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weight based on primary sources?

I was surprised to see that WP:WEIGHT doesn't mention anything about primary vs. secondary sources (or, alternatively, about sources being independent of the subject). Isn't it fair to say that, in general, weight is established by secondary sources (and/or sources independent of the subject)? There are exceptions, perhaps, but it seems like a common theme in many disputes over weight. For example, a non-notable award given to a person, covered only in press releases from either the award organization or the recipient, would not have sufficient weight to include in an article about that person. That seems fairly straightforward. We would need secondary sources independent of the subject to cover it first, otherwise there's nothing separating it from an award I invent tomorrow and send out press releases for. Is there a reason I'm not thinking of not to include something along these lines? — Rhododendrites talk \\ 04:55, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If the sources, although primary, are independent of the recipient, then this is different from a self-conferred award. and if the awarding entity is notable, or close to notable, even if the particular award is not, that gives it some weight, in my view. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 22:27, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion about moving the Genderqueer article

Opinions are needed on the following matter: Talk:Genderqueer#Requested move 1 August 2017. A permalink for it is here. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:44, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

RfC: Labeling people correctly

I'm proposing a new policy that would also affect the BLP policy. I suggest that there be a policy that forbids articles from describing a living person's political views differently from how the person himself describes them. In other words, we shouldn't be able to call Donald Trump a liberal even though he clearly isn't one. We shouldn't be able to call Richard Spencer a white supremacist even though he rejects that label. We shouldn't be able to call MLK a black supremacist and so on. My policy wouldn't necessarily require a person to embrace the label for it to be acceptable, but if the person says "No, that is not what I am" to a certain label, we should be forbidden to call that person that. I strongly encourage any editors, before opposing the rule, to suggest how to make it better. THE DIAZ talk • contribs 21:38, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Update: I don't think that we should refrain from acknowledging that a person had been called that label, I just think that if they've rejected the label, then we shouldn't call them that in Wikipedia's voice (as a direct statement). THE DIAZ talk • contribs 12:16, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

  1. "Terrorist": The term is most commonly used in a legal or official capacity by representatives of the state. This is actually less subjective than "conservative" or "liberal" and I'd have no problem echoing official designation if readers would interpret it similarly. No doubt many subjects would dispute this designation.
  2. Alt-right: I detail the problems with our application of this term in my comment below and I believe we should be cautious with its usage especially when contradicted by the subject.
The difference in these two cases suggests application of this policy would be highly dependent upon the label applied, thus a list of labels to which is applies would be necessary. James J. Lambden (talk) 20:06, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

While I support the idea in principle, I don't think this is appropriate it the right way. I think it is important to stress a neutral description of a person before going into anything dealing with labels (favorable or not, self-claimed or not) particularly in the lede sentences, but once a neutral description is established, then attributed claims can be included as long they don't otherwise violate BLP. The neutrality part of this is making sure we don't weigh subjective labels of any type over objective, neutral terms. --MASEM (t) 22:00, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, labels can often be seen as being pejorative... and yes, we should respect the self-identification of a BLP article subject... However, that respect can be out weighed by the identifications and labels used by reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject. If the majority of independent sources routinely apply a potentially pejorative label when describing the subject, we need to mention that... even if the subject himself/herself rejects the label. It would actually be non-neutral of us to favor the subject's self-identification and ignore over the labels used by independent sources. Sure, if the subject himself/herself has explicitly rejected a label applied by others, we can (and probably should) note that rejection in the article... but we still have to mention how others label the subject.
To give an extreme example: I doubt anyone would self-identify as a "terrorist" ("Don't call me a 'terrorist' I am a freedom fighter"), but if a significant majority of independent sources routinely apply the label "terrorist" to that person, then we can not (and should not) ignore those sources. We should apply that term here in WP, even though the subject may not like the term. Blueboar (talk) 12:05, 6 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, for something like "terrorist", we should consider if a legal authority has made that statement, which is not a label when applied by a legal definition since it allows the legal authorities to treat the situation far differently (similar to calling someone a murdered once they have been convicted of that , but not before). I've seen RSes use the word "terrorist" for actions that are far far different than what one normally would consider as a terrorist (actions of words, rather than actions of warfare), so when used that way it is still a label and should be treated as such. --MASEM (t) 14:52, 6 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
"Terrorist" falls under WP:LABEL anyway. I disagree with WP:LABEL stating "in which case use in-text attribution" when the term is widely supported for the individual or group. I disagree because this is a misleading use of in-text attribution since it implies that only that one source has referred to the subject as a terrorist. If the person or group is well-established as a terrorist or terrorist group, we should not be using in-text attribution. I've challenged this wording in the WP:LABEL guideline before and I've been meaning to do it again. I was reverted by an editor when I changed the text, but I never got around to pursuing the matter beyond an existing section on the talk page at that time. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:08, 6 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
First , keeping in mind that by definition, a label is a subjective term, there are a few labels that also have objective definitions - "terrorist" is one of those. If legal authorities have cited someone as a terrorist, that's the objective version; if the NYtimes does the same but without the legal authorities corroborating, that's the subjective version. But most labels do not have any objective element, such as "racist" - there's no objective measurement of this, it is purely subjective.
To that end, whenever one of these labels are used, particularly towards a BLP, it should always be given some type of attribution. If it is a wildly-held stance by the media, then it should be stated that way "John Q Smith is considered a racist by many sources." If it the opinion of a few, more explicit attribution is needed. It's the problem when editors, though rightly identifying a widely-held label on a BLP by the media, want to state that as fact in WP's voice, which must be avoided. And importantly, this should not be pushed into the article before establishing neutral, more objective aspects first. --MASEM (t) 20:44, 6 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I view labeling someone a racist as different than labeling someone a terrorist. I've also seen people debate what is racist a lot more than I've seen people debate whether a certain action is terrorism. I would not support stating "John Q Smith is considered a terrorist by many sources." I would state the matter in Wikipedia's voice unless there is a valid suspicion that the general consensus is flawed. And as far calling someone a racist, I would be wary of that unless it's an analysis matter that is widely supported by reliable sources (especially if a historical matter) or is referring to one or more comments the person made. Mel Gibson comes to mind; see this section, which, in addition to what it states, points to The Passion of the Christ#Allegations of antisemitism. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:01, 6 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It all depends on the independent sources. If the label is applied by a few sources... then it is an opinion, and we should use in text attribution (if we mention it at all) - and not use the term in WPs voice. If, however, the label is routinely applied by a substantial majority of independent sources, then there is no need for attribution... there is a consensus demonstrated by the totality of sources which indicates that the label is considered accurate and factual (not just opinion). Blueboar (talk) 23:01, 6 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This is where there's problems because of how we have sliced what part of the media we consider RSes. It is very easy in the current days to find notable persons being called some type of label typically associated with the right, with the bulk of left-leaning sources - the ones that make the bulk of our RSes - using that label. We need to be aware of this media bias, and take a conservative (as in middle-ground, not political) route to use attribution for that. If the person was long since dead, and that's how sources today reported on that person, that would be different. It does no harm to WP to take this approach, while if we do repeat blindly what RSes say without considering the big picture, we get into problems when it comes to labels. --MASEM (t) 23:51, 6 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
User:Masem - it's an old saying that one nations 'freedom fighter' is anothers 'terrorist', and really we can simply focus of state a fact, not your opinion. WP:LABEL says to state the label and attribute it. The attribution serves WP:V as well as keeping WP to an WP:NPOV, and what that label source is part of the data. If it has a legal basis like terrorist list is different from just a speech name-calling. Markbassett (talk) 20:22, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Completely fair point and doing so (identifying which nations consider so-and-so a terrorist or the like, or saying John Q Smith was convicted of murder rather than being a murder) is better in the long run. --MASEM (t) 02:26, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Something more is needed, because despite guidance being supportive of this generally, the failures of name-calling and vague pejoratives being given prominence are happening. I think there is guidance to be neutral in naming WP:POVNAME; that WP:LABEL as well as WP:BLP emphasizes to be conservative in wording and do so with attribution; that WP:LEAD has structural guidance that directs one to start by identifying the subject; that WP:OFFTOPIC should keep the focus of a BLP to the life of the person rather than some abstract label, and so on.
Yet WP articles do start with a pejorative (subjective opinion) being stated as WP position and as fact, and as a major part of the article. Restraint needs some more help here.
The examples given included one that diambig shows as "Richard B. Spencer (born 1978), American white supremacist" and the article starts with "Richard Bertrand Spencer (born May 11, 1978) is an American white supremacist.[9 cites]" followed by 3 paras of picked quotes and then the article itself is 11 screens of material that is not Biographical -- his daytime job is hard to see and family is barely mentioned in 3 lines at the end. This is just not giving the appearance of factual or complete biography nor a coverage of RS on the topic, this is reading like a WP:ATTACK rant of hunted criticisms by a POV group with a strong emotional investment.
I'd suggest that WP should strengthen the guidances restraining namecalling and emotionalism. Specifically I'll suggest start by more explicitly saying (1) The BLP subject must be identified in the initial line and mention otherwise made only of their birth date, nationality, or occupation. (2) Any judgemental label should be no sooner than the second paragraph, with the source of the labeling in attribution rather than WP voice, and include immediately after that any denial of the label by the subject.

Cheers Markbassett (talk) 21:06, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

p.s. The area of politics and controversial issues seem particularly fraught to derailing BLP into a Proxy war of Guilt by Association . For that, it may be necessary to offer the stronger guidelines of WP:BLPCOI, WP:PAID, and WP:ARBAPDS. Also may refer to Wikipedia:WikiProject Politics, or look at essays Wikipedia:Politics and Wikipedia:Political dispute Markbassett (talk) 00:10, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Izno: @Blueboar: @Masem: @Flyer22 Reborn: @Markbassett: @The Four Deuces: @Ronz: @Dumuzid: @North8000: Please note my explanatory update at the top that rules out any suppression of content. Hope it clears some things up. THE DIAZ talk • contribs 12:16, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the update. I understand the impetus, but I still think it's unworkable simply because I think the Reliable Sources should always hold the trump card (no pun intended). Thus, to take a silly example, say every reliable source on Earth says "Dumuzid is a far-right fascist." I say "no, actually, I am a liberal based on my idiosyncratic 19th century definition." In that instance I believe it's proper to call me a fascist in Wikipedia's voice and note my self-description. I guess in essence I believe in the power of consensus (some might say the "wisdom of crowds") and I am hesitant to embrace something as counter-majoritarian as self-description in a subjective field like this. That being said, I am wrong plenty. Cheers! Dumuzid (talk) 12:33, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'd rather simply be much more middle-ground, and that anytime a subjective label is used, regardless of the weight of sources, we simply make sure it is clear it is an attributed label, since by the very nature of "subjective" there's no factual way to prove that the label actually fits. It's what we do for "positive" labels, and we shouldn't change that for "negative" labels either. If nearly all RSes call something by some label, we should say "John Q Smith is considered (label) by most analysts." Where self-identification comes into play is how to frame the self-identification relative to the broader opinion towards the label as well as other factors, eg continuing: "John Q Smith is considered (label) by most analysts, but he had denied this and instead states he is (something else)." It's easier to apply evaluation of RSes and self-identification issues if you start from the stance that we should never assign a label factually in WPs w/o proper in-text attribution. It avoids tons of tone and neutrality problems, while still being able to stay true to the balance of RSes. --MASEM (t) 13:03, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Masem... out of curiosity (and to see where you might draw the line).... would you rewrite the lead of our article on David Duke with attribution... Or is that a case where applying the labels in WPs voice is OK? Blueboar (talk) 15:20, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No, the clarification doesn't clarify. Basically, this is an argument for a specific type of WP:SOAP, giving WP:UNDUE weight to a source regardless of it's quality, violating WP:BLP, and reducing the weight given to other sources regardless of their quality. --Ronz (talk) 15:50, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the ping. I haven't felt the need to vote, though; this is probably because I don't think your proposal will pass. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:17, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
To Blueboar: "David Ernest Duke (born July 1, 1950) is an American politician and former Louisiana State Representative (1989-1992). He was the former Imperial Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan and is widely considered as a white nationalist, antisemitic conspiracy theorist, and Holocaust denier." There would be more to change but that keeps the lede otherwise intact and addresses the label issue I'm talking about without burying the wide perception about it. --MASEM (t) 16:49, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
When commenting above, a person such as David Duke came to my mind. I wouldn't include "widely considered as." I mean, what sources are stating the contrary? Is he denying that he is a white nationalist, for example? I don't see that he is. So I'd go with what the lead currently states. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:55, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a lack of issue of contrary sources, or availability of self-statement. It is that they are subjective terms, period - that's the whole issue of labels. Even if every possible RS we find uses a certain label on a person or the like, we should not presume it is fact, and at least adding clarifying language that "widely considered as" avoids that but doesn't diminish the weight of sources using that label. Moreso, labels should not be in a lede sentence, because that affects the article's tone off the bat. We do have to get to the fact he was connected to the Klan, you can't hide that, and that's why the second proposed sentence, grouped with labels frequently applied to the Klan, works. The first sentence is 100% objective, and sets a neutral tone to start the article, while the current sentence immediately gives a negative impression, which we should not be doing at all.
I realize there are some labels, like "Holocaust Denier", which may seem obvious, but you have to remember that because it still is subjective, the "bounds" of whom gets included shift. There have been debates, for example, of what the objective difference is between a "climate change skeptic" and a "climate change denier", and you'll find commentators that like to shift people that some consider as "skeptics" to "deniers" by twisting a few words. That's why we need to be fully aware of how these subjective labels work, and outright avoid stating them as unattributed fact. --MASEM (t) 19:23, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree in this particular case (David Duke). Duke quite clearly supports white separatism, for example. Plenty of things are labels, including "runner," "feminist," "radio host," "actor," and similar. Some people have subjective feelings about what an actor is as well; for the more extreme side of that debate, see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Pornography/Archive 7#Preferred disambiguator: "actor/actress" or "pornographic actor/actress"?. But, with the exception of "feminist," which can be a contentious word, we don't refrain from labeling subjects by these terms ("runner," "radio host," "actor," etc.). I don't see that it should be any different for a number of the more controversial terms, especially if the labels are accepted as fact (not just widely accepted as fact) and the subjects do not dispute the labels, and especially if they even embrace the labels. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:40, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
And, yes, I'm aware that things like "radio host" and "actor" are occupations. Duke has made a career out of white separatism. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:48, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree that things like "radio host" and "actor" are labels. Yes, people can self-apply them, and I know there was a case somewhere on a BLP who was self-stating they were a philosopher, despite having no recognized qualifications for it. The thing with terms like "runner" or "actor" or the like is that we can actually make objective determination if that is what they do. Did they star in a film or TV show? They're an "actor". Did they regularly compete in an organized race event? They're a "runner". We have clear objective line for these. Further, these are neutral terms. ("Feminist" is a label nowadays because there are definitely different schools of thought of what feminism is, and I've definitely seen cases of people mis-categorized here). Nearly every subjective label instead is trying to guess on a person's motivations, and then how other people interpret those motivations, and that is the recipe for subjectiveness. Even if someone self-identifies with the same stance that most other RSes agree with, it's still better to give that attribution: "John Q Smith is a self-identified Holocaust denier...". A core point of NPOV is that we never should be saying for any topic "X is (subjective language)" without clear attribution of whom that subjective language is coming from. --MASEM (t) 20:17, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I just don't see that some of these controversial terms are subjective, at least in most cases. If we are going by the WP:NPOV policy, which applies neutrality differently than we do in common discourse, then stating some of these labels in Wikipedia's voice is fine (and I don't just mean cases where the law agrees). I can't see any WP:NPOV violation with stating that David Duke is a white nationalist, antisemitic conspiracy theorist, and Holocaust denier. And if a subject embraces being a white nationalist, I don't think we should use qualifiers such as "considered to be." I'm fine with "self-identified white nationalist," but I don't think it's needed. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:27, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It's the emotional loading, and extra implicit meaning behind the labels that makes them subjective. Some labels are fine, because they don't have the emotional loading behind them. Things like White nationalist don't have the same cultural emotional loading as actor. --Kyohyi (talk) 20:41, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I understand the "emotional loading" argument. I'm not automatically okay with a controversial label being used. I've noted my feelings a little higher up too. But a case like David Duke's? Certainly not subjective as far as "white nationalist" goes. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:47, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Can you define what exactly are the conditions we use for a "white nationalist" label? Likely not - either you can, and it will then be relatively easy to find cases of people called "white nationalist" in RSes that don't fit that objective definition, or we agree that its definition is entirely subjective. Yes, there will be people, like Duke, that will be very much at the center of that perceived definition of "white nationalist". However, it is more recognizing that when you get to people that are at the periphery of that perceived subjective definition that are more questionable, like those cases that James Lambden is describing below. And there is no easy way to distinguish between the "easy" cases of Duke, for example, and the edge cases to make a clear call, particularly considering the modern-day media leanings, and thus it is better to simply denote clearly where subjective labels are use and give attribution. We still maintain the NPOV's UNDUE (we're not hiding that label), but just using a more impartial, clinical tone. --MASEM (t) 21:13, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Conditions? A case-by-case matter, like many other things on Wikipedia. In these cases, we should analyze what the factors are, what the sources state, and how common it is or isn't for the subject to be described that way. One factor would certainly be any sources that disagree. Another would be self-identification. Duke's case is easy. He is a white nationalist. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:25, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Whenever we deal with case-by-case situations, that leads to further subjective decision, now in our hands, and there's very little doubt that certain articles will gain editors that have implicit biases in either direction. Duke may seem like a case where there's no issues, but the problem exists far more often with very little obviousness elsewhere that makes the problem worse throughout WP. Again, James Lambden has identified one area where editor bias readily prevails to push highlight subjective levels chosen by editors, banking on a number of opining RS sources to be able to make these assertions. If we flat-out said that labels should be treated as subjective language and per NPOV, all subjective language should be clearly marked as some type of attributed opinion, then editors cannot play these types of games. It make seem to add a few extra words to someone like Duke where there is no seemingly apparent issues, but it also creates a simple rule that avoids the problem where the issues do arise. --MASEM (t) 13:52, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think it might be worth pointing out the example of Genocide on the main policy page. From the page "For example, an article should not state that "genocide is an evil action", but it may state that "genocide has been described by John X as the epitome of human evil."". I don't know anyone who would not consider genocide as evil, but the policy calls out attribution of something that seems uncontroversial to me. Further, it calls it out for a non-blp subject, whereas we're dealing with BLP's which should be held to a more conservative standard. --Kyohyi (talk) 14:03, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Masem, you know I am always open to your perspectives, but it's clear that we don't fully agree on this matter. I do not think some of these terms are as subjective as you believe them to be. There are different definitions of "terrorist," but it's pretty straightforward for the most part. And if the subject (whether it's a person or a group) is by and large referred to as a terrorist in reliable sources, I think we should do that as well. Qualifiers like "considered to be" is unnecessary WP:Weasel wording, especially when no source exists challenging the label. It's adding unnecessary doubt to the term. We don't label living people "racists," unless reporting on the commentary/analysis of reliable sources (and in those cases, we give the subject's side of things if they have argued against the descriptor). But we do label people "white nationalist," especially when they embrace the label, as is the case for Duke or Craig Cobb. All in all, I understand what you are arguing, but I don't fully agree.
Kyohyi, calling things evil in Wikipedia's voice is foregoing an impartial tone; that's why we don't do things like that. "Evil" not only has its roots in religious beliefs (and I and many others are not religious), it's relative for some things (despite the fact that many people agree on a lot of things being evil). I don't see how it goes against being impartial to label Duke or Cobb a white nationalist. What is evil is more of an opinion; Duke and Cobb being white nationalists is a fact. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:42, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
What I'm trying to stress is that focusing on David Duke as an example is perhaps not a great place to emphasize the issue because some of these labels he has self-identified with, and I would certainly agree that the other labels being applied to him do not seem to generate controversy; in other words, it seems to be no problem to describe him in these labels in WP's voice. The issue is when you get people at the periphery or grey area of where these labels are applied where it becomes very important to attribute those labels. Especially nowadays in areas of left-vs-right political or ideological areas; it's clear that some commentators on the left want to use terms like "alt-right" or "white nationalist" to funnel more people into these terms that, on the current moral compass, are considered "bad", just as commentators on the right like to push people to be "bleeding heart liberals", "social justice warriors", and "anti-fascists". This is a natural human behavior of trying to taint the position of an opponent by using negative-loaded terms, it's standard practice in op-ed journalism, but it has grown worse as the quality of today's journalism degrades. This is not to say we should ignore this if a reasonable proportion of commentators ascribe a label to a person (to do that would violate UNDUE) but we shouldn't presume that to be a fact stated in WP's voice. I can fully appreciate that the same natural behavior to belittle people ideologically against you would lead us as editors to want to focus on the negatives for a person or group and justify including those labels, but we need to rise above that per our neutrality to put our personal biases away and make sure that subjective and biasing language made by the media is at least attributed to the media, taking WP out of the picture of the situation otherwise. This may seem a pointless exercise for someone like Duke, but because that gray area for labeling is extremely large and continually growing as this culture war persists, we should adopt an approach that is universal that attributes any subjective term regardless if it is appropriate or not.
I will say that there are two exceptions that should be made: self-identification, and for long-dead people or groups that have long since ceased to exist, where scholars have settled on how that person/group will be remembered. But it is surprising that when I go back to look for examples in this area, on historical figures known to have "bad" qualities, we rarely touch on any labels in the lede section. So I think a lot of this is also related to editors writing too much for WP:RECENTISM and not working towards the longer-view. That is, consider how we'd right Duke a decade out from after he died? We wouldn't be emphasizing these labels in the lede if we follow the trend of other bios of deceased people. --MASEM (t) 16:19, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Masem, I'm sorry. I really don't mean to beat dead horses, and Flyer22 has been aptly representing my viewpoint. But again, I think you're on a slippery slope to the proposition that we must correct inherent errors in the reliable sources, and that to me is unacceptable. With that I'll wish you and everyone else a good day, and I'll try to mind my own business! Dumuzid (talk) 16:43, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I never said that RSes were wrong. I said that they have inherent biases (which has gotten worse over the last decade) which per WP:BIAS we are not supposed to follow. Attributing a subjective claim to an RS does no harm (and strengthens our sourcing policy) while blindly repeating a subjective claim as fact just because an RS said it can possible be harmful to us. --MASEM (t) 17:02, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, what a blatant misrepresentation. Attributing statements is not "correcting". Attributing statements is the most neutral way to say something. We're not here to adopt the viewpoint of "reliable sources" we're here to document the viewpoint of "reliable sources" (this is quoted because what counts as reliable is debatable and consensus can change) --Kyohyi (talk) 18:19, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

IMHO, when one gets to characterizations of individuals in broadly contested political areas:

Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 16:33, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Even worse, the text: "Popular Ideas: Dark Enlightenment - White Nationalism - White Supremacism" is displayed prominently in the category box at the bottom of each of their articles.
I see the main problem in this instance as application of an ill-defined label which many of the subjects reject, as opposed to say "conservative", which is rarely rejected. A potential solution would be to create a list contentious labels not to be used unless embraced by both the press and the subject. James J. Lambden (talk) 20:06, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This is a good example, while sources use the term, are they using the term in the same way we're defining the term on Wikipedia. If not, than the wikilink and the loaded language that comes with it creates a BLP violation. --Kyohyi (talk) 20:44, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If there is a dispute about a description of a person or group then obviously we cannot use it without qualification, but when there is no dispute then we can use it. See for example Golden Dawn. The article says it is "far-right" and "Scholars and media have described it as neo-Nazi." While there is certainly that it belongs to the far right party family, there may be a question whether a group that denies links to Nazism can be described as neo-Nazi. But the distinction has nothing to do with how the party describes itself, but reporting in reliable sources.
I think terrorism is outside the scope of the discussion because it is not a political view but a tactic. It rightfully comes under guidelines which we are obliged to follow except where there is good reason not to. There is consensus for example that Abu Nidal and Osama bin Laden were terrorists and occassions when avoiding or qualifying that term would cast doubt on the consensus or require stilted language. Also, conviction by a U.S. court of something Congress has decided to call terrorism is insufficient to call someone that. That's the whole point of adding the term to WP:LABEL.
TFD (talk) 01:37, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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