Question about the German and the Czech Universities[edit]

I am posting this comments and questions here because I do not know where else should they go or to whom shall I write

According to the earlier version of the article, University of Prague was the first university in German language as well, alas this statement was eliminated mid way, never to come back. I have read that in a Spanish encyclopedia, but I could not find the statement in Wikipedia until I checked the history of the article.

I wrote recently a short article about Karl Deutsch, a Czech political scientist who emigrated to the USA in 1938 and became Prof. at Harvard, Yale and other prestigious universities. According to several authors (they might be quoting each other) he graduated in Law at the Deutschen Universität in Prague, in 1934, and in Political Sciences at Univerzita Karlova (Dissertation on Goverment), in 1938. I inferred then, that these two were separate entities; but I also infer now, after reading the Charles University article that they might be the same. One source even indicates that Karl Deutsch was invited to continue his studies at Charles University, "in spite of the fact that he was an ethnic German", meaning that normally attendance to the Czech school was restricted or somehow limited for other ethnic groups.

Karl Deutsch died in 1992, so it is not possible to verify any thing with him. He wrote a short autobiography that covers the period from 1930 to 1980; so far I have seen it mentioned only once in the literature and have not seen any other comment about it nor the book or article itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lcgarcia (talk • contribs) 05:47, 29 Nov 2004

According to the German article, Karl Deutsch (who was not "Czech", he, like 3 million other Austrians, just inherited Czechoslovak citizenship courtesy of the treaty of St. Germain in 1919) first studied at the Deutsche Karl-Ferdinand-Universität. When he returned to his home town, the Nazis had gained too much influence at the German U for him to continue his studies there, so he went to the Czech U one instead. -- Matthead  Discuß   17:03, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Every Austrian (German) was able to opt for Austria. —Guy Peters Talk • Contributions • Edit counter 18:49, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Questions

That Univerzita Karlova is also the first German university, is an interesting fact, in my opinion, it should be once again in the article. As I said, I read that statement before elsewhere, if I do not see any reference to it (whether positive or negative) in Wikipedia I would then think that Wikipedia is careless, which I do not think is the case. -- Lcgarcia 05:47, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It is the oldest German university and to delete this from the article is quite wrong. Throughout the majority of its history it was a bilingual university. It has become (dt the walkout by Saxonian and Bavarian profs/students) the "mother" of many German universities. German history and Czech history is linked over large parts undivisibly and I think this should be acknowledged rather than wiped out. Refdoc 09:38, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

revert warring is not a solution. Please use teh talk pages to explain why you are unhappy with this. Refdoc 08:27, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

What does it mean "German" in your first sentence? There were many German students and professors since it was the first university in Central Europe, but German profs/students were also in Paris, Bologna and other universities before Prague and you do not consider them to be the first German, do you? The language of lectures was Latin until 1784, not German or Czech. it was not bilingual but multilingual as there were students from all of Europe. Qertis 08:30, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The oldest German university is in Heidelberg (founded in 1386). Qertis 08:34, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

No, there were not just "German students" and "German professors" but the university was founded specifically "based on four nations", three of which were at the time part of the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation (from today's POV a multiethnic and multinational entity) and two of which are now part of the German Nation. This - while undergoing various organisational changes - was a situation persisting until the mid of the 20th century. And by being founded in 1348 it is a few decades older than Heidelberg. So the claim that this is the oldest German university has nothing to do with territorial/cvhauvinistic/revisionist thinking, but everything with completeness of all our history - which is inextricably linked for better and for worse. The university - with all its ethnic strife - was certainly one of the better aspects of our joint history. Refdoc 09:34, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The foundation charter [1] is very clear, it was a gift of king Karel IV. to Bohemian people. Kingdom of Bohemia was simply independent of Holy Roman Empire, it was just a formal structure if you check the history. So claiming that Charles University is an oldest german university is wrong. ≈Tulkolahten≈≈talk≈ 01:19, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Wrong, stop this stupid czech nationalism here (I am Czech myself). Bohemia was an integral part of the HRE. It might not be correct to say that the university was "German", but it is also incorrect to say that it was "Czech", as the "nations" that created it were Czechs, Saxons, Bavarians and Poles. If you have a company that resides in Prague, is owned from two thirds by Germans, one third Czechs and one third Poles, would you call it a "Czech" company? Hardly. Is it a German company? No. Is it a Prague company? Yes. Quarreling about "nationalities" of medieval times using present-time meanings is stupid anyway, because the meaning of "nationality" shifted over the time. 85.70.5.66 17:08, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Did I say something like this ? I just removed a sentence where it was a "German university". Read carefully and maybe twice or three times before you will start swearing ! Beware of personal attacks and assume good faith. Foundation charter clearly says it was Bohemian, and by history it was Bohemian, Saxony, Bavarian and Polish. There is nothing about Czechs and Germans and I did not say anything like that. And also 2/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 4/3, you have too many thirds :-D And one more - Bohemia was sovereign and was just a formal part of the Holy Roman Empire since Golden_Bull_of_Sicily you should know that. ≈Tulkolahten≈≈talk≈ 20:03, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Bohemia was a multiethnic (Czech/German) state, and "Bohemian" is not synonymous with "Czech". Please stop this nationalism! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.109.158.208 (talk) 09:54, 6 February 2007 (UTC).[reply]
You can't be serious if you write Charles IV, German Emperor. It was a bohemian university where was allowed to speak and teach in german, but your edit are POV, offensive and nationalistic. You wrote german students were murdered after the war ? Are you kidding ? Mainly this sentence The German part of the institution proclaimed itself a university of Reich why did you remove and was abolished after the liberation in 1945. It sounds very nationalistic, maybe neo-nationalistic! Charles university was always bohemian nad not german, instead of 1938-1945 when thousands of czech students were killed by Nazi at Kobylisy shooting range. And everything in these days was german and bohemia was multi-cultural ? According this logic all in germany was czech, because of medieval multicultural. What an arrogance. ≈Tulkolahten≈≈talk≈ 11:38, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Charles IV. was elected as a king of Bohemia in 1346, and as a king of Germany in 1349, but Charles university was founded in 1348. There is no doubt then. ≈Tulkolahten≈≈talk≈ 20:04, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Charles was in 1346 elected by four of the seven German prince-electors and crowned as King of the Romans (Romanorum rex), one year before be became king of Bohemia (Boemie rex). Thus, "Karolus, Dei gracia Romanorum rex semper augustus et Boemie rex" was in his second year as German king, and in his first as Bohemian king, and he accordingly gave the date as in "regnorum nostrorum anno secundo". There is no doubt, indeed. Of course, he was again elected in 1949 after his opponent had died, and was crowned also as Emperor, Lombardian and Burgundian king. -- Matthead  Discuß   17:23, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  1. They were not Germans, since the Bohemian king was not German.
  2. Your are right that Charles IV dated his deed as Roman anti-king. But it is not important, because it is true for both Prague (1348) and Eisenach (1349) deed. What really matters is that he edited his Prague deed in capacity of Bohemian king: "qualiter regnum nostrum Boemie, quod pre ceteris hereditariis, aut eufortune acquisicionis honoribus et possessionibus prerogativa mentis affeccione complectimur, cuius exaltacionem omni, qua possumus, diligencia procurantes, ipsius honori intendimus totis conatibus et saluti, sicut rerum victualium, ad dispensacionem divini nominis natura profluente tripudiat", and his Eisenach deed in capacity of Roman king: "Ačkoli obezřelá dobrotivost královské důstojnosti podle jí svěřené vladařské péče z jisté povinnosti je zavázána pečovat o blaho všech svých věrných, které objímá nejsvětější říše římská . . ." —Guy Peters Talk • Contributions • Edit counter 18:43, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I do not understand why the reference to the German Name of the University has been removed, when clearly there was a German, as well as Latin and Czech name for the University; and this before the University was split into 2 separate entities: one Czech and the other German. The title in German: Karls-Universität Prag is correct, and refers to the combined university and not the later k.k German Karl-Ferdinands Universität. The German title and should be included for historical accuracy and in order to avoid an error of omission. To this end I have re-edited the page and added the German name. Also is it really the oldest 'Czech' university, or rather the oldest university in Prague, in the Kingdom of Bohemia, and in the Holy Roman empire. It is the oldest university in the modern Czech Republic to have taught in Czech, but its history is far older than the modern Czech republic. I think the introduction should be rewritten to reflect this long and distinguished history of the University. Tempsperdue 20:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In response to Tulkolahten recent edit: How do you figure that a University that was founded for education in Latin (In the kingdom of Bohemia), later taught in German then also in Czech, was subsequently split into 2 halves (Czech & German), and finally ended up as a University in the modern Czech republic, is (to quote yourself on the edit page): "It was, is and will be czech university."? I must misunderstand what message you are trying to convey? The university has a historical German name, as well as Latin and Czech, has a long history of education in all 3 languages, and happens to be in a city in the modern Czech republic, why should this factual information not be included in an encyclopaedia article on the history of the university? I am not interested in editing war, nor in some misplaced form of nationalism. The University is in Prague, it was founded by Charles I (Later IV) of Bohemia in a region of Europe where at least 4 languages were spoken. Why the insistence that the university being a 'Czech' university, a country which has only officially existed since the breakup of the Austro-Hungarian Empire? It seems that this does dishonour to the long and prestigious history of the University!(-- Tempsperdue (talk) 19:54, 16 November 2007 (UTC))[reply]

Wasn't Prague even the capital of the Holy Roman Empire when the university was founded? As far as I remember, Prague itself contained very large percentages of both Czech and German population over many centuries. If that distinction even makes sense in Prague, that is... 84.160.175.184 (talk) 21:15, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Prague was indeed capital of the Holy Roman Empire at the time, under the House of Luxembourgh then under ruling House of Habsburg. Therefore the main Imperial University was created and established there.–IEEE (talk) 02:54, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The HRE never had a capital, only residences of the kings/emperors.--MacX85 (talk) 21:22, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"German university" again[edit]

"Therefore" means two things: 1) the reason why some people even today call Charles University "German" lies in a flawed perception of HRE as a German state and 2) as a first university in this part of Europe it logically attracted large number of students and scholars from neighboring German states. The whole issue is quite complicated and controversial and could hardly be explained in the lead in a single sentence. I don't insist on the one I have proposed, but if you really want to have it there, you should definitely come with something better than "as well as the earliest German university." which is (again) vague and misleading. BTW, have you already read this? Qertis (talk) 19:37, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've already told you that I am open to suggestions as I am not completely happy with this phrase, either, but it still appears less worse than other alternatives. I have read the link and, while the author is at pains to stress that modern national concepts are an anachronism in the Middle Ages, he still concludes that "after all it can be viewed as the oldest German university" exactly because of the split in 1409 (Die Universität Prag kann trotzdem die älteste ‚deutsche‘ genannt werden: Dies wurde später sichtbar in der Teilung in eine deutsche und eine tschechische Universität, bei der die Böhmen 1409 Stimmengleichheit erreichten). And this split along national lines is indeed definite historical proof that the concept of nationality was well recognized at the time which means, giving the German predominance at the time, we can refer to Charles University very well as a German foundation, and in fact even more so than if the rift hadn't occurred.
1) this is contradicted by the history section which describes a German-dominated university from its foundation in 1349 until the split in 1419, and again from 1622 to at least the second split in 1882. In between, the Protestant university seemed to be dominated by the Czech element, but it is equally clear enough that this rump can be only just so called a university.
2) this actually supports the notion of a German university Gun Powder Ma (talk) 11:24, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Again, no one is denying the German (whatever it means) element in the history of the university, but when talking about "German university" 99 out of 100 would have in mind "university in Germany", not "university with a large number of German-speaking students". Even the link leads to that list. In this sense your phrase is at least badly misleading if not completely wrong, so it should be rewritten. What about "It is sometimes considered also the earliest German university."? Of course the easiest way would be to avoid this sentence from the lead at all, but if you want it there so much, it should be at least correct. Qertis (talk) 06:37, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fine, let's remove the link then (one to History of German universities, if such an article existed, may be indeed more appropiate). "to be considered" seems also a good way to word the difficult matter appropiately, but to suggest that this has only been done sometimes so may be misleading. Actually, I could add many more references. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 10:23, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, my point is that the university is considered "German" almost exclusively in Germany or German-speaking countries, while in the Czech Republic itself is such a view almost nonexistent. But I am fine with your conclusion. Qertis (talk) 16:03, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Why have all references to Charles University being considered the oldest university in the German speaking world, even if it was in the Kingdom of Bohemia part of the HRE (which was only refered to as german HRE starting around 1474)? And further that at the time modern ideas of citizenship did not exist anywhere and the early ideas of 'nationalism' were fluid within such a multiethnic region. But to remove reference to the majority of its early students being native German speakers (whether imhabitants of Prague or Bohemians, Saxons, Moravians, etc) does the history of the institution and region of Bohemia an injustice. This is irrespective of the fact that it it also the oldest Czech speaking university! Why is modern ethno nationalism besmirching such a long lived institution which can for all intents be considered the oldest German and Czech speaking university?192.252.234.108 (talk) 11:39, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Austrian Prague[edit]

I am not familiar with the individual case of Karl Deutsch in relation to why he left a particular university, but I know that he, like all the people that became part of the newly created country of Czechoslovakia had been Austrian citizens (Austro-Hungarian empire) until the lands of Bohemia and Moravia were taken from Austria to create the new country. The new country Czechoslovakia was made up of three ethnicities (all of whom were formerly Austrian citizens), Czechs being the largest group, Austrians (also referred to as Germans), being the second largest group and Slovaks the third largest group. The Austrians (Germans) made up about 20% of the population. The ethnic rivalries that existed prior to the creation of Czechoslovakia continued to exist after its creation, but now the Czech ethnic group was in the majority and recent scholarly books have finally portrayed a realistic picture of what the country was like. It wasn't the innocent, defenseless little democracy that English and Americans spoke of in the 1930's. When the country was created the Czechs made sure they would be in control and the Germans and Slovaks would be subservient to them and these other groups resented this. Its quite possible Karl Deutsch was forbidden to teach at the university because he was as ethnic German.

But the entire article is biased from the beginning; but considering its by wikipedia and Germans are part of the subject it's not surprising. The article says "In the revolution of 1848, German and Czech students fought for the addition of the Czech language at the Charles-Ferdinand University as a language of lectures. Due to the demographic changes of the 19th century, Prague ceased to have a German-language majority around 1860. By 1863, 22 lecture courses were held in Czech, the remainder (out of 187) in German. In 1864, Germans suggested the creation of a separate Czech university. Czech professors rejected this because they did not wish to lose the continuity of university traditions." But this statement is the first mentioning of the languages used since the university was created in the fourteenth century. Prague was founded by Germans and the German language was the primary language used in Prague and at the university until the nineteenth century, when the ethnic makeup of the city changed, as the article says.

The ethnic tensions continued and then the Austrian Adolf Hitler sent German troops into Czechoslovakia in 1938. This was used as an excuse to ratchet up the propaganda against Germany, in preparation for war against them. Germany was at the same time arguing for the rights of ethnic Germans that had been dispersed throughout eastern Europe when large areas of land was taken from Germany and Austria to create new countries in 1919. Czechoslovakia had never existed as a country before.

In 1945 at the end of WW II, the German population of 3.5 million people were brutally expelled from their homes in Czechoslovakia as part of the biggest ethnic cleansing operation in history when in total, over fourteen million (possibly as high as twenty million) Germans were expelled from their homes and cities and parts of Europe that had always been German in culture and population, but were suddenly completely depopulated and repopulated with people that had never lived there before. Nothing on this this scale had ever happened in history, before or since. The Slovaks were not happy with their position in Czechoslovakia in the 1930's either. They were able to finally break away and form their own state in 1993.Pgg804 (talk) 02:01, 3 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]


.... Goebbels word for word.
The Czech Kingdom of Bohemia and Magraviate of Moravia were historical lands, they existed with strong kings of House of Přemyslid. German immigrants have known very well where they settled from the very beginning. Habsburgs were ELECTED by Czech nobles to become ruling family in the Czech lands in 1526 - because creating strong Central European union was considered important for protection against Turk raids. With the same legal right Habsburgs had been deposited in 1918. The basis of Habsburg empire were Czech and Hungarian crown's plus a couple of Austrian duchies. You should know that. --Posp68 (talk) 08:05, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Shanghai Ranking[edit]

Shanghai Ranking compares 1200 higher education institutions, not 17000. So the University is in upper 10-11% not 1.5%. Can somebody correct it, in another languages as well? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smirnoff 80 (talk • contribs) 07:26, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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as did Polish and Hungarian troops elsewhere[edit]

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Medivel universities[edit]

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Seperate article for recent events[edit]

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