This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This is a talk archive for the incarnation of the Deaf/Deafness article that existed during 2005–2008. The corresponding article's history is now at Talk:Deafness/Old history. |
For those that have just tuned in: The page "deaf" was once a redirect to hearing impairment. It then became a page about deafness and Deaf culture. It was like this for a while. The title was changed to "Deafness". Then much of the content was merged with hearing impairment and replaced by new content which later became (through another page rename) Models of deafness. Deaf became a redirect back to hearing impairment for a while and then was changed into a disambiguation page, which grew to become a page specifically addressing the term "deaf" and the disambiguation notice removed.
--Pengo 22:45, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I suggest creating a disambiguation page between the words "deaf" and "Deaf." "Deaf" with a capital "D" is the accepted and correct manner with which to distinguish "the absence of hearing" from the culture of Deaf people. "deaf" with a lower-case "d" can include all auditory related issues, such as JFW’s “hearing impairment.” I disapprove very strongly with this terminology as a description for people with an absence of hearing, but none the less it is term that is still used today and thus has a place in this objective encyclopedia. However, it cannot be applied to those who consider themselves “Deaf.” Nearly no one in the Deaf community considers the fact that they cannot hear an “impairment.” Thus, a disambiguation between “deaf’ and “Deaf” could serve to correctly distinguish the auditory issues from the cultural issues. MLJhill
for the vast amount of the readers, "deaf" is acoustic receptive impairment, not its resultant social issues
--Jfdwolff (taken from edit summary, when redirect changed to hearing impairment.
Sorry, but deaf, as a noun, means "the deaf" (not the condition itself). and "Deaf individual" is emphatically not about social issues, but a disambiguation page.
--Pengo 23:34, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I will respond on Talk:Deaf individual. At any rate, I am pleased that you have kept the redirect. If someone reads: Ludwig van Beethoven went deaf, they would probably prefer to read hearing impairment first... JFW | T@lk 00:29, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Hearing impairment is not a purely medical article. It addresses the causes, it addresses treatments and the problems with them, and I think it should include all non-medical coping strategies that deaf people employ in social interaction. At the moment there is a patchwork of articles that look at deafness from a number of perspectives. I'd rather collaborate with you on a good article that addresses all approaches harmoniously. I am fully aware that medicine does rarely cure hearing impairment. If you read the intro I wrote, you see what I mean.
Vint Cerf is invited to offer his opinion. This is a wiki. Have you asked him to contribute? As the co-inventor of TCP/IP, he must be interested in the wiki concept! JFW | T@lk 18:29, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
In spite of your insistence (speaking to Jdwolff) that you know what people are looking for when they enter deaf as a search keyword, I can not imagine that all people think only as you do. For example, someone following deaf from the eugenics article could very well be interested in the medical condition as you seem to think is the only possible outcome but they could also be looking for cultural information. There are other examples that I have not mentioned here but the point is that you have no way of knowing which way someone’s interests would make them lean. Therefore, both possibilities should be catered to. This is NOT a radical notion that when topics are very broad and therefore reasonable people might use the same word to look for more than one kind of information; a disambiguation page is in order. Qaz 03:31, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I think it's very logical and unsurprising to have a search for deaf return the deaf article, with a prominent note at the top of the article (as it used to have) linking to Deaf culture in case that's what was actually desired. I suggest this with the Principle of least astonishment in mind. -- Ds13 04:12, 2005 Feb 20 (UTC)
Deaf and hearing impairment are not synonymous though, and that is the problem. If you are looking for cultural information, to be taken to the medical/pathology model page is almost the exact opposite of what you are looking for. I have fixed some links in articles, for example, one talking about deaf dogs, to bypass the disambiguation page and go straight to the hearing impairment article because in that case you are right, it is the least astonishing. However, if someone types in deaf into the search box it should definitely take you to a disambiguation page because there are huge, and growing, populations that use the same word to mean and to search for something quite different from each other. This is a fact. As I said on the hearing impairment talk page, I read that in the US the number of college students taking sign language has already, or is about to surpass the number taking Spanish. In most, if not all, of those classes students are encouraged to seek out information on deaf people and deaf culture. We are talking about millions upon millions of people who want information about a culture that has a long and interesting history. They are looking for information about deaf people. They happen to use the keyword deaf. Why is that so hard to understand? Medicine is a science but so is sociology, both fields deserve equal treatment. Qaz 19:51, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I vote to leave this article as it is. There are clearly two different meanings of the same word, and therethore a disambugiation page is clearly needed. Also having a disambugiation page is clearly in the spirit of Wikipedia's 'Neutral Point of View' (NPOV) pilosophy. James Pole 03:42, 2005 Feb 21 (UTC)
Am I alone in thinking that before we leave this new disambig page in place, all the current links to 'deaf' throughout Wikipedia should be reviewed? There are 160 such references currently. Many of those are now inappropriately going to a disambig page. At the very least it's lazy and possibly confusing to send links from the Phil Collins, Congenital disorder, Boxer (dog), or Acute facial nerve paralysis articles (a few examples of many) to the disambig page when they should and could easily (with some work) be sent to the correct underlying page. This is both Wikipedia policy and just general decency. I suspect most can probably go to the hearing impairment (used to be deaf) article. Some might go to the Deaf culture page though. Some I'm not sure of. I'll help in this operation, but I'd like to point out that this could and should be done before just redirecting everything. Agreement? --Ds13 06:45, 2005 Feb 21 (UTC)
Despite vociferous complaints from Qaz, Pengo and Ray Foster, I will explain again what is wrong with the disambiguation.
The article hearing impairment is indended to cover the subject of deafness from the pathology to the social and cultural response. When I did a significant rewrite some weeks ago, I tried to cover as much as possible, to show that it is - indeed - a major article that will hopefully become a featured article one day.
To argue that deaf culture should be disambiguated right from the start is claiming undue importance for one of the many aspects of deafness. I will repeat the example I gave above: Pakistan is a "container article" that summarises everything about the country Pakistan. It links to more in-depth articles such as Politics of Pakistan. When I type "Pakistan", I do not want a disambig, but I want an overview. Similarly, someone who types "deaf" in the search box will find out there are many aspects to deafness, from microbiology and neuropathology to developmental psychology, psychoacoustics, sociology and cultural views. This is the prevalent style on Wikipedia.
The fact that some authors identify strongly with deaf culture is not an argument to give what I feel undue attention to this aspect. In fact, I compromised on disambiguating deaf culture right at the top of hearing impairment, but apparently this is not good enough.
I have already requested comments from the community. The response has been lukewarm. If you feel this is so important as to request mediation, I have no problem with that. I will, however, expect a serious answer to my points. I am not, as Qaz claims, "ignoring" social and cultural aspects. I am insisting that they are linked in context and not in a misguided disambiguation page. JFW | T@lk 01:07, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
In what sense is cultural deafness diametrically opposed to the medical model? It's about sound not getting to the brain, right?
I have no problems with an equal treatment on the same page, and I'd prefer if we went that way. But in what way does the cultural model disagree with basic facts of pathophysiology?
"Hearing impairment" is a euphemism for deafness; it also covers those who are partially hearing. If you find the title too POV, we can move the article to deafness. I don't mind.
Could you please outline in which ways the cultural deafness model opposes the medical model? Perhaps we're disagreeing simply because I've been confused by the terminology. And please stop reverting until we've settled this. I am listening to your arguments, but at the moment too many articles link to this page in the context of "medical" deafness (e.g. Phil Collins banging his drums to loudly). JFW | T@lk 04:03, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I would be glad to outline how the two views are often diametrically opposed but I would like to take some time to collect some thoughts on the matter. I do not want to carelessly summarize. One thing I can say for certain though is that your statement that hearing impaired is simply a euphemism for deaf clearly shows you have a very one-sided understanding of the issue. From the medical view it is a euphemism, a nicer way of expressing the idea but from the cultural perspective it is anything but. It would be as if we were in colonial America and I insisted that American culture was simply a consequence of English or European culture. It would be as if I demanded that the article for American redirect to "European impaired". That may be a simplistic way to express it but I wanted to attempt to give you some indication of why I and others have been so stubborn on this point. Any authority from Europe could claim (rightly I might add) that European culture came before American culture and the one is simply a consequence of the other, but I doubt that would make anyone in America all of a sudden relent and agree that we should be directed to a page called "European impaired" when we typed American in the search box. No American, or even just an already knowledgable person who was interested in the American people and their culture, would appreciate the affront before they were allowed to be presented with the information that there is a less Eurocentric perspective in existance which is increasingly common in fields like linguistics, sociology, education, and even in business and media.
Please notice, by the way, that if you type American in the search box you are taken to what amounts to a slightly expanded disambiguation page that makes early and detailed note of the controversy surrounding the label. This exactly parallels what should happen with the deaf article.
Now to return to the issue of the edit war we find ourselves in. As James Pole said earlier on this talk page, having the disambiguation page is more NPOV and so I feel that until the situation is resolved we should keep the disambiguation page. Until you can prove a case for a more POV situation, you should stop reverting it and asking me to just go along with your POV solution.
Because, from many of the links, we cannot with certainty predict which side of the issue someone would be inclined to explore first, they should rightly be provided with a choice (a disambiguation page). Qaz 05:52, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps the most important way the two views are incompatible is that the medical perspective often seems to view deaf people as just non-functioning ears. It is similar to the critique levied against the profession by older women who claim that the medical perspective treats menopausal women only as non-functioning ovaries. Many menopausal women, and many of the people who treat them (who are not medical doctors) instead say that they are going through a natural stage of life. Thus, many Deaf say they are a natural variety of humanity that simply uses a differnt mode (visual) of language. Neither the menapausal woman nor the deaf individuals are trying to deny the factual basis of their "impairment" but suggest that to see the situation only through the lens of lack or limitation is a simplification that leads to many critical thinking errors and does the people you are supposedly serving a disservice.
If you are interested, here is an external article about one issue that shows well how the two perspectives can lead people to be at odds. Qaz 22:51, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Menopause clearly is a natural stage of life, because all women who live long enough will go through menopause. Deafness only occurs if one fails to process sounds. It is blatantly obvious that it is a disability because it is the lack of an ability. Anyone (who is not blind) can learn sign language, only hearing people can hear. Ichelhof 19:10, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Once asked whether he would have his own hearing restored if he could, I. King Jordan, the first deaf president of Gallaudet University, told interviewers, “That’s almost like asking a black person if he would rather be white ... I don’t think of myself as missing something or as incomplete ... It’s a common fallacy if you don’t know deaf people or deaf issues. You think it’s a limitation.” I might add, by the way, that blind people can and indeed do learn sign language - see tactile signing. Perhaps you lack a few abilities yourself? ntennis 07:13, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I admit that I should have done more research into the blind signers; thank you for correcting me on this point. The rest of your response does not substantively address my post. I was concerned neither with how deaf people view their deafness, nor with whether it limits their ability to lead productive lives. Deaf people are simply unable to do something that everyone else can and does do, and this is the definition of a disability. It is irrelevant that the deaf see benefits in their disability. A man unable to walk but equipped with a (theoretical) scooter that moved him about faster than walking might well claim benefits in his own disability. My other point was that the beneficial trimmings of deafness (deaf culture) may largely be experienced by the hearing; they may learn sign language and be able to communicate through glass or over long distances, etc. Deaf people can never experience the benefits of hearing, so long as they remain deaf. Ichelhof 17:23, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I take issue with the examples I have been presented with. Being black is not similar to being unable to hear. Being black is an actual quality; deafness is the fundamental lack of something. Not being white means you are black, or some other color. One can not call this a disability without espousing preference for a certain color. Not being able to hear has no alternative option to interact with sound. It is simply the absence of that option. You might well see yourself as disabled if you could not life 500 pounds were you to encounter 500 pound weights that 95% of people could lift and did so on a continual basis. Just as a deaf person is clearly disabled when he can not perceive and interpret sounds. I agree that all things are subjective, but some are so far to one end of the spectrum that their inclusion in a category seems assured. If deafness is not a disability, if nothing can be called a disability, then disability is meaningless. And yet, the concept it expresses IS useful and meaningful, so I suggest that it be used, perhaps with a disclaimer. Ichelhof 00:42, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
I would agree with the phrasing "some view deafness as a disability while some do not." As a homosexual myself, I do see some differences which hurt its use as an analogy to deafness. Homosexuality is a preference, motivated psychochemically or not, for an action. It is difficult to frame it in terms of a disability in ANY but social terms. Deafness is not a preference, it is a state which describes a purely physical condition. Ichelhof 18:24, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
that medical deafness is definitively a disability. Ichelhof 20:33, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Models of Deafness deals with this diametric opposition in part, but not completely. First, let us understand the proper analogy for this issue. There is at least one other cultural group which was historically identified from a pathological view that no longer - at least in western society - is identified in that manner, but rather as a cultural group: homosexuals. We don't learn about gay and lesbian culture by searching for it under, for example, "mental illness". That is precisely what occurs with "deaf" when it is confined to the pathological view. It's like searching searching for Jew by going to Tay-Sachs disease or searching in mental illness for Gay Culture.
The principal opposition has to do with language, which is a marker of culture, not medical diagnosis. In January, National Public Radio (NPR) reported that American Sign Language had exceeded Spanish as the second-most taught language in colleges and universities in the United States. As college students are well-aware, a language cannot be taught indendent of culture and history, so that means that of the 1,000-plus institutitions of higher learning in the USA, deaf culture is the second-most studied culture in colleges. Additionally, American Sign Language is now the 4th most used language in the USA, behind English, Spanish and French. It is the most-used indiginous language in America although it is the newest of some 200 indigenous American languages. Even the USA most authoritative voice on the medical model of deafness, the National Institutes of Health - Institute on Deafness and Communicative Disorders acknowledges the important status of deaf culture and sign language. Deaf culture finds its center in language, not diagnosis. The medical model persistantly insists that deafness is *only* about illness. If you ask a doctor and a deaf person what the major problem is concerning deafness, the doctor will say it's the tragedy of not hearing, and the deaf person will say it's the tragedy of no communicating. There is no cure for deafness and the people we're talking about, mainly but not exclusively pre-lingually deafened people, can cite the historic failures of medical and educational efforts to make them into a broken sort of hearing person. I don't mean to be harsh but stating the facts in those terms. I'm citing verbatum what repels deaf people about medicine and draws them to a view that emphasizes their abilities. In the context of a sign-language based culture, disability evaporates. That signing environment has an enormous positive impact on a deaf person's mental health.
It just makes common sense that people who are weary of being defined as not quite human because of their difference would naturally gravitate to an environment where their difference is of no consequence or concern to anyone at all. To achieve that, a deaf person, by necessity, has to reject a diagnostic view of their state of being and hold fast to the language and values that make them feel good about themselves. It's impossible to be referred to as hearing-impaired, or for that matter, "anything"-impaired, and maintain a state of good mental health. That is what deaf people understand better than doctors do about deafness and it is why medical and cultural model are diametrically opposed. Language is the center of deaf people's lives, not medicine. Deaf people say "sign language" is our solution, not hearing aids and cochlears implants. Deaf people say they are a language minority, not a guinea pig for medical intervention. Ray Foster 23:56, Feb 24, 2005 (UTC)
This is in response to the revert by JFW who said on the edit description that the article should be a disambiguation and not a new article. The article on American, which is another term that is used very differently by people from differnt cultures, follows the same format as this article. The similarity is intentional because in both cases a simple list is not sufficient. JFW, you have your medical perspective at the very top of this article. When others asked that you include a link to the cultural view near the top it was something which you would only do after a protracted debate back when you had this page wrongly be a redirect to the hearing impairment article. I have been respectful to you at every turn and I will continue to be even though your last comment to me on this page contained a link to the article on profanity. If you wish to change something, please explain your reasoning here so that others may comment on it and so that you do not appear to now be on a personal vendetta against me for finally breaking your attempted ownership of the word deaf.Qaz 08:07, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
If you look at what I have said in the past, I have not claimed that "hearing impaired" is just a euphamism. I said something to the effect that the mainstream culture views it as a euphamism whereas the deaf culture views it as an insult. Earlier on this talk page, I did say it was used by the medical view to mean such and such and what I meant in that insteance was the mainstream culutre, not the medical culture so I regret that miswording. As far as the medical profession goes, especially after good points were made for why deaf should not be a redirect and you just kept repeating the same few claims (such as the medical condition predates the cultural affiliation), and also, because you were so dedicated to not giving an inch, I was inclined to think you were just another doctor that could only see deaf people as broken or disabled and had no understanding of an alternate perspective. This was reinforced by you asking things like, since when is deafness not a pathology, does that mean it is normal now? (or some question very similar to that)
The medical perspective and the cultural perspective are often at odds, this is not just my view it is an objective fact. I am not even saying which is right or wrong. I personally believe neither side is right all the time. Like many things, when you change your perspective, certain things become easier to see and other things fade into blind spots. It is analogous to having a scientific model. When you change the model, it illuminates or hides differnt aspects of reality. I am not saying medicine is wrong and deaf culture is right. I am not saying that deaf culture is wrong and medicine is right. All I am saying is that the two models see things differntly and both deserve attention. The fact that they are at often at odds though is simple fact. To report a controversy is not POV as long as it is really out there, and in this case it is. There would not be such an uproar over cochlear implants being used on children if there was no opposition in the two camps. I can understand your wish to have a comprehensive article. I have doubts as to whether that article could live at the "hearing impairment" article though unless it immediately addressed the real life controversy over that label and you apparently were very hostile to having cultural information appear anywhere except buried deep within the article. Actually, I take that back. You can and should have a comprehensive article at hearing impaired. That would in no way though lessen the need for deaf to lead to a page that gave reference to how the label is used by both deaf and by hearing people.
One thing you have not addressed on the talk page and I have brought it up a few times is the way differnt cultures use the term American. This exactly mirrors the problem with the word deaf. The reason the "American" article looks the way it does is because there are real differences in how the term is used by large groups of people. To outline this controversy is not failing to be neutral. Please respond to this line of reasoning. I would like to know your thoughts on it. Earlier you offered to move the page to "deafness" and off of "heaing impaired". I would consider that a big step away from the impass, however, that still leaves a big problem. It is the same problem when people from differnet cultures enter American into the search box and expect much differnt results and so therefore both groups must be catered to. There is a huge group that uses the word Deaf as the name for their culture, as the label for their people, as the word that sums up their identity. As such, does it make sense for deaf to be a redirect to anyting else even if that other uses is just as valid? The name of the culture is not "deafness" and it is not "hearing impairment". I do not see why you are so against having deaf lead to a page that honors how differnt groups use the term. I would not have imagined that having a fair representation of all sides of an issue would be such a contentious thing. Btw, I am aware that in the unemotional/technical vocabulary of medicine, heaing impairment is not meant to be an insult in any way. I agree that in medicine, it is a broader term than deaf. My point was never that you were wrong, it was just that you were not allowing any space for views other than the medical one. Qaz 11:55, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
P.S. This (below) is what I added to part of the political corretness article if this will help explain what I meant about deaf as a euphamism. Also, thank you for your return to comity.
Additionally, the PC movement sometimes has to confront the fact that some of the groups it aims to protect have a much different perspective than the mainstream culture from which political correctness sprang. For example, deaf culture has always considered the label deaf as an affirming statement of group membership and not insulting or disparaging in any way. The politically correct term now often substituted for the term deaf, hearing-imparied, while less offensive from the perspective of the mainstream culture, is considered highly derogatory by the deaf culture supposedly being saved from derision and discomfort.
That depends, do we agree that like American and Indian, deaf should not be a redirect and that whatever page deaf leads to should deliniate how the term is used differntly by differnt populations? I have thought about it for awhile and I think the reason I feel that the cultural view and the medical view is "diametrically opposed" (sorry it seems to bother you to put it that way) is that the medical view strives to fix what the cultural view does not feel is broken. Many or most culturally deaf people would not take some magic pill or avail themselves of some surgery to become hearing if given the chance. Many deaf people hope for deaf children. These attitudes are traditionally impossible to understand by many doctors and the medical establishment at large. It is the role of doctors to make everyone normal, it is the feeling of deaf pepople that they are normal. (Please be aware that I know full well the two uses of the term normal in that sentence are slightly different from one another. It is part of what drives the split that many of these words have meanings that do not coincide with one another inside and outside the medical establishment). In any event, can we agree that there is a split here in perspective? Qaz
I came here from the RfC page and would like to contribute. From what I understand from reading the Talk pages, the issue currently is what to do with the word "deaf", i.e. whether to have: 1) a "Deaf" disambiguation page; 2) a Deaf article that covers it all with links to particular sub-topics (e.g. lists of people who are deaf and/or hearing-impaired); or 3) neither of the above (i.e. separate pages with "deaf" redirecting to one page). Just from reading the Talk pages, it is clear that deaf aka hearing-impaired is a very different creature than deaf as in deaf culture. Consider three different types of searches of "deaf":
The first searcher is probably looking for the hearing impairment page. The second is probably looking for pages in the deaf culture vein. The third searcher may be looking for BOTH types of pages. And all may not know enough about the topics to type in "hearing-impairment", "deaf culture", or any other term apart from "deaf." I would argue this dispute should not be framed in terms of diametrically-opposed POV positions or "models", as the dispute is framed in the outside world. Rather, it should be viewed as for what information people will actually be looking. In my humble opinion, I think that all of them would benefit from a disambiguation page. Those that are looking for one type of information or the other, but not both, would not have to read through one rather long article. Those exploring could have easy links to both types of information. I hope that I have contributed with this. -- JimCollaborator 03:30, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC)
I'm placing this topic here as well as on Talk:List of deaf people since I think this is related to the disambiguation of "deaf" currently underway here. Since appear to be working under the assumption that "deaf" means different enough things to warrant a disambiguation page, should this list now be split into Famous people in Deaf culture and List of famous hearing impaired people? eg. I would suggest that folks like Beethoven, Ronald Reagan, and Steve Jobs would be on the latter list but not the former (since Deaf culture either didn't exist at their time or they were/are not members of the Deaf community). --Ds13 03:57, 2005 Mar 1 (UTC)
Did we end up with some kind of consensus here? JFW?
It seems to me a little awkward to have two 'zones' on wikipedia about deafness that aren't very well integrated - especially when the 'deafness' page redirects to 'hearing impairment' rather than this 'deaf' page (cf. deafblind redirect to deafblindness). Please bear with me as I have quite a few suggestions to (humbly) make! I firmly believe that we can accomodate all sides here.
I came to this page after viewing the hearing impairment page, and made some comments on the talk page there that regular contributors to this page may like to see.
My own take on the dispute is that JFW and Ds13 want to ensure that the 'deafness' page is not swamped with an undue focus on deaf culture, and should retain the wider community's sense of the word. Qaz/Pengo/Ray Foster's concern is that Deaf culture is invisiblised and the voice of the deaf community is drowned out by the medical profession.
While I strongly agree that there's a need to indicate the existence of a deaf community, sign language, etc, I can see JFW's point that the deaf community is inextricably linked to the physical condition of deafness. In my view, the Deaf community is a subset of the deaf population (if u can follow my logic). The two groups need to be clearly delineated, preferably in the first paragraph where a there would be a link to deaf culture and sign language, taking interested readers to those pages and leaving the rest of the 'hearing impairment' page to the medical persective. (As an encyclopedia, of course, the medical aspects of deafness are only part of the picture - it should include sociological information as well).
I believe that information from this current ('Deaf') page could be integrated into the first paragraph of the current 'Hearing impairment' page. The 'Hearing impairment' page should then be renamed as 'Deafness' - and the 'Deaf' page made to redirect there. Still with me? This seems to me to be a much more internally coherent organisation of this area of knowledge within Wikipedia. --ntennis 13:16, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Despite wading into a fiery dispute a little late I've made some significant changes to the Deaf page - I hope they aren't too controversial. If so, there's always reverts!
I tried to make the opening description general and useful to the average reader.
I tried to distill the extant information down to the significant parts in a logical order.
I put the deaf culture paragraph with the hearing impairment para as I feel they are much more linked conceptually than the colloquial use of the word, which i moved to it's own section as 'other meanings of deaf'. There may be a wikipedia convention that I'm missing here?
I also re-worded the deaf culture paragraph with a view to it's eventual integration in a general page about 'deafness'
I look forward to getting feedback on any of this and sorry if I stepped on any toes. --ntennis 13:16, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
DEAFNESS - While deafness is a hearing impairment, someone who is deaf is not usually described as having a hearing impairment. A person who has a total hearing loss is described as being deaf. The key difference in the common use of the terminology is that someone who has a hearing impairment, has a mild or moderate hearing loss, and a person who is deaf has either no hearing or has a severe hearing loss.
Putting the deaf vs. Deaf vs. hearing impaired argument aside for a moment, I'd like to point out the use of the term wider community in this article. Is this really the best word for "people who are not deaf?" As a professional within the field of deafness, I would be more inclined to use a term like hearing community or even hearing world, which is a common enough phrase in the Deaf community. (Incidentally, the ASL phrase is signed as DEAF-WORLD or HEARING-WORLD while English speakers are more likely to say deaf community or hearing community. To me, wider community sounds a bit too vague. Thoughts? -Etoile 16:16, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It has been a pleasure to consume the passion expressed so far on this page. I was surprised that no one (unless I overlooked it) used the term "CONTINUUM" as a tool to organize the wealth of information that you all hold collectively. As I spent so much time reading and processing what was being expressed, I do not have time to look at the guidelines for article format and content, but, I do have a few general suggestions to throw out to the crowd:
Why not consider organizing EVERYTHING HAVING TO DO WITH the medical and cultural aspects of hearing impairment and deafness along linked continuums?
for example: CONTINUUM 1 - anatomy of hearing impairment which would address the known functions of aural structures, and how the impairment of various structures can lead to the inability to hear from slight to complete. CONTINUUM 2 - perspective and interpretation of hearing impairment and deafness at one end would be the purely medical point of view in which the normal and desired state is to be able to hear un-impaired, and the focus would be to restore hearing AND the individual's place within the hearing community. At the other end would be those who belong to the deaf community (which distinguishes itself from the hearing impaired community) and have no desire to discredit the value of their cultural variation by labeling and treating the inability to hear as an "impairmant." (It would be interesting to see this continuum written twice - once by a member of the medical community and once by a member of the deaf community. I say this because I have gained a great deal of understanding and insight reading the different perspectives expressed in the previous discussion. It allows for more accurate interpretation of messages being expressed in future struggles.)
I think that it is within this continuum that the definition and explaination of deaf culture would exist, however, deaf culture could be a continuum of its own if one were to examine the magnitude of adaptation in attempt to co-exist with the hearing community and the resulting cultural variation within the deaf community.
I am so tired that my brain has just about stopped functioning. My last word is this: I am not a member of the medical or the deaf community and I hope that I have not ignorantly written something offensive or insulting. I appreciate the privilege of viewing everyone's posts which are obviously generous in intelligence and emotion.
"Worldwide, at least 5% of the population (1 in 20) is estimated to have less than average hearing." This doesn't make much sense to me. My guess would be that somewhere closer to 50% of people would have less than average hearing, although I suppose this depends on your definition of average and your measure of hearing. Another term besides "less than average hearing" probably ought to be used, but I'm not sure which term is most accurate. I also don't have the source that the original contributor used (it would be nice if it were cited), so I can't be sure that the term I use would match correctly with the source. NoIdeaNick 15:29, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
This just leapt out at me. Why is it included? Does the writer believe that there is a general perception amongst "hearies" that "Deafies" hate them? Some elaboration needed.
I don't think deaf should redirect to deafness. Only "deaf" is related to deafness. "Deaf" is an entirely different concept which is already being developed in this page. What do you think? Rodrigo Novaes 14:09, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Due to my screwup, anyone who type "deaf" in search term is currently redirected to article about "hearing". Sorry about that. Appreciate if anyone can fix it. As for my two yen, I would find it helpful if article about deafness explained biological aspect as well as cultural one. Vapour
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |