delete

I have withdrawn a clause after persistent subversion. It ran: 'after advocating certain aspects of Turkish foreign policy'----Clive Sweeting

Disputed

I do not think that the titles of the Patriarch are correct in the Greek language. Perhaps someone who speaks Greek fluently could check it. The titles in English are correct. I checked them with the first line of: http://www.ec-patr.org/athp/index.php?lang=en --Msl5046 16:39, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The title of the patriarch is correct in the Greek language. http://www.ec-patr.org/athp/index.php?lang=gr --Jstamos 01:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Other

this page contains no actual information...

Well, it's a year later, but now it does contain some info. --Delirium 01:21 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Pontian Greek community that was largely killed or expelled by the Turks in the early 20th century. Nothing but point of view and propaganda. Zfr 22:23, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The replacement nonsense legitimizing murder as "as a result of agreements" is nothing but point of view and propaganda. --Delirium 09:46, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)

Hahaha! <== This is a POV!

I think its time for an update of this page, and also a new photo. Patriarch Bartholomew is the second most important person in Christianity

No, he's far more important than the pope, Dr. Dobson or anyone else you can come up with. Proeliator Sancti 15:19, 5 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Febuary 29 in which calendar? Jackiespeel 18:11, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In the Gregorian.--Hectorian 00:54, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I heard he was Ex-KGB, is there any truth to this? Proeliator Sancti 15:19, 5 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think u are confusing him with Patriarch Alexius II of Moscow. Hectorian 17:06, 5 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This entire article seems to be completely opinion based, especially with regards to the language and scarce usage of quotation marks in the "Green Patriarch" section.--Aidenn (talk) 19:12, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The slash

I put the slash back in because he was not born Demetrios Archontonis Δημήτριος Αρχοντώνης, but rather Δημήτριος Αρχοντώνης; the slash makes clear that the same name is being presented in two alphabets. Biruitorul 08:50, 18 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

When will something of importance apper on this page....jstamosSep 23 2006 

The article being discussed here is a nominee for the WikiProject:Eastern Orthodoxy collaboration of the month. If you wish to add your vote on it, please go to WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy/COTM.

Some remarks

If Pope Benedict visits Istanbul this November, this will be the 3rd papal visit to the Patriarchate since the Schism, not the 1st, as is written in the article. Pope Paul VI was the first who visited Constantinople (he met Patriarch Athenagoras) and then Pope John Paul II came again visiting Patriarch Demetrius. Furthermore, Patriarch Bartholomew is a honorary doctor, not professor, of the universities listed here, and he has never been a Professor of the Gregorian Pontifical University. As far as I know, he has taken his doctorate there. (Obviously the writer has confused the titles doctor, meaning the holder of a doctoral degree, and professor, meaning an active university tutor) Besides there is virtually no information about his studies in the text...

It was me who added the info about the universities where he is a honorary tutor... I, cause of my backgroung, may confuse the titles of "tutor" and "doctor" (in Greek, doctor=γιατρός, meaning doctor, in the medical sense, and "doctora" in Greek, means a form of post-graduate degree...). Feel free to make changes needed. i also do not know where Bartholomew got his doctora from-if u are sure, add it, with a source pls... As for the Papal visits, this is the first time that a Pope will officially visit an Ecumenical Patriarch. this is what is exceptional with this. Papal-Ecumenical Patriarcal meetings have occured 4 times so far, i think: 1st in Jerusalem, then Athenagoras visited John Paul I in the Vatican, then John Paul II went to Constantinople, then Bartholomew visited John Paul II (the later had sceduled a visit, but he did not make it, cause of his illness and then death...). I can't remember of a John Paul visit to Demetrius... But, in any case, this is the first official visit in 1 thousand years... Hectorian 02:28, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your answer. John Paul II's visit was to Demetrius (I think it was in the early '80s). What I fail to understand is in what sense the forthcoming papal visit is official compared to the previous ones. As far as I know even during the Middle Ages very few popes visited Constantinople and these were not actually 'official' or brotherly visits, but after the invitation of the emperors, in order to settle questions of doctrine and ecclesiastical discipline. So if there is something special about this papal visit, it will probably the first of this kind in history. In any case this will certainly be of particular interest given the opinions expressed by the Turks for this pope and vice-versa. If the whole thing does take place at all.

I don't believe any medieval pope visited Constantinople, and they certainly didn't after 1453. 99.231.111.157 (talk) 07:53, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Restructure

Just added a infobox and restructured the article. Didn't make any changes to the actual text, though. OrthodoxGuy 01:57, 18 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"The Patriarch is a Turkish citizen with Greek ethnicity (See Istanbul Pogrom)"

Delirium, the wrong thing is not with the paranthesis, or the "see ..." format. The problem is that the link to Istanbul Pogrom article really doesn't belong to that paragraph, and is an instance of "see also" push people do when they feel angry about something in the past and they want to make it known by linking the article from every place possible. Adding a "see Istanbul Pogrom" to the Patriarch's biography just because he is of Greek origin is clearly an instance of this. It is also why the link stays in parantheses unlike the rest of the links in the paragraph, because there really isn't a clear mention of how this event relates to the Patriarch's biography. Atilim Gunes Baydin 15:06, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just some incidental protocol corrections: Re: His All Holiness BARTHOLOMEW I: His DENOMINATION is more correctly GREEK ORTHODOX not 'Eastern Orthodox Christian'; one would not write Western Catholic Christian when referring to ROMAN CATHOLICS. The 'Christian Church' is Greek (Hellenic) not by nationality/ethnicity, but by its PATRISTICS (the wisdoms of its writings identified): THE NEW TESTAMENT was originally written in Greek, and came from the Apostles out of Israel not Greece, our first OLD TESTAMENT translation came out of Egypt not Greece. So, when referencing The Church in Serbia, it is formally THE GREEK ORTHODOX CHURCH OF SERBIA, or THE GREEK ORTHODOX CHURCH OF UKRAINE, or THE GREEK ORTHODOX CHURCH OF RUSSIA, or THE GREEK ORTHODOX CHURCH OF HELLAS, and other NATIONAL CHURCHES.

Additionally: His RESIDENCE: Since you are writing in ENGLISH, the residence district of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in Istanbul (Constantinople) is spelled PHANAR: Your wording, 'FENER' would be correct in a Turkish language article.

Chicago 1/27/12 19 chicagodelicious 39 (talk) 18:13, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

WP:GRAPEVINE

Please read the guidelines, contentius info must be removed about living persons. --Ceco31 (talk) 10:54, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I assume you are referring to "first among equals" as the contentious phrase in question here, per the edit by Laurel Lodged (talk · contribs). I would like to point out that the policy only refers to unsourced or poorly-sourced contentious assertions. This phrase is neither. You have provided no evidence that it is contentious, and it is sourced at the Christian Post article, reference number 4. So no, you do not have license to violate WP:3RR, and you will be reported for edit-warring if you continue on this tear. Elizium23 (talk) 20:13, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I will also point out that Laurel has incorrectly applied WP:PEACOCK. This guideline only applies to unattributed assertions which do not impart verifiable information, which is plainly not the case here. Elizium23 (talk) 22:03, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Leader of worlds all 300 million Orthodox is a Peacock unofficial definition, for a living person contenitious material must be deleted whether it is positive or negative without discussion in accordance to WP:GRAPEVINE. Please read it it is clear, there must be no jokes with living persons.--Ceco31 (talk) 22:38, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, you have presented no evidence for your case, and the evidence against you is already in the article. These are well-sourced statements and therefore they do not fall under WP:GRAPEVINE or WP:PEACOCK. Elizium23 (talk) 00:08, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Ceco31:, you apparently are unaware that "first among equals" refers to honorary position only, not to any authority within the church administration. It is the English translation of the phrase that has always been used to describe relative position among the highest Orthodox authorities in the church, resting upon the see of the highest precedence. Before the East-West Schism, the eastern Christians that eventually came to comprise the Orthodox churches conferred this honor upon the Pope of Rome, since Rome was the seat of the see of highest honor. After the schism, the honor devolved to the Patriarchate of Constantinople as the see of next highest position. If the Orthodox and Catholic churches ever reconciled, the honor would presumably rest once again with Rome. But the phrase itself is now used also to differentiate the Orthodox and Catholic views of the role that the holder of the "highest" see takes in the church. Unlike Orthodoxy, Catholics regard "first" as a description of authority as well as honor. The "ecumenical" patriarch of Orthodoxy then, is a spiritual leader recognized and honored by all the Orthodox Church, but is not responsible for administration of more than the one patriarchate. "First among equals" is definitely not a "peacock" term, having been in recognized use for centuries. Evensteven (talk) 23:21, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I am fine with the "first among equals". I am not saying this is peacock and contentious. What is contentious about a living person is "leader of worlds 300 million Orthodox Christians", isnt it? What would you say about that? A claim that is ABSOLUTELY unofficial AND PERSONALLY INTERPRETED and including 5% of the worlds population isnt contentious and peacock? I think its clear and I wonder why such a large talk grew from this.--Ceco31 (talk) 18:18, 31 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
He is a Patriarch, by definition a "leader". He is the first among his equals, the other Patriarchs who are also leaders. It may be honorary in the sense that he does not carry the burden of authority over the entire Orthodox Church. Nevertheless, all those leaders are more than just administrators. They are also the living spiritual leaders of the autonomous churches, taking the leading role in services wherever they go. Except that this Patriarch would be given that leading honor there as well. It is how it has always been done in Orthodoxy, and every Orthodox person is aware of it. Moreover, the respect given to clerical offices, according to their rank, is understood universally; it is not given for the sake of the person (although that may additionally be given), but for the office and role first of all. Leadership is leadership, good or poor, but the leadership roles of the Orthodox are clear and hierarchical, and number one resides here. The numbers of Orthodox in the world are virtually uncountable with any great exactitude (mostly because of secular politics), but they are much greater than some in the west realize. The numbers are what they are, facts are facts, and the best estimates we have found give a count. Find a better estimate if you can, but be sure to avoid the biased estimates (they do exist). There's nothing contentious or peacock about stating what the sources say. Evensteven (talk) 07:52, 1 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Layman opinion polls

I have opened a similar section at the Patriarch's article. Please reply there. Dr. K. 20:14, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Why are you using the formal style of address in the infobox?

Wikipedia is a secular, religious neutral encyclopedia. Accepting or using the formal style of address violates the NPOV principle. I 'd suggest we follow the example of other prominent clerics, ie pope Francis. Τζερόνυμο (talk) 20:25, 8 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This has nothing to do with NPOV. It is just a standard field of the Template:Infobox Patriarch. As far as the pope, they use a different infobox type. Dr. K. 23:42, 8 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think that we should apply the pope's infobox here. Wikipedia just mention the style of address of each priest, not use them. Using them implies accepting that they are really great and Holy, and that God exist -which is not verifiable. Τζερόνυμο (talk) 06:43, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That's your opinion, but you cannot impose it until someone agrees with you. Meanwhile, cease edit-warring and the infobox-patriarch stays until there is consensus to remove it. Dr. K. 06:45, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Of Course is my opinion, it is legitimate to talk our opinion in a Talk Page. I wonder what the counter argument is.Τζερόνυμο (talk) 07:17, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It definitely is ok to give your opinion. Edit-warring is not, however, an acceptable practice. The argument here is that the infobox-patriarch has been designed with a field for the honorific-prefix. The infobox is designed by Wikipedians and its use is widely accepted and has WP:CONSENSUS. The field for the honorific-prefix is also widely accepted and it also has consensus. If you have any ideas that they should be changed, you have to wait until more editors agree with your reasoning. Trying to unilaterally impose your preference by edit-warring, is, obviously, not recommended. Dr. K. 07:38, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I am definitely willing to play by the rules. Can you please inform me where the current consensus for the honorific prefix was shaped? (just a link, if available) Τζερόνυμο (talk) 07:58, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
As I mentioned before, "The infobox is designed by Wikipedians and its use is widely accepted and has WP:CONSENSUS. The field for the honorific-prefix is also widely accepted and it also has consensus." If they did not have consensus, they would not have been designed to be used. If you want to make them disappear, you have to gain consensus. I hope this helps. Dr. K. 08:12, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Τζερόνυμο, I am sorry but this is not how Wikipedia works. Infoboxes were the result of cooperation among Wikipedians, not something that certain editors may add or remove at will. Infoboxes are here to stay, like it or not. Each infobox is designed around the needs of the person, whom the information displays. As you may have noticed, the Patriarch certainly is not Pope, and for that reason, different information is displayed about Patriarch than about Pope, reflecting each religion's differences. To come here and blatantly demanding that the Patriarch has his infobox replaced, is bound to cause only problems, not solve them and can be considered a form of disruption. I do not know when the infobox was created and by whom, but this talk page is about the Patriarch himself, not the appropriate page for discussing about infobox's creation, coding, technical aspects, and functions. --❤ SILENTRESIDENT ❤ 08:32, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
SilentUser, Wikipedia changes, and that is the only way to improve. Infoboxes can change as well. This is how Wikipedia works. Coming here and blatanly demand everything stays as it suits your POV, is bound to cause only problems, not solve them and can be considered a form of disruption. I am very willing to argue why it should change and this is the only way forward. That is the discussion and you can not forbid this. Τζερόνυμο (talk) 09:23, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If you want to change infoboxes, this is the wrong venue. You should make a proposal at WP:VP. Meanwhile, you should follow WP:CIVIL and not accuse people of being disruptive. In addition, the editor's name is not Silentuser, it is SilentResident. Dr. K. 09:45, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Τζερόνυμο, the fact that you are demanding a change of the Patriarch's infobox type even though the current infobox type is specifically made for that Patriarch and serves the article's needs better than Pope's infobox could ever do, and accusing the other editors of POV instead of trying to discuss with them the reasons for why such a change is a necessity, (sorry but a mere title isn't a valid reason for changing the entire infobox), is very disruptive and I highly recommend you leave this article alone, unless you are here to contribute positively and are interested in fixing a broken thing or two instead of edit warring with other editors like you have done with Dr.K.. --❤ SILENTRESIDENT ❤ 09:56, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Dr.K. and SilentResident: for your information, this request is definitely a spillover from the ideological shitstorm that is raging in the Greek WP. Given the frequency in which practices in the English WP are cited as models in other WPs, I suspect this has come up there, and Τζερόνυμο is now trying to alter it to support his/her preferred view. Whatever merits this suggestion might have otherwise, the motives behind bringing it up at this juncture are not kosher. Constantine ✍ 18:27, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Cplakidas: I didn't knew that. Thanks for letting me know. --❤ SILENTRESIDENT ❤ 18:45, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Kostas or letting us know. This account is edit-warring on the Greek wikipedia on exactly the same article, but got also reverted. He is currently blocked on el.wiki. Meanwhile, a Greek editor has already noticed this account's edit-warring here. What a party. Dr. K. 18:57, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It's quite depressing, really. I only got aware of it (and involved in the fringes) recently, but ultra-nationalists and ultra-leftists battle it out like there is no tomorrow, with name-calling and WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS mentality in buckets. Constantine ✍ 19:31, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I can see how a situation like this can arise. It seems that some people cannot learn from history. Dr. K. 20:19, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Say that again Dr. Neville Chamberlain. Τζερόνυμο (talk) 12:34, 11 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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