A summary of the debate may be found at the bottom of the page.
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Ongoing NPOV issues by User_talk:Offender9000 at Department of Corrections (New Zealand) and related articles.
The issue has been discussed at the on the talk page, several times on the Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject New Zealand, on COIN once twice, in a failed mediation and most recently a failed Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard debate (the failure of that last may have been my fault, it appears I chose the wrong venue, which is why I withdrew).
There have also been two instances where the subject has used the text of the mediation in other contexts ([1] and [2]) as explicitly prohibited by The privileged nature of mediation.
User_talk:Offender9000 also has a blog post outing editors which says "A ban was also placed on the Wikipedia page about the Sensible Sentencing Trust after one of the Department’s employees deleted sections of that which were written by Mr Brooking." To my knowledge no editor has self outted as a departmental employee.
User_talk:Offender9000 is the author of an apparently self-published book "Flying Blind:Flying Blind How the justice system perpetuates crime and the Corrections Department fails to correct" (ISBN 9780473180751 associated website) and has been using the Department of Corrections (New Zealand) wikipedia page to promote his view of Corrections Department and penal populism. I've not read the book (and I'm not sure any of the other editors have either), but the subject appears to be using wikipedia as a platform to promote the same point of view; they have already been found to be in COI over the edits on the page.
The subject's view of both the department and wikipedia's processes, is best summed up in these edits vis: the department is acting criminally and the problems at the root of this wikipedia dispute are about content rather than COI or NPOV.
All the other issues are escalations / side shows of this core COI/NPOV issue.
List the policies and guidelines that apply to the disputed conduct.
(Provide diffs. Links to entire articles aren't helpful unless the editor created the entire article. Edit histories also aren't helpful as they change as new edits are performed.)
Users who tried and failed to resolve the dispute.
Additional users endorsing this cause for concern.
Any users may post questions in this section. Answers should be reserved for those certifying the dispute.
Q. To Daveosaurous: At you point 8 it says: "The tag should stay as long as the "Criticisms" section is in its current form. At the moment it is extremely one-sided, in particular the paragraph which claims that "...Corrections is in breach of its statutory obligations..." (This appears unsourced and quite possibly original research). The section's content should either be balanced by other criticism from group"
1)The Criticism section is no longer in its 'current' form.
2)It no longer claims that Corrections is in breach of its statutory obligations.
3)The contents have been balanced by other comments?
Why are you making an issue of concerns that have already been addressed?
A. The full text of the comment (which you have truncated) went on to say: "from groups such as the Sensible Sentencing Trust, and/or references to the 1999 referendum, or (preferably) removed entirely." This has not happened, thus the concerns have not been addressed. In addition, that comment was linked to as an example of an attempt to solve the issues specified by Stuartyeates which are at the heart of this RFC/U; this is part of the certification process, not a reopening of that (moribund but as yet unsolved) debate. Daveosaurus (talk) 06:29, 26 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Q.To Daveosaurous: At your point 9 it says: Much of your contribution is unsuitable for Wikipedia, being non-neutral, referenced to books so obscure they can't be found in Amazon (e.g. "Flying Blind"), or original research (statements such as "Corrections appears to be in breach of its statutory obligations" are journalism, not encyclopaedic material). I note also that Stuartyeates wrote: "I have no problems with references using flying blind, particularly if they give a page number. I take issue with references using a website that's just advertising material for flying blind."
There are more than 80 references on the Corrections Department page and only one of them relates to Flying Blind? This point has been made many times but you keep ignoring it. Once again you quote the particular statement that bothers you: 'Corrections seems to be in breach of its obligations'. This has been removed. Why are you still making an issue of a concern that has been addressed?
A. See above answer for the reason this has been linked to. I am not Stuartyeates and do not necessarily agree with everything that editor says. The statement in question is the most obvious manifestation of the problems found throughout your contributions to this article: poor sourcing, non-neutrality and original research (please read that last link if you have not done so already). I do not have enough knowledge of the inner workings of the Department to be able to tell what else of the content you have added is similarly inappropriate. Daveosaurus (talk) 06:29, 26 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The issue of what is or is not currently on the page is irrelavent in this conversation, which is focused entirely on your behaviour. You repeatedly added references to your book to the page, in fact you edit-warred to insert them. Similarly you have repeatedly made edits which have turned the page into an WP:ATTACK page. Stuartyeates (talk) 07:06, 26 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Q To Nealefamily. Previously you wrote: "A number of the issues raised as concerns about the Department's behaviour are valid and were well documented in the local media. There are also reports from a number of investigations into the various incidents, but these need to be cited in a more balanced manner." What are your concerns?
With the greatest respect, this is very similar to the unhelpful comments that SimonLyall used to make. To claim that issues are "not being treated impartially and emotive language is being used" is too vague to be helpful. How is an editor supposed to respond to that? You need to be specific. Which statements or paragraphs are not balanced? Which word in particular is emotive? If on the other hand you actually edit out a word that you regard as emotive, then you have made a collaborative contribution. Or if you reword a section you regard as non-neutral, then you are performing a collaborative contribution. But if all you do is delete entire sections as SimonLyall and Stuartyeates do; or make vague accusations of bias, how am I (or anyone else) supposed to address that.
You suggested an independent editor. None of us are 100% independent. We all have biases of some sort. That's why wikipedia is a collaborative effort. If you want to improve the neutrality of these articles, you need to start collaborating - instead of leaving it up to some mythical independent editor who probably doesn't exist. Offender9000 (talk) 20:01, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
My reluctance to edit the article was brought about by edit war that broke out again after the attempted mediation. I do not wish to entangled in such conflicts. Researching and contributing in a meaningful way requires both time and effort. To do so in an a conflict situation where, who knows what will happen to your contributions, seems completely pointless to me. I really hope this forum will resolve the matter so that contributing becomes worthwhile. NealeFamily (talk) 23:30, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
{This section is reserved for the opinions and views of the user whose conduct is disputed. Anyone is welcome to endorse this or any other view, but only the person named in the dispute should change or edit the view in this section.}
Let's cut to the chase. One of your desired outcomes is that I "agree to stop outing wikipedia editors". I have never outed any wikipedia editors. On the Talk page SimonLyall wrote: "Try and reflect on why we are editing this article vs why you are editing this article (hint: it is not because we are employed by the Dept)"
I interpreted this sentence to mean that he and SY (the two main protagonists in this debate) both work for the Department, but that this is not "why we are editing the article". I sought clarification and repeatedly asked them to deny that they worked there - and they consistently refused to do so - thereby adding to the perception that they did.
Through other forums, I subsequently learnt that SL and SY do not work for the Department. Since they don't, they have not been outed. But even if they did work for Corrections, the statement made by SL was that "we are employed by the Department" so it seemed to me that they outed themselves. I am not responsible for SimonLyall's ambiguity on this matter and cannot be accused of 'outing' him by repeating a statement that he made about himself. Offender9000 (talk) 13:25, 30 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
In regard to your cause of concern. You say the problems at the root of this dispute are "about content rather than than COI or NPOV". And the content you claim to be concerned about is a statement that the Department is acting illegally. There is no such statement and there never was. There was a claim that the Department was in breach of its statutory responsibilities which is not the same thing. But since there is no such statement in the current version of the page, your cause for concern seems to have disappeared entirely. Can we move on now? Offender9000 (talk) 20:33, 30 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
List the policies and guidelines that apply to the response.
Any users may post questions in this section. Answers should be reserved for the user named in the dispute.
Q. Do you see any conflict between what you say above and WP:OUTING? In particular, do you see any conflict between "Through other forums, I subsequently learnt that SL and SY do not work for the Department. Since they don't, they have not been outed." and "If you see an editor post personal information about another person, do not confirm or deny the accuracy of the information." Stuartyeates (talk) 23:04, 30 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
A. Since SimonLyall was the person who 'outed' you, I suggest you direct your questions about outing to him. Offender9000 (talk) 05:17, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Q. Do you believe the behaviour that you summarise above as "I sought clarification and repeatedly asked them to deny that they worked there", was appropiate, given the WP:OUTING policy? Stuartyeates (talk) 23:04, 30 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
A. Ditto. Offender9000 (talk) 05:17, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Q. In the blog at Corrections Department censors Wikipedia it says say "The Department of Corrections has been deleting information about the Department on a page on Wikipedia. In the last couple of months, the page has become the venue of a wiki editing war between alcohol and drug counsellor, Roger Brooking, and two other contributors who apparently work for the Corrections Department." Do you believe that the Department has been deleting information? Do you believe a retraction might be in order from whoever wrote that? Stuartyeates (talk) 23:04, 30 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
A. What I believe is irrelevant. Its the facts that count. SimonLyall 'outed' both you and himself. I suggest you ask him why he did that.
Q. You have been campaigning in the area of criminal justice and the problems of the Dept of Corrections for many years. Would it be fair to say that your involvement on wikipedia is part of this campaign and that your main interest with wikipedia is to ensure that wikipedia articles in this area (mainly the DOC and SST articles) much more closely reflect your views than the views held by the organisations they are about? - SimonLyall (talk) 03:03, 1 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
A. Where is the good faith in withdrawing from the mediation you initiated, claiming that you don't have time to continue with it, but then participating here. If you wish to participate again, I suggest we reopen the mediation and you can ask as many questions as you like. Offender9000 (talk) 05:17, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Q How do you propose to address the conflict of interest inherent with your continued editing of Sensible Sentencing Trust, an organisation with which you are in serious disagreement, as shown here: [10] ? Daveosaurus (talk) 06:03, 12 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This section is for summaries and opinions written by users who are not directly involved with the dispute, but who would like to share their views of the dispute. Anyone is welcome to endorse any view on this page, but you should not change other people's views.
Right there we can see why some of Offender's contributions are unencyclopedic. Adding more bias or POV will never achieve balance, but deleting it will help. And that applies to the whole page the article appears on, not just the text of the article. Here's an example of a very biased edit by Offender9000.
In this edit here, he added a title to a reference which audaciously misrepresented the reference and subtly placed his POV on the page. The paragraph edited follows, and his edit of it was the addition of the text seen in bold italics.
The reference said no such thing. It actually states the SST has a vision of a safer New Zealand, and a mission "To obtain a large base of community support, and ensure safety for all New Zealanders from violent and criminal offending, through education, development of effective penal policies, and the promotion of responsible behaviour, accountable parenting, and respect for each other at all levels of society." I fixed it here.
Offender9000 needs to accept that it is not true that "....balance is achieved by adding material rather than deleting it...." when the added material is blatant POV. Moriori (talk) 03:12, 30 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Users who endorse this summary:
Offender9000 has engaged in WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior to push a point of view that has involved making accusations of non-good faith on contributors, including speculation on employment with out evidence to back this up and possibly in violation of WP:OUTING. Attempts to find a solution so all parties involved can work together productively and collaboratively do not have appeared to have worked . This WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour by Offender9000 was subsequently continued in this RfC when comments were inserted out of process into other people's views. Offender9000 needs to demonstrate a willingness to set aside WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior and point of view pushing going forward.
Users who endorse this summary:
This section is for all users to propose solutions to resolve this dispute. This section is not a vote and resolutions are not binding except as agreed to by involved parties.
To try to move this debate to conclusion I suggest:
Alternatively for 2 and 3, before inserting edits into the articles - will seek input from the WP:NZ community. NealeFamily (talk) 20:14, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
2)
3)
All signed comments and talk not related to an endorsement should be directed to this page's discussion page. Discussion should not be added below. Discussion should be posted on the talk page. Threaded replies to another user's vote, endorsement, evidence, response, or comment should be posted to the talk page.
Many commentors agree that Offender9000 has engaged in outing, violations of neutrality/weight and battleground-like conduct. Offender9000 continues to dispute these characterizations of his conduct. No recent activity has occurred, therefore this RFC/U is being delisted. Interested users are, as always, free to pursue other forums of dispute resolution if this conflict continues to be an obstacle to collaborative editing. MBisanz talk 22:30, 1 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]