RfC: "falsely" in lead[edit]

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
I'm involved in this discussion and this is not a formal closing statement. This discussion has been open for more than nine months now, and much has changed in the body of sources about this article topic. If someone wants to change away from the status quo, it would be more productive to start a new discussion than to continue this one. I'm likely to undo this closure if it's requested by any editor in good standing, though I'll probably then refer it to WP:Closure requests. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:50, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Should the word falsely be included in the first sentence of the lead? soibangla (talk) 09:08, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The cites that claim the documentary is false have not proven that the documentary is false; they have only served to diminish the reliability its claims. Nothing has proven that the documentary's claims are false. Thus, the article does not falsely claim the election was rigged; rather, it purports to prove as much. This is the objective version that must be used in accordance with WP: NPOV.
The editors that have suggested falsely have injected biased viewpoints into this article. If any of the sources cited were actually read and not relied on by headline, then they would understand that the film has not objectively been proven false, only rebutted in part by several credible sources.
The proper edits is that the film "purports" to prove its claims. AnubisIbizu (talk) 16:34, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Actually it has been proven false. Hope this helps! Internetronic (talk) 04:06, 31 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Back-and-forth with various IP sox of Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Makofakeoh. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 23:33, 2 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
  • Rebuttal Here is a sample of sources using the word "falsely", (feels like the issue is actually with the word "says" so simply replace the word "says" with "alleges" or "claims" to conform with the sources, and that should remedy this edit-war over semantics)
    • "The film alleges that by using geolocation data purchased by the filmmakers they were able to track “ballot mules” to drop boxes where they falsely allege the “mules” were paid to stuff the boxes with completed ballots."AZ Mirror
    • "The film falsely claims unnamed nonprofits linked to the Democratic Party paid people, whom it calls “mules,” to illegally collect and deposit absentee ballots in drop boxes in five swing states where Biden won–Georgia, Arizona, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin."Atlanta Civic Circle
    • "The Republican head of Georgia’s election board said Tuesday that a recently released film alleging ballots were illegally collected and dropped off during the 2020 presidential election falsely suggests there were tens of thousands of illegitimate votes in the state."[1]
    • "The film falsely implies that rampant voter fraud compromised the 2020 presidential election, costing Trump a second term."[2]
    • "<title>Dinesh D'Souza film '2000 Mules' Falsely Implies Data Solved A Murder : NPR</title>"NPR
    • "In other words, D’Souza is elevating shaky, misrepresented, incomplete claims to bolster his rhetoric — as I said, an apt summary of the movie overall."WAPO (though the word "falsely" isn't included, the context can be easily paraphrased without WP:synthesis to infer an indictment of dishonesty, which "falsely" by itself conveys neutral enough language that it would not be a NPOV violation in the form of WP:WEASEL words.
    Again, "falsely" is used consistent across the board by the sources, so we must respect the sources and report their overwhelming consensus on the topic for what is simply a WP:FRINGE matter for which wikipedia insofar as strict policy as no tolerance. For those coming in late, this is no different than outrageous slanderous anti-social fringe ideology like conspiracy theories about the holocaust. The sources on this no-brainer of a matter are not wavering, as well. Their take is that this anti-social slanderous fringe "about the big lie" is repackaged as a movie, and they are they comfortable leaving it 'simply to the readers to decide'- i.e.by allowing a false balance to suggest there are two sides to this debate. So burying certainly language in the lead would not only misrepresent their reporting but would do a disservice to the reader. Let's not try to right all the wrongs in the world WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS but, rather, honor the consensus of the press. Good luck! 2601:282:8100:D3E0:F8B4:39E9:B84D:70FF (talk) 15:32, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Listing some sources that use the word is not a rebuttal to my argument. Semantics matter. Impressions matter. If we can use better, stronger, more direct language than sloppy labeling, then we should do so. WP:LABEL requires us to consider this. ~Anachronist (talk) 19:19, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Rebuttal#2 But it is the sources that matter here not your interpretation of them, or whether or not it hurts our feelings because those dang reporters are just being too dang harsh.
    Your strong personal feelings on the matter borders on WP:OR. Again, it doesn't matter whether you think they are being too harsh or not, because the exception to the rule here is matters of conspiracy fringe WP:FRINGE. This isn't a debate about a critical consensus involving a movie for instance.
    That said, I did in fact directly rebut your claim. You are being obtuse WP:POINTY. To say “falsely claims” rather than “falsely says” is far from sloppy, and that is the direct language used by the sources to counter the central claim of 2000 mules. In fact, you are making an argument for why we should use that original language since you are proposing arguably “sloppy” language that is very verbose and convoluted.
    Yes...“Impressions” DO matter and we should not inject a false balance here when the universal consensus in the press is that this movie is patently and deliberately misleading. If this were not a matter of fringe conspiracy WP:FRINGE theories then you certainly have a point but Wikipedia has a very strict policy and no tolerance for this.
    And because the propagandists involved wish to weaponize not only the press but also Wikipedia in the service of said propaganda, this is why Wikipedia has created a clear redline regarding pro-fringe conspiracy theories WP:PROFRINGE to inoculate itself against this cunning form of gaslighting.
    Unfortunately on this matter we only agree to disagree so we will see what others think about this- hopefully in the service of journalistic integrity and not misguided idealism. 2601:280:CB02:4E49:CC34:1299:CDB1:3D64 (talk) 19:52, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I have no "strong feelings" on the matter, and be mindful of WP:NPA. Your mischaracterizations of my arguments, as well as ascribing non-existent motivations and feelings to me, constitute passive-aggressive personal attacks. Cease commenting on contributors immediately, please. ~Anachronist (talk) 20:10, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Rebuttal#3 I promise you that it was nothing personal as my issue was more with your idealistic methodology (which in my own personal opinion is a common problem with Wikipedia and articles like this) and not with you as an editor; so I'm sorry if you took it that way. I give people enough credit not to be thin skinned, not saying you are.
    I am blunt, as you have learned, and if I truly had a problem with you I would’ve come right out and said it. We are not robots here so when dealing with controversial articles like this, and the inevitable s*** storm that will follow, ‘this’ is a classic example of when we need to ‘assume the assumption of good faith’ Wikipedia:Assume the assumption of good faith, which as you know is not to be confused with Wikipedia's standard vanilla etiquette regarding good faith.
    TL;DR version- If it really needs to be said- Thank you for the spirited debate and for your contributions here and elsewhere, no hard feelings. Yes, we’re done here. 98.50.110.204 (talk) 20:39, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    "Your mischaracterizations of my arguments, as well as ascribing non-existent motivations and feelings to me, constitute passive-aggressive personal attacks."
    ...
    "Cease commenting on contributors immediately, please."
    Looks a lot like projection. Jibal (talk) 13:29, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:LABEL is a bad example here. It recommends the exact opposite remedy given the circumstances:

    The weblink abovetakes you to an essay that points out exceptions to the rule so we don’t “grant a fringe viewpoint undue weight.”

    Furthermore, WP:LABEL actually advocates for labels like “racist” or “pseudoscience” or, for the purposes of this article, a term like falsely when faced with fringe conspiracy theory. In those extreme cases, according to WP:LABEL, those labels do not always violate the policy espoused by WP:NPOV Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Especially when pseudoscientific or empirically-false views "should be clearly described as such".

    Per the content guidelines spelled out by Wikipedia:Fringe theories, certain labels are more than appropriate when supported by reliable sources and should be used to distinguish fringe theories from the mainstream. The essay concludes that in those rare cases it is proper to embrace what might seem like weasel words or reductive labels.

    To demonstrate this point, as luck would have it, 2000 Mules is so problematic apparently that in just the last few hours alone a fresh mainstream article reported that, when it comes to 2000 Mules “…the data can’t actually prove what he and D’Souza suggest it does, for example, or that the purported data they show in the movie is obviously (and admittedly) fake.“[1]

    BlakeWashington (talk) 22:48, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    "Listing some sources that use the word is not a rebuttal to my argument."
    You flat out stated (falsely) elsewhere that the word is never used by RS.
    Your "argument", such as it is, consists of completely baseless claims about the connotations of various words and phrases. There is nothing in Wikipedia policies or guidelines that supports your argument against the use of the word "falsely". Jibal (talk) 13:12, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Analysis | Ballot collectors are 'mules.' Skeptical reporters are 'terrorists.'". Washington Post. ISSN 0190-8286. Retrieved 2022-06-06.
Comment @Valjean: Could we have your opinion on this one? Nythar (talk) 20:14, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Muboshgu suggested "disproven" or "debunked". Anachronist's suggestions are valid but verbose, and many RS do not make the semantic distinction made by Anachronist, so that's not a big issue for me. Yet, their point that "impressions matter" is important, so a less strident word that gets the same point across would be welcome.
Would someone please make a list of the descriptors used? Try a sentence, with refs, that says: "The film has been described as false,[1] propaganda,[2], debunked,[3]...etc...." -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 14:33, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Makofakeoh. (Unreplied-to comment hatted rather than removed because it is referenced by Muboshgu below.) -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 23:33, 2 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
  • Consider Suggestion: as an alternative "2000 Mules is a 2022 American political film by Dinesh D'Souza that falsely CLAIMS that Democrat-aligned "mules" were paid by unnamed nonprofit organizations to illegally collect and deposit ballots into drop boxes in Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin during the 2020 presidential election."
I agree it probably sounds a bit too personal or cringe to write "falsely says" but "falsely CLAIMS" is a perfect compromise without sacrificing the integrity of the sources:

Rationale:(i.e.when to embrace weasel words SEE LINK) It creates enough space around the assertion that it reads neutral. Watering it down further creates a problem because "debunked" or "disproven" implies that this was a harmless good faith venture by the makers of the film when the truth is the press is clearly reporting on the well-documented malice, willful anti-democracy agenda, and hate driving this political propaganda.

It is important to note that not only are the journalists reporting on the debunked claims but the malice behind said claims. As a matter of fact: It's gotten so bad now, that the propagandists are now outright attacking reporters "as domestic terrorists"[1] in an effort to bully their (and our) first amendment rights.[1] I've never seen anything like this in my life, and most reporters in the press are equally alarmed by this new low.
Some hot-button wikipedia articles, like Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton, unfortunately WILL always mean "there will be no peace"(to respectfully quote you) because of the divisive nature of American politics and, yes, will mean that some wikipedia articles will have to be locked like this for an indefinite future. Unfortunately, there will never be peace with the trolls short of dishonestly watering our article down to say that there is some truth behind the allegations or allowing them to weaponize wikipedia. And we shouldn't aim for the lowest-common denominator.

Alternatives like "...makes unsubstantiated allegations..." do NOT accurately or reasonably reflect the cited sources since it leaves the reader with the false impression that said allegations could be substantiated at some point. That's the difference between a theory that has been disproven, like the black hole information paradox for instance (i.e. where it was proven recently that information does escape a blackhole, and isn't completely destroyed) VERSUS a patently dishonest fringe theory that was a ridiculous documented scam in the first place- like the Minnesota Iceman, which some claimed was evidence of Bigfoot (i.e. it was Disney costume meant as a special fx for a movie that a conman placed in a block of ice).

Again, "falsely claims" seems to be the best fit that hits all the right notes whilst accurately reflecting what is being reported. Because when you say, "falsely says" it gives the article too personal a voice because WHO is saying it? But there is no doubt that the consensus in the press that the "claims" in the propaganda film are not only "false" but intentionally so as a matter of documented fact. So we must respect the reality that, and be ready to take the heat. 2601:282:8100:D3E0:C46E:98E6:A4DB:AE22 (talk) 16:06, 2 June 2022 (UTC) 2601:282:8100:D3E0:C46E:98E6:A4DB:AE22 (talk) 16:06, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ a b "Analysis | Ballot collectors are 'mules.' Skeptical reporters are 'terrorists.'". Washington Post. ISSN 0190-8286. Retrieved 2022-06-06.
While the currently cited sources do not support the use of "falsely" as it currently appears, the IP editor has provided several sources that would support the current use of "falsely" in a reply to Anachronist. These three sources are AZ Mirror, Atlanta Civic Circle, and Colorado Newsline (the other sources say that other claims made by the film are false, but not the specific claim described as false in the current lead). I am unsure if these three are of sufficient weight alone to support the current wording as representing a consensus of RS on their own, when the currently cited AP, Politifact do not support the current wording. It looks like they may be quality sources, as they appear to employ longtime journalists and have won some local journalism awards, but they are relatively new outlets and AZ Mirror and Colorado Newsline are both part of States Newsroom, about which there appear to be some questions about partisanship and ties to funding organizations (on the Wikipedia article and for instance at Open Secrets). Fiwec81618 (talk) 02:57, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Rubbish. It says falsely because it is false. There's no need to leave room for a camel's nose for fringe topics. It's like saying "even though everything presented has been demonstrated impossibly untrue, Wikipedia should still leave the possibility open." No. Rubbish. It's a yellow surrey with the fringe running across the top, down the sides, and up the back, hell, even the wheels. That's what the sources say It's not up to Wikipedia editors to weasel in hair-splitting wedges that are not in the sources. SchmuckyTheCat (talk) 07:44, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If "that's what the sources say", then it should be a simple matter to provide a quote from an RS saying that the claim that unnamed nonprofit organizations paid Democrat-aligned "mules" to illegally collect and deposit ballots into drop boxes in Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin during the 2020 presidential election is false (or "impossibly untrue"). Could you back up your claims and provide one? Fiwec81618 (talk) 00:48, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

“The entirety of the claim rests on cell phone location data, which doesn’t remotely show that people were actually using the drop boxes (it doesn’t have the granularity to show that, as opposed to just walking or even driving by),” said Kenneth R Mayer, Professor of Political Science at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, who spoke to Reuters via email.

"The entirety of the claim". We do not need to nitpick every Gish Galloped thirty seconds of the thing when the entire thing is trash. SchmuckyTheCat (talk) 02:20, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As I've said above, such quotes as the one you provided from Reuters (The entirety of the claim rests on...which doesn’t remotely show...) say that the claim is unproven, rather than that it is false. It very likely is false, but to say so in the article we need a reliable source saying this, and cannot rely on your opinion. The words unproven and false do not mean the same thing, and to take them as equivalents as your reply appears to suggest is sloppy and simply wrong. Fiwec81618 (talk) 19:27, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Back-and-forth with various IP sox of Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Makofakeoh. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 23:33, 2 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Keep It’s not “just very likely false”, it has “been thoroughly debunked” according to one recent source. And D’Souza’s willful-dishonesty with his 2000 Mules hoax has been well documented and reported. You make it sound like there is a possibility here and that misrepresents the sources. Holocaust denial is called “false” in the lead and this similarly sociopathic fringe theory is also “false”. So it stays 2601:280:CB02:5881:4C3E:231F:3B84:897A (talk) 19:53, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
D'Souza's dishonesty is tangential to the discussion, which is about Wikipedia's description of the central claim of the movie, so let's keep the focus on what RS say about that specific claim. Holocaust denial claims are described as "false" because we have a huge consensus of RS which say so; just to give an example, a chapter in a scholarly book: Holocaust Denial and Other False Assertions of Fact. In contrast, I have looked at most of the cited sources for the lead sentence and in this discussion and while there is a consensus of sources to describe the specific claim in the first sentence of the lead of this film's article in Wikivoice as "unproven", there is not such a consensus for "false".
Thanks for the quote from the Salt Lake Tribune saying been thoroughly debunked; it is one of the first good sources I've seen that would support the use of "false" or "falsely". Alone it doesn't represent a consensus of sources, but if there are others, I would have little objection (though "false" is better as Anachronist has explained for encyclopedic voice). Fiwec81618 (talk) 20:17, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You are engaging in rules lawyering, also known as WP:GAMING and your rebuttal is simply false and fallacious. We can call hoaxes a hoax and sociopathic fringe theories “false” when the press is saying so. We don’t have to make the perfect the enemy of the good. Our job isn’t to find exact wording, but the overall sentiment and consensus as it were. And the press is universally condemning and calling out the 2000 Mules hoax. There isn’t two sides to this and there’s no chance that the allegations in the movie can or will be true. Nuff said 2601:280:CB02:1106:500B:F368:EA0C:B2A9 (talk) 20:45, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above reply has many accusatory labels but minimal attempts to engage in a discussion of what the sources actually say regarding the specific claim in the lead sentence (rather than just a general "universally condemning" or "calling out" of the movie). It doesn't matter if you or I have personally come to the conclusion that it is a hoax or false. WP:V is not a technicality; it is a core part of Wikipedia's content policy. Can you point to a body of RS saying about the specific claim in the lead sentence that there’s no chance that [it] can or will be true? Fiwec81618 (talk) 21:05, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
To say that it "doesn't matter what we personally think" is a red-herring because the editors (me included) are advocating for what the sources think, and by you obtusely ignoring what the sources think would violate the sources and WP:NPOV. There are exceptions to WP:V, like WP:PROFRINGE or WP:UNDUE where it is completely appropriate to use strong language when faced with wild claims. The burden of proof is actually on you and those that support this movie, it is not on us to disprove it and extend good faith to a bad faith actor character like D’Souza. You’re trying to find some loophole here despite the fact that the press is clearly calling this propaganda film “false”, a hoax, dishonest, etc. For others coming in late on this, so others are not pressured by the bulverism on display here, "Wikipedia's NPOV policy must not be misused so it becomes synonymous with revisionism, censorship, whitewashing, or political correctness". Certain stubborn editors in the minority here simply don't like the fact that RS tells us the film's allegations "are false", so they wants us to remove that. That would violate NPOV. Wikipedia does not offer the opinion that 2000 Mules is false. Wikipedia echoes the reliable sources, all of which say that the information and claims it presents "are false" and the conclusions are erroneous and "thoroughly debunked". Neutrality, in this sense, does not mean presenting both sides equally, because the sources say that one of the sides is wrong and presenting "false claims". You are reminding me of that scene in the movie “Dumb and Dumber” when Jim Carrey says,”but you mean there’s still a chance?!?!?” Sorry but I don’t see you really changing any minds here with your bulverism so unfortunately we only agree to disagree. 2601:282:8100:D3E0:816D:EB4:A8B7:2042 (talk) 22:12, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I assume I'm talking to the same person?
This RfC is about the lead sentence.
Despite the obfuscation, your assertion that There are exceptions to WP:V... and continued refusal/inability to respond to the question

Can you point to a body of RS saying about the specific claim in the lead sentence that there’s no chance that [it] can or will be true?

with reference to any particular examples of sources speaks for itself. Fiwec81618 (talk) 01:14, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
For the record, I never said I wanted to include this sentence that "FACT: there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that 2000 mules can or will ever be true (read: though it is absolutely true-for the simple documented reason(s) that everything from (A) the lack of evidence, to (B) the fabricated evidence in the propaganda film, to (C) the sole phony unverified witness, to (D) the pathological liar D'Souza himself, and (E) to the vetted fact that Trump lost fair & square, do I really need to go into (F), (G), (H), (I) and the rest of the alphabet?!?!?).
Yes, this is about the lead and whether or not it is appropriate to include "falsely claims" in it.
The standard for that is WP:V check!, (read: the sources certainly back the claim and the use that language and stronger language) and the guidelines outlined by WP:UNDUE check! and WP:FRINGE and WP:PROFRINGE when dealing with political propaganda and anti-social fringe conspiracy theories check! Going off my checklist here, and so far so good. Last on my checklist: This is just going on in circles, you are not really changing minds, you are not really offering anything new in the way of compelling reasoning or facts, and bulverism won't prevail in this matter this time around with Trump's tantrum checkmate! So, we are done here, 'mate'. 2601:282:8100:D3E0:3971:E208:F70F:7A90 (talk) 02:03, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm repeating myself because you continue to fail to provide support for your claim that WP:V is satisfied: You want to keep the current lead, which says that the film's claim that unnamed nonprofit organizations paid Democrat-aligned "mules" to illegally collect and deposit ballots into drop boxes in... is false. For whatever reason, despite repeated requests, you have not produced sources with quotes showing that indeed a consensus of RS do call this claim false. Fiwec81618 (talk) 03:06, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You are being misleading, and untruthful- intentional or otherwise. The sources certainly use the strong language in the lead, calling the claims made by D’Souza’s propaganda film “false” and universally the reputable sources are not ambivalent in their reporting on this propaganda film. It isn’t a question for them if the film’s accusations are “unproven” or even “disproven” since there was nothing of substance to prove or disprove in the first place- according to the press, just Trump’s “false” claims about the big lie repackaged as a propaganda film.
We get it, it’s not enough ‘for you.’ Thankfully that isn’t the case for the majority of the editors here. If you truly think there is some egregious violation of policy here then report this article in the form of a WP:ANI, or be done with it and allow the rfc to continue here without your incessant tantrum and disruptive whining 2601:282:8100:D3E0:2185:6639:B36B:2F27 (talk) 15:27, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If it's so obvious, why not provide some specific quotes from sources? Fiwec81618 (talk) 01:39, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Fiwec81618I have...several times. So have the other editors. And when we do, you move the goal posts, or offer fallacious reasoning about why it isn't enough. Maybe consider conservapedia, it is "obvious" you like this propaganda film and believe in the big lie about the 2020 election. If this is SO important to you, then how about YOU provide some 'real' evidence that this propaganda movie is NOT making "false claims" since WP:BURDEN is on you, not the other way around. TTFN 2601:282:8100:D3E0:7863:FB67:DE76:7064 (talk) 03:27, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No, you have not (unless you count disembodied quotes not attributed to a source). SchmuckyTheCat has, and I already dug through the comments under another section to find a quote from the Salt Lake Tribune from (another?) IP user, and have expressed that these alone would not represent a consensus of RS. I've also already discussed at the beginning of this thread sources put forth by (yet another?) IP user in a reply to Anachronist. I would gladly look at other sources if they are pointed out. WP:BURDEN says The cited source must clearly support the material as presented in the article, so since you support the presentation of "falsely" as currently in the lead the onus is on you.
If you consider my evaluation of some sources put forth by others fallacious, why not give some reasons instead of just flinging accusations?
Finally, consider WP:ASPERSIONS and don't make unsupported claims about me. Fiwec81618 (talk) 01:18, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Fiwec81618 Out of the starting gate, thus movie deals with the debunked conspiracy theory that the 2020 election was stolen and because it was debunked it is considered WP:FRINGE so according to the strict polices against pushing fringe theories here on Wikipedia then the WP:BURDEN is actually ON YOU about why we owe “2000 mules” (which is a lame repacking of the 2020 big lie) this neutrality you keep demanding. Why must we be so strict, you keep asking? Because the conspiracy theory that the 2020 election was stolen is COMPLETELY debunked. Same goes with the idea that the Earth is flat. Or that Obama was born in Kenya. Or that the Holocaust didn’t happen. Again- They are considered WP:FRINGE. So just because a new person or movie comes along claiming those debunked theories are true does NOT mean we suddenly have to start over and come from a place ‘of neutrality’ when the press certainly is not. The RS isn’t on the fence on this. Bill Barr and Ann Coulter even came out against the movie recently. The burden isn’t on them, or us, to prove that some wild claim isn’t true, but on the person making the wild claim that it is true. Again, WP:FRINGE clearly says we don’t need to present both sides of whether (or not) the Earth is flat, for instance, or any patently debunked theory, just because a new (con)person comes along with a nifty new spin or on it and kicks up some dust in the press. We can reject it out of the opening gate as well, like the press is doing. Wikipedia is about the art of paraphrasing, so don’t need exact quotes on everything. There is nothing saying we can’t use the word “false” as long as it is appropriate. And guess what? The gist of the press is that D’Souza is pushing tired old “false” claims here. So, it’s okay on that front, thankfully because the press is doing a great job calling out D’Souza on this. But even in cases where the press isn’t as united, that is okay because WP:FRINGE and WP:PROFRINGE was designed as a firewall of sorts to address sneaky POV pushing trolls like you, who are looking for loopholes in how we source things, trying to sneak in fringe-junk like this. The debate is exhausted here, especially for all the reasons I just have now given, so this is a WP:STICK on your end that you need to drop. 205.168.105.204 (talk) 01:25, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Am I talking to the same person here? Unlike what you (or others) claim, this is not centrally about neutrality, but rather an issue about WP:V (and to a lesser extent, WP:WEIGHT).
We aren't talking about whether it is accurate to say there is a "debunked conspiracy theory that the 2020 election was stolen". We are talking about the specific wording of the first sentence in the lead. Does there exist a consensus of RS supporting the statement in the Wikipedia article for 2000 mules that the film falsely claims unnamed nonprofit organizations paid Democrat-aligned "mules" to illegally collect and deposit ballots into drop boxes in...? Prove it.
No amount of name-calling or name-dropping WP:FRINGE makes it acceptable to bypass WP:V: Any material lacking an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the material may be removed and should not be restored without an inline citation to a reliable source. Fiwec81618 (talk) 02:15, 22 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Two of the sources' summaries use the word "faulty", and I've suggested that the word "faultily" be used instead. Noble Metalloid (talk) 00:58, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

NPOV dispute[edit]

I am challenge the neutrality of this page. All sections of the Article are riddled with biased characterizations of the documentary's findings and conclusions. Although arguably unreliable, the news sources that dispute the documentary's findings have not proven it to be true but have only attacked its reliability. Thus, the article should be combed to hedge all biased wording, otherwise the NPOV tag shoud stay on the page. AnubisIbizu (talk) 16:42, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I should note that I also oppose the documentary's purported findings, but urge the editors of this page to sound more encyclopaedic. As yet, the page reads like an unreliable biased news article and not ob objective encyclopedia. AnubisIbizu (talk) 16:45, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Among the biased characterizations are
(1) that the central finding of the film is "false";
(2) that the film "presents no evidence that ballots were illegally collected to be deposited in drop boxes";
(3) that the film "opens with a misleadingly edited clip";
(4) A large excerpt with no citation support stating "AP explained that in various swing counties across the five states, True the Vote used phone pings to cellphone towers to identify people who had passed near ballot drop boxes and various unnamed nonprofit organizations multiple times per day, concluding that such people were paid mules for ballot collection and deposits. Experts said such mobile phone tracking was not accurate enough to distinguish alleged mules from many other people who might walk or drive by a ballot box or nonprofit during the course of a day, such as delivery drivers, postal workers and cab drivers. True the Vote asserted it had conducted "pattern of life" filtering of such people before election season; the AP noted limitations of that approach."
(5) that the film provided "no way to match them with the geolocation data".
I can add more later, these are only a few examples I found after a mere five minutes of reading. AnubisIbizu (talk) 16:59, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Every single one of these things is presented neutrally and with citation. Yes, even (4), which is cited in the sentence before and just needs a citation at the end. This has all been discussed before. "Neutrality" does not prevent bunk from being debunked. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:36, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
With all due respect, sir, I think that you are improperly injecting bias into your decision here. I can see that other users have contested the same, yet you have overridden that as well. I can see that you are an administrator, so I will concede to your authority on here, but this post is undoubtedly biased, and you have not addressed each of my concerns sufficiently as required by under WP: NPOV policy, which you have violated. AnubisIbizu (talk) 17:50, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Simply put, you are a biased administrator. AnubisIbizu (talk) 17:51, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Everyone is biased. Don't pretend that you are not. I am not acting as an administrator here, but as an editor. This article is sourced and written neutrally in debunking a movie based on false pretenses. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:32, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That is your opinion. The film makes a reasonable argument that has not been proven empirically false. To say that is it false is argumentative, not factual. The same is true of saying that the film is true. The film might be true or false, but we do not know for a fact which is the case. Therefore, as an encyclopedia, we must be more objective. Acknowledging your bias does not make it acceptable. Do better. AnubisIbizu (talk) 19:09, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Well, given that some premises on which the film is based are demonstrably false (a fact, not an opinion), one might say that it's a violation of WP:SYN to conclude that the film's conclusions are false. However, I wouldn'tsay that is synthesis, that's just a WP:BLUESKY feature of logical deduction. Even so, it should be enough for the article to state that the film's conclusions are derived from premises proven false. ~Anachronist (talk) 19:18, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
With that I would agree ^ An objective consensus. Yet the current Article does not frame the discussion as you have reasonable suggested. AnubisIbizu (talk) 19:33, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No, they’re not.
You are obviously saying that because you are unable to view this theme objectively.
The article is clearly filled with biased language and arguments. 76.149.30.215 (talk) 18:44, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Whereas this is a current event, and the article is slanted SO far, even in the lede, there should perhaps be an NPOV tag. Pacificus (talk) 13:44, 27 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a current event and the article is not slanted. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:30, 27 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Discussing what it does not include and needs to explain is a point of view does not belong in this article.DeknMike (talk) 03:46, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Who Made the Movie[edit]

Much of the complaints about the movie is saying what True the Vote said or didn't say. D'Sousa used the data provided by them, but made his own interpretations in his movie. You can disagree with his conclusions, but this is not the place to rail against TTV (take that to Facebook or Twitter). This article should describe what D'Souza said in the movie, and reception to it, not whether we like his source material (TTV). DeknMike (talk) 03:45, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Much of the "reception" to this film is to debunk it. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:59, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Article dismisses eye witness testimony in violation of neutral POV[edit]

POV pushing. That’s not how evidence works. That’s also not how reliable sources work. That’s also also not how we know the moon landings were real. Nothing to see here Dronebogus (talk) 19:18, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The filmmaker interviewed a reliable witness that he saw first-hand, hard proof about lies about Trump’s erection, sorry, I meant, “election”(typo), in 2022! Isn’t that enough to leave this article alone?! I don’t see any evidence disproving the eye witness! EDIT:Please don’t engage in WP:CENSOR This is a fair question! I98.50.104.93 (talk) 21:57, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

People can claim they witnessed things, but that doesn't make it so. We follow reliable sources. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:57, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, that’s why the moon-landing was proved to be fake. The witnesses were biased. But this is different. First of all, most drop boxes have no footage because some states that were supposed to install video surveillance of all the drop boxes didn’t do that. But there are some cases where we have the same guy at more than one drop box. The problem is the footage is so grainy it’s not obvious it’s the same guy. But we do know it’s the same guy. Why? Because it’s the same cellphone ID. And so even though the image is fuzzy, we come back here to the simple point that electronic or digital or DNA evidence is better than “eyewitness evidence”.
As for the credible anonymous source who said she was involved with a ballot trafficking operation in Arizona. The pattern noted in the movie fits the pattern seen in the proven ballot trafficking in Bladen County. As summarized on pages 20–21 of the first day of the SBE hearing on that proven ballot trafficking, workers would first gather ballots, including those only partially marked or in unsealed envelopes, and deliver them to the appropriate office. The workers would later take the ballots and mail them in batches of ten or less at post offices near the homes of the voters whose ballots they took. The program delivered ballots that way to avoid raising a red flag with election officials. Now if that’s not proof, I dunno what is? Please put this argument to rest now, and fix this article once and for all. 63.157.229.250 (talk) 20:29, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Reliable sources treat the moon landing as real and the allegations in 2000 Mules as phony. So that's what we do. Even if it's wrong. Verifiability, not truth. (The Arizona audit determined that there was no election fraud btw.) – Muboshgu (talk) 20:45, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
where did you hear all this? please provide links I can review for possible inclusion. anything from 8chan would be fine. soibangla (talk) 20:59, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.: "forensics can now support psychologists in their claim that memories and individual perceptions can be unreliable, manipulated, and biased." Human biases tend to color human memories. Dimadick (talk) 08:49, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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