as I mentioned above, homosexual behavior is generally detrimental to peoples health. A closer parallel would be for example listening to very loud music. Doing this is detrimental to ones hearing, because human ears are not able to withstand such sound levels for prolonged periods. Thus, it could be said that this is a 'deviant' or 'unnatural' use of the ears, because ears are not designed/suited for this. - Lindert (talk) 18:37, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- If you do believe there's a higher purpose in nature, and you base your opinions on that, your views are not scientific and have no place on the science desk. Since they're obviously hateful and intolerant, I would even say they have no place in the human world, but let's not get into that. If you really believe nature has any purpose, you are either a superstitious crackpot or ignorant about how evolution works. One of the basic aspects of evolution that all high school biology students know (or at least should know) is that it has absolutely no purpose. It is not true that a cat's children will be more human-like than the parent, or even that they'll be better cats. Mutation is a random process, and even though positive mutations are more often kept, the E. coli long-term evolution experiment show that neutral mutations often have a large impact on the population's genetic future. Even detrimental mutations are sometimes kept if a physical barrier causes a founder effect and makes the mutation dominant within the population. If you believe that it's purposeful for a UV photon to hit a piece of DNA at precisely the right angle to cause a certain mutation, be my guest, but that's a crackpot view which few others would accept. --140.180.5.169 (talk) 20:36, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- if you don't believe in a higher purpose, how can you decide whether veiws have a place in the human world?
- Do you believe you are using a mouth incorrectly if you eat so much it makes you fat? What about if you use it to spout bigotry? Sorry to tell you this, but if there is any purpose in nature, it's obvious to the rest of us that you've got it soooo wrong with whatever silly, presumably abrahamic god-type thing you believe. Prick. Egg Centric 21:10, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Please read Wikipedia's policy of no personal attacks. It's fine to disagree, even passionately, just don't make it personal please. thank you - Lindert (talk) 22:07, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- "homosexual behavior is generally detrimental to peoples health" Say what now? Also, one of the functions of genitalia is to provide sexual gratification. Homosexual sex is not deviant even by your definition. thx1138 (talk) 22:18, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- lets put it this way. evolution should in the long run cause homosexuality to die out. therefore from an evelutionary perspective it is deviant from the norm of the species.
- "Say what now?" So can you tell me in what way that comment was a personal attack or hateful? If I had said "smoking is generally detrimental to peoples health", would that be hateful? It is simply a statement of fact, that is backed up btw by numerous scientific studies. And yes, sexual gratification is a function of the genitalia; so does that mean necrophilia is not deviant? - Lindert (talk) 22:26, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I didn't accuse you of being hateful or making a personal attack. I'm accusing you of making a false statement, with no supporting citation. Unlike smoking, homosexual behavior is not generally detrimental to people's health.thx1138 (talk) 22:30, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I apologize, I misunderstood you. I provided references for my claim in the comment above in response to 140.180.5.169. I'll quote it here: "Studies have shown that practicing homosexuals have a reduced life expectancy by about 8-20 years (link) and experience significantly more mental disorders (link)". If you like, I could cite similar studies to the same effect. - Lindert (talk) 22:57, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- That study does not support your statement. Also, it is only of gay men, not women. thx1138 (talk) 23:16, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- You are right that the study only considers gay men. There is much more data available on men, as social and medical research more often investigates men. The studies do however show a correlation between life expectancy, mental disorders and homosexuality. If that is not clear enough, what about this one. This study finds that homosexual men have about 60% higher cancer rates compared to the general population. - Lindert (talk) 23:25, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Screw you, deviant. You deserve to be personally attacked. People are too tolerant of opinoins like that. You are personally attacking some of the contributors to this thread (not including me incidentally), and also offending all right thinking people (probably not including me either) and everyone else who hates bigotry (woohoo, I get to join in). You are pushing pseudoscience to the detriment of all mankind. If I'm doing anything wrong by saying so then eventually wikipedia needs to change the rules. Do you think that someone here who kept advocating slavery as natural and what nature intended would stay on the reference desk 5 minutes? There's much more evidence (in a sense that 0 > 0) for slavery being nature's intention than there is for pure heterosexuality. Egg Centric 22:47, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Cool it, Egg Centric. People are actually permitted to have opinions that are different from yours. There's no justification for that personal attack; our rules prohibit personal attacks, no matter what the (perceived) provocation may be. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ [your turn] 23:28, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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