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This article is written in Australian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, realise, program, labour (but Labor Party)) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

	Australia is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
	This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on August 16, 2005.
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((geodata-check))

The following coordinate fixes are needed for

—117.20.112.15 (talk) 06:17, 3 May 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'm assuming that the above is a spurious entry because the coordinates for " " are fine. --AussieLegend (✉) 07:04, 3 May 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I note that under language it states "Australia has a sign language known as Auslan, which is the main language of about 5,500 deaf people."

Considering the population of Australia, 5,500 deaf people seemed too small a number. The reference 283 does not link to a specific page at the Australian Bureau of Statistics website any more and redirects to another page. This is the current reference. (http://www.censusdata.abs.gov.au/ABSNavigation/prenav/ViewData?action=404&documentproductno=0&documenttype=Details&order=1&tabname=Details&areacode=0&issue=2006&producttype=Census%20Tables&javascript=true&textversion=false&navmapdisplayed=true&breadcrumb=POTLD&&collection=Census&period=2006&productlabel=Language%20Spoken%20at%20Home%20(full%20classification%20list)%20by%20Sex&producttype=Census%20Tables&method=Place%20of%20Usual%20Residence&topic=Language&)

The Australian Network on Disability states on their webpage that there are 30,000 people who use Auslan (https://www.and.org.au/pages/disability-statistics.html) "1 in 6 Australians are affected by hearing loss. There are approximately 30,000 Deaf Auslan users with total hearing loss." The Australian Network on Disability obtained their data from 'Listen Hear! The economic impact and cost of hearing loss in Australia' 2006, Access Economics, viewed 24 February 2017

I would suggest that this needs to be updated. I don't have the skills to update this information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tzali (talk • contribs)

I've updated the reference and the figure to the 2016 Census number, which was 10,112. --Canley (talk) 05:56, 12 May 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The source is now outdated. Change "The Super Pit gold mine in Kalgoorlie, Western Australia, is the nation's largest open cut mine." to "The Super Pit gold mine in Kalgoorlie, Western Australia, is the nation's second largest open cut mine." Although, it may be less import as a source due to this update.

I've updated the image, caption and source to refer to Boddington Gold Mine as the largest. --Canley (talk) 07:34, 13 May 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change "Indigenous Australians inhabited the continent for about 60,000 years prior to European discovery" to "Indigenous Australians inhabited the continent for about 65,000 years prior to European discovery."

This is supported by these articles, all of which come from reputable sources.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2017-07-20/aboriginal-shelter-pushes-human-history-back-to-65,000-years/8719314

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/jul/19/dig-finds-evidence-of-aboriginal-habitation-up-to-80000-years-ago

https://www.nma.gov.au/defining-moments/resources/evidence-of-first-peoples

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/19/science/humans-reached-australia-aboriginal-65000-years.html GrecoSerbHunk (talk) 04:58, 16 May 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

 Done NiciVampireHeart 18:16, 21 May 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The census figures do not include Aborigines. What percent are they? 37.99.48.111 (talk) 10:04, 8 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I think you will find what you're after in the fourth paragraph of the Demographics section. HiLo48 (talk) 10:49, 8 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

British naval officer and author Gavin Menzies argues that the Chinese, through naval voyages like those of Zheng He of the Ming dynasty, arrived on the shores of Australia in 1422.^[1] British journalist Martin Jacques mentions this as well.^[2][3] Moreover, to quote from The Age:

Zheng's vice-admirals, Hong Bao and Zhou Man, beat Cook by almost 350 years. The two men, both eunuchs (as was the custom for captains), arrived in Australia in 1422 - Hong on the west coast, Zhou on the east - and spent several months exploring, landing in several places. Their ships were massive - 122 metres long by 27 metres wide - not that much smaller than a modern aircraft carrier and absolute giants compared with those used by Columbus about 70 years later. The captains navigated by the stars. Each ship had up to 1000 sailors.^[4]

Archaeological evidence suggesting early Chinese interaction has also been found, including Chinese coins and items imported from East Africa, other areas of Zheng He's voyages.^[5] However this is contested.^{[citation needed]} -- User:Alexkyoung —Preceding undated comment added 01:05, 13 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

No need for non academic junk ....Historians have rejected these theories and assertions outright ^{[6][7][8][9][10][11]} and have categorised this amateur work as pseudohistory.^[12][13][14] --Moxy 🍁 04:04, 13 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

WP:FRINGE and WP:UNDUE. It's a non-mainstream theory so giving it an entire section in this article is way too much. It could possibly be mentioned in Prehistory of Australia#Contact outside Australia. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 05:19, 13 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Why would we add Pseudohistory claim with ZERO proof or academic backing to a history article?--Moxy 🍁 06:28, 13 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

These claims do not belong anywhere in Wikipedia's coverage of Australia's history, as they are WP:FRINGE theories not endorsed by any serious historian. Menzies also believes that Atlantis was real and visited North America... [1] Nick-D (talk) 08:41, 13 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Agreed. And The Age article is being misrepresented in the selective quote used above. Nickm57 (talk) 09:10, 13 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Martin Jacques thought it was worth mentioning, and he does not label Menzies with any of those strong weasel words, but simply reports what others have said. Same with The Age and the Washington Post. If Menzies is a 'pseudohistorian' then why would any sane person allow his book to be published and then marketed? His book is still on Amazon, and people still buy it. I personally may or may not agree with Menzies myself, but that does not matter, as the above passage is just reporting what others have said. However, it is still speculation, well-cited by sources, and the information should be published for the benefit future readers. One day, some historian or archaeologist may read this and decide to verify or refute these claims even further. It does not hurt to publish.

On the references Moxy used: 6 is missing, the reliability of 7 and 8 are questionable; after all why was the original website taken down? 9 is a book review, from a not so reputable source, and is invariably pov; 10 Finlay 2004 does not link anywhere, and specification is needed; these pseudosources are not worth including.

11-14 may be worth including in the above.

Please make an effort to educate yourself about WP policies - particularly some of those listed above by other editors. Just because you find Menzies theories interesting doesn’t mean it’s appropriate in this collaborative project - which has its own rules and policies. A personal blog is not a bad alternative if you want to write without a policy framework like this project has. Nickm57 (talk) 15:41, 13 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I have, but your points do not address any of the points I brought up. Please make an effort to educate yourself about how to make a constructive intellectual counterargument rather than personally attacking others. I am waiting for a response to these claims. According to the BRD cycle, I can make a new bold edit, especially if nobody has addressed these concerns.

Exactly where have I attacked you personally? I suggest a way forward is for you to a) use indenting b) sign all your posts c) put “your points” exactly as that - just points you wish to include to improve the article d) don’t jump off onto people’s talk pages. This is the place for your ideas. And e) Don’t keep adding great slabs of text here it’s so unwieldy.

and yes - you are going to have to wait for considered responses to your further ideas from other editors. Nickm57 (talk) 16:04, 13 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

New proposal

British naval officer and author Gavin Menzies argues that the Chinese, through naval voyages like those of Zheng He of the Ming dynasty, arrived on the shores of Australia in 1422.^[1] British journalist Martin Jacques mentions this as well.^[2][3] Moreover, to quote from The Age:

Menzies claims Zheng's vice-admirals, Hong Bao and Zhou Man, beat Cook by almost 350 years. The two men, both eunuchs (as was the custom for captains), arrived in Australia in 1422 - Hong on the west coast, Zhou on the east - and spent several months exploring, landing in several places. Their ships were massive - 122 metres long by 27 metres wide - not that much smaller than a modern aircraft carrier and absolute giants compared with those used by Columbus about 70 years later. The captains navigated by the stars. Each ship had up to 1000 sailors.^[4]

Archaeological evidence suggesting early Chinese interaction has also been found, including Chinese coins and items imported from East Africa, other areas of Zheng He's voyages.^[5]

However this is contested, and some have rejected Menzies' claims.^[6][7][8][9]

Alexkyoung (talk) 14:56, 13 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I think we should review other edits see if this is a problem in others areas. --Moxy 🍁 16:12, 13 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Moreover, The Age says that Menzies' book was even a best-seller, stimulating heated academic debate over the issue. This is exactly the kind of stuff that needs to be put on wikipedia, in this case not whether Menzies is right or not but the fact that there is an academic controversy in the first place. The Altaic languages are also widely discredited by linguistic scholars, but it has a whole wikipedia article dedicated to it. Wikipedia is a place to promote these kinds of intellectual discussions and thoughts, not a place to tailor or edit history to one's own fantasies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexkyoung (talk • contribs) 15:06, 13 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

According to the BRD cycle,

Cycle. To avoid bogging down in discussion, when you have a better understanding of the reverter's concerns, you may attempt a new edit that reasonably addresses some aspect of those concerns. You can try this even if the discussion has not reached an explicit conclusion.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexkyoung (talk • contribs) 15:37, 13 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

While most editors try to follow most of WP:BRD, in practice if you continue to make edits to an article after your first edits have been opposed your actions will be more likely seen as edit-warring and there is a good chance you will end up blocked. See WP:EDITCONSENSUS. --AussieLegend (✉) 17:37, 13 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Just to add, edit warring in a high profile featured article like this one is taken particularly seriously, especially when there's also a clear consensus in a talk page discussion that the material should not be included. Wikilawyering about this make it that much worse again. Nick-D (talk) 09:57, 14 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I note the articles for most countries have both religion and ethnicity in the main infobox/sidebar. Some of these are expanded by default while some are collapsed and you need to click on them to expand the list.

My preference is for neither religion or ethnicity (or ancestry for Australia, given this is the question in the Australian census) to be listed in the main infobox as they are relatively complex topics and I believe the infobox is for simpler statitics.

Nonetheless to be consistent, I believe the main infobox should either incorporate both the religion and ancestry figures down to 1% (see the demographics section where I have taken great trouble to include these in detailed form from the 2016 census) as collapsed (ie you must click on 'Religion' or 'Ancestry' to open the lists form OR neither should be present in the main infobox.

I would suggest having neither in the main infobox/sidebar and removing the existing relition data from the sidebar as it exists in the same form under the demographics section in the article. I hope there is no opposition to this?--StormcrowMithrandir (talk) 05:55, 15 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

As there is no opposition expressed I will trial removing religion from the main infobox. Please advise if anyone opposes or wishes to discuss further.--StormcrowMithrandir (talk) 05:38, 16 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I've reverted your removal for now. This article doesn't see a lot of activity during the week and barely any on weekends. That, and giving people less than 24 hours to make up their minds is inappropriate. Notifying people on a Saturday afternoon and expecting them to reply by Sunday afternoon just doesn't cut it. 72 hrs is usually a good minimum. Remember, Wikipedia is not working to a deadline. Things don't have to be done yesterday. Give people a reasonable amount of time to weigh in and if there is no opposition, then you can make the change. --AussieLegend (✉) 06:57, 16 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Quite right indeed, my apologies. I will leave it at least a week or two.--StormcrowMithrandir (talk) 07:53, 16 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The statistics provided by self-description in the Census seem dubious. For example, based on those figures, about 55% of Australians would be expected to believe in the existence of a personal God, an essential core belief of monotheistic religions such as Christianity and Islam. However, the National Church Life Survey in 2016 found only 24% of Australians held this belief. Jack N. Stock (talk) 04:43, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

That's probably because, contradictory though it sounds, if you ask the question "Do you believe there is a personal God?" (whatever 'personal' means in that context), there are a fair number of people who would say "No", even if, when asked "What is your religion?", they would answer "Christian", "Muslim" etc. From personal experience I know several members of my family who would put "Church of England", "Anglican", "Christian" etc. in the religion box on a census form or similar document, yet would answer "No" or "Probably not" to the direct "Is there a God" question. As I say, it's contradictory, but it's a real phenomenon, which is why you need to take great care when assessing surveys like this and consider exactly what was asked and its context. Incidentally, while I'm here, I'd leave religion and ethnicity out of the infobox - they are better discussed in the body, imo. -- Begoon 05:01, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Yes, that's what the Census and NCLS results seem to be saying. A "personal God" is a God who is a person, as opposed to an impersonal life force. For example, a couple might say "the universe brought us together" or someone might say "it was written in the stars", implying belief in some sort of influential spiritual force, but no conscious supreme being. Jack N. Stock (talk) 05:09, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Asking the obvious question, did the NCLS survey everyone in Australia? The census did so I'd trust those figures. You're always going to get a more accurate figure when you sample 100% than when you sample a tiny percentage. --AussieLegend (✉) 06:53, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I agree with the above few posts. Figures on religion in Australia are notoriously unreliable, and close to meaningless. It definitely doesn't belong in the Infobox, and I'd argue that most of what is in that text section of the article is misleading. The census question is optional, to start with, so drawing any conclusion is dangerous. HiLo48 (talk) 06:59, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The question may be optional but that's captured in the "unstated/unclear" figure. I don't have an issue with including religion but I don't think we need to go down to 1%. The infobox is only supposed to be an overview, like the lede but even briefer. I personally don't believe that religion is significant but a lot of people do so I see no reason not to include it but as it's an overview it should be limited to the most significant information which is 52.2% Christianity, 8.6% others, 30.1 % Irreligious and 9.1% Unstated/unclear. None of the "other" religions is more than 2.6%, which is not significant enough to include in the infobox but it can still be included in the religion section. --AussieLegend (✉) 07:11, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

We can perhaps include figures, but only if we include the precise wording of the question, and describe the responses accurately. The current wording doesn't do that IMHO. (It is better than it used to be.) For example. the wording "The remaining 9.6% of the population did not provide an adequate answer" presumably describes those who chose not to answer, PLUS those who stuffed up their response. Not a very helpful figure. It also concerns me that parents answering questions on behalf of their children will typically write their own religion in for their children. That delivers results that are simply wrong. HiLo48 (talk) 08:33, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

How about we keep the detail which I think is fundamental for the demographics section where it belongs as opposed to the infobox (and very important to a good proportion of the Australian and world population who may be reading) and if anything is less detailed than what you'd find in most country articles but simply keep it in the main body of text where it belongs and remove it from the infobox which is simply duplication and is always going to preclude any nuance given the position.--StormcrowMithrandir (talk) 08:59, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

We don't need the questions in the infobox. That's beyond the purpose of an infobox which is only supposed to include information in abbreviated form. If people need more information they go to the lede and if that doesn't cover what they need, then to the respective section in the body of the article. Or, they can go straight to the respective section. The 9.1% is not really useful but it gives a clear indication that 100% of the population has been captured. Essentially, nothing in the infobox is useful on its own and it's not supposed to be as it's just a bullet point summary, just usually without the bullets.

It also concerns me that parents answering questions on behalf of their children will typically write their own religion in for their children. - That's because, in the vast majority of cases, children share the religion of their parents and it's not wrong. Parents make a lot of decisions for their children, what clothes they wear, what food they eat, where they go to school and, yes, religion too.

remove it from the infobox which is simply duplication - By its very nature the entire infobox is duplication, as is the lede. Both are supposed to summarise significant aspects of the subject and they can't do that without duplicating some content. That's how we write articles. --AussieLegend (✉) 09:24, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Philosophically, it's nonsensical to claim that a new born baby has a religion. HiLo48 (talk) 00:17, 18 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

We're not talking philosophically, we're talking about cold hard data. --AussieLegend (✉) 05:34, 18 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'd call it very soft data. You cannot claim it is accurate or meaningful. HiLo48 (talk) 07:35, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'm afraid that it's your claim that is soft. The data is compiled by the ABS, the authoritative source for collection of Australian statistics, it's sourced from everyone in Australia at one time and it's an offence to not complete your Census form accurately. It's the most accurate data that you're ever going to get whether you like it or not. --AussieLegend (✉) 08:20, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I removed the religion part from the infobox, anticipating that as the eventual outcome, If there is some agreeable way of compressing the relevant section to an data statement, that can be included. cygnis insignis 10:28, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

And did that again. There is no consensus for inclusion, never was, just restores and invitations to wax lyrical about its problems. It is an infobox, I recognise that I am arguably falling afoul of infobox sanctions, but the onus is on consensus for inclusion as a first principle. cygnis insignis 12:26, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You now have 2 of the people who have opined in favour of removal reverting your premature action. Please respect the process and wait for consensus. "the onus is on consensus for inclusion as a first principle" is true when new material is added, not when retention is the status quo. There's absolutely no need to circumvent the discussion process, so please don't. Thank you. -- Begoon 12:40, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The inclusion of a particular field in the infobox code is a clear implication that there is already consensus for its use. That the data has been in the infobox for so long implies consensus for its inclusion, per WP:SILENCE so the argument that there was never consensus for its inclusion in the first place doesn't fly. Most every infobox includes something that had no consensus for its initial inclusion so it's really silly to argue that as justification for arbitrary removal. What we need now is consensus not to continue including it. --AussieLegend (✉) 13:08, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Australia/Popular_topics&action=history – cygnis insignis 14:00, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

What's your point? --AussieLegend (✉) 14:07, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I searched the archives on infobox and that subsection turned up, I linked the revision history. The point is whatever anyone wants to make of that in the context on infoboxes, contentiousness and consensus, there was too many points for me to list and I've left it to others to reflect on that. In short, infoboxes suck. What was an option becomes compulsory, I don't think a deviation from encyclopedic presentation should be compulsory for what I think are obvious reasons. cygnis insignis 14:44, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I still don't get it. What was the point of linking the revision history of that page? It's had 2 edits. How does that relate to a discussion on religion? If you look at the actual page, there are no religion discussions. As for infoboxes, whether or not you like them is irrelevant to the discussion. In any case, they are used in literally millions of articles and they're not going anywhere. --AussieLegend (✉) 17:18, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Smile and walk slowly away, AL. It's for the best, trust me. -- Begoon 17:41, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Cygnis, in answer to the question you removed, I meant that philosophical discussions about the merits or evils of infoboxes never go anywhere good, so let's stick to the simpler question of whether we have religion in this one. -- Begoon 17:57, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I removed it for what I thought was a good reason, is replying to that helpful. If this was regular content I could fix any concern, it is not and any objection requires debating the matter extensively (no joke, six months and still going). Not how wikipedia works where it does work, it is as simple as that, we are not Wikidata. Infobox guidelines preclude the inclusion of contentious items without consensus, for obvious reasons to any editor of content proper. cygnis insignis 18:05, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"for obvious reasons to any editor of content proper." ok. -- Begoon 18:10, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

To clarify my previous comments, my position is this is far too complicated to include in the infobox. In addition, some people might identify with a denomination but not identify as Christian (regardless of the denomination identifying as Christian), so aggregating 54.6% (or whatever) as "Christian" is inappropriate. Jack N. Stock (talk) 18:49, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"I'm Catholic but I'm not Christian, I'm a pretzel." --AussieLegend (✉) 19:17, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The ABS does the adding up for total percentage of Christians, but puzzlingly, comes up with a different number from the one we have in the article - 52%, compared with our claim of 54.6%. See https://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/mediareleasesbyReleaseDate/7E65A144540551D7CA258148000E2B85 What's going on? HiLo48 (talk) 00:14, 18 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I didn't do the religion chart so I will look at the 2016 census Community Profile xls for Australia on the weekend and work it out.--StormcrowMithrandir (talk) 03:39, 18 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Ahhh...... I now regret opening this can of worms. The discussion shouldn't be around whether these people actually believe in a God or whether parents are choosing for children, etc. This is official ABS census data from the entire population and whatever else anyone comes up with is not nearly as good. Every census, not just Australia does it this way (self description rather than some test of what they actually believe and with parents completing for minors). There is no question that the data which is a very important demographic statistic which exists in all country articles should be there and should include a figure for all major world religions including small ones like Judaism. The only question is whether it should be in the infobox as well as the relevant section in the article, to which I would say no (even ancestry/ethnicity doesn't appear in the infobox for the Australia article despite being in the infobox of basically all other country articles) so my position is that religion and other demographic statistics beyond population should not go in the infobox. In the event it is contentious though and there are people who feel strongly about keeping it, I feel there is no harm at all to keeping it there.--StormcrowMithrandir (talk) 03:36, 18 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

StormcrowMithrandir, Well, I don't think that's really a fair reflection of the discussion. There's a fair consensus (5:1 if you want to "count votes") not to have it in the infobox, as it stands at the moment, as far as I read it. The fact that the conversation got "muddied" a bit by some of us going off on a tangent about the quality/interpretation of the data and another tangent about the pros and cons of infoboxes in general shouldn't be allowed to obscure that. You certainly shouldn't "regret" starting the discussion. -- Begoon 04:25, 18 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

There is no question that the data which is a very important demographic statistic - Being a very important demographic statistic justifies inclusion in the lede and the infobox. "The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies."

There's a fair consensus (5:1 if you want to "count votes") - Except that we don't count votes, we look at the strength of the arguments and some of the exclude arguments amount to WP:IDONTLIKEIT while others are, as you said, going off on a tangent about the quality/interpretation of the data. This is an FA so we need a fairly strong consensus, maybe even an RfC. A weak "consensus" based on flawed arguments could result in loss of the FA status. Looking at other articles I see that United States (GA), United Kingdom and Canada, all prominent English speaking countries, include religion in the infobox, as do many other articles so why should Australia be inconsistent? --AussieLegend (✉) 05:34, 18 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"This is an FA so we need a fairly strong consensus, maybe even an RfC. A weak "consensus" based on flawed arguments could result in loss of the FA status." - That argument would, of course, be a little stronger if, at the time of the last FA review: Wikipedia:Featured article review/Australia/archive1 (29 June 2010), the infobox had, in fact, contained religion - but as far as I can see it didn't... I've personally no objection to your turning this into an RFC if you think it's merited, though. -- Begoon 06:38, 18 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

As there has been no further discussion I will do that. --AussieLegend (✉) 20:32, 22 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

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Should religion be removed from the infobox? --AussieLegend (✉) 20:33, 22 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• No - As stated above by another editor,[2] religion is a significant statistic about a country so deserves to be mentioned in the lede and in the infobox, which serves as a bullet point type addition to the lede. MOS:LEDE says, "The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies." Religion is generally included in infoboxes. See for example United States (GA), United Kingdom and Canada, all prominent English speaking countries, which include religion in the infobox, as do many other country articles. I'm not sure of the actual percentage but I have seen elswhere that 90% of readers don't go beyond the lede/infobox so removing it essentially hides the information from our readers or, at the very least, makes them have to search through the article for the information. There is no real reason to remove it in any case. --AussieLegend (✉) 20:32, 22 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
• yep cygnis insignis 20:41, 22 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
• As it stands currently, yes but a qualified yes only. I think they are a very important demographic statistic (one of the main three which will appear in any demographics section in world articles alongside language and ancestry/ethnicity, however all other prominent English speaking countries have both religion and ancestry/ethnicity in the infobox, so to be consistent if religion is there ancestry should be too in which case it would be a no - ie if we are going to include demographic statistics we could be more consistent about it - these would both have to be collapsible (as I believe religion is now) though because in order to include sufficient detail and not be misleading they would be include 8-15 items each and require collapsing not to be unwieldy.--StormcrowMithrandir (talk) 23:31, 22 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  The tune is familiar, can you whistle a few more bars :| cygnis insignis 07:45, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• Yes. First, let's clear up a couple of things: the existence of a field in an infobox's code in no way mandates, or even suggests, its use on every article using the infobox. More importantly, the usage or non-usage of that field in other articles has no real bearing or influence on whether or not it should be included here. I might argue against inclusion at the other articles - I might not - that's immaterial because here we decide what is best for this article.

  A lot is made in the two comments before mine of how "important" religious statistics are, yet the article itself says: "Australia has one of the lowest levels of religious adherence in the world". indicating that this "importance" is perhaps not shared by the subjects of this article. In any event, nobody is suggesting that the information is removed, just that it is better conveyed by explanatory prose in the article, rather than a survey result in an infobox without any nuance. A brief glance at an infobox containing roughly 50% "Christianity" does the complex subject no justice. It's rightly mentioned that a high proportion of readers might "go away" after finding that statistic, in which case we have served them badly, or even misled them into believing that it is a clear-cut issue and that is all they need to know about it.

  Above this section the argument was made that "This is an FA so we need a fairly strong consensus, maybe even an RfC" to somehow suggest that we mustn't remove religion from the infobox - however, as I pointed out there, at the time this article was last reviewed for FA, religion was not in the infobox - suggesting that, actually, it should only have been added by very strong subsequent consensus or RFC, which I don't really see anywhere. Anyway, my position is that religion in Australia is too nuanced to be adequately conveyed by the infobox and is better discussed in the article body. I don't believe we are "forced" by either the alleged "importance", or by what some other articles may or may not do, and that it is best removed from the infobox here.

  I could, I suppose, at a pinch, concede one alternative: I'm not personally convinced that anyone actually looking for details on religion in Australia would fail to find its section, but if there is a true concern shared by many here that a reader might go away "without finding" what they are looking for because they "expect it to be" in the infobox and don't look anywhere else, then place a simple link to the section there. I don't advocate this, but it remains as an option if purely "finding" the information is a true concern. Personally I consider the risk of the reader "going away" after seeing a bare, unexplained, undiscussed survey result and thinking that is all they "need to know" about religion in Australia to be greater.

  In any case, I favour removal of the percentage 'survey' figures from the infobox in favour of more detailed and nuanced treatment in the body. -- Begoon 00:28, 23 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• Yes. As per Begoon's very well considered comments above. Nickm57 (talk) 01:01, 23 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
• Remove – Per Australia § Religion, "Australia has no state religion". While it is appropriate to discuss the demographics in the article, it does not belong in the infobox. Mitch Ames (talk) 01:17, 23 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
• No. This is important, basic population information, which is why it's on the census in the first place. I can't see any valid reason for not having it there.Mark Marathon (talk) 01:22, 23 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  Here's a sample of what's "on the census in the first place": https://www.abs.gov.au/browse?opendocument&ref=topBar Religion is there in that list, it's the third note under "People & Communities". I do think, though, we'd have a rather large, unwieldy and potentially unusable infobox if we took "inclusion in the census" as a criterion guaranteeing inclusion in the infobox, based on what's listed there. Again, nobody is arguing for exclusion of information, merely removal of the bare, unexplained percentage 'survey' figures from the infobox in favour of the more detailed and nuanced treatment in the body. -- Begoon 01:45, 23 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

MarkMarathon, you are being a little rude in saying "I can't see any valid reason for not having it there". Several others have given reasons. You may disagree with their significance, but to call them invalid is unhelpful. And I shall expand on my reason to help you. The figures are misleading and inaccurate. We should not include misleading, inaccurate information in an Infobox. Fine in the text, if you want, where we can elaborate on issues such as it being a non-compulsory question, and parents presuming for their children. HiLo48 (talk) 03:00, 23 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This is important, ... which is why it's on the census... — It's not that important - it's the only question (other than Q60, permission to archive for 99 years) that is optional: 2016 sample census Mitch Ames (talk) 05:11, 23 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• 'Yes as per Begoons detailed analysis, Also the article states Australia has no state religion and so therefore it's rather pointless and unhelpful to have in the infobox. –Davey2010^Talk 21:12, 23 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
• Replace with National religion; for countries that have no official national religion, indicate "none"; for countries that have one, indicate what it is. bd2412 T 21:55, 23 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  No, because this, still, is incomplete, and suffers from the issue mentioned above that a high proportion of readers might "go away" after finding that bare statement, in which case we have served them badly, or even misled them into believing that it is a clear-cut issue and that is all they need to know about it. -- Begoon 22:41, 23 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• Yes, the religion should be removed from the infobox for the reasons discussed above. Simple percentages from an optional question in the Census are open to broad interpretation and could be misleading. Jack N. Stock (talk) 22:22, 23 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
• Keep this is basic information about demographics that would be included in all reputable encyclopedias. It's certainly a thing that needs to be in the infobox and allows for a quick comparison to the demographics of other countries (e.g. Canada, Nigeria, France, India, etc...). Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 23:48, 23 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  "this is basic information about demographics that would be included in all reputable encyclopedias." - then thank goodness nobody has suggested it should be excluded. -- Begoon 00:02, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• That's literally what the RFC is about. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 00:05, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  I think you should read it again - the RFC is about presentation of information, not its inclusion or exclusion. It is suggested that the bare, unexplained percentage 'survey' figures be removed from the infobox in favour of the more detailed and nuanced treatment in the body. There are several detailed arguments as to why this better and more informatively presents the data to a reader, but none that I can see arguing for its exclusion from the article. The question could possibly have been better worded, but that, in itself, is probably a good example of why detailed content is often preferable to a brief, nuance-free bullet-point. -- Begoon 00:20, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Summaries are important. And they are just as important in the case of Australia than it is in the case of Canada or Sudan or Russia or Bhutan or Brazil. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 01:06, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• Keep The precise numbers are not important, but the relative significance is. The top three numbers are 52, 30, 2.6. Australia would look very different if these proportions were in a different order or were different religions, so this provides valuable information in the infobox. --Scott Davis ^Talk 00:59, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

How is it significant and valuable, in what way would Australia "look different" if the numbers were? What sources confirm the weight attributed to this factoid? cygnis insignis 05:39, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The more people stress the "importance" and "significance" of this data the more convinced I become that including a bare, undiscussed, unexplained 'survey' result in the infobox is a real disservice to the reader. As has been pointed out, many readers may see this and "go away" deciding that is "all they need to know" about religion in Australia, never seeing the more nuanced explanation in the relevant section. If it's that important, surely we should do what we can to ensure that we convey a full, nuanced picture, rather than just a snippet which is open to all kinds of misinterpretation, such as those mentioned above with regards to the question being optional, with assumptions made for minors etc... Remember that nothing in this proposal suggests removing any information from the article, merely adjusting our presentation so that readers are more likely to find details of this "important" and "significant" topic and not just an incomplete 'snippet' or 'soundbyte' -- Begoon 06:08, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The counter argument is "makes them have to search through the article for the information", I suppose when two men at the bar are about to come to blows we are doing a disservice in making them learn something instead. cygnis insignis 06:44, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'm not personally convinced that readers coming to the article to read or find out about religion in Australia will be unable to find it, or even find it difficult, if it's not in the infobox - the table of contents is fairly prominent. However, in case there was a major, real concern among commenters here that that would be the case, I did touch on a possible solution to that in the fourth paragraph of my "Yes" comment above. I'm not convinced that should be necessary, but it's there to consider if there is substantial, genuine concern along those lines. -- Begoon 06:58, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Every well-developed article about countries has religious demographics in the infobox. Why should Australia be the exception? Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 07:22, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I don't know whether "Every well-developed article about countries has religious demographics in the infobox." or not - I haven't checked all of them (and I don't need to). I'll spare you the "otherstuff" link but, as I said above, what's in other articles has no real bearing or influence on whether or not it should be included here. Nobody is arguing for an 'exception' because there isn't any 'rule' to be 'excepted' from. I might argue against inclusion at the other articles - I might not - that's immaterial because here we decide what is best for this article. We did find out while talking about this that the featured article reviewers didn't note omission here as a problem, though, and they are quite big on "standards" and "consistency" I think... My arguments for leaving the bare survey results out of the infobox are all above, with those of others, so I won't repeat them again. Cheers. -- Begoon 07:32, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• Yes - The data is crap, because it's an optional question. No-one in their right mind could claim that all those who tick a particular religion are actually believers in that faith's god. All Australians know of other Australians who describe themselves as "cultural Christians", or "lapsed Catholics", or similar. We have no idea how such people answered the question. Because it's only the Infobox, there is no way we can explain these problems with the data. As for other articles on countries having the item, I don't really care. Chances are the same problems exist there. Every time I see a claim in Wikipedia about numbers of believers in a faith, anywhere, my eyes glaze over, and I skip that bit. It's a disaster area for Wikipedia. And don't try to tell me about "reliable sources, etc. We must always assess the quality of sources. If they cannot possibly deliver accurate, meaningful data, they are not reliable. HiLo48 (talk) 07:51, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Nobody cares what they actually believe in. I mean it is not for us to do an original research about this. We have an official census data and they have identified themselves as Christians, that's it. If we have another data that states different statistics we can put it in [note] next to the current official reliable census data. I think readers would want to see that information in the infobox.--SharabSalam (talk) 08:08, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

My point is that, despite being official census data, it's meaningless. Readers don't want meaningless data in the Infobox. (I'm a read, and I certainly don't.) And you know a lot of the respondents haven't just identified themselves as Christian. They have identified newborn babies as Christians, and that's simply wrong. Of what practical use is the data? HiLo48 (talk) 08:14, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The ABS doesn't think it's meaningless. As I've said above, The data is compiled by the ABS, the authoritative source for collection of Australian statistics, it's sourced from everyone in Australia at one time and it's an offence to not complete your Census form accurately. It's the most accurate data that you're ever going to get whether you like it or not. --AussieLegend (✉) 08:22, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"it's an offence to not complete your Census form accurately" How exactly does that work for an optional question? I'm genuinely asking. It's ok to refuse to answer, but it's an offence to say you're a Buddhist if you're not - or to tick the "no religion" box if you actually have a belief? Religion is a choice, so surely I could choose to say I believe in any religion I like just for the time it takes me to tick the box? I'm not asking this just to be difficult - I'm genuinely confused as to how this "offence" could be assessed or enforced for the particular question at issue here. -- Begoon 08:30, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Not really the forum for it, but almost everything on the census is a choice. I choose my sex, I choose how I go to work, I choose my charity involvement and so forth. It would be much harder to prove to a court that I drove my car to work on census day than to prove that I am an atheist. The latter is a matter of pubic record, the latter has no records. Ditto for my sex, my hobbies and so forth. Nonetheless it's an offence to answer any census question incorrectly. The chances of ever getting charged for answering a question incorrectly are neglible. You would need to loudly and publicly declare that you had done so, or encourage others to do so, to ever be charged. And that is exactly what these laws are likely meant to prevent. By making the act illegal, you also make it illegal to encourage others to do perform he act. Nonetheless this is the best information on the subject available. It's not our place as editors to decide that it is "crap".Mark Marathon (talk) 09:11, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

AussieLegend, what DOES the data mean? (And please stop copying and pasting your own replies.) HiLo48 (talk) 08:53, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It means that that is the religion that the people in Australia identified as. Just as the ancestry question means that that is the ancestry they identified as, and the occupation question means that that is the occupation they identified as and so forth. People may be lying on any of those questions just as easily as on the religion question. It's all about self-identification. Nonetheless this is the best, most reliable data available on Australian population statistics. If we want to declare that all census data is crap, then we can begin that discussion. But your idea that the religion data alone is crap is the worst sort of argument from ignorance and special pleading.Mark Marathon (talk)

How exactly does that work for an optional question? - That part was aimed more at HiLo48's claims about the quality of the data, more specifically that it's meaningless. It doesn't matter that the questional is optional. For the 90.3% of people who have answered the question it's required that their answer is correct.

it's an offence to say you're a Buddhist if you're not - or to tick the "no religion" box if you actually have a belief? - That's pretty much the case, but it applies to every question.

I'm genuinely confused as to how this "offence" could be assessed or enforced for the particular question at issue here. - Like everything else on the census it would be hard to enforce it but results of the entire census are based on the assumption that people are generally honest in their answers. The ABS does periodically verify census results from random households.

please stop copying and pasting your own replies. - Don't act as if that's something that I've done more than once. If you bother to look at the edit history you'll see that I answered your sill statement in the section above.[3] I then realised you'd made a similar claim here to which the response was almost equally valid and there was no point completely rewriting the response. --AussieLegend (✉) 11:11, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

When you say "It means that that is the religion that the people in Australia identified as", you have highlighted a fundamental problem. When they write an occupation for their children, they will not write the same as for for themselves. They will write "student", or whatever. They will probably tell the truth. But on religion, they write what they are, and it's a lie. This makes the data meaningless. HiLo48 (talk) 02:29, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It's not (necessarily) a lie (a deliberate untruth). Most Christians practise infant baptism, by which the child is deemed - by the parents and the Church - to become a member of that Church/religion. It's no different to parents (who've immigrated from elsewhere) applying for citizenship on behalf of their infant child. Just because the child is not old enough to make a decision doesn't mean that parents' decision is not accepted by the Church/religion/community. The child may later choose to reject the religion, but until they do, they are deemed - by the religious community and the Bureau of Statistics - to be a member of that religion. Mitch Ames (talk) 03:56, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Nah. The question on the census does not ask about whether someone is baptised or not. Many people who were baptised near birth, such as me, would have written "No religion". This isn't about baptism. And that's the problem. Figures in an Infobox are not explained. They can't be. That's the point. If they need explanation, they don't belong in the Infobox. HiLo48 (talk) 07:43, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

How you answered the question about yourself is irrelevant to the issue of whether a parent lies when answering on behalf of of someone else (their child). While it's true that the census question is not about baptism, my point stands. A baptised child - of whom there are likely to be a significant number - is considered by the parents and the Church community to be a Christian. You, I and Richard Dawkins may consider the parents delusional, but they are not lying. Mitch Ames (talk) 09:47, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Stop accusing me of things I have never said. At no point did I call anyone delusional. You are becoming abusive, and misrepresenting me, and that never helps. Obviously the point about how I answer the question IS relevant. It highlights that being baptised has no clear relationship to how one answers the question. And obviously I am not alone. Baptism is a red herring, and again, simply highlights that the meaning of the data is unclear. HiLo48 (talk) 10:40, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I retract any implication that you said or thought anyone was delusional. I maintain my original assertion that parents of baptised infants or young children are not lying when they answer for the child and declare the child to be Christian. Those parents' truthfulness, or otherwise, is independent of how you answered the question for yourself. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:01, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

HiLo48, your argument is nonsense, if someone says support the Melbourne Football Club, they are a supporter. They don’t have to be a member, they don’t need to own a red and blue scarf, they don’t need to go to games, they don’t even need to watch the games on tv or listen on the radio, they may just like to hear that Melbourne are winning (as uncommon as that is). If someone says they are Catholic they don’t need to eat fish on Fridays or attend a church weekly to be such. The ABS data is some of the best in the world. Cavalryman V31 (talk) 07:13, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Not nonsense at all. To start with, you have ignored my point about children. And there are two distinct levels of supporting. As well as what you describe, one can choose to be a Melbourne Football Club member. Now, those people can be counted, quite accurately. Religion is very different from that. HiLo48 (talk) 07:38, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• No. Keep the rough statistic. Similar arguments might be made against the census in other countries, but they are still good for rough approximations. Let those who are deeply interested read the article to learn about the special complexity of the question for Australians. Jzsj (talk) 09:22, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Please see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. And if we do have a "special complexity" that cannot be expressed in an Infobox, we must not include it. HiLo48 (talk) 02:32, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• No, religion says something about the history of a country, about its culture, international and national politics, beliefs and practices. I'd argue religion is that essential, that if you were to remove it you might just as well remove the entire infobox.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 13:49, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Absolute nonsense. Everything else is more meaningful. HiLo48 (talk) 02:32, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Says who? Do you really think date format is more important? Cavalryman V31 (talk) 07:13, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Sorry. I don't know what you mean. HiLo48 (talk) 07:45, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Then I suggest you actually look at the infobox that is the subject of this RfC. Cavalryman V31 (talk) 08:58, 25 June 2019 (UTC).Reply[reply]

• No, retain in the infobox, it gives the reader a good initial snapshot of beliefs of the country. Cavalryman V31 (talk) 18:38, 24 June 2019 (UTC).Reply[reply]

No it doesn't. It's full of lies about all the children in Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 02:32, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

So who do you believe does speak for all the children in Australia? Cavalryman V31 (talk) 07:13, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Nobody. HiLo48 (talk) 07:46, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

That is not an optional question on belief, it's The Wiggles. cygnis insignis 07:31, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Remove in all country article as with ethnic groups and languages....really no need to have this data in most cases 3 times (we normally have prose and a chart) ..no need for a 3rd less accessible version.--Moxy 🍁 02:54, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• yes remove Australia is a secular state and people are free to practice any religion within the confines of Australian law[4] as per section 116 of the constitution therefore the inclusion in the info is misleading.. the infor should actually just say secular state and the demographics deal nuances. Gnangarra 11:43, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
• Yes, remove per Gnangarra. This field suggests Australia has established religions or similar, when it doesn't. It also suggests that Australia is divided by religion, when there's lots of data which shows that most religious Australians are tolerant of other faiths and religion is generally not a major issue in Australian public life. Nick-D (talk) 11:46, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
• No I have seen most of the arguments here that support removing the religion section in the infobox but I don't find them convencing, I'm sorry. The census data from Australian government is reliable and we should trust it. The argument that newborn babies religion is chosen by their parents is not a reason for removing the section. If we have reliable sources that explicitly state that the Australian census data about religion includes newborn babies who their parents choose their religion we can add it as a note in the section. That's a better solution than removing the section from the infobox. In my opinion the removal is the worst solution.

Moxy says that we should remove the religion section from all infoboxes of countries. Yea, that might be a good proposal but this RfC here isn't going to establish that. We can ask for this in template_talk:infobox country. However, I still think the religion section in the infobox is useful and benefits the reader. Again if there is a sourced controversy about the religion census data in Australia we can mention it in the infobox.--SharabSalam (talk) 12:11, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"if there is a sourced controversy about the religion census data in Australia we can mention it in the infobox" How exactly do you propose we do that without making the entry in the infobox huge and unwieldy? I did mention above, and I'll repeat here, that if there is a true concern shared by many here that a reader might go away "without finding" what they are looking for because they "expect it to be" in the infobox and don't look anywhere else, then we could place a simple link to the Religion section there. I don't advocate this, but it remains as an option if purely "finding" the information is a true concern. Personally I consider the risk of the reader "going away" after seeing a bare, unexplained, undiscussed survey result and thinking that is all they "need to know" about religion in Australia to be greater. -- Begoon 12:25, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

... reliable sources that explicitly state that the Australian census data about religion includes newborn babies who their parents choose their religion — The ABS says

... rates of having no religion are highest for babies, but drop substantially for children aged 5 to 14. It is quite likely that children under 15 do not answer the question on religion for themselves, so these rates may reflect their parents' views.

The second sentence says that parents are probably answering for their children, but the first sentence (and the remainder of that section of the page) suggests that at least some religious parents are not declaring that the child's religion is the same as their own. This is not definite enough to count as a non-OR RS, but it is interesting, given previous comments about parents choosing their children's religion. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:09, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

How exactly do you propose we do that without making the entry in the infobox huge and unwieldy? Notes, like the one that is in the infobox now and the notes we have for the the anthem, language and time zones. It's not rocket science. Note though, SharabSalam said "sourced" controversy. At the moment the only controversy is HiLo48's opinions and that doesn't constitute a source. --AussieLegend (✉) 16:38, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Begoon: ...the risk of the reader "going away" after seeing a bare, unexplained, undiscussed survey result and thinking that is all they "need to know" about religion in Australia to be greater. I am having trouble imagining questions that I would think are satisfied by the infobox but really aren't. If I'm looking for details about religion, the infobox is not going to satisfy me, and it does not tell me details about anything else either. It's a quick overview in a standardised format of some key facts. If you have an issue with it displaying that 52.1% of Australians professed to be Christians in 2016, then raise a proposal that quantities in infoboxes should be to one significant figure (50%, i.e. about half) instead of three significant figures. The way certain politicians carry on about being taken over by Islam, the infobox stats either now or rounded to 1SF clearly would show that 50% Christian, 30% irreligious, 10% not stated, 3% Islam, 2% Buddhist, 2% Hindu show it has not happened, and one would need details of trend to see if it is happening (but it clearly has a long way to go). If the state infoboxes also had religion, it would be easy to see if there was sgnificant regional variation from the norm (e.g. Indonesia 87.2% Islam, 9.9% Christianity compared to West Papua (province) 53.77% Protestant, 38.4% Islam and 7.03% Catholic). --Scott Davis ^Talk 04:23, 26 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"If you have an issue with it displaying that 52.1% of Australians professed to be Christians in 2016..." I certainly do, and if you had been paying attention you would know what it is. It is simply not true to say that 52.1% of Australians professed to be Christians in 2016. Chances are that nobody under the age of ten "professed" to be anything. Someone else did the professing for them. If the number is the conclusion you drew from the raw numbers, it's wrong. Thank you for highlighting why it shouldn't be in the Infobox. HiLo48 (talk) 08:40, 26 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@HiLo48: The question is about "religion", not "faith". If the kid goes to church every Sunday, it is religious, whatever reason it had for going ("Mum wouldn't let me stay at home alone"). Australia being over 50% Christian and less than 3% Muslim means that on average, the country is quite different than Iran (Islam) or North Korea (no religion). It may also be different to the USA (73% Christian, 21% Unaffiliated and only 0.8% Muslim. If you want to argue that people under 14 are by definition irreligious, then you could argue for the age profile to be added to the infobox for the main article instead of finding that 17.75% of the population was aged 0-14 years in the text of a subsidiary page. I don't think the proportion of children would change the relative proportions of the religions by that much, which is what I expect to find from the infobox. --Scott Davis ^Talk 11:23, 26 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Yet again, the response I get involves considerable "interpretation", or maybe prespctive - religion vs faith, etc. You also suggest adding some clarification - adding the age profile. No. That's not what the Infobox is about. It should provide simple, accurate information at a glance, and for religion, it cannot. HiLo48 (talk) 11:30, 26 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The uncomplicated, no-interpretation version is to include the census figures to the sourced level of precision (3 significant figures) and cite it with no interpretation. It was you that brought up the idea that children might not have filled in their own forms honestly. Most of the alleged "complications" are attempts to find a compromise that you would accept. --Scott Davis ^Talk 12:26, 26 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Scott, I get the distinct impression you are mocking my comments, while also misrepresenting them. Completely unhelpful. When people disagreeing with me go down a path like that, I know I have made points they cannot refute logically and politely. Newborn babies simply do not fill in their own forms. Parents do it for them. And we cannot know what they write for their children's religion, but we can guess that in most cases it will be what the parents are. Whatever, it creates imprecise data. And any proposed "complication" is firstly, acknowledgment that I have a point, and secondly, a demonstration that it doesn't belong in an Infobox because it needs further explanation. HiLo48 (talk) 08:16, 27 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Virtually everything in an infobox needs further explanation. Ask most people what Gini is and they'll probably ask you if she was in the Harry Potter movies. --AussieLegend (✉) 13:28, 27 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

OK. I'll come clean. I've thought for some time that most Infoboxes should be abolished entirely, and you've just helped to reinforce that view. HiLo48 (talk) 10:21, 28 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Arguably misuse of a primary source. The debate on how a compromised version can be displayed in the infobox is not the question, that is "Should religion be removed from the infobox?", and is a perpetual hazard of the use of infoboxes: Inclusion is resolved by debate, not by the processes encyclopedic presentation of facts using sources and sentences. cygnis insignis 16:28, 26 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It looks like WP:PRIMARY specifically allows for us to report the uninterpreted results from the census, but that we have to have reliable secondary sources to interpret it such as determining whether children can have a religion, or exactly who filled in the forms. If you desperately require a secondary source to say that a bit over half of the Australian population self-identify as Christian, then perhaps The Guardian article on the results will satisfy you? If you use the same reference for a sentence elsewhere in the article that the proportion has declined from 88.2% in 1966, then anyone who clicked on the footnote marker will also see that the same reference is used elsewhere in the article and if they are interested enough, can easily click to see where. --Scott Davis ^Talk 03:58, 27 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• @SharabSalam: how more definitive can Section 116 of the Australian Constitution be, the infobox should have Secular with it linked directly to the appropriate section. Gnangarra 11:02, 26 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • OK, who's going to bring up the Magna Carta? I assume that's next. --AussieLegend (✉) 11:45, 26 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
• Re Australia is a secular state if this is the issue, then have |state_religion=Secular or something. Or get infobox country to display "Religious makeup/composition" instead of simply "Religion". Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 15:30, 26 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Secularity is not a religion. Mitch Ames (talk) 00:24, 27 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

My view is that a high proportion of Australians are actually Apatheists, and while I don't expect that to appear in the Infobox, maybe something else from the article should be there, the fact that "only 8.8% of Australians attended church on a weekly basis". HiLo48 (talk) 08:21, 27 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

How is it that I did not know that term, it is a subject I'm very interested in. cygnis insignis 08:41, 27 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Yes. A great word, isn't it? And naturally, we have an article on it. We should make more use of it. HiLo48 (talk) 09:38, 27 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I agree that many Australians are apatheists. They check "Christian" or "Catholic" on the census, but they don't own a Bible, only go to church if they are invited to a wedding, and may not believe there is a Creator. Jack N. Stock (talk) 15:42, 27 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• Keep, agree with Headbombs comment just above Atlantic306 (talk) 21:30, 26 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
• No I think this demographic statistic is germane. Chris Troutman (talk) 00:44, 28 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You're kidding, surely. Up above we have probably a dozen different interpretations of the data, and as many different suggestions on how to remove the obvious possible confusion for the reader. HiLo48 (talk) 10:19, 28 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• Comment So there was an RFC about religion in country infoboxes. Consensus determined the religion parameter is only to be included in this infobox [if and only if] that nation's government has an official, definite state religion. (It's from 2015, but as far as I know it hasn't been superseded.) Colin M (talk) 04:44, 29 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This looks like the winner. HiLo48 (talk) 05:20, 29 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Not really. The quote above is 24 words cherry-picked from a 500 word closing summary. --AussieLegend (✉) 05:39, 29 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"Cherry-picked" makes the (rather uncharitable) implication that I'm coming at this with an agenda. I am not. I haven't !voted, because I'm personally undecided at this point. I chose those words because I thought they were the ones most relevant to this question. I could have also quoted the closer's first two sentences: Consensus in this request for comment has determined several things. Firstly, there is overwhelming agreement that the religion parameter is not to be used in ((infobox country)) if the only reasonable value for that parameter is "none", "atheist," "none official," "secular state," or variations thereof. Which basically communicates the same thing, but less pithily. If you have an interpretation of those 500 words such that they're consistent with keeping the religion parameter, I'd be genuinely interested in hearing it. Colin M (talk) 06:29, 29 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It is not clear for me what was the proposal of that RfC. Was it about the religion of the state itself? e.g "Yemen"="Muslim country", or is it about the demographic statistical data about the religion in the society of the State/Nation. It presents the argument of that if the individual religion in BLP article is atheist or none religious we should not give any value to the religion parameter, that makes me feel that the proposal was to remove the religion of the state itself if the state is secular/atheist or whatever. I always thought that the parameter |religion= in the infobox country is about the religion of the people of the state not about the state religion. The participants in that RfC seem to have interpreted the proposal in different ways.--SharabSalam (talk) 07:52, 29 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'm sorry if "cherry-picked" was taken the wrong way. It was used to point out that 24 words from the middle of a complex 500-word summary had been chosen. You really need to read the whole summary and the RfC along with the associated discussions to work out what was actually going on. Even then, it's as clear as mud as SharabSalam has indicated. --AussieLegend (✉) 08:49, 29 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

In my understanding, the question of the RfC was what should the value of the 'religion' parameter be for nations with no official religion. Pinging @Guy Macon and Ceradon: as nominator and closer, respectively, in case they want to chime in (though the latter seems to be inactive). Colin M (talk) 17:00, 29 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This page is not a forum for general discussion about Australia. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Australia at the Reference desk.

((geodata-check))

The following coordinate fixes are needed for

—117.20.112.15 (talk) 06:17, 3 May 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'm assuming that the above is a spurious entry because the coordinates for " " are fine. --AussieLegend (✉) 07:04, 3 May 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I note that under language it states "Australia has a sign language known as Auslan, which is the main language of about 5,500 deaf people."

Considering the population of Australia, 5,500 deaf people seemed too small a number. The reference 283 does not link to a specific page at the Australian Bureau of Statistics website any more and redirects to another page. This is the current reference. (http://www.censusdata.abs.gov.au/ABSNavigation/prenav/ViewData?action=404&documentproductno=0&documenttype=Details&order=1&tabname=Details&areacode=0&issue=2006&producttype=Census%20Tables&javascript=true&textversion=false&navmapdisplayed=true&breadcrumb=POTLD&&collection=Census&period=2006&productlabel=Language%20Spoken%20at%20Home%20(full%20classification%20list)%20by%20Sex&producttype=Census%20Tables&method=Place%20of%20Usual%20Residence&topic=Language&)

The Australian Network on Disability states on their webpage that there are 30,000 people who use Auslan (https://www.and.org.au/pages/disability-statistics.html) "1 in 6 Australians are affected by hearing loss. There are approximately 30,000 Deaf Auslan users with total hearing loss." The Australian Network on Disability obtained their data from 'Listen Hear! The economic impact and cost of hearing loss in Australia' 2006, Access Economics, viewed 24 February 2017

I would suggest that this needs to be updated. I don't have the skills to update this information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tzali (talk • contribs)

I've updated the reference and the figure to the 2016 Census number, which was 10,112. --Canley (talk) 05:56, 12 May 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The source is now outdated. Change "The Super Pit gold mine in Kalgoorlie, Western Australia, is the nation's largest open cut mine." to "The Super Pit gold mine in Kalgoorlie, Western Australia, is the nation's second largest open cut mine." Although, it may be less import as a source due to this update.

I've updated the image, caption and source to refer to Boddington Gold Mine as the largest. --Canley (talk) 07:34, 13 May 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change "Indigenous Australians inhabited the continent for about 60,000 years prior to European discovery" to "Indigenous Australians inhabited the continent for about 65,000 years prior to European discovery."

This is supported by these articles, all of which come from reputable sources.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2017-07-20/aboriginal-shelter-pushes-human-history-back-to-65,000-years/8719314

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/jul/19/dig-finds-evidence-of-aboriginal-habitation-up-to-80000-years-ago

https://www.nma.gov.au/defining-moments/resources/evidence-of-first-peoples

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/19/science/humans-reached-australia-aboriginal-65000-years.html GrecoSerbHunk (talk) 04:58, 16 May 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

 Done NiciVampireHeart 18:16, 21 May 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The census figures do not include Aborigines. What percent are they? 37.99.48.111 (talk) 10:04, 8 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I think you will find what you're after in the fourth paragraph of the Demographics section. HiLo48 (talk) 10:49, 8 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

British naval officer and author Gavin Menzies argues that the Chinese, through naval voyages like those of Zheng He of the Ming dynasty, arrived on the shores of Australia in 1422.^[1] British journalist Martin Jacques mentions this as well.^[2][3] Moreover, to quote from The Age:

Zheng's vice-admirals, Hong Bao and Zhou Man, beat Cook by almost 350 years. The two men, both eunuchs (as was the custom for captains), arrived in Australia in 1422 - Hong on the west coast, Zhou on the east - and spent several months exploring, landing in several places. Their ships were massive - 122 metres long by 27 metres wide - not that much smaller than a modern aircraft carrier and absolute giants compared with those used by Columbus about 70 years later. The captains navigated by the stars. Each ship had up to 1000 sailors.^[4]

Archaeological evidence suggesting early Chinese interaction has also been found, including Chinese coins and items imported from East Africa, other areas of Zheng He's voyages.^[5] However this is contested.^{[citation needed]} -- User:Alexkyoung —Preceding undated comment added 01:05, 13 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

No need for non academic junk ....Historians have rejected these theories and assertions outright ^{[6][7][8][9][10][11]} and have categorised this amateur work as pseudohistory.^[12][13][14] --Moxy 🍁 04:04, 13 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

WP:FRINGE and WP:UNDUE. It's a non-mainstream theory so giving it an entire section in this article is way too much. It could possibly be mentioned in Prehistory of Australia#Contact outside Australia. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 05:19, 13 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Why would we add Pseudohistory claim with ZERO proof or academic backing to a history article?--Moxy 🍁 06:28, 13 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

These claims do not belong anywhere in Wikipedia's coverage of Australia's history, as they are WP:FRINGE theories not endorsed by any serious historian. Menzies also believes that Atlantis was real and visited North America... [5] Nick-D (talk) 08:41, 13 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Agreed. And The Age article is being misrepresented in the selective quote used above. Nickm57 (talk) 09:10, 13 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Martin Jacques thought it was worth mentioning, and he does not label Menzies with any of those strong weasel words, but simply reports what others have said. Same with The Age and the Washington Post. If Menzies is a 'pseudohistorian' then why would any sane person allow his book to be published and then marketed? His book is still on Amazon, and people still buy it. I personally may or may not agree with Menzies myself, but that does not matter, as the above passage is just reporting what others have said. However, it is still speculation, well-cited by sources, and the information should be published for the benefit future readers. One day, some historian or archaeologist may read this and decide to verify or refute these claims even further. It does not hurt to publish.

On the references Moxy used: 6 is missing, the reliability of 7 and 8 are questionable; after all why was the original website taken down? 9 is a book review, from a not so reputable source, and is invariably pov; 10 Finlay 2004 does not link anywhere, and specification is needed; these pseudosources are not worth including.

11-14 may be worth including in the above.

Please make an effort to educate yourself about WP policies - particularly some of those listed above by other editors. Just because you find Menzies theories interesting doesn’t mean it’s appropriate in this collaborative project - which has its own rules and policies. A personal blog is not a bad alternative if you want to write without a policy framework like this project has. Nickm57 (talk) 15:41, 13 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I have, but your points do not address any of the points I brought up. Please make an effort to educate yourself about how to make a constructive intellectual counterargument rather than personally attacking others. I am waiting for a response to these claims. According to the BRD cycle, I can make a new bold edit, especially if nobody has addressed these concerns.

Exactly where have I attacked you personally? I suggest a way forward is for you to a) use indenting b) sign all your posts c) put “your points” exactly as that - just points you wish to include to improve the article d) don’t jump off onto people’s talk pages. This is the place for your ideas. And e) Don’t keep adding great slabs of text here it’s so unwieldy.

and yes - you are going to have to wait for considered responses to your further ideas from other editors. Nickm57 (talk) 16:04, 13 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

New proposal

British naval officer and author Gavin Menzies argues that the Chinese, through naval voyages like those of Zheng He of the Ming dynasty, arrived on the shores of Australia in 1422.^[1] British journalist Martin Jacques mentions this as well.^[2][3] Moreover, to quote from The Age:

Menzies claims Zheng's vice-admirals, Hong Bao and Zhou Man, beat Cook by almost 350 years. The two men, both eunuchs (as was the custom for captains), arrived in Australia in 1422 - Hong on the west coast, Zhou on the east - and spent several months exploring, landing in several places. Their ships were massive - 122 metres long by 27 metres wide - not that much smaller than a modern aircraft carrier and absolute giants compared with those used by Columbus about 70 years later. The captains navigated by the stars. Each ship had up to 1000 sailors.^[4]

Archaeological evidence suggesting early Chinese interaction has also been found, including Chinese coins and items imported from East Africa, other areas of Zheng He's voyages.^[5]

However this is contested, and some have rejected Menzies' claims.^[6][7][8][9]

Alexkyoung (talk) 14:56, 13 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I think we should review other edits see if this is a problem in others areas. --Moxy 🍁 16:12, 13 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Moreover, The Age says that Menzies' book was even a best-seller, stimulating heated academic debate over the issue. This is exactly the kind of stuff that needs to be put on wikipedia, in this case not whether Menzies is right or not but the fact that there is an academic controversy in the first place. The Altaic languages are also widely discredited by linguistic scholars, but it has a whole wikipedia article dedicated to it. Wikipedia is a place to promote these kinds of intellectual discussions and thoughts, not a place to tailor or edit history to one's own fantasies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexkyoung (talk • contribs) 15:06, 13 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

According to the BRD cycle,

Cycle. To avoid bogging down in discussion, when you have a better understanding of the reverter's concerns, you may attempt a new edit that reasonably addresses some aspect of those concerns. You can try this even if the discussion has not reached an explicit conclusion.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexkyoung (talk • contribs) 15:37, 13 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

While most editors try to follow most of WP:BRD, in practice if you continue to make edits to an article after your first edits have been opposed your actions will be more likely seen as edit-warring and there is a good chance you will end up blocked. See WP:EDITCONSENSUS. --AussieLegend (✉) 17:37, 13 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Just to add, edit warring in a high profile featured article like this one is taken particularly seriously, especially when there's also a clear consensus in a talk page discussion that the material should not be included. Wikilawyering about this make it that much worse again. Nick-D (talk) 09:57, 14 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I note the articles for most countries have both religion and ethnicity in the main infobox/sidebar. Some of these are expanded by default while some are collapsed and you need to click on them to expand the list.

My preference is for neither religion or ethnicity (or ancestry for Australia, given this is the question in the Australian census) to be listed in the main infobox as they are relatively complex topics and I believe the infobox is for simpler statitics.

Nonetheless to be consistent, I believe the main infobox should either incorporate both the religion and ancestry figures down to 1% (see the demographics section where I have taken great trouble to include these in detailed form from the 2016 census) as collapsed (ie you must click on 'Religion' or 'Ancestry' to open the lists form OR neither should be present in the main infobox.

I would suggest having neither in the main infobox/sidebar and removing the existing relition data from the sidebar as it exists in the same form under the demographics section in the article. I hope there is no opposition to this?--StormcrowMithrandir (talk) 05:55, 15 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

As there is no opposition expressed I will trial removing religion from the main infobox. Please advise if anyone opposes or wishes to discuss further.--StormcrowMithrandir (talk) 05:38, 16 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I've reverted your removal for now. This article doesn't see a lot of activity during the week and barely any on weekends. That, and giving people less than 24 hours to make up their minds is inappropriate. Notifying people on a Saturday afternoon and expecting them to reply by Sunday afternoon just doesn't cut it. 72 hrs is usually a good minimum. Remember, Wikipedia is not working to a deadline. Things don't have to be done yesterday. Give people a reasonable amount of time to weigh in and if there is no opposition, then you can make the change. --AussieLegend (✉) 06:57, 16 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Quite right indeed, my apologies. I will leave it at least a week or two.--StormcrowMithrandir (talk) 07:53, 16 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The statistics provided by self-description in the Census seem dubious. For example, based on those figures, about 55% of Australians would be expected to believe in the existence of a personal God, an essential core belief of monotheistic religions such as Christianity and Islam. However, the National Church Life Survey in 2016 found only 24% of Australians held this belief. Jack N. Stock (talk) 04:43, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

That's probably because, contradictory though it sounds, if you ask the question "Do you believe there is a personal God?" (whatever 'personal' means in that context), there are a fair number of people who would say "No", even if, when asked "What is your religion?", they would answer "Christian", "Muslim" etc. From personal experience I know several members of my family who would put "Church of England", "Anglican", "Christian" etc. in the religion box on a census form or similar document, yet would answer "No" or "Probably not" to the direct "Is there a God" question. As I say, it's contradictory, but it's a real phenomenon, which is why you need to take great care when assessing surveys like this and consider exactly what was asked and its context. Incidentally, while I'm here, I'd leave religion and ethnicity out of the infobox - they are better discussed in the body, imo. -- Begoon 05:01, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Yes, that's what the Census and NCLS results seem to be saying. A "personal God" is a God who is a person, as opposed to an impersonal life force. For example, a couple might say "the universe brought us together" or someone might say "it was written in the stars", implying belief in some sort of influential spiritual force, but no conscious supreme being. Jack N. Stock (talk) 05:09, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Asking the obvious question, did the NCLS survey everyone in Australia? The census did so I'd trust those figures. You're always going to get a more accurate figure when you sample 100% than when you sample a tiny percentage. --AussieLegend (✉) 06:53, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I agree with the above few posts. Figures on religion in Australia are notoriously unreliable, and close to meaningless. It definitely doesn't belong in the Infobox, and I'd argue that most of what is in that text section of the article is misleading. The census question is optional, to start with, so drawing any conclusion is dangerous. HiLo48 (talk) 06:59, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The question may be optional but that's captured in the "unstated/unclear" figure. I don't have an issue with including religion but I don't think we need to go down to 1%. The infobox is only supposed to be an overview, like the lede but even briefer. I personally don't believe that religion is significant but a lot of people do so I see no reason not to include it but as it's an overview it should be limited to the most significant information which is 52.2% Christianity, 8.6% others, 30.1 % Irreligious and 9.1% Unstated/unclear. None of the "other" religions is more than 2.6%, which is not significant enough to include in the infobox but it can still be included in the religion section. --AussieLegend (✉) 07:11, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

We can perhaps include figures, but only if we include the precise wording of the question, and describe the responses accurately. The current wording doesn't do that IMHO. (It is better than it used to be.) For example. the wording "The remaining 9.6% of the population did not provide an adequate answer" presumably describes those who chose not to answer, PLUS those who stuffed up their response. Not a very helpful figure. It also concerns me that parents answering questions on behalf of their children will typically write their own religion in for their children. That delivers results that are simply wrong. HiLo48 (talk) 08:33, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

How about we keep the detail which I think is fundamental for the demographics section where it belongs as opposed to the infobox (and very important to a good proportion of the Australian and world population who may be reading) and if anything is less detailed than what you'd find in most country articles but simply keep it in the main body of text where it belongs and remove it from the infobox which is simply duplication and is always going to preclude any nuance given the position.--StormcrowMithrandir (talk) 08:59, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

We don't need the questions in the infobox. That's beyond the purpose of an infobox which is only supposed to include information in abbreviated form. If people need more information they go to the lede and if that doesn't cover what they need, then to the respective section in the body of the article. Or, they can go straight to the respective section. The 9.1% is not really useful but it gives a clear indication that 100% of the population has been captured. Essentially, nothing in the infobox is useful on its own and it's not supposed to be as it's just a bullet point summary, just usually without the bullets.

It also concerns me that parents answering questions on behalf of their children will typically write their own religion in for their children. - That's because, in the vast majority of cases, children share the religion of their parents and it's not wrong. Parents make a lot of decisions for their children, what clothes they wear, what food they eat, where they go to school and, yes, religion too.

remove it from the infobox which is simply duplication - By its very nature the entire infobox is duplication, as is the lede. Both are supposed to summarise significant aspects of the subject and they can't do that without duplicating some content. That's how we write articles. --AussieLegend (✉) 09:24, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Philosophically, it's nonsensical to claim that a new born baby has a religion. HiLo48 (talk) 00:17, 18 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

We're not talking philosophically, we're talking about cold hard data. --AussieLegend (✉) 05:34, 18 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'd call it very soft data. You cannot claim it is accurate or meaningful. HiLo48 (talk) 07:35, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'm afraid that it's your claim that is soft. The data is compiled by the ABS, the authoritative source for collection of Australian statistics, it's sourced from everyone in Australia at one time and it's an offence to not complete your Census form accurately. It's the most accurate data that you're ever going to get whether you like it or not. --AussieLegend (✉) 08:20, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I removed the religion part from the infobox, anticipating that as the eventual outcome, If there is some agreeable way of compressing the relevant section to an data statement, that can be included. cygnis insignis 10:28, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

And did that again. There is no consensus for inclusion, never was, just restores and invitations to wax lyrical about its problems. It is an infobox, I recognise that I am arguably falling afoul of infobox sanctions, but the onus is on consensus for inclusion as a first principle. cygnis insignis 12:26, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You now have 2 of the people who have opined in favour of removal reverting your premature action. Please respect the process and wait for consensus. "the onus is on consensus for inclusion as a first principle" is true when new material is added, not when retention is the status quo. There's absolutely no need to circumvent the discussion process, so please don't. Thank you. -- Begoon 12:40, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The inclusion of a particular field in the infobox code is a clear implication that there is already consensus for its use. That the data has been in the infobox for so long implies consensus for its inclusion, per WP:SILENCE so the argument that there was never consensus for its inclusion in the first place doesn't fly. Most every infobox includes something that had no consensus for its initial inclusion so it's really silly to argue that as justification for arbitrary removal. What we need now is consensus not to continue including it. --AussieLegend (✉) 13:08, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Australia/Popular_topics&action=history – cygnis insignis 14:00, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

What's your point? --AussieLegend (✉) 14:07, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I searched the archives on infobox and that subsection turned up, I linked the revision history. The point is whatever anyone wants to make of that in the context on infoboxes, contentiousness and consensus, there was too many points for me to list and I've left it to others to reflect on that. In short, infoboxes suck. What was an option becomes compulsory, I don't think a deviation from encyclopedic presentation should be compulsory for what I think are obvious reasons. cygnis insignis 14:44, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I still don't get it. What was the point of linking the revision history of that page? It's had 2 edits. How does that relate to a discussion on religion? If you look at the actual page, there are no religion discussions. As for infoboxes, whether or not you like them is irrelevant to the discussion. In any case, they are used in literally millions of articles and they're not going anywhere. --AussieLegend (✉) 17:18, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Smile and walk slowly away, AL. It's for the best, trust me. -- Begoon 17:41, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Cygnis, in answer to the question you removed, I meant that philosophical discussions about the merits or evils of infoboxes never go anywhere good, so let's stick to the simpler question of whether we have religion in this one. -- Begoon 17:57, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I removed it for what I thought was a good reason, is replying to that helpful. If this was regular content I could fix any concern, it is not and any objection requires debating the matter extensively (no joke, six months and still going). Not how wikipedia works where it does work, it is as simple as that, we are not Wikidata. Infobox guidelines preclude the inclusion of contentious items without consensus, for obvious reasons to any editor of content proper. cygnis insignis 18:05, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"for obvious reasons to any editor of content proper." ok. -- Begoon 18:10, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

To clarify my previous comments, my position is this is far too complicated to include in the infobox. In addition, some people might identify with a denomination but not identify as Christian (regardless of the denomination identifying as Christian), so aggregating 54.6% (or whatever) as "Christian" is inappropriate. Jack N. Stock (talk) 18:49, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"I'm Catholic but I'm not Christian, I'm a pretzel." --AussieLegend (✉) 19:17, 17 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The ABS does the adding up for total percentage of Christians, but puzzlingly, comes up with a different number from the one we have in the article - 52%, compared with our claim of 54.6%. See https://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/mediareleasesbyReleaseDate/7E65A144540551D7CA258148000E2B85 What's going on? HiLo48 (talk) 00:14, 18 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I didn't do the religion chart so I will look at the 2016 census Community Profile xls for Australia on the weekend and work it out.--StormcrowMithrandir (talk) 03:39, 18 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Ahhh...... I now regret opening this can of worms. The discussion shouldn't be around whether these people actually believe in a God or whether parents are choosing for children, etc. This is official ABS census data from the entire population and whatever else anyone comes up with is not nearly as good. Every census, not just Australia does it this way (self description rather than some test of what they actually believe and with parents completing for minors). There is no question that the data which is a very important demographic statistic which exists in all country articles should be there and should include a figure for all major world religions including small ones like Judaism. The only question is whether it should be in the infobox as well as the relevant section in the article, to which I would say no (even ancestry/ethnicity doesn't appear in the infobox for the Australia article despite being in the infobox of basically all other country articles) so my position is that religion and other demographic statistics beyond population should not go in the infobox. In the event it is contentious though and there are people who feel strongly about keeping it, I feel there is no harm at all to keeping it there.--StormcrowMithrandir (talk) 03:36, 18 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

StormcrowMithrandir, Well, I don't think that's really a fair reflection of the discussion. There's a fair consensus (5:1 if you want to "count votes") not to have it in the infobox, as it stands at the moment, as far as I read it. The fact that the conversation got "muddied" a bit by some of us going off on a tangent about the quality/interpretation of the data and another tangent about the pros and cons of infoboxes in general shouldn't be allowed to obscure that. You certainly shouldn't "regret" starting the discussion. -- Begoon 04:25, 18 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

There is no question that the data which is a very important demographic statistic - Being a very important demographic statistic justifies inclusion in the lede and the infobox. "The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies."

There's a fair consensus (5:1 if you want to "count votes") - Except that we don't count votes, we look at the strength of the arguments and some of the exclude arguments amount to WP:IDONTLIKEIT while others are, as you said, going off on a tangent about the quality/interpretation of the data. This is an FA so we need a fairly strong consensus, maybe even an RfC. A weak "consensus" based on flawed arguments could result in loss of the FA status. Looking at other articles I see that United States (GA), United Kingdom and Canada, all prominent English speaking countries, include religion in the infobox, as do many other articles so why should Australia be inconsistent? --AussieLegend (✉) 05:34, 18 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"This is an FA so we need a fairly strong consensus, maybe even an RfC. A weak "consensus" based on flawed arguments could result in loss of the FA status." - That argument would, of course, be a little stronger if, at the time of the last FA review: Wikipedia:Featured article review/Australia/archive1 (29 June 2010), the infobox had, in fact, contained religion - but as far as I can see it didn't... I've personally no objection to your turning this into an RFC if you think it's merited, though. -- Begoon 06:38, 18 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

As there has been no further discussion I will do that. --AussieLegend (✉) 20:32, 22 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Please consider joining the feedback request service. An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following lists: Religion and philosophy History and geography When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the lists. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

Should religion be removed from the infobox? --AussieLegend (✉) 20:33, 22 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• No - As stated above by another editor,[6] religion is a significant statistic about a country so deserves to be mentioned in the lede and in the infobox, which serves as a bullet point type addition to the lede. MOS:LEDE says, "The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies." Religion is generally included in infoboxes. See for example United States (GA), United Kingdom and Canada, all prominent English speaking countries, which include religion in the infobox, as do many other country articles. I'm not sure of the actual percentage but I have seen elswhere that 90% of readers don't go beyond the lede/infobox so removing it essentially hides the information from our readers or, at the very least, makes them have to search through the article for the information. There is no real reason to remove it in any case. --AussieLegend (✉) 20:32, 22 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
• yep cygnis insignis 20:41, 22 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
• As it stands currently, yes but a qualified yes only. I think they are a very important demographic statistic (one of the main three which will appear in any demographics section in world articles alongside language and ancestry/ethnicity, however all other prominent English speaking countries have both religion and ancestry/ethnicity in the infobox, so to be consistent if religion is there ancestry should be too in which case it would be a no - ie if we are going to include demographic statistics we could be more consistent about it - these would both have to be collapsible (as I believe religion is now) though because in order to include sufficient detail and not be misleading they would be include 8-15 items each and require collapsing not to be unwieldy.--StormcrowMithrandir (talk) 23:31, 22 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  The tune is familiar, can you whistle a few more bars :| cygnis insignis 07:45, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• Yes. First, let's clear up a couple of things: the existence of a field in an infobox's code in no way mandates, or even suggests, its use on every article using the infobox. More importantly, the usage or non-usage of that field in other articles has no real bearing or influence on whether or not it should be included here. I might argue against inclusion at the other articles - I might not - that's immaterial because here we decide what is best for this article.

  A lot is made in the two comments before mine of how "important" religious statistics are, yet the article itself says: "Australia has one of the lowest levels of religious adherence in the world". indicating that this "importance" is perhaps not shared by the subjects of this article. In any event, nobody is suggesting that the information is removed, just that it is better conveyed by explanatory prose in the article, rather than a survey result in an infobox without any nuance. A brief glance at an infobox containing roughly 50% "Christianity" does the complex subject no justice. It's rightly mentioned that a high proportion of readers might "go away" after finding that statistic, in which case we have served them badly, or even misled them into believing that it is a clear-cut issue and that is all they need to know about it.

  Above this section the argument was made that "This is an FA so we need a fairly strong consensus, maybe even an RfC" to somehow suggest that we mustn't remove religion from the infobox - however, as I pointed out there, at the time this article was last reviewed for FA, religion was not in the infobox - suggesting that, actually, it should only have been added by very strong subsequent consensus or RFC, which I don't really see anywhere. Anyway, my position is that religion in Australia is too nuanced to be adequately conveyed by the infobox and is better discussed in the article body. I don't believe we are "forced" by either the alleged "importance", or by what some other articles may or may not do, and that it is best removed from the infobox here.

  I could, I suppose, at a pinch, concede one alternative: I'm not personally convinced that anyone actually looking for details on religion in Australia would fail to find its section, but if there is a true concern shared by many here that a reader might go away "without finding" what they are looking for because they "expect it to be" in the infobox and don't look anywhere else, then place a simple link to the section there. I don't advocate this, but it remains as an option if purely "finding" the information is a true concern. Personally I consider the risk of the reader "going away" after seeing a bare, unexplained, undiscussed survey result and thinking that is all they "need to know" about religion in Australia to be greater.

  In any case, I favour removal of the percentage 'survey' figures from the infobox in favour of more detailed and nuanced treatment in the body. -- Begoon 00:28, 23 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• Yes. As per Begoon's very well considered comments above. Nickm57 (talk) 01:01, 23 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
• Remove – Per Australia § Religion, "Australia has no state religion". While it is appropriate to discuss the demographics in the article, it does not belong in the infobox. Mitch Ames (talk) 01:17, 23 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
• No. This is important, basic population information, which is why it's on the census in the first place. I can't see any valid reason for not having it there.Mark Marathon (talk) 01:22, 23 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  Here's a sample of what's "on the census in the first place": https://www.abs.gov.au/browse?opendocument&ref=topBar Religion is there in that list, it's the third note under "People & Communities". I do think, though, we'd have a rather large, unwieldy and potentially unusable infobox if we took "inclusion in the census" as a criterion guaranteeing inclusion in the infobox, based on what's listed there. Again, nobody is arguing for exclusion of information, merely removal of the bare, unexplained percentage 'survey' figures from the infobox in favour of the more detailed and nuanced treatment in the body. -- Begoon 01:45, 23 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

MarkMarathon, you are being a little rude in saying "I can't see any valid reason for not having it there". Several others have given reasons. You may disagree with their significance, but to call them invalid is unhelpful. And I shall expand on my reason to help you. The figures are misleading and inaccurate. We should not include misleading, inaccurate information in an Infobox. Fine in the text, if you want, where we can elaborate on issues such as it being a non-compulsory question, and parents presuming for their children. HiLo48 (talk) 03:00, 23 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This is important, ... which is why it's on the census... — It's not that important - it's the only question (other than Q60, permission to archive for 99 years) that is optional: 2016 sample census Mitch Ames (talk) 05:11, 23 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• 'Yes as per Begoons detailed analysis, Also the article states Australia has no state religion and so therefore it's rather pointless and unhelpful to have in the infobox. –Davey2010^Talk 21:12, 23 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
• Replace with National religion; for countries that have no official national religion, indicate "none"; for countries that have one, indicate what it is. bd2412 T 21:55, 23 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  No, because this, still, is incomplete, and suffers from the issue mentioned above that a high proportion of readers might "go away" after finding that bare statement, in which case we have served them badly, or even misled them into believing that it is a clear-cut issue and that is all they need to know about it. -- Begoon 22:41, 23 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• Yes, the religion should be removed from the infobox for the reasons discussed above. Simple percentages from an optional question in the Census are open to broad interpretation and could be misleading. Jack N. Stock (talk) 22:22, 23 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
• Keep this is basic information about demographics that would be included in all reputable encyclopedias. It's certainly a thing that needs to be in the infobox and allows for a quick comparison to the demographics of other countries (e.g. Canada, Nigeria, France, India, etc...). Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 23:48, 23 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  "this is basic information about demographics that would be included in all reputable encyclopedias." - then thank goodness nobody has suggested it should be excluded. -- Begoon 00:02, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• That's literally what the RFC is about. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 00:05, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  I think you should read it again - the RFC is about presentation of information, not its inclusion or exclusion. It is suggested that the bare, unexplained percentage 'survey' figures be removed from the infobox in favour of the more detailed and nuanced treatment in the body. There are several detailed arguments as to why this better and more informatively presents the data to a reader, but none that I can see arguing for its exclusion from the article. The question could possibly have been better worded, but that, in itself, is probably a good example of why detailed content is often preferable to a brief, nuance-free bullet-point. -- Begoon 00:20, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Summaries are important. And they are just as important in the case of Australia than it is in the case of Canada or Sudan or Russia or Bhutan or Brazil. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 01:06, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• Keep The precise numbers are not important, but the relative significance is. The top three numbers are 52, 30, 2.6. Australia would look very different if these proportions were in a different order or were different religions, so this provides valuable information in the infobox. --Scott Davis ^Talk 00:59, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

How is it significant and valuable, in what way would Australia "look different" if the numbers were? What sources confirm the weight attributed to this factoid? cygnis insignis 05:39, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The more people stress the "importance" and "significance" of this data the more convinced I become that including a bare, undiscussed, unexplained 'survey' result in the infobox is a real disservice to the reader. As has been pointed out, many readers may see this and "go away" deciding that is "all they need to know" about religion in Australia, never seeing the more nuanced explanation in the relevant section. If it's that important, surely we should do what we can to ensure that we convey a full, nuanced picture, rather than just a snippet which is open to all kinds of misinterpretation, such as those mentioned above with regards to the question being optional, with assumptions made for minors etc... Remember that nothing in this proposal suggests removing any information from the article, merely adjusting our presentation so that readers are more likely to find details of this "important" and "significant" topic and not just an incomplete 'snippet' or 'soundbyte' -- Begoon 06:08, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The counter argument is "makes them have to search through the article for the information", I suppose when two men at the bar are about to come to blows we are doing a disservice in making them learn something instead. cygnis insignis 06:44, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'm not personally convinced that readers coming to the article to read or find out about religion in Australia will be unable to find it, or even find it difficult, if it's not in the infobox - the table of contents is fairly prominent. However, in case there was a major, real concern among commenters here that that would be the case, I did touch on a possible solution to that in the fourth paragraph of my "Yes" comment above. I'm not convinced that should be necessary, but it's there to consider if there is substantial, genuine concern along those lines. -- Begoon 06:58, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Every well-developed article about countries has religious demographics in the infobox. Why should Australia be the exception? Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 07:22, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I don't know whether "Every well-developed article about countries has religious demographics in the infobox." or not - I haven't checked all of them (and I don't need to). I'll spare you the "otherstuff" link but, as I said above, what's in other articles has no real bearing or influence on whether or not it should be included here. Nobody is arguing for an 'exception' because there isn't any 'rule' to be 'excepted' from. I might argue against inclusion at the other articles - I might not - that's immaterial because here we decide what is best for this article. We did find out while talking about this that the featured article reviewers didn't note omission here as a problem, though, and they are quite big on "standards" and "consistency" I think... My arguments for leaving the bare survey results out of the infobox are all above, with those of others, so I won't repeat them again. Cheers. -- Begoon 07:32, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• Yes - The data is crap, because it's an optional question. No-one in their right mind could claim that all those who tick a particular religion are actually believers in that faith's god. All Australians know of other Australians who describe themselves as "cultural Christians", or "lapsed Catholics", or similar. We have no idea how such people answered the question. Because it's only the Infobox, there is no way we can explain these problems with the data. As for other articles on countries having the item, I don't really care. Chances are the same problems exist there. Every time I see a claim in Wikipedia about numbers of believers in a faith, anywhere, my eyes glaze over, and I skip that bit. It's a disaster area for Wikipedia. And don't try to tell me about "reliable sources, etc. We must always assess the quality of sources. If they cannot possibly deliver accurate, meaningful data, they are not reliable. HiLo48 (talk) 07:51, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Nobody cares what they actually believe in. I mean it is not for us to do an original research about this. We have an official census data and they have identified themselves as Christians, that's it. If we have another data that states different statistics we can put it in [note] next to the current official reliable census data. I think readers would want to see that information in the infobox.--SharabSalam (talk) 08:08, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

My point is that, despite being official census data, it's meaningless. Readers don't want meaningless data in the Infobox. (I'm a read, and I certainly don't.) And you know a lot of the respondents haven't just identified themselves as Christian. They have identified newborn babies as Christians, and that's simply wrong. Of what practical use is the data? HiLo48 (talk) 08:14, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The ABS doesn't think it's meaningless. As I've said above, The data is compiled by the ABS, the authoritative source for collection of Australian statistics, it's sourced from everyone in Australia at one time and it's an offence to not complete your Census form accurately. It's the most accurate data that you're ever going to get whether you like it or not. --AussieLegend (✉) 08:22, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"it's an offence to not complete your Census form accurately" How exactly does that work for an optional question? I'm genuinely asking. It's ok to refuse to answer, but it's an offence to say you're a Buddhist if you're not - or to tick the "no religion" box if you actually have a belief? Religion is a choice, so surely I could choose to say I believe in any religion I like just for the time it takes me to tick the box? I'm not asking this just to be difficult - I'm genuinely confused as to how this "offence" could be assessed or enforced for the particular question at issue here. -- Begoon 08:30, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Not really the forum for it, but almost everything on the census is a choice. I choose my sex, I choose how I go to work, I choose my charity involvement and so forth. It would be much harder to prove to a court that I drove my car to work on census day than to prove that I am an atheist. The latter is a matter of pubic record, the latter has no records. Ditto for my sex, my hobbies and so forth. Nonetheless it's an offence to answer any census question incorrectly. The chances of ever getting charged for answering a question incorrectly are neglible. You would need to loudly and publicly declare that you had done so, or encourage others to do so, to ever be charged. And that is exactly what these laws are likely meant to prevent. By making the act illegal, you also make it illegal to encourage others to do perform he act. Nonetheless this is the best information on the subject available. It's not our place as editors to decide that it is "crap".Mark Marathon (talk) 09:11, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

AussieLegend, what DOES the data mean? (And please stop copying and pasting your own replies.) HiLo48 (talk) 08:53, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It means that that is the religion that the people in Australia identified as. Just as the ancestry question means that that is the ancestry they identified as, and the occupation question means that that is the occupation they identified as and so forth. People may be lying on any of those questions just as easily as on the religion question. It's all about self-identification. Nonetheless this is the best, most reliable data available on Australian population statistics. If we want to declare that all census data is crap, then we can begin that discussion. But your idea that the religion data alone is crap is the worst sort of argument from ignorance and special pleading.Mark Marathon (talk)

How exactly does that work for an optional question? - That part was aimed more at HiLo48's claims about the quality of the data, more specifically that it's meaningless. It doesn't matter that the questional is optional. For the 90.3% of people who have answered the question it's required that their answer is correct.

it's an offence to say you're a Buddhist if you're not - or to tick the "no religion" box if you actually have a belief? - That's pretty much the case, but it applies to every question.

I'm genuinely confused as to how this "offence" could be assessed or enforced for the particular question at issue here. - Like everything else on the census it would be hard to enforce it but results of the entire census are based on the assumption that people are generally honest in their answers. The ABS does periodically verify census results from random households.

please stop copying and pasting your own replies. - Don't act as if that's something that I've done more than once. If you bother to look at the edit history you'll see that I answered your sill statement in the section above.[7] I then realised you'd made a similar claim here to which the response was almost equally valid and there was no point completely rewriting the response. --AussieLegend (✉) 11:11, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

When you say "It means that that is the religion that the people in Australia identified as", you have highlighted a fundamental problem. When they write an occupation for their children, they will not write the same as for for themselves. They will write "student", or whatever. They will probably tell the truth. But on religion, they write what they are, and it's a lie. This makes the data meaningless. HiLo48 (talk) 02:29, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It's not (necessarily) a lie (a deliberate untruth). Most Christians practise infant baptism, by which the child is deemed - by the parents and the Church - to become a member of that Church/religion. It's no different to parents (who've immigrated from elsewhere) applying for citizenship on behalf of their infant child. Just because the child is not old enough to make a decision doesn't mean that parents' decision is not accepted by the Church/religion/community. The child may later choose to reject the religion, but until they do, they are deemed - by the religious community and the Bureau of Statistics - to be a member of that religion. Mitch Ames (talk) 03:56, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Nah. The question on the census does not ask about whether someone is baptised or not. Many people who were baptised near birth, such as me, would have written "No religion". This isn't about baptism. And that's the problem. Figures in an Infobox are not explained. They can't be. That's the point. If they need explanation, they don't belong in the Infobox. HiLo48 (talk) 07:43, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

How you answered the question about yourself is irrelevant to the issue of whether a parent lies when answering on behalf of of someone else (their child). While it's true that the census question is not about baptism, my point stands. A baptised child - of whom there are likely to be a significant number - is considered by the parents and the Church community to be a Christian. You, I and Richard Dawkins may consider the parents delusional, but they are not lying. Mitch Ames (talk) 09:47, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Stop accusing me of things I have never said. At no point did I call anyone delusional. You are becoming abusive, and misrepresenting me, and that never helps. Obviously the point about how I answer the question IS relevant. It highlights that being baptised has no clear relationship to how one answers the question. And obviously I am not alone. Baptism is a red herring, and again, simply highlights that the meaning of the data is unclear. HiLo48 (talk) 10:40, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I retract any implication that you said or thought anyone was delusional. I maintain my original assertion that parents of baptised infants or young children are not lying when they answer for the child and declare the child to be Christian. Those parents' truthfulness, or otherwise, is independent of how you answered the question for yourself. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:01, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

HiLo48, your argument is nonsense, if someone says support the Melbourne Football Club, they are a supporter. They don’t have to be a member, they don’t need to own a red and blue scarf, they don’t need to go to games, they don’t even need to watch the games on tv or listen on the radio, they may just like to hear that Melbourne are winning (as uncommon as that is). If someone says they are Catholic they don’t need to eat fish on Fridays or attend a church weekly to be such. The ABS data is some of the best in the world. Cavalryman V31 (talk) 07:13, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Not nonsense at all. To start with, you have ignored my point about children. And there are two distinct levels of supporting. As well as what you describe, one can choose to be a Melbourne Football Club member. Now, those people can be counted, quite accurately. Religion is very different from that. HiLo48 (talk) 07:38, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• No. Keep the rough statistic. Similar arguments might be made against the census in other countries, but they are still good for rough approximations. Let those who are deeply interested read the article to learn about the special complexity of the question for Australians. Jzsj (talk) 09:22, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Please see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. And if we do have a "special complexity" that cannot be expressed in an Infobox, we must not include it. HiLo48 (talk) 02:32, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• No, religion says something about the history of a country, about its culture, international and national politics, beliefs and practices. I'd argue religion is that essential, that if you were to remove it you might just as well remove the entire infobox.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 13:49, 24 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Absolute nonsense. Everything else is more meaningful. HiLo48 (talk) 02:32, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Says who? Do you really think date format is more important? Cavalryman V31 (talk) 07:13, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Sorry. I don't know what you mean. HiLo48 (talk) 07:45, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Then I suggest you actually look at the infobox that is the subject of this RfC. Cavalryman V31 (talk) 08:58, 25 June 2019 (UTC).Reply[reply]

• No, retain in the infobox, it gives the reader a good initial snapshot of beliefs of the country. Cavalryman V31 (talk) 18:38, 24 June 2019 (UTC).Reply[reply]

No it doesn't. It's full of lies about all the children in Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 02:32, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

So who do you believe does speak for all the children in Australia? Cavalryman V31 (talk) 07:13, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Nobody. HiLo48 (talk) 07:46, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

That is not an optional question on belief, it's The Wiggles. cygnis insignis 07:31, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Remove in all country article as with ethnic groups and languages....really no need to have this data in most cases 3 times (we normally have prose and a chart) ..no need for a 3rd less accessible version.--Moxy 🍁 02:54, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• yes remove Australia is a secular state and people are free to practice any religion within the confines of Australian law[8] as per section 116 of the constitution therefore the inclusion in the info is misleading.. the infor should actually just say secular state and the demographics deal nuances. Gnangarra 11:43, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
• Yes, remove per Gnangarra. This field suggests Australia has established religions or similar, when it doesn't. It also suggests that Australia is divided by religion, when there's lots of data which shows that most religious Australians are tolerant of other faiths and religion is generally not a major issue in Australian public life. Nick-D (talk) 11:46, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
• No I have seen most of the arguments here that support removing the religion section in the infobox but I don't find them convencing, I'm sorry. The census data from Australian government is reliable and we should trust it. The argument that newborn babies religion is chosen by their parents is not a reason for removing the section. If we have reliable sources that explicitly state that the Australian census data about religion includes newborn babies who their parents choose their religion we can add it as a note in the section. That's a better solution than removing the section from the infobox. In my opinion the removal is the worst solution.

Moxy says that we should remove the religion section from all infoboxes of countries. Yea, that might be a good proposal but this RfC here isn't going to establish that. We can ask for this in template_talk:infobox country. However, I still think the religion section in the infobox is useful and benefits the reader. Again if there is a sourced controversy about the religion census data in Australia we can mention it in the infobox.--SharabSalam (talk) 12:11, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"if there is a sourced controversy about the religion census data in Australia we can mention it in the infobox" How exactly do you propose we do that without making the entry in the infobox huge and unwieldy? I did mention above, and I'll repeat here, that if there is a true concern shared by many here that a reader might go away "without finding" what they are looking for because they "expect it to be" in the infobox and don't look anywhere else, then we could place a simple link to the Religion section there. I don't advocate this, but it remains as an option if purely "finding" the information is a true concern. Personally I consider the risk of the reader "going away" after seeing a bare, unexplained, undiscussed survey result and thinking that is all they "need to know" about religion in Australia to be greater. -- Begoon 12:25, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

... reliable sources that explicitly state that the Australian census data about religion includes newborn babies who their parents choose their religion — The ABS says

... rates of having no religion are highest for babies, but drop substantially for children aged 5 to 14. It is quite likely that children under 15 do not answer the question on religion for themselves, so these rates may reflect their parents' views.

The second sentence says that parents are probably answering for their children, but the first sentence (and the remainder of that section of the page) suggests that at least some religious parents are not declaring that the child's religion is the same as their own. This is not definite enough to count as a non-OR RS, but it is interesting, given previous comments about parents choosing their children's religion. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:09, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

How exactly do you propose we do that without making the entry in the infobox huge and unwieldy? Notes, like the one that is in the infobox now and the notes we have for the the anthem, language and time zones. It's not rocket science. Note though, SharabSalam said "sourced" controversy. At the moment the only controversy is HiLo48's opinions and that doesn't constitute a source. --AussieLegend (✉) 16:38, 25 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Begoon: ...the risk of the reader "going away" after seeing a bare, unexplained, undiscussed survey result and thinking that is all they "need to know" about religion in Australia to be greater. I am having trouble imagining questions that I would think are satisfied by the infobox but really aren't. If I'm looking for details about religion, the infobox is not going to satisfy me, and it does not tell me details about anything else either. It's a quick overview in a standardised format of some key facts. If you have an issue with it displaying that 52.1% of Australians professed to be Christians in 2016, then raise a proposal that quantities in infoboxes should be to one significant figure (50%, i.e. about half) instead of three significant figures. The way certain politicians carry on about being taken over by Islam, the infobox stats either now or rounded to 1SF clearly would show that 50% Christian, 30% irreligious, 10% not stated, 3% Islam, 2% Buddhist, 2% Hindu show it has not happened, and one would need details of trend to see if it is happening (but it clearly has a long way to go). If the state infoboxes also had religion, it would be easy to see if there was sgnificant regional variation from the norm (e.g. Indonesia 87.2% Islam, 9.9% Christianity compared to West Papua (province) 53.77% Protestant, 38.4% Islam and 7.03% Catholic). --Scott Davis ^Talk 04:23, 26 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"If you have an issue with it displaying that 52.1% of Australians professed to be Christians in 2016..." I certainly do, and if you had been paying attention you would know what it is. It is simply not true to say that 52.1% of Australians professed to be Christians in 2016. Chances are that nobody under the age of ten "professed" to be anything. Someone else did the professing for them. If the number is the conclusion you drew from the raw numbers, it's wrong. Thank you for highlighting why it shouldn't be in the Infobox. HiLo48 (talk) 08:40, 26 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@HiLo48: The question is about "religion", not "faith". If the kid goes to church every Sunday, it is religious, whatever reason it had for going ("Mum wouldn't let me stay at home alone"). Australia being over 50% Christian and less than 3% Muslim means that on average, the country is quite different than Iran (Islam) or North Korea (no religion). It may also be different to the USA (73% Christian, 21% Unaffiliated and only 0.8% Muslim. If you want to argue that people under 14 are by definition irreligious, then you could argue for the age profile to be added to the infobox for the main article instead of finding that 17.75% of the population was aged 0-14 years in the text of a subsidiary page. I don't think the proportion of children would change the relative proportions of the religions by that much, which is what I expect to find from the infobox. --Scott Davis ^Talk 11:23, 26 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Yet again, the response I get involves considerable "interpretation", or maybe prespctive - religion vs faith, etc. You also suggest adding some clarification - adding the age profile. No. That's not what the Infobox is about. It should provide simple, accurate information at a glance, and for religion, it cannot. HiLo48 (talk) 11:30, 26 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The uncomplicated, no-interpretation version is to include the census figures to the sourced level of precision (3 significant figures) and cite it with no interpretation. It was you that brought up the idea that children might not have filled in their own forms honestly. Most of the alleged "complications" are attempts to find a compromise that you would accept. --Scott Davis ^Talk 12:26, 26 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Scott, I get the distinct impression you are mocking my comments, while also misrepresenting them. Completely unhelpful. When people disagreeing with me go down a path like that, I know I have made points they cannot refute logically and politely. Newborn babies simply do not fill in their own forms. Parents do it for them. And we cannot know what they write for their children's religion, but we can guess that in most cases it will be what the parents are. Whatever, it creates imprecise data. And any proposed "complication" is firstly, acknowledgment that I have a point, and secondly, a demonstration that it doesn't belong in an Infobox because it needs further explanation. HiLo48 (talk) 08:16, 27 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Virtually everything in an infobox needs further explanation. Ask most people what Gini is and they'll probably ask you if she was in the Harry Potter movies. --AussieLegend (✉) 13:28, 27 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

OK. I'll come clean. I've thought for some time that most Infoboxes should be abolished entirely, and you've just helped to reinforce that view. HiLo48 (talk) 10:21, 28 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Arguably misuse of a primary source. The debate on how a compromised version can be displayed in the infobox is not the question, that is "Should religion be removed from the infobox?", and is a perpetual hazard of the use of infoboxes: Inclusion is resolved by debate, not by the processes encyclopedic presentation of facts using sources and sentences. cygnis insignis 16:28, 26 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It looks like WP:PRIMARY specifically allows for us to report the uninterpreted results from the census, but that we have to have reliable secondary sources to interpret it such as determining whether children can have a religion, or exactly who filled in the forms. If you desperately require a secondary source to say that a bit over half of the Australian population self-identify as Christian, then perhaps The Guardian article on the results will satisfy you? If you use the same reference for a sentence elsewhere in the article that the proportion has declined from 88.2% in 1966, then anyone who clicked on the footnote marker will also see that the same reference is used elsewhere in the article and if they are interested enough, can easily click to see where. --Scott Davis ^Talk 03:58, 27 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• @SharabSalam: how more definitive can Section 116 of the Australian Constitution be, the infobox should have Secular with it linked directly to the appropriate section. Gnangarra 11:02, 26 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • OK, who's going to bring up the Magna Carta? I assume that's next. --AussieLegend (✉) 11:45, 26 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
• Re Australia is a secular state if this is the issue, then have |state_religion=Secular or something. Or get infobox country to display "Religious makeup/composition" instead of simply "Religion". Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 15:30, 26 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Secularity is not a religion. Mitch Ames (talk) 00:24, 27 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

My view is that a high proportion of Australians are actually Apatheists, and while I don't expect that to appear in the Infobox, maybe something else from the article should be there, the fact that "only 8.8% of Australians attended church on a weekly basis". HiLo48 (talk) 08:21, 27 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

How is it that I did not know that term, it is a subject I'm very interested in. cygnis insignis 08:41, 27 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Yes. A great word, isn't it? And naturally, we have an article on it. We should make more use of it. HiLo48 (talk) 09:38, 27 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I agree that many Australians are apatheists. They check "Christian" or "Catholic" on the census, but they don't own a Bible, only go to church if they are invited to a wedding, and may not believe there is a Creator. Jack N. Stock (talk) 15:42, 27 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• Keep, agree with Headbombs comment just above Atlantic306 (talk) 21:30, 26 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
• No I think this demographic statistic is germane. Chris Troutman (talk) 00:44, 28 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You're kidding, surely. Up above we have probably a dozen different interpretations of the data, and as many different suggestions on how to remove the obvious possible confusion for the reader. HiLo48 (talk) 10:19, 28 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• Comment So there was an RFC about religion in country infoboxes. Consensus determined the religion parameter is only to be included in this infobox [if and only if] that nation's government has an official, definite state religion. (It's from 2015, but as far as I know it hasn't been superseded.) Colin M (talk) 04:44, 29 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This looks like the winner. HiLo48 (talk) 05:20, 29 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Not really. The quote above is 24 words cherry-picked from a 500 word closing summary. --AussieLegend (✉) 05:39, 29 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"Cherry-picked" makes the (rather uncharitable) implication that I'm coming at this with an agenda. I am not. I haven't !voted, because I'm personally undecided at this point. I chose those words because I thought they were the ones most relevant to this question. I could have also quoted the closer's first two sentences: Consensus in this request for comment has determined several things. Firstly, there is overwhelming agreement that the religion parameter is not to be used in ((infobox country)) if the only reasonable value for that parameter is "none", "atheist," "none official," "secular state," or variations thereof. Which basically communicates the same thing, but less pithily. If you have an interpretation of those 500 words such that they're consistent with keeping the religion parameter, I'd be genuinely interested in hearing it. Colin M (talk) 06:29, 29 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It is not clear for me what was the proposal of that RfC. Was it about the religion of the state itself? e.g "Yemen"="Muslim country", or is it about the demographic statistical data about the religion in the society of the State/Nation. It presents the argument of that if the individual religion in BLP article is atheist or none religious we should not give any value to the religion parameter, that makes me feel that the proposal was to remove the religion of the state itself if the state is secular/atheist or whatever. I always thought that the parameter |religion= in the infobox country is about the religion of the people of the state not about the state religion. The participants in that RfC seem to have interpreted the proposal in different ways.--SharabSalam (talk) 07:52, 29 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'm sorry if "cherry-picked" was taken the wrong way. It was used to point out that 24 words from the middle of a complex 500-word summary had been chosen. You really need to read the whole summary and the RfC along with the associated discussions to work out what was actually going on. Even then, it's as clear as mud as SharabSalam has indicated. --AussieLegend (✉) 08:49, 29 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

In my understanding, the question of the RfC was what should the value of the 'religion' parameter be for nations with no official religion. Pinging @Guy Macon and Ceradon: as nominator and closer, respectively, in case they want to chime in (though the latter seems to be inactive). Colin M (talk) 17:00, 29 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]