Demographics WP:STATUSQUO[edit]

Outdated and false information has been self-declared as WP:STATUSQUO by @Kautilya3 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rahman1212 (talk • contribs) 16:57, 5 June 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

RfC on demographics[edit]

An editor has added false information about the demographics of Balochistan claiming that:

1. Baloch make up 60% in the province

2. There are Turks living in the area

In support of the first point a random newspaper article is claimed source (whose numbers are contrary to any official source). While for the second point only imagination has been used.

I first tried to update the numbers to 2017 census (latest census) i.e. Baloch make up 35% and there are no Turks in the area. But after discussing with other editors I came to know that there is no official definition of "Baloch ethnicity", and numerous Barahvi, Pashto, Sindhi and Seraiki speaking communities also identify as Baloch. So in that effect I preferred to remove that information to keep the article clean of imaginations, and just stick to facts.

All of my edits were removed by the editor who added the baseless numbers in the first place, claiming that his version WP:STATUSQUO

Also, there is no such thing as 2008 census. The 2008 data is based on 1998 census in which Pashtuns were underrepresented (see discussion), while in 2017 their representation was restored (and hence the jump in their numbers). Rahman1212 (talk) 13:14, 19 June 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments

Regarding claim 1, the source for this information doesn't seem to be sufficient. It says As per the 2008 Pakistan Statistical Yearbook, 40 per cent of the province’s inhabitants speak Balochi, while 20 per cent speak Brahui, while Pushtoon speakers were estimated at 25 per cent. As Brahui-speakers are also grouped under the Baloch ethnicity, they would form the majority of Balochistan. The source does not actually state the 60% figure, which strictly speaking is WP:SYNTH. (The source doesn't say whether there's overlap between Balochi and Brahui speakers. If there is, or if some speakers of other languages are also considered Baloch, the 60% figure would be incorrect.) Can we find a more specific or authoritative source for the proportion of Baloch people in the region? User:Rahman1212, do you have a source for the 2017 census information?
I assume claim 2 is this: Other smaller communities include Hazaras, Sindhis, Punjabis, Uzbeks and Turkmens. That claim is currently unsourced and doesn't seem to be supported by the article's body, so it should also be removed unless a source can be provided. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 21:40, 20 June 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks for your feedback. As I stated in my post, and pointed by other editors that there is no official definition of "Baloch ethnicity". While it is clear that most of them speak Balochi language, but a considerable number also speak Baravhi, Pashto, Sindhi and Seraiki. As a result we can not estimate "ethnic Baloch" population.
2017 census (https://www.pbs.gov.pk/sites/default/files/population/2017/tables/balochistan/Table11p.pdf) on the other hand provides us with the language distribution that is already summarized in the language section of the article. Rahman1212 (talk) 18:07, 21 June 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Within Baluchistan the population is not ethnically homogeneous. Some communities are identified (by themselves and others) as Balōč (see 10 below), with the implication that they are descended from those who entered the area as Balōč; while others, though considered members of Baluch society now and identifying as Baluch in relation to the outside world, are known within Baluch society by other tribal (e.g., Nowšērvānī, Gīčkī, Bārakzay) and subethnic (e.g., Brahui, Dehwār, ḡolām, Jaḍgāl, Mēd) designations, with the implication that they have adopted Baluch identity relatively recently—but not that they are for that reason in any way outsiders.

Selig S. Harrison writes:

For the most part, the Brahuis have been assimilated into the larger cultural, social, and political stream of Baluch life and think of themselves as Baluch. Warren W. Swidler, an anthropologist who lived in the Kalat area, stressed the "many similarities in culture, tradition, and political organization" between tribes that identify themselves as Brahui and other Baluch. Nina Swidler also found the distinction between Brahui and other Baluch to be "problematic." To the extent that a distinction should be made, it is a linguistic distinction, since Brahuis speak a language that contains Dravidian syntactical and lexical elements not found in Baluchi.[1]

The Pushtun issue is entirely different. The Pushtuns have never claimed to be Baluch and neither are they ever expected to do so. They are an ethnic minority in Balochistan, mainly populating the northern belt bordering Afganistan. The problem right now is that, ever since the Afghan problem started, the Afgan Pushtuns have been streaming into Balochistan and merging into the local Pushtun population. The Pakistani State seems entirely uninterested to do anything about the problem. So, their numbers have been going up in the censuses. The 1951 census, the first one of Independent Pakistan, showed Pushtuns to be 23%.[2] That is the native Pushtun population in the Pakistani Balochistan land area. The 2008 Statistical Yearbook estimated it to be 25%. But in the 2017 census, their numbers suddenly jumped to 35%. Coupled with this the overall population growth at 87% is also much higher than the national average, indicating that the refugees might have been counted as regular population. So, this needs proper analysis by some experts. We cannot simply include the census data without attribtion. These problems have been amply noted in the press,[3][4][5] and Selig Harrison discussed them way back in early 1980s.[6]
Regarding claim 2 (in the lead), Trim it to correspond to the body. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 03:32, 22 June 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Please instead of trying to divert the discussion stick to the point. I am going to repeat again:
- From where did you get 60%? Is there any reputable source? If there is none then this will be removed.
Furthermore, concerning the Pashtun population: they were underrepresented in the 1998 census and as a result there is a jump in their numbers in 2017.
Also, it is interesting that you would put Dravidians and west Iranians into one "ethnicity", but have a problem with Pashtuns whether they are from Afghanistan or Pakistan. Rahman1212 (talk) 22:18, 23 June 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The 60% is obtained by adding the Balochi and Brahui speakers, as you know very well. It is an instance of WP:CALC and perfectly permissible, when the context demands it. I have shown the context above. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:58, 7 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I don't think it's permissible here. Is there overlap between Balochi and Brahui speakers? Are there any speakers of other languages who are also Baloch? The source doesn't say. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 10:23, 8 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Many news reports have done what you consider "not permissible".[1][2][3]. Further you are also majorly ignoring what the original source said: "As Brahui-speakers are also grouped under the Baloch ethnicity". Have you read the Encyclopedia Iranica article I cited above? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:18, 8 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That article from Dawn does give figures, but as far as I can tell they represent the population in 21 districts where the Baloch form a majority rather than the whole province.
I am not ignoring the passage you quoted – my point is that the source doesn't say whether there are other Baloch people beyond those who speak Balochi and Brahui, or whether there are people who speak both Balochi and Brahui. We can't make assumptions about this (or combine information from different sources in a way that violates WP:SYNTH) – we should just report the figures that are given in reliable sources. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 21:11, 8 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Please do not assume that "I know very well" where you brought that info. In case of WP:CALC where did you bring the individual numbers? Please point reliable sources! Rahman1212 (talk) 20:55, 14 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

References

  1. ^ Harrison, Selig S. (1981), In Afghanistan's Shadow: Baluch Nationalism and Soviet Temptations, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, p. 184, ISBN 978-0-87003-029-1
  2. ^ Shah, Agha Mir Yakub, ed. (1951), Baluchistan: Reports & Tables, Vol. 2 (PDF), Government of Pakistan Publications, p. 47
  3. ^ Mubarak Zeb KKhan, Number of Balochi-speaking people in Balochistan falls, Dawn, 11 September 2017.
  4. ^ Kiyya Baloch, Census Rekindles Old Controversies In Pakistan’s Restive Balochistan, Gandhara, 6 March 2017.
  5. ^ Asadullah Raisani, Demographic Changes in Balochistan: The Baloch Identity, The Geopolitics, 12 January 2022.
  6. ^ Harrison (1981), p. 181: "Bizenjo, however, said that even 40 percent is an inflated figure. He suggested 20 to 25 percent instead, though he observed bitterly that the number of Pushtuns is steadily increasing. Even before the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, he alleged, Islamabad had actively encouraged Pushtun immigration into Baluchistan. More recently, Bizenjo complained, Pushtun refugees from Afghanistan have been "flooding" the province, many of them wealthy landowners and traders who have immediately begun to compete for local economic and political power."

Discussion

Biased Map[edit]

Biased much? Part of J&K that is de facto controlled by Pakistan is shown as provinces of Pakistan. But, the part controlled by India is shown as disputed. 27.62.184.97 (talk) 13:22, 4 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Map and table numbers for districts do not correspond[edit]

The numbers in the districts map do not all correspond to those in the table. For instance, number 11 in the map corresponds to number 12 Kech in the table.Redav (talk) 23:33, 1 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

'Balochi' spelling variant[edit]

Is that actually attested, or where has it come from? I've removed it before, and it's been reinstated without any explanation. نعم البدل (talk) 18:06, 3 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Balochi spelling mistake[edit]

The Balochi spelling for "Balochistan" is not right in this article. The actual spelling for "Balochistan" is the same as Urdu and Persian. See the Balochistan region's article as that has been attested. EnchantedEdits (talk) 10:20, 17 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 August 2023[edit]

YawerMehdi12345 (talk) 09:38, 26 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The population of Balochistan is incorrect at present. it should be 14,894,402.

Source 1: https://www.pbs.gov.pk/sites/default/files/population/2023/Press%20Release.pdf Source 2: https://twitter.com/MSarwarGondal/status/1688519054976303105/photo/1

 Done M.Bitton (talk) 12:17, 28 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I used this source for the exact number. M.Bitton (talk) 12:31, 28 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Move discussion in progress[edit]

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Punjab, India which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 18:21, 2 October 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

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