Canada and Australia and New Zealand[edit]

Why does the table list gestational age limits for Canada and Australia and New Zealand? Canada has no laws regarding abortion whatsoever, their abortion laws were overturned by the Supreme Court in the late 199th decade and have never been replaced with anything. Australia has no federal abortion laws (just like the United States), and every state and territory has enacted legislation to remove the procedure from their criminal codes. The only regulations are found in their health policies, just like any other medical procedure. And New Zealand repealed their abortion laws a few years ago through an act of Parliament which fully decriminalized the procedure (they did so legislatively while Canada did so judicially). In all three countries, there is no upper limit on when one can be performed, as long as a physician determines it to be in the best interests of the patient, which the law does not specify any requirements for. The only way to be prosecuted for an abortion is by performing one without a medical licence. I believe it would be more accurate to state that the three countries have no legal restrictions on abortion. 75.27.37.89 (talk) 08:08, 29 November 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The table considers anything that has legal force, not just criminal codes but also any laws, regulations and judicial decisions.
Canada has been discussed before here. The laws of Canada do not explicitly mention abortion, but they prohibit medical practice without a license and authorize a single institution in each province to issue such licenses and to make regulations that licensed professionals must follow, and these regulations in turn specify gestational limits for abortion depending on the circumstance. See for example Quebec[1][2] and Alberta.[3][4] The table lists the limits according to the sources cited in the note there.[5][6]
The laws of Australian states and of New Zealand, cited in the table, explicitly specify a gestational limit under which abortion can be done without restriction, and the circumstances that physicians must consider to allow abortion after this limit. Accordingly, the table shows a gestational limit for these countries only in the last column, which refers to abortion merely by the woman's request, and no limit in the other columns, which refer to circumstances determined by the physicians. Please see also my responses to your comments to the map here. Heitordp (talk) 18:29, 29 November 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
So in other words, what you're saying is that Canada does have indirect abortion laws, or more accurately pseudo laws, even if they're not quite as obvious as an actual piece of legislation which is created by a body of government? 75.27.37.89 (talk) 08:32, 1 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Also, regardless of whether those countries have abortion restrictions, it's still worth pointing out that all three have no restrictions in their criminal codes. This is vastly different from much of Europe where abortion is regulated by the government and subject to criminal laws. This is true even in otherwise progressive nations such as the UK, France, the Netherlands, and Sweden. 75.27.37.89 (talk) 08:32, 1 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yes, the abortion regulations in Canada can be considered indirect laws. These regulations are established by regulatory colleges, which are authorized to do so by laws created by the provincial legislatures.
Canada, Australia and New Zealand still have criminal penalties for abortion not done by medical professionals. In Canada they are generally for medical practice without a license, and in Australia and New Zealand they are specifically for abortion. There are also other countries that have removed criminal penalties for abortion done by medical professionals, such as Bahrain and Laos, but their abortion regulations that medical professionals must follow are more restrictive than in the European countries that you mentioned. So I don't think that the removal of abortion from the criminal code by itself is really notable. Heitordp (talk) 16:27, 1 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Well for one thing it shows the intent of the law. I don't think a law in Texas which gives life in prison to a physician who helps a 12 year old rape victim terminate a nonviable and dangerous pregnancy can be compared with an abortion law in France which simply requires a physician to approve an abortion after the first trimester as medically necessary, but with no legal requirements which must be met and no criminal penalties involved. It's obvious that one of these is about enforcing your personal views on everyone else, while the other is about protecting patient safety and maintaining health standards.
I'll also admit that I'm surprised about Bahrain and Laos decriminalizing abortion. Laos isn't too surprising as a communist country, since they tend to be free of any social issues which are fueled by religion, even if they're hardly free in any other way. Bahrain is a lot more surprising, since it's an Islamic theocracy which means it's even worse than a Christian theocracy. I'm not saying I don't believe you, but I would like to see where you heard that they have no criminal restrictions on abortion. 12.14.78.226 (talk) 23:49, 15 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Texas and France are already shown very differently in the table and map, because Texas allows abortion only in case of risk to the woman's life, and France allows it merely by the woman's request in the first 16 weeks and for various medical reasons at any time.
Communist countries are not necessarily more liberal regarding abortion. For example, Albania, Cambodia, Bulgaria, Mongolia, Mozambique and Romania only liberalized abortion after they ended communism or during their transition from it. Laos has been communist since 1975, but it only decriminalized abortion by medical professionals in 2017.
Bahrain is not a theocracy, it's a semi-constitutional monarchy where the power is shared by the king and elected representatives. It defines Islam as the official religion and imposes some Islamic laws, but it still allows the private practice of other religions. Most other Muslim-majority countries are similar. Very few countries can actually be considered theocracies, where the government is assigned to religious leaders, such as Vatican City and to some extent Iran and Afghanistan. Also, in terms of abortion Islam can be less restrictive than Christianity, as many Islamic interpretations allow abortion for various medical reasons while many Christian interpretations allow it only for risk to the woman's life.
All sources about Bahrain and other countries are already in the table in the article. The penal code of Bahrain imposes penalties for abortion only if not done by a medical professional (article 321) or if done without the woman's consent (article 322). In fact, because of this the UN listed Bahrain as allowing abortion on request.[7] However, the medical regulation of Bahrain prohibits abortion except in case of risk to the woman's life (article 19). Medical professionals who violate this restriction are subject to disciplinary actions such as suspension or revocation of license (articles 30 and 31), but not criminal penalties. Heitordp (talk) 05:09, 16 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Why was contraceptive failure removed from the map key?[edit]

I don’t understand why user 7szz removed contraceptive failure from the map key. I think it needs to be mentioned in the article, as India and Laos adding it as an exception to their laws is a very significant development, considering that the data I’ve seen shows that the majority of abortions are of pregnancies that resulted from contraceptive failure, and other countries might follow them, as it was added in early 2021 in India and that seems to have possibly inspired Laos to add it as well later that year.

Have other countries also added it to their laws, or does it seem like they might? I think it’s really important to note the countries that have, for the reasons I’ve already mentioned, and to explain what sorts of “proof” of which contraceptive methods failing might be required in the countries where contraceptive failure is an exception to abortion bans. (Sorry to go a bit off-topic, but I want to add that I think that info should be added for rape exceptions as well, as I’m sure the requirements differ greatly across different countries, like, for example, countries like Poland that require police involvement vs. countries like Ethiopia that only require the woman’s word.)

Also, I disagree with user 7szz’s claim that contraceptive failure is “included in socioeconomic ground”. And another very important thing that I think needs to be noted is what qualifies as allowing abortion to protect the woman’s health or life. There’s a big difference between countries that only allow abortion in the case of ectopic pregnancies and countries that essentially allow abortion on-request under the exceptions for protecting a woman’s health and life because they recognize that abortion always does that, as it does much less damage to a woman’s body than carrying a pregnancy to term does and has a much lower mortality rate.

I want to clarify that I’m not suggesting adding all of the things that I’ve mentioned or suggested to the main map itself at the top of the page, which is what I’ve been referring to (and which is, I have to say, an absolutely wonderful map that I appreciate a lot and the absolute best source I’ve ever seen on abortion laws around the world). But there are a few additional maps that have been added lower down in the article (the ones that focus more in detail on laws in Europe and U.S. states and Canadian provinces), and I was thinking that more maps could possibly be added that are like those but tackle the other things I’ve mentioned. 2600:100A:B1E2:2B0A:2414:8730:E191:B801 (talk) 13:24, 31 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

India added the criterion of contraceptive failure already in its first abortion law in 1971, but it was limited to married women. The change in 2021 was only to extend it to all women regardless of marital status. So by itself, this criterion for abortion is not new. It's possible that the change to the law in India inspired the regulation in Laos, but unless we find reliable sources that indicate so, it's speculation and should not be mentioned in the article.
The Indian law says that abortion is allowed in case the pregnancy involves a risk of "grave injury to her physical or mental health", then it adds an explanation that in case of contraceptive failure, "the anguish caused by such pregnancy may be presumed to constitute a grave injury to the mental health of the pregnant woman". The Laotian regulation lists contraceptive failure under the category of "social aspects", so user 7szz is correct at least in the case of Laos. Since neither of these countries lists contraceptive failure as a category on its own, I don't think that the map legend should do so either.
The only other country that I found which mentions contraceptive failure in its abortion law is Guyana, but it also allows abortion on request, the only difference is the gestational limit.
For all countries in the table, the categories of risk to life or health refer to risk of harm due to an abnormal medical condition, such as an ectopic pregnancy, which is much clearer and greater than the general minimal risk from a normal pregnancy. If a country allows abortion practically on request because it considers that any pregnancy is a potential risk to health, such as the UK, it's also marked as permitted in the columns of economic or social or on request. Note that even these countries still treat the two cases differently, for example abortion due to a clear risk to health is allowed at any time, but if only due to a potential or general risk from a normal pregnancy it has a gestational limit.
Feel free to add notes to the table if you'd like to clarify any detailed conditions in specific countries, but please add sources to support the information. Heitordp (talk) 04:37, 1 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I wasn’t suggesting that speculation be added to the article, I was just pointing out how significant that development was and could be. I don’t see other countries following Israel’s example of allowing abortion on-request for all unmarried women and all married women with pregnancies that were not caused by their spouses, and it’s not considered as allowing abortion on-request in general, so I wouldn’t say that India really did allow abortion on the ground of contraceptive failure when it was limited to married women. And, although it’s a pretty broad term, I don’t see how someone choosing not to continue an accidental pregnancy is due to socioeconomic concerns and not someone’s desire to not go through pregnancy and childbirth to get a child they obviously didn’t want to have just because they had bad luck and contraceptives failed to do their job. It’s about physical health concerns.
You should know that EVERY pregnancy carries grave risks to the woman’s physical and mental health. My own mother could tell you about how she almost died giving birth despite doing everything “right” and not being considered “at risk” at all, in any way, with the only possibly “abnormal” thing being how well planned out the whole pregnancy was. There are only some things that statistically make those risks even more likely to occur than usual, but the risks are always there, and abortion is always infinitely safer than carrying a pregnancy to term. Carrying a pregnancy to term ALWAYS damages a woman’s body in ways that abortion could prevent, and where I am unfortunately forced to live, the maternal mortality rate is more than a hundred times higher than the abortion mortality rate.
I can’t add notes to the table myself because I don’t want to make an account, as keeping watch on pages would be too stressful for me because of how much I care. Thank you for pointing out Guyana, though, which I see has contraceptive failure listed with a limit of 16 weeks. I wasn’t aware of that because of the hidden nature of the notes. It’s so much easier to see things on the map (except for some of the tiny islands which are very difficult to locate). 2600:100A:B1E2:2B0A:2414:8730:E191:B801 (talk) 06:55, 1 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Discrepancy on British Columbia[edit]

I’ve just noticed that, in the table, the Canadian province of British Columbia is listed as having a gestational limit of 24 weeks, but the map underneath that table that focuses on Canadian provinces shows it as being the only one with a limit of 25 weeks. Which is correct? The same discrepancy is also formatted in a different way in two spots in the article on “Abortion in Canada”. 2600:100A:B1E2:2B0A:2414:8730:E191:B801 (talk) 14:20, 31 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The table cites two sources for Canada. In the first source, the figure says that British Columbia has a limit of 24 weeks and 6 days. In the second source, the figure also says 24 weeks and 6 days, but the text says 23 weeks and 6 days. I think that the text is more reliable than the figure. Heitordp (talk) 04:45, 1 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Well, I found that the article on “Abortion in Canada” had the website for an abortion clinic in British Columbia cited, and that clinic’s website said they do abortions up to 25 weeks, and I feel like that’s going to be the most reliable source.
Here’s that site, which says “CARE Program provides abortions up to the 25th week of pregnancy”: http://www.bcwomens.ca/health-info/sexual-reproductive-health/abortion-services 2600:100A:B1E2:2B0A:2414:8730:E191:B801 (talk) 06:12, 1 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Canada[edit]

In the table, the Canadian subdivisions are shown with gestational limits, with a note saying that they are set by professional regulations. The note cites two sources that mention the limits, but they don't clarify whether these limits are simply due to availability or actually mandatory regulations. Previously when Canada was discussed here, I provided sources about the professional guidelines in Quebec and Alberta, which did say that they were mandatory. However, in 2022 the College of Physicians of Quebec removed the gestational limit for abortion pills and removed the abortion guidelines from its website altogether;[8] the abortion guidelines from the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Alberta are no longer in its website either; and one of the sources cited in the table has a note from 2022 suggesting that the information there may be outdated due to the increased use of medical abortion (pills).[9] Therefore, there is no longer any source citing a provincial regulation that imposes gestational limits. There are also conflicting sources regarding the limits in some provinces, which suggests that they may vary simply due to availability.

Based on these developments, I suggest removing all subdivisions of Canada from the table, then either change all of Canada on the map to purple, which indicates an unclear limit, or set all columns of Canada in the table to "no limit" and accordingly change all of Canada on the map to light blue. Any comments? Heitordp (talk) 06:46, 5 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

https://nafcanada.org/abortion-coverage-region/ Moxy- 12:57, 5 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Moxy: This source is already cited in the table, but it doesn't clarify whether these limits are from mandatory regulations, which medical providers are supposed to follow at the risk of losing their licence, or simply reflect the limits that providers individually decide to establish for their own services. If it's the latter, I don't think that these limits should be in the table. Heitordp (talk) 05:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
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