Military history: Technology / Weaponry / Cold War Start‑class

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Censorship?

That an article violates copyright is not a reason to delete the article entirely, but to FIX IT.

It's my experience that editors who just delete wholesale swaths of information on some technical wiki complaint oftentimes aren't so much worried about the technicality, but just don't want the information available at all. Kaz 21:47, 19 September 2005 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• Actually, if an article is a copyright violation it is a reason to delete it. --Fastfission 14:05, 24 October 2005 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• • I would suggest fix over delete. Deletion should be only the most extreme solution. --Shaddack 12:00, 27 November 2005 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"it could wipe out millions of people" The term "wipe out" probably wouldn't be found in an encyclopedia. Perhaps "kill" or something similar would be better?

• Replaced with 'slaughter'. Justification:

slaugh·ter (slô'ter) n. 1.The killing of animals especially for food. 2.The killing of a large number of people; a massacre: “I could not give my name to aid the slaughter in this war, fought on both sides for grossly material ends” (Sylvia Pankhurst). DV8 2XL 11:48, 27 November 2005 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• • You may maybe consider trying "eliminate". It is less bloody and more Strangelovish. --Shaddack 12:00, 27 November 2005 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I picked the term 'slaughter' on purpose. While I am not in any way anti-nuclear in any sense of the word, I won't whitewash the fact that nuclear weapons (particularly of the enhanced radiation sort) are designed to kill as many people as possible in the target area. DV8 2XL 12:06, 27 November 2005 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I don't think slaughter is appropriate for killing by radiation. Although it is not defined by that dictionary the implicit meaning is the killing in a violent way, in a bloody way.

@DV8 2XL, you're confusing the cobalt bomb with enhanced radiation nuclear weapons commonly known as neutron bombs. These are two radically different types of nuclear weapon. Cobalt bombs are intended to create extremely long-lived radioactive fallout (lethal to unprotected humans for well over fifty years), while enhanced radiation weapons create a momentary flux of neutrons which kills humans in the immediate vicinity of the area where the bomb is detonated (a 2 to 5-mile radius from the center of the detonation), but do not contaminate the area with radiation to any significant extent.

Please read WP:SOAPBOX. A Wikipedia article on a weapon is not an appropriate forum for subjective statements which are not sourced regarding the effects of that weapon. However, if you can locate secondary sources which provide such commentary, you're welcome to write about the statements those sources make about the effects of that weapon. If you can find a source written by a notable authority on the use of nuclear weapons who describes the aftermath of use of a cobalt bomb as "slaughter", you could add the statement "Dr Iman Authoritee wrote, in an article in the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists that the aftermath of the use of a cobalt bomb would best be described as a "slaughter"." loupgarous (talk) 16:18, 30 August 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply]

~~MV~~

In order to make the article better, you could perhaps mention that cobalt bombs would be an extra and lingering danger in the area where they explode, but that however, the amount of cobalt required to cause the effect that Szilard described is enormous and not practical.

+besieged

"originally proposed by physicist Leó Szilárd, who suggested that it would be capable of destroying all life on Earth," is totally without reference (not to mention the idea is preposterous anyway). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Besieged (talk • contribs) 13:29, 1 March 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]

My physics teacher described a Cobalt bomb to us one day. What he describes was not a "dirty bomb" at all but the use of consecutive shells of elements ending in Cobalt. All of these shells would be wrapped around a standard hydrogen bomb. The basic idea is that energy release from one shell would be enough to start fusion in the next element, all the way to Cobalt. I forget the exact amount of energy released, but it would be enough to destroy the Earth.

Nah-- either you misunderstood or your prof is out to lunch. Fusion is hard to produce, and early bombs "coated" even with shells of fusionables, even easy ones like deuterium, didn't fuse it very well (the shell configuration works in supernovas, but you need a star's gravity to help you with the shell compression, so it's not the same thing!). In either stars or bombs, for good fusion you need compression. This is a key idea.

Almost all of the energy available for fusion is already available when making helium, a fact due to the unusually low energy of helium. There's absolutely no point in making a bomb which has higher elements to get energy from fusion, even if they were set up with compression to do it, because burning light deuterium and tritium provides more energy PER GRAM than any other fuel.Sbharris 20:03, 30 May 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

There actually IS a point to fusion of SOME heavier elements. The boron-11 + proton reaction, while less energetic per gram than thermonuclear fusion, can actually proceed under inertial electrostatic confinement, using equipment orders of magnitude cheaper than thermonuclear fusion. This reaction also has the advantage of not emitting very many neutrons (the side reactions which emit neutrons are a few percent of the total reactions), so that neutron embrittlement of steel and other reactor structural materials is not the factor it would be in a thermonuclear fusion reactor. Proof of concept has already been furnished in the 1990s by Dr. Robert W. Bussard in the 1990s - a prototype inertial electrostatic confinement reactor small enough to fit on a desktop produced more power than it consumed (something that big-iron thermonuclear fusion reactors have yet to achieve). And finally, boron-11 plus proton emits electrons which can be recovered through the coils of the confinement grid and used as electrical power. I'd say this alone was the "point" in pursuing fusion of elements heavier than hydrogen isotopes (though you are certainly right that there's no point in looking at anything heavier than heavy hydrogen and lithium-6 for fusion fuel for bombs - nothing else gives you that sort of "bang" for the buck).

However, you're right on your refutation of the "physics teacher's" explanation of concentric shells of elements around a thermonuclear device creating subsequent fusion reactions. That's utter nonsense. Intense flux of x-rays or other photons (from the primary, fusion-boosted fission stage of the thermonuclear weapon) and the presence of a superheated plasma (from the heating of an aerogel foam called FOGBANK around the fusion fuel) trigger nuclear fusion in thermonuclear weapons. These conditions are NOT available outside the nuclear weapon casing loupgarous (talk) 23:19, 15 May 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

---
'Critics of the cobalt bomb concept point out that the mass needed would still be unreasonably large: 1 gram of 60Co per square kilometer of Earth's surface is 510 tonnes, and fallout does not reach all areas in equal proportions and dispersement (winds, etc.) [2]. While the sheer size and cost of such a weapon makes it unlikely to be built, it is technically possible because there is no maximum size limit for a thermonuclear bomb. However, the effects of nuclear weapons, including blast, physical damage and fallout, do not scale up linearly with weapon size or yield; the magnitude of these effects increases more gradually than the energy released by the nuclear detonation.'

Surely then if you get more bang relatively speaking from a smaller bomb, would making several smaller Cobalt bombs result in needing a smaller overall total mass of bomb? If so, what's the optimal mass for one? You could also reduce the effects of dispersion if you had lots of smaller explosions rather than relying on one big one to explode evenly across the globe.

I don't advocate anyone tries this of course, but surely it's the more logical approach. Arbitrary Logic (talk) 12:04, 3 July 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Answering your question, Glasstone and Dolan, in "The Effects of Nuclear Weapons," devote an entire chapter to the deposition of nuclear fallout in which they show that fallout tends to "clump up," not fall uniformly over the area downwind from the blast. Back during the days of frequent atmospheric nuclear testing in the Nevada Test Site, this meant that fallout would often be deposited quite far away from the site of an explosion; the area around New Orleans, Louisiana was one example of a place where fallout tended to concentrate because of the high rainfall there compared to other areas between there and Nevada.

My point is that the 510 tonnes figure is not a maximum amount, but a MINIMUM amount of cobalt required to blanket the Earth with fallout. It assumes perfect dispersion of the Cobalt-60 from the weapon to every corner of the Earth (something highly unlikely in real terms). If one were to use several smaller cobalt bombs as opposed to one huge one (the "one big bomb" concept goes back to before the Teller-Ulam and Sahkarov thermonuclear weapon designs made it possible to have a thermonuclear weapon that was deliverable by aircraft or missiles), one would actually need MORE cobalt to assure that every human habitation on Earth got its share of deadly radiation, because the plumes from the smaller thermonuclear devices would necessarily be narrower, more concentrated and disperse over a smaller area.

By the way, I agree with you that this is NOT something desirable in real terms (world nuclear powers, PLEASE don't try this at home), but logically, if the idea is to deter aggression by holding the human race hostage, one needs to do a complete job of it. That requires MORE cobalt than the floor figure of 510 tonnes - multiples of that figure, I would think.

The scary thing is that a millenialist like Ahmadinejihad or one of his colleagues might seriously seek to hasten the end of days by constructing a cobalt-jacketed nuclear device and detonating it - or threaten to use it in order to beat political concessions out of the rest of the world. The game analogy for nuclear strategy has changed from poker, to the chess of the late Cold War, and may degenerate to a grim variation on "tag" with the accession of Pakistan, North Korea, Iran, Syria and (if intelligence reports are at all accurate) Myanmar and Bangladesh to nuclear weapon power status.loupgarous (talk) 21:16, 14 May 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Article states: The fallout of other nuclear weapons has the appearance of sand or ground pumice, which falls back to the ground in short time, and can be filtered by even a handkerchief, unlike cobalt-60 COMMENT: This badly needs needs a ref. How do YOU know what cobalt metal processed through a nuclear fireball would come out physically? A similar oxidized particulate to what the rest of fallout is described as, is MY guess. Sbharris 20:03, 30 May 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Chapter IX of The Effects of Nuclear Weapons, "Residual Nuclear Radiation and Fallout," actually does address this issue directly. In the section "Radioactive Contamination from Nuclear Explosion, Land Surface and Subsurface Bursts (9.50)," this chapter describes what fallout looks like: "As the height of burst decreases, earth, dust, and other debris from the earth's surface are taken up into the fireball; an increasing proportion of the fission (and other radioactive) products of the nuclear explosion then condense onto particles of appreciable size. These contaminated particles range in diameter from less than 1 micron to several millimeters; the larger ones begin to fall back to earth even before the radioactive cloud has attained its maximum height, whereas the very smallest ones may remain suspended in the atmosphere for long periods."

There are also photographs and autoradiographs of fallout particles (Figures 9.50 a through 9.50d) in this chapter. So really, the citation already exists in the reference section. All that is required is an appropriate footnote.loupgarous (talk) 15:42, 5 April 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Apparently you didn't read my note very well. Just because we know what fallout looks like from a ground burst (silica and various silicate minerals processed through a close-nuclear fireball at millions of degrees) does not mean in the least that we know what cobalt metal looks like after being heated to those temperatures in a fireball. It's not obvious, and the experiment has never been done. Whether it could, or could, not be dealt with in the same manner as silica/silicate-based-fallout I do not believe is known. That is why the statement The fallout of other nuclear weapons has the appearance of sand or ground pumice, which falls back to the ground in short time, and can be filtered by even a handkerchief, unlike cobalt-60 needs a reference. "Unlike cobalt-60" is what needs reference. Cobalt-60 in what form?? We don't know what cobalt metal heated to thermonuclear temperatures looks like. As I said, my guess is aggregate particles of various cobalt oxides, much like you'd get in a lab bottle of one of the cobalt oxides (which I have seen-- the cobalt(II) oxide is green, and the higher oxides like cobalt(III) oxide are black). These are powders than can be an fineness you like; it's not at all obvious that these could not be filtered out like any other oxide powder. In a ground burst the cobalt oxides might be adsorbed and mixed with the silicate oxides and be mixed with them after melting, like silicate-based lava (or pumice) containing oxidized metals. I don't know the answer, but at least I know what I don't know. You don't seem to know what you don't know. SBHarris 17:19, 5 April 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You have a good point. Obviously, there aren't going to be any new atmospheric nuclear tests by any of the major nuclear powers; even India, Pakistan and North Korea have been circumspect about containing the fallout from their weapons tests in recent years. What we're considering is something no one's really done - trying purposefully to make as much atmospheric fallout and of as deadly a set of isotopes as possible - since the early days of Pacific thermonuclear weapon testing, when entire island ranges and vast expanses of ocean WERE subjected to lethal fallout after ONE test. We have to proceed from what we know about refractory metallurgy. 500 tonnes of cobalt would be somewhat of a heatsink, so that not all of it would be vaporized to micron-size particles in the fallout from a Szilard-type cobalt device; some of it would fallout as millimeter or larger particles, which (incidentally) would make the cobalt not spread as uniformly or cover as much territory as DevSolar apparently thinks it must. You're absolutely right that we don't really know what the cobalt would fallout as (how much of it would be micron-sized, how much millimeter-sized), and I can't think of any way short of an actual test to find out. I do, in that sense, "know what I don't know." I'm pretty sure NO ONE knows the answer to your question, because the fallout from a test like that would be prolific and people would not only have noticed, but the fatalities from radiation from such a test would have made headlines.

Since we can't cite a reference to the passage you refer to, it ought to be redacted to a statement that CAN be supported by published sources. In fact, that passage no longer exists in the article. I didn't remove it. Did you?loupgarous (talk) 19:01, 5 April 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Not that I remember. May be been somebody else who read this discussion 6 years ago. But I cannot remember many of my edits from 6 years ago, so no guarantees. SBHarris 21:12, 5 April 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I think that this article should be merged with the Salted bomb article. This is on a subset of that article, and doesn't really need its own page. --Apyule 14:56, 19 June 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Use In Science Fiction - The second Planet Of The Apes Film featured a doomsday weapon that was said to have a Cobolt caseing.

It appears that Salted bomb article doesn't exist anymore. Just wonderful. All info about non-cobalt (gold, zinc) bombs is deleted... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.212.29.187 (talk) 10:59, 6 February 2007 (UTC).Reply[reply]

This page should have been merged into the Salted Bomb article rather than vice versa. 131.111.103.224

I respectfully disagree. Most people enter memes as search terms. "Cobalt bomb" is a much more prevalent such meme than "Salted bomb." So from a viewpoint of "what serves most Wikipedia users best," I submit more of them will be searching for the term "Cobalt bomb" than "Salted bomb," since there is practically no popular literature reference to "salted bombs" by that name. Herman Kahn and Leo Szilard, among others, made "cobalt bomb" a very well-recognized concept and our users will encounter it in movies, television (for example, one episode of Star Trek: the original series makes direct reference to it), novels and other literature. It only makes sense to give them what they'll likely be looking for.loupgarous (talk) 03:26, 7 November 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

some version saved @: http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salted_bomb 74.12.96.200 06:53, 27 July 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks for giving us that link.loupgarous (talk) 03:26, 7 November 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Exactly how much is an "exceedingly large and impractical" amount? -- Noclevername 23:50, 20 February 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

510 tonnes of cobalt (the amount calculated to be required to make one gram of cobalt-60 available on the average for every square kilometer of the Earth's surface) is one-tenth the current annual production of that element in the Russian Federation (as an example). Diversion of that much cobalt for use in a single weapon would be economically crippling to any major commercial producer of the metal. So, to answer your question, the amount of cobalt calculated to be required to produce an actual "Doomsday device" in the form of a cobalt-jacketed thermonuclear weapon is also "an exceedingly large and impractical amount."

The problem is compounded by the irregular nature of nuclear fallout deposition; one cobalt bomb would, in practice, not suffice to sterilize the Earth of human life because its fallout would not reliably reach every corner of the Earth. Kahn and other theorists had proposed that a nation in deadly earnest (no pun intended) to use the cobalt bomb as a deterrent would be constrained to build several such devices, placing some of them in ocean-going freighters in order to have world-wide coverage of the Earth's surface with deadly radioactivity.loupgarous (talk) 20:49, 14 May 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

What is a salted bomb ? It's not explained here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.65.138.108 (talk) 20:00, 5 May 2007 (UTC).Reply[reply]

It's the general type of bomb where elements are added to contribute to the fallout. Cobalt bombs are but one example; other examples would be zinc, gold, or tantalum bombs. Unfortunately, salted bomb redirects to cobalt bomb, which doesn't make this clear. Xihr 20:04, 5 May 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I think the merge needs to be reverted (is this possible, I cant find much information on reverting merges) and the cobalt bomb article made a part of the salted bomb article as was stated earlier. Edd17 20:32, 29 June 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Or the salted bomb article could be recreated and then this article could be merged into it. Edd17 20:45, 29 June 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The most sensible solution would be to rename Cobalt bomb to Salted bomb, keeping the #REDIRECT there. Cobalt bomb is the most commonly discussed type of salted bomb, so it should also mention the other commonly-discussed types of salted bombs (e.g., zinc, gold). The general concept is of a salted bomb; a cobalt bomb is just one instance. Xihr 01:46, 1 July 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

So this article would be named Salted Bomb and Cobalt Bomb would redirect here? some of the text would need to be altered and the information on other types of bomb found as well (particularly the table). Edd17 20:14, 1 July 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Salted bomb and Cobalt bomb, yes. The bomb word shouldn't be capitalized, since it's not a proper name. Xihr 20:27, 1 July 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It appears that the statement mentioned here needs a fact check:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cobalt_bomb&diff=250458634&oldid=250274935

I'm not sure about it. Perhaps somebody knowledgeable about the topic and having lots of sources can go at it? Cornince (talk) 02:09, 9 November 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Australian peace activist and atmospheric scientist Brian Martin, in "The global health effects of nuclear war," Current Affairs Bulletin, Vol. 59, No. 7, December 1982, pp. 14-26. http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmartin/pubs/82cab/#n1 has covered this issue indirectly in the section of his paper "Overkill," in which he describes the fallacy of linear extrapolation of nuclear weapons effects to the world population at large succinctly. Earlier in the paper (the section "Fallout") Dr. Martin distinguishes between the sorts of fallout produced by differing sorts of nuclear detonations in terms of the dose of fallout delivered to nearby and worldwide populations.

The matter is covered in much more detail, but with similar conclusions to Dr. Martin's, in The Effects of Nuclear Weapons, Samuel Glasstone and Philip J. Dolan (editors), United States Department of Defense and Department of Energy, Washington, D.C., http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/www/effects/, considered the definitive technical work on the subject of nuclear weapons effects.

Their chapter on nuclear fallout http://www.alternatewars.com/WW3/WW3_Documents/Weapon_Effects/Effects_1977_09.pdf discusses in great detail the highly irregular deposition of fallout on the surface of the Earth after nuclear detonations. --vfrickey (talk) 05:43, 30 November 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I have placed citations supporting these criticisms of the "overkill" and "doomsday machine" concepts in the text of the article. loupgarous 19:51, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

The effects9.pdf is offline, we should replace it with another web links. `a5b (talk) 21:54, 26 May 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

sorry it took me so long to get back on this, I did find an alternate link for Chapter 9 of Glasstone and Dolan, "The Effects of Nuclear Weapons" and have altered the text.loupgarous (talk) 23:05, 6 November 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"The British did test a bomb that incorporated cobalt as an experimental radiochemical tracer (Antler/Round 1, 14 September 1957). This 1 kt device was exploded at the Tadje site, Maralinga range, Australia. The experiment was regarded as a failure and not repeated." http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Nwfaq/Nfaq1.html#nfaq1.6 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.76.37.154 (talk) 01:08, 25 February 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This heading's potentially misleading. Antler/Round 1 was not a test of a "Cobalt bomb" as we have defined it in our discussion.

According to the Nuclear Weapons Archive [1], Antler/Round 1 was a "Test of Pixie, a lightweight small diameter implosion system with a plutonium core. This test later became notorious because of the experimental use of cobalt metal pellets as a test diagnostic for measuring yield (presumably by estimating the neutron flux from the degree of activation of the target pellet). Discovery of (mildly) radioactive cobalt pellets around the test site later gave rise to rumors that the British had been developing a "cobalt bomb" radiological weapon."

The Pixie system was a pure fission device and not even close to the sort of intense neutron source required to transmute significant quantities of cobalt-59 into the intensely radioactive cobalt-60. It does not qualify remotely as a "cobalt bomb" for our purposes - it just had cobalt pellets in it to allow scientists to measure how much of the cobalt in them had been neutron-activated, thus giving an indirect indication of neutron flux from the detonation of the weapon and some indication of how efficient the implosion system was in 'burning' the plutonium core of the weapon loupgarous (talk) 03:42, 7 November 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"Critics" of the bomb say it won't destroy all life on the planet? Seriously? Do they see the destruction of all life as a desirable goal? Serendi^podous 09:18, 31 July 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Changed it. Serendi^podous 09:21, 31 July 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

present version cites Brian Martin. It seems to me though that the Martin article does not discuss the cobalt bomb, only "ordinary" nuclear bombs. — fnielsen (talk) 22:19, 30 January 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

There is no difference in the behavior of particulate matter from the fallout plume of a cobalt bomb compared to that from a more conventional nuclear weapon. If your grounds for removing my reference to Dr. Martin's paper were his failure to mention salted nuclear weapons specifically, than you have made a destructive change to the article by removing reference to a major flaw of the cobalt bomb concept, the fact that nuclear fallout does not fall uniformly, but according to how the particles in the fallout are deposited by precipitation and other climate factors. As Dr. Martin is a climatologist, he was speaking from expertise in his own field.loupgarous (talk) 11:12, 14 May 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The article cites the radioactive nuclide present in gold bombs as ¹⁹⁷Au, which in fact is the only stable isotope of gold (curiously nobody discovered that mistake over so many years). It seems to me that ¹⁹⁵Au with a half-life of 186 days is probably what the original author meant. Zhieaanm (talk) 12:13, 16 February 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Gold-198, not gold-197, is mentioned in the article as the end-product of a hypothetical "gold bomb." In the chapter of the High Energy Weapons Archive cited in the references, Carey Sublette specifically mentions that gold-197, which is the 100% naturally-abundant stable isotope of gold, would be transmuted into gold-198 (t 1/2=2.697 days) by the capture of a neutron from the nuclear device in a hypothetical "gold bomb."

Consulting the Chart of the Nuclides, there's no stable or even acceptably long-lived precursor to gold-195 which could be used to jacket a nuclear device. Gold-195 is the decay chain daughter of mercury-195, which has a half-life of 9.9 hours; the decay chain precursors of mercury-195 are even shorter-lived, as far back as you care to go. There's no way to get gold-195 out of a salted nuclear weapon.loupgarous (talk) 12:05, 14 May 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I recommend this (pages 290-292) as the source for the article- it's evaluation of Szilard claims....

http://books.google.pl/books?id=_Q0AAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA290&lpg=PA290&dq=Hydrogen-Cobalt+Bomb+in+bullletin+arnold&source=bl&ots=_W7CkxJQRk&sig=MWKbUTyq3tOIbM7H5kaVcBsEMBU&hl=pl&ei=ofG5TbG_C4ODOruypP0O&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.25.0.13 (talk) 11:19, 29 April 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I don't really understand why people keep coming back to this "510 tons" number. That's a mind experiment only: "How much cobalt would I need to bring 1 gram of cobalt to every square km of earth's surface?". What Szilárd was talking about when he thought up the cobalt bomb is that it would also kill the people in the target area who survived the initial blast. From a human standpoint, you only "need" to irradiate the arable land, which is only a fraction of the 30% of earth's surface that actually are land. And suddenly, you'll see that the ability to destroy all human life on earth is within the reach of an "arsenal of cobalt bombs".

Not that we need cobalt bombs (or any other "big bang" stuff) for that. We're doing a fine job exhausting natural resources and poisoning the ground just by negligence. To quote T.S. Eliot, the world will end with a whimper, not a bang. -- DevSolar (talk) 09:23, 10 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The figure is preceded by the phrase, "To provide a point of reference," so it's clear that the figure quoted is not intended to be taken literally, but rather as a measure of scale.

As for your other comments, Wikipedia talk pages are for the discussion of improvement of the actual article, not political soapboxes that have nothing to do with the subject of the article.  Xihr  03:24, 13 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

OK, scrap that personal comment of mine, that indeed was unnecessary. But I feel that this "point of reference" is an attempt to ridicule the whole concept of a "salted bomb", which is IMHO not NPOV. -- DevSolar (talk) 06:59, 20 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The 510 tonne number came to Szilard before the Teller-Ulam design made thermonuclear weapons deliverable. The first thermonuclear device was not only not deliverable, it pretty much filled a building at the test site. So Szilard was thinking in terms of militarizing the new weapon SOMEHOW. And at the time, what amounts to global radiological blackmail was the only option - the one thing the huge, undeliverable weapon COULD do is make neutrons, so Szilard came up with a way to make it a game-changer - by making enough Cobalt-60 to sterilize the Earth of human life.

However, to hit the all the arable land with a single Cobalt Bomb, you HAVE to cover the rest of the globe, too - you just have the one weapon and need to blanket the globe with it. However, 510 tonnes is still a reasonable aggregate number for the amount of cobalt-59 required to jacket either a single massive thermonuclear weapon with a yield in the multiple hundred-megaton range, or many smaller weapons - EACH of which must still be jacketed by enough cobalt (many tonnes) to cover their assigned downwind regions - that deployment by freighter seems the practical method of placing them where they must be in order to kill their assigned populations. You're still talking about a tenth of the annual production of cobalt of the Russian Federation. A megalomaniac, or perhaps a Millenialist like Ahmadinejihad who is presumably seeking to hasten the End of Days by mass destruction might still pursue such a course with one or more cobalt bombs, each filling a freighter, detonated off the US West Coast where prevailing winds would carry the cobalt over the continental US.

It would make more sense, though, to just blanket North America with EMP from one or more nuclear weapons detonated in the ionosphere in such a way that the pulse propagates through our electrical grid and destroys every semiconductor in the US and Canada. That alone would irreparably destroy our national infrastructure and cause massive economic and social chaos, and according to some calculations, the deaths of two-thirds of the US populace from starvation, disease and civil violence. And it would be incomparably cheaper to do this than to attempt the Cobalt Bomb.loupgarous (talk) 01:19, 7 November 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I don't understand, really, why people keep coming up with strange examples, but don't add up the number and spread this BS about bombs "filling a freighter"...? Again, let's start at the 510-ton-for-the-whole-earth. OK, so that's 1/10 of the annual production of Russia. Unlikely, I grant you that, but nowhere near impossible. But you don't need 510 tons of cobalt to build one bad sucker of a salted bomb! Basic math. Area of the U.S.A.? 9.8 million square kilometers. That's less than 1/50th of the earth surface. 1/50th of 510 tons is around 10 tons, or 1/500th of the anual production of Russia. That fits on a lorry trailer, for sterilizing all of the U.S.A.. You'd need much less than that to irradiate the whole Boston-New York-Washington area - a bomb that fits on a pickup. At that scale, the whole bla-bla about unequal distribution of the fallout or nonlinear scaling of effect is debunked for what it is: Completely missing the point. Building a cobalt bomb is not about "sterilizing the earth", it's about giving a comparatively small nuclear weapon very severe and long-lasting effects far exceeding the actual yield. -- DevSolar (talk) 12:37, 16 December 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You've never seen a fallout plume map, have you, DevSolar? I have. The Effects of Nuclear Weapons (the pertinent chapter, "Residual Nuclear Radiation and Fallout," is accessible as a .pdf in the reference list in this article) shows that fallout is not deposited evenly downwind from a nuclear detonation. So my point remains valid - if the point of the exercise is Szilard's original thesis - a weapons system which is capable of destroying all life on the planet Earth (which I agree with previous posters is a "thought experiment" more than a valid specification for a weapons system), then you have to make enough cobalt-60 to cover the habitable Earth (not just the "arable Earth," as you say). Many smaller cobalt bombs would use roughly the same amount of cobalt as the one large weapon. In terms of a practical weapons system, the multi-megaton weapons the Soviets (and their Russian successors) developed to destroy ICBMs in their silos did much of what you posit smaller cobalt bombs would have done as radiological weapons, for they would have landed in the midwest regions of the US with massive ground bursts, creating huge swaths of radioactivity downwind and killing thousands and hundreds of thousands in unprotected areas. The difference would be that this radioactivity is sufficiently short-lived that persons behind thick enough walls for a period between two weeks to a month would be able to step back out into survivably low radiation fields. But I concede your point - partly- a semi-trailer could, conceivably, carry a thermonuclear device jacketed with enough cobalt to create a plume of cobalt-60 downwind and make some of the area downwind pretty much permanently lethal. But as a close reading of the chapter of The Effects of Nuclear Weapons we've cited as a reference in this article shows, the area contaminated would not be uniformly contaminated - not a big continuous block of contaminated land, but a blotchy stretch of land with many areas free of contamination or lightly contaminated. To completely depopulate even the metropolitan areas you mention would require MANY, MANY smaller cobalt bombs with overlapping fallout plumes. To systematically depopulate the Earth WOULD require an aggregate amount of cobalt for weapon jackets not much less than Szilard's estimate. Perhaps more.loupgarous (talk) 15:10, 5 April 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Consider: "Leó Szilárd [...] suggested that an arsenal of cobalt bombs would be capable of destroying all human life on Earth." (Emphasis mine to point out plural.) The next two paragraphs go on blurbing about a single (singular) bomb, about how the effects wouldn't "scale".

I repeat my accusation: That's not "providing a point of reference", that's smoke and mirrors. I suggest removing the two paragraphs in question, and - if necessary or desirable - replace it with some technical information on how much irradiation would result from a bomb of so-and-so much yield and so-and-so much cobalt and what the effects would be. But this "510 tons" blurb is simply misleading. -- DevSolar (talk) 11:45, 16 February 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

That's why we have cited The Effects of Nuclear Weapons, chapter IX, "Residual Nuclear Radiation and Fallout," in the references section - it contains the necessary conceptual information to allow readers to estimate the requirements for blanketing the inhabitable Earth with nuclear radiation. I recommend you read the chapter in its entirety before persisting in your objections to the 510-ton figure for the amount of cobalt needed to do that job. Otherwise, you're overlooking facts and holding fast to your own opinions on this issue.loupgarous (talk) 15:15, 5 April 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Blissfully ignoring the whole previous section. The "510 ton" number was calculated from the assumption that one would have to blanket the entire planet with fallout from a single bomb. I don't even challenge the calculation, but the number it results in is not about the subject of the article, nor what Szilárd talked about. "Cobalt bomb" != "doomsday device". That number is a fallacy, and does nothing for the article. -- DevSolar (talk) 13:06, 25 May 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Referring you and other readers to the section immediately prior to this one - just upstream - where I address your objections. Repeating them here does nothing for the article - nor does your repetition of your objections here. The number "510 tons" is of considerable value to the article because it's a reference to an easily-confirmed and simple-to-understand conceptual calculation by Leo Szilard which gives readers of this article a very good rough estimate of the amount of cobalt needed to be neutron-activated and disseminated in the Earth's atmosphere to approximate a "cobalt bomb." Your objections, if implemented in the article by removing the "510 ton" reference, would destroy something of value in the article to the extent of constituting vandalism.loupgarous (talk) 08:03, 25 August 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The calculation cited was not made by Szilard. And you proved the whole point of my argument all over again: If I take a low-yield bomb, let's say a 5-kiloton device, and jacket it in Co-59, it's a Cobalt bomb. I don't have to make it so big that it wipes out all life on earth. What makes it a Cobalt bomb is the Co-59 jacket, not its yield or its destructive potential. Talking about how much it would take to make a Cobalt bomb into a doomsday device is non-topical. The quote by Szilard about the potential of an arsenal of these bombs is already borderline to the article; that redneck "doomsday device" calculation is completely remote, and adequately addressed in the article by linking the corresponding papers after "Szilard suggested [...], but this is disputed". (Which is a long shot already, as neither paper mentions either "cobalt" or "Szilard", not to mention "510", so your point here is WP:OR through and through. Oh, and my objections apparently have consent for almost half a year now, since the reference has been removed long ago. Accusing me of vandalism is a bit rich. -- DevSolar (talk) 08:14, 27 August 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Additional information. The actual paper where Szilárd makes his statements is the April 1950 issue of the "Bulletin of the Atomic Scientist".

Q: "Will dispersal [of population and industries] actually help if H-bombs are used not for blast but for radioactivity?"

Szilárd: "In this case, it will not help at all. [...] it is very easy to rig an H-bomb, on purpose, so that it should produce very dangerous radioactivity. [...] Of course, it takes very many less H-bombs to kill all Russians by radioactivity or to kill all Americans by radioactivity than to kill all people. But you have to get this radioactive material to Russia or America."

I.e., the very crude calculations he makes in a footnote to the article (or the ones James R. Arnold does in the October issue to ridicule the concept) might be for a global Doomsday devices, but that's only because they had yet to hear about ICBMs, or Assymetric warfare, and thought about global nuclear determent only. A Cobalt bomb might be built to be a doomsday device, but it might just as well be built to fit in the trunk of your car (or a MIRV warhead) to render a Metropolitan area uninhabitable. -- DevSolar (talk) 13:20, 27 August 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The concept of using cobalt bombs as doomsday machines isn't completely impractical. even distribution of the cobalt 60 can be accomplished by using numerous bombs detonated in low sub orbit. The clouds of vaporized material would travel great distances and expand broadly before falling to the ground. Simple calculations can be made for how many bombs, and how much cobalt required. Based on expectations of loss of material thrown to escape velocity and trajectories, time to fall, and air resistance to get the ideal altitude and speed to detonate the bombs for maximal dispersion to get to the minimal amount of 510 tons of cobalt 60 evenly distributed. 98.164.65.148 (talk) 08:37, 25 March 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Another thing wrong with the 510 ton figure is that ir's a "back of the notebook" figure. It's based on the fact that 1 gram of CO60 at 1 meter is lethal in a matter of minutes. The "back of the notebook" figure simply scaled that amount to the square meterage of the Earth. But if the earth was evenly covered with CO 60 there would only need be less for than 510 tons. A target person exposed would be exposed to 1 gram on the meter he is standing on plus the 8 grams on the surrounding 8 meters plus the 16 grams on the meterage surrounding that and so on to the horizon. In fact the material doesn't have to fall to the ground. If the material was uniformly distributed high in the atmosphere the entire arc of the sky would irradiate the ground target with even more than a target person would get if he were standing on a ground covered in it, and only getting the amount recieved from the arc below his feet to the horizon. "Back of the notebook calculations" with this consideration is that 510 tons is an order of magnitude more than needed. Ten times more than needed. 51 tons would have the same effect. That is the effect of 1 gram at 1 meter being lethal in a few minutes. 98.164.91.12 (talk) 14:59, 2 April 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@DevSolar is correct, this is WP:Original Research, and should just be deleted regardless of whether we deem it correct or not. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 04:17, 3 April 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I've once red that a hydrogen bomb covered with a cobalt shield would make the bomb up to a 1000 times more powerful, but not more radioactive thow. I think the source was "Guiness World Records" (swedish edition) 1974 or 1975. Boeing720 (talk) 19:24, 5 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

No recognized authority on nuclear weapon design or kinetics would confirm what you "red." It's wrong, regardless of where you "red" it.

Covering a "hydrogen bomb" (a thermonuclear weapon) in cobalt almost certainly wouldn't make it much more powerful.

The casing of a thermonuclear weapon (specifically, the hohlraum) can increase its yield by containing and focussing the energy of the primary (fission) stage - causing the secondary (fusion) stage to work more efficiently. Also, in the "fission-fusion-fission" (three-stage) thermonuclear weapon, uranium-238 is used in the outer casing to take advantage of the dense storm of neutrons coming out of the fusion stage of the weapon, causing fast fission of the uranium - the explosive yield of such a weapon can be double that of the same weapon without a uranium hohlraum (and, in fact, the United States had a 25-megaton thermonuclear weapon which used this specific design to achieve such a high explosive yield). The disadvantage of such weapons is that they're intensely "dirty," - they make a lot of radioactive fallout. In fact, over the first month or so after detonation, the fallout from a three-stage thermonuclear weapon is more intensely radioactive than that of a cobalt bomb - but that fallout decays much faster as well, its radioactivity dropping quickly after that first month or so.

By contrast, putting cobalt in the casing of a thermonuclear weapon wouldn't increase the explosive yield, because the scattering of neutrons back toward the primary and secondary stages of the weapon is much less important than the capture of neutrons by the cobalt. The whole reason for putting cobalt around a thermonuclear weapon in the first place is not to scatter or reflect neutrons, but to make radioactive cobalt-60 to land away from the detonation site and kill people by radiation.

Jacketing a thermonuclear weapon with cobalt would increase its induced radioactivity by increasing the radioactivity of its fallout plume in proportion to:

- the amount of cobalt used,

- the neutron flux of the weapon available where the cobalt is, and

- its explosive force (which is what would spread the radioactive cobalt you would be making)

by adding very highly radioactive cobalt-60 and other radionuclides to the fallout and spreading it widely across the Earth (if the weapon had enough explosive yield to do that).

So your source (or what you took away from it) is wrong on both those counts.

You need to learn how to research using the World Wide Web, write down what you read, and read some more after that so you understand what you read.loupgarous (talk) 08:24, 25 August 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I think the article and the cited references make it quite clear that you either misunderstood, or simply reinforcing that "Guiness World Records" might not be the best source for physics. -- DevSolar (talk) 12:18, 31 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The paragraph which compares fission product gammas to C0-60 seems a bit off to me. It reads as if the fission products would be a more serious radiation hazard but this is only the case if the mass of fission products was equal to the mass of cobalt-60 produced. In reality the Cobalt will be the biggest contributor to dose from day 1.Hairykrishna (talk) 10:18, 22 October 2014 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I agree, I would think it would all depend on the mass of cobalt used. The radiation case is certainly the most massive part of H bombs; if it were made of cobalt you would expect the mass of ⁶⁰Co produced would exceed the mass of the fission products produced, although with their higher atomic mass perhaps the fission products are more intensely radioactive. However, for ground bursts there's also the contribution from radioactivity induced in dirt and ground matter vaporized by the fireball. Perhaps this source dwarfs the contribution to fallout from the bomb components. --Chetvorno^TALK 14:30, 22 October 2014 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I also have some doubts about the dismissal of the cobalt bomb in the first paragraph:

"Fission products are as deadly as neutron-activated cobalt. The standard high-fission thermonuclear weapon is automatically a weapon of radiological warfare, as dirty as a cobalt bomb."

Leó Szilárd was certainly one of the most experienced nuclear weapon physicists of his day, a part of the original Manhattan Project. I would think he would have understood these issues. If there were doubts about increasing the radiological yield of a bomb significantly by this technique, I would think he wouldn't have risked his reputation by announcing it publicly on the radio. --Chetvorno^TALK 14:30, 22 October 2014 (UTC)Reply[reply]

An extremely relevant paper would seem to be this one; http://journals.lww.com/health-physics/Abstract/1960/04000/Cobalt_60_Bombs.8.aspx Unfortunately pay walled and I don't have access. The abstract suggests he has done the calculations for various scenarios. Hairykrishna (talk) 16:32, 22 October 2014 (UTC)Reply[reply]

A three-stage nuclear device in the high megaton range (~25Mt) would emit quite a lot of deadly fission products and send them out over a very large area, because the uranium-238 fast-fissioned in the device's hohlraum would create a large number of intensely radioactive fission products, and if it were detonated in a ground burst (as a counterforce weapon might be in order to "dig out" silo-based ICBMs or enemy command bunkers), then the neutron-activated sodium and aluminum from the soil would also be very lethal.

However, this lethal fallout would be so short-lived that after a month to six weeks in a well-shielded fallout shelter, humans would be able to step out for increasingly long periods to do work, and after a couple of months, the acute danger from radiation (short-term illness or death) would be gone or very slight. Fallout with large amounts of cobalt-60 would be lethal to anyone remaining out for more than a few hours for a hundred years or so. The bottom of the article explains this and is adequately sourced.

That being said, there IS a very real difference between an "ordinary" thermonuclear weapon and a cobalt bomb. loupgarous (talk) 00:35, 23 December 2014 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I've taken the initiative to change the second paragraph and expand that material to be more accurate:

"Fission products are as deadly as neutron-activated cobalt in the first week or two following detonation, after a month to six weeks, the fission products from a thermonuclear weapon decay to levels tolerable by humans. The three-stage thermonuclear weapon is thus automatically a weapon of radiological warfare, but its fallout decays much more rapidly than that of a cobalt bomb, so that areas irradiated by fallout from even a large-yield thermonuclear weapon become habitable after a month or two; a cobalt bomb's fallout would render affected areas uninhabitable for up to a century.

Initially, gamma radiation from the fission products of an equivalent size fission-fusion-fission bomb are much more intense than Co-60: 15,000 times more intense at 1 hour; 35 times more intense at 1 week; 5 times more intense at 1 month; and about equal at 6 months. Thereafter fission drops off rapidly so that Co-60 fallout is 8 times more intense than fission at 1 year and 150 times more intense at 5 years. The very long-lived isotopes produced by fission would overtake the 60Co again after about 75 years. [5]

Another important point in considering the effects of cobalt bombs is that deposition of fallout is not even throughout the path downwind from a detonation, so that there are going to be areas relatively unaffected by fallout and places where there is unusually intense fallout, so that the Earth would not be universally rendered lifeless by a cobalt bomb. [6] Also, the fallout and devastation after a nuclear detonation don't scale up linearly with the explosive yield (equivalent to tons of TNT), so that the concept of "overkill" - the idea that one can simply estimate the destruction created by a thermonuclear weapon of the size postulated by Leo Szilard's "cobalt bomb" thought experiment by extrapolating from the destruction caused by thermonuclear weapons of smaller yields - is fallacious. [7]"

The added text is because a prior editor deleted my previous reference to the two major weaknesses of the cobalt bomb concept - irregular deposition of fallout preventing total destruction of life from a single cobalt bomb, and that destruction and fallout don't scale up linearly with nuclear weapons' explosive yield (the concept of "overkill"). loupgarous (talk) 01:32, 23 December 2014 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'm not so sure about this. Reference [7] basically explains why irregular deposition is less of an issue with a very large cobalt bomb. A large amount of cobalt would end up in the stratosphere and get much more evenly distributed around the globe over a period of months to years. The long cobalt half life means that this fallout remains dangerous, unlike 'normal' fallout distributed in such a way. Also, as discussed earlier, the masses matter. Statements that the gamma dose from the fission products is higher initially than the cobalt dose is weapon dependant and likely to be flat out wrong for any deliberately salted device. Hairykrishna (talk) 16:58, 23 December 2014 (UTC)Reply[reply]

First, the discussion in the section "Appearance of cobalt after going through a nuke fireball?" points to a lacuna in our knowledge of how fallout from a massively cobalt-salted bomb would be produced. For existing nuclear weapons, Glasstone and Dolan, in Chapter IX of The Effects of Nuclear Weapons, "Residual Nuclear Radiation and Fallout, section 9/50 "Radioactive Contamination from Nuclear Explosion, Land Surface and Subsurface Bursts" says "As the height of burst decreases, earth, dust, and other debris from the earth's surface are taken up into the fireball; an increasing proportion of the fission (and other radioactive) products of the nuclear explosion then condense onto particles of appreciable size. These contaminated particles range in diameter from less than 1 micron to several millimeters; the larger ones begin to fall back to earth even before the radioactive cloud has attained its maximum height, whereas the very smallest ones may remain suspended in the atmosphere for long periods."

The empirical results of above-ground nuclear testing are the basis for Dr. Martin's statement in what had been Reference 7 (now Reference 10),

""The Global Effects of Nuclear War", in the section "Overkill":

"But this factor of ten is misleading, since linear extrapolation does not apply. Suppose the bomb dropped on Hiroshima had been 1000 times as powerful, 13Mt. It could not have killed 1000 times as many people, but at most the entire population of Hiroshima perhaps 250,000. Re-doing the 'overkill' calculation using these figures gives not a figure of ten but of only 0.02. This example shows that crude linear extrapolations of this sort are unlikely to provide any useful information about the effects of nuclear war.

'Overkill' can be meaningful if applied to specific targets which will be attacked by several nuclear weapons.[50] But applied to the entire world population the concept of 'overkill' is misleading. By the same logic it might be said that there is enough water in the oceans to drown everyone ten times."

We just don't know enough about how a massive amount of cobalt surrounding one or more high-yield (many megatons) nuclear weapons will fall out of the atmosphere. Martin does mention that much fallout from high-yield weapons would rise to the atmosphere, but he is describing fallout from existing weapons, not weapons which are jacketed by many tonnes of cobalt. Hopefully we'll never have the empirical knowledge to describe how the fallout from such bombs would behave, but it's probable that reasonably accurate models of such detonations and fallout could be created with modern computers.

As far as the gamma emitters from nuclear detonations at ground level being initially many times that from Co-60 emanating from a salted weapon, that's also empirical knowledge. We know that sodium and aluminum from dirt drawn into the fireball of a megaton ground burst does get neutron activated, and along with fission products from either the weapon primary or fast fission products from the third stage of a very large-yield thermonuclear device constitute the most pressing danger - early fallout. Quoting Martin again:

"If the bomb is exploded at or near the surface of the earth, a large amount of dust, dirt and other surface materials will also be lifted with the updraft. Some of the fission products will adhere to these particles, or onto the material used to construct the bomb. The very largest particles - stones and pebbles - will fall back to earth in a matter of minutes or hours. Lighter material - ash or dust - will fall to earth within a few days, or perhaps be incorporated in raindrops. The radioactive material which returns to earth within 24 hours is called early or local fallout. It is the most dangerous.

As mentioned earlier, the fission products contain a mixture of different types of radioactive atoms, some of which decay quickly and others much more slowly. A rough rule of thumb is that as time increases by a factor of seven, the average decay rate drops by a factor of ten. Thus, compared to the decay rate one hour after the explosion, the rate will be about ten per cent at 7 hours, about one per cent at two days (about 7 x 7 hours), and about 0.1 per cent at two weeks (7 x 2 days). (After about six months the fall in the decay rate becomes faster than this.) For this reason, exposure to early fallout is the greatest danger due to radioactivity generated by nuclear explosions."

That sums up the reason for the statement in the proposed second paragraph to which you objected. I welcome any sources you can provide which present alternative accounts of the origin, nature or environmental fate of early fallout from large-yield thermonuclear weapons. loupgarous (talk) 06:26, 19 May 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply]

In this article, this passage concerns me:

"In 2015, a Russian nuclear-armed torpedo design was apparently leaked. It has been speculated that the warhead would be a cobalt bomb, designed for "creating wide areas of radioactive contamination, rendering them unusable for military, economic or other activity for a long time".^[1]

The preceding paragraph states "As far as is publicly known, no cobalt bombs have ever been built", yet we give the Russian government space in this article to claim they've done just that thing.

I don't want to take unilateral action, but I would like other editors, especially experienced ones either in wikipedia ethical issues or in nuclear weapons design-related issues, to comment on whether mention of a supposed Russian cobalt warhead torpedo violates our guidelines WP:SOAPBOX or WP:PROMOTION.

Specifically, the "leaked" assertion seems to contradict other statements in this article which are based on citations from secondary sources which are reviews of the literature on salted nuclear weapons (such as Glasstone and Dolan's classic work The Effects of Nuclear Weapons which, over several editions spanning decades, has been the standard reference work for the US military and other agencies charged with preparation for nuclear war consequences).

Are we giving the Russian government a soapbox in this article from which to make exaggerated claims for one of their nuclear weapons systems by including the blockquoted text in the article's third paragraph?

• YES My opinion is that, while the sentence/paragraph in question quotes a news article by a reliable source (the BBC), the assertion described in the article is propaganda intended to change US foreign policy by creating fear, doubt and uncertainty regarding parts of US foreign policy. loupgarous (talk) 01:02, 16 November 2015 (UTC)Reply[reply]
• Don't know I don't think the text should be included in the article, but I think the relevant policy is WP:CRYSTALBALL, not WP:SOAPBOX. Whether or not this is a deliberate leak by the Russian government (and I don't think any editor here is qualified to judge), there is no reason to believe it is credible. The BBC article is based on rumor and "speculation", as it admits. There is also no credible evidence that this weapon system is a cobalt bomb; the article quotes speculation in the newspaper Rossiiskaya Gazeta for this. Russian newspapers are definitely not RSs on the Russian government. Do any reliable secondary sources believe this is a serious reference to a cobalt bomb? See WP:PSTS. As long as the BBC article is the only unsupported source we shouldn't include it. WP does not print rumors. --Chetvorno^TALK 02:36, 16 November 2015 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Good point, and one I'd totally missed - thanks. WP:SENSATION would seem to apply here, too. It's not like fact-checking played a large role in BBC's news cycle on this story. loupgarous (talk) 01:37, 17 November 2015 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The comment I'm requesting, therefore, ought to be changed to be more along the lines Chetvorno discussed and I expanded on -

• Should the text

"In 2015, a Russian nuclear-armed torpedo design was apparently leaked. It has been speculated that the warhead would be a cobalt bomb, designed for "creating wide areas of radioactive contamination, rendering them unusable for military, economic or other activity for a long time".^[2]

be removed from the article on the grounds that it's not sufficiently factual - BBC basically commented on what we'd consider an unreliable source (Russian state-owned media) reporting an implausible technical development for which there's no independent secondary source confirmation? loupgarous (talk) 03:00, 1 March 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• Yes, because this passage isn't just blowback through BBC from a source of limited reliability, but it also smacks of "silly season" reporting of an implausible event or technology (the other references in this article support the previous statement "As far as is publicly known, no cobalt bombs have ever been built"). It falls afoul of WP:CRYSTALBALL and WP:SENSATION. loupgarous (talk) 03:03, 1 March 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I propose to remove the phrase "Furthermore the triple "taiga" nuclear salvo test, as part of the preliminary March 1971 Pechora–Kama Canal project, produced substantial amounts of Co-60, with this fusion generated neutron activation product being responsible for about half of the gamma dose now (2011) at the test site, with photosynthesizing vegetation existing all around the lake that was formed". There are two references, both of them say nothing that any cobalt bomb test or something like this was performed there. One of these articles notes (with many examples) that "many decades after detonation, radionuclides such as 60Co, 137Cs, 152Eu, 154Eu and 241Am may be considered as rather common long-lived man-made γ-ray emitters detectable at the sites of the tower, ground surface or underground nuclear explosions." The authors explain the presence of Co-60: "We assume that the high level of the ground contamination by 60Co might be associated with neutron activation of large quantities of metals used for creation of the wells (bore-holes) <...> and the nuclear devices. This assumption is in agreement with the opinion of Lurie (2002) who supposes that the 60Co contamination at the “Taiga” site has originated from the constructive materials of the explosive devices." No need to note here any site contaminated by Co-60. --V1adis1av (talk) 18:35, 2 December 2015 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Agree. Unlike the Antler:Round test in Australia, any cobalt-60 contamination at the triple "taiga" nuclear salvo test was incidental to the test, not purposeful in any way. The purpose of that test was simply to dig huge holes in the ground, not to investigate ways of salting a bomb to create a specific kind of fallout or, as with Antler:Round, to use neutron-activated cobalt as a marker of the devices' efficiency. Otherwise, we'd have to include the "Castle Bravo" thermonuclear weapon test and others in that series which unintentionally contaminated a huge swath of the Pacific Ocean when the lithium in their dry fusion 'fuel' unexpectedly was neutron-activated to tritium and more than doubled its nuclear yield. loupgarous (talk) 17:51, 17 February 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Before I proceeded, I chose to wait for more input, we haven't gotten any. So I looked at the abstract for the radiological study that section references. It says:

• "In situ measurements, performed in August 2009, revealed elevated levels of the γ-ray dose rate in air on the banks of the lake “Taiga”. Two hot spots were detected on the eastern bank of the lake. The excess of the γ-ray ::radiation is attributable to the man-made radionuclides 60Co and 137Cs. The current external γ-ray dose rate to a human from the contaminations associated with the “Taiga” experiment was between 9 and 70 μSv per week. Periodic monitoring the site is recommended."

That's different from what the phrase in our article says:

• "...the triple "taiga" nuclear salvo test, as part of the preliminary March 1971 Pechora–Kama Canal project, produced substantial amounts of Co-60, with this fusion generated neutron activation product being responsible for about half of the gamma dose now...."

"Two hot spots" is a whole different thing from "substantial amounts of Co-60". The reference's abstract goes on to say the air dose from that Cobalt-60 is in the low micro-Sievert range, which while significant from the point of view of someone wanting to placard the two hot-spots to keep other researchers' radiation dosage as low as reasonably achievable, is smaller than "substantial". Two "hot-spots" aren't substantial, they're where some neutron-activated cobalt fell immediately after the nuclear detonation. So I'm making the change that V1adis1av proposed, with which I concur, on grounds of accuracy. loupgarous (talk) 16:46, 30 August 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It is necessary to write about the project "Status-6", is a full article http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Статус-6, no accidental leaks do not happen, cobalt filling as one of the variants of the torpedo

No, it's not. The only sources we have documenting that project are either primary "leaked" documents, popular-audience news reports which relay very sketchy details from those documents which fail under WP:SENSATION, or that wikipedia article, which is also not admissible as a source to document a statement in wikipedia.

If the Russian Ministry of Defense cares to publish documentation of this project which can then be reviewed by responsible secondary sources (such as Jane's or SIPRI), the secondary sources evaluating the report would be usable. But neither the wikipedia article or the sensationalistic BBC coverage are. loupgarous (talk) 18:03, 17 February 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply]

109.252.20.154 (talk) 08:34, 28 April 2016 (UTC) military secrets don't want to release. you want to see top-secret development and know technical specifications ? not that ! for several years, if ever ! technical data of such systems will always be top secret. your assertion that this is just a leak about a sensation, it is not factual. apparently none of you speaks Russian and can not read and understand the texts. on the Russian page is given a lot of links, including links to government contracts, example: https://zakupki.kontur.ru/31502576410 . in addition there is a very interesting site http://militaryrussia.ru/ and for example the data on the apparatus "SKIF" http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-746.html . if you search the site militaryrussia.ru you can find information about many things and references to the sources.Reply[reply]

None of those are "responsible secondary sources," which are needed to document a fact cited in a Wikipedia article. They are all primary sources, which cannot be used to document a fact in a Wikipedia article unless a good secondary source is given which can support the fact without the primary source. While I do read, write and speak Russian acceptably well, I defer to the editors in wikipedia.ru who maintain the page to which you refer. Unless you can produce an secondary source not controlled by the Russian government and specializing in weapon systems to document the statements you wish made here, they won't survive review by editors familiar with Wikipedia guidelines. loupgarous (talk) 05:05, 19 May 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The statement "In a fission bomb, it has been suggested, the weapon's tamper could be made of cobalt. In a fusion bomb the radiation case around the weapon, normally made of 238U, could be made of cobalt. These changes would reduce the explosive power (yield) of the weapon somewhat." is unsourced.

Unless someone can supply a secondary source for this statement (which makes assertions not common knowledge) I'll remove it after a few days. loupgarous (talk) 05:13, 19 May 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Silence (lack of the requested source for this statement) gives assent; I've removed the unsourced statement mentioned above. loupgarous (talk) 18:05, 23 May 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This looks like its written from an urban point of view which incorrectly sees the world only as a collection of cities. In reality, the destruction of urban centers, much like the fall of Rome, would benefit humanity and greatly develop the world. 63.152.59.249 (talk) 11:39, 28 May 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Let's tackle your first premise first. You don't really seem to get the idea of cobalt bombs - if the point of the exercise were to just kill people in cities, the world's existing nuclear arsenal could do the job well. Cobalt bombs were conceived of by Leo Szilard as a thought exercise of how to use the then-new thermonuclear device, which wasn't available in a form movable onto a bomber or nuclear missile warhead at the time. So his idea is that they could be surrounded by a huge layer (his estimate was 540 metric tons) of cobalt, much of which would be vaporized, carried aloft in the atmosphere, and fall all over the Earth. Not just on cities, but everywhere, to kill everyone and every animal.

The whole point of cobalt bombs is to kill everyone, farmers, Indians out in pueblos, Inuit out on ice barrens - not just the people in cities you seem to think we could get along without. Statistically, you'd die, too.

Show me where we said "Cobalt bombs are really bad because the cities would die." We said no such thing.

Your second premise, that destruction of the world's metropolises "would benefit humanity and greatly develop the world" is without any facts backing it at all.

What would happen is conjectural, but certainly among the predictable results is a dramatic loss of life in the countryside as well, for reasons I just mentioned. Cobalt from salted bombs may not fall from the sky absolutely uniformly, but we saw from the Castle Bravo thermonuclear weapon test that it'll cover huge areas, so that everyone you think would benefit from the death of the world's large cities would be just as dead, except for small groups of people in isolated areas. If they live on land clean enough of fallout to farm, ranch or hunt on, good for them. But they wouldn't be better off without the big cities. Antibiotics and vaccines that now protect them from dying in horrible ways won't be there. The "law" won't be there, even to the extent it now protects people. Farmers could be shot or enslaved for their food, their families treated in ways I won't describe here. They sure won't be "greatly developing the world".

As a rule, "after the War" science fiction isn't that helpful in understanding the probable post-nuclear world, but Walter Miller, Jr's A Canticle for Leibowitz gives a reasonable view of what post-nuclear Earth would be like. Among the few survivors left, Local demagogues then would act like national demagogues do now, and no one would be happy but the few at the top of the food chain. loupgarous (talk) 15:49, 30 August 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'm pretty sure "overkill" refers to the diminishing returns from more fire, or larger shells, at the same targets. For example, Clark, Keefer, and Walton, "Foe: A Model Representing Company Actions" uses "overkill" in that sense in 1960. 173.66.5.216 (talk) 20:43, 5 July 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Would it be worth mentioning that the Cobalt bomb has been used as a doomsday bomb in fiction? --2606:A000:7D44:100:1C02:4825:EBE2:C72C (talk) 11:55, 3 April 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It's covered already in the bottom of the article, feel free to edit the article to make it clearer. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 05:40, 5 April 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 08:04, 11 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]