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Should it be considered a myth?[edit]

I could easily say many things that could be a reason why it isn't a myth. Evolution allows for things to take thousands or years, but if humans evolved from monkeys, why do we still have monkeys? after 5000 years or so of known history, humans haven't changed. If you look at the wonder and design of nature and space, it is sort of mind blowing that there couldn't be a God of some sort. Do you think evolution could get the several trillion DNA put together perfectly by chance? There had to be an artist or a Creator. A watch can't just put itself together after millions of years can it? I bet the parts would have rusted away and dissolved by that time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Capitalist forever (talk • contribs) 18:54, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's elementary dear Watson: the theory of evolution never denied there is a God. It simply does not operate with the concept "God". tgeorgescu (talk) 19:00, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@The Capitalist forever No monkeys involved, you’ve been lied to about that. I am pretty sure you’ve never read anything scientific about evolution yet you think you know the science. Doug Weller talk 19:09, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"but if humans evolved from monkeys, why do we still have monkeys?" Please, do not edit pages while drunk. The argument is incoherent. Dimadick (talk) 20:08, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not drunk, Dimadick. I would never consume alcohol. The Capitalist forever (talk) 20:25, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Dimadick and others, please be nice. This is a child. Bishonen | tålk 20:49, 24 April 2023 (UTC).[reply]
Does not sound like a child, rather someone in his late teens. tgeorgescu (talk) 23:02, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your work you put into typing your answer Aoidh. I get what you are saying. It's just alittle off that it says myth instead of just narrative. It throws so many people off. I purely believe every word of the Bible. Oh and to tgeorgescu, yes I am in my teens (14) The Capitalist forever (talk) 02:27, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@The Capitalist forever: Sorry to spoil your fun, but Wikipedia has a lot of stuff which throws children off (and believers in biblical literalism). We deal in stuff that you can't hear in Sunday school, but your pastor probably learned it in the divinity school. Also, I had little against Trump till he tried to overturn the elections. Also, there's a possibility that you have unbelieving parents, but they're hiding it from you so you don't get bullied at school. tgeorgescu (talk) 03:06, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
My parents are strong believers actually and I am homeschooled through a Christian School in Illinois. I am a supporter of Trump, and honestly, I think Biden can't even run a country. I was raised by my mother as a Christian. I definitely agree that wikipedia doesn't go very far into the legitamacy of ancient beginnings. They are very reluctant to say anything because they don't want to contradict others. Anyway, I just started an account yesterday, so I am learning all the basics still. The Capitalist forever (talk) 04:35, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is about information from WP:BESTSOURCES. My own interpretation is that BESTSOURCES means WP:CHOPSY, though some editors disagree. tgeorgescu (talk) 04:55, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yah BESTSOURCES is that for sure. The Capitalist forever (talk) 05:01, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think that evolution takes as much faith to believe as creationism. You are either placing your faith in the Bible and God, or Science and Man. Atheists still believe in something even if they don't acknowledge there is a God. Evolutionary scientists believe everything is just matter in motion, but don't you think is something different between man and animals,something that sets us higher than them? I believe we are created in God's image.
@tgeorgescul, On your personal article, it says you love to cream Christian fundamentalists, I will tell you, I am one of them. Biblical inerrancy is my key belief. Also I have read the entire Bible many times so ask me anything you want. The Capitalist forever (talk) 06:22, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@The Capitalist forever: I'm telling you the easy way: this is not a WP:FORUM for your rants. tgeorgescu (talk) 06:42, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry. I keep forgetting about that. I don't think much more can be edited on the Creation Narrative because if you are supposed to be neutral, how can you really add/edit without controversy?
The Capitalist forever (talk) 07:01, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We follow the WP:SOURCES. That is, the mainstream academic WP:SOURCES, not written by Bible thumpers. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:03, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand how an event in the Bible should be interpreted and limited by secular scholars instead of people who actually think the Bible is true.The myth part of this article should be changed to limit arguments in the talk section. Everyone knows that a myth is a false fairy tale. The Capitalist forever (talk) 07:21, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As in that often quoted speech: "Life is unfair, get used to it." tgeorgescu (talk) 07:26, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"I am a supporter of Trump, and honestly, I think Biden can't even run a country." You will probably get a chance to vote in a few years. But I do not see what political orientation has to do with this article. Dimadick (talk) 09:04, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@The Capitalist forever: And to stop beating around the bush: the title of this article and every word of the WP:LEDE are the results of long and protracted wiki-feuds. So, it would be unwise to change those, even if you have sources. tgeorgescu (talk) 09:18, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a question of "should it be considered" a myth. The proper question is "is it a myth?" The answer is "Yes", according to:

Unless you are presenting evidence that the Genesis narrative is not:

A. A traditional, legendary, or old story.

B. Historical or explaining early history.

C. Part of a worldview.

D. About natural phenomenon.

... the question of it being a myth does not apply. Padillah (talk) 12:53, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Padillah, I think of creation as something that actually happened. Not an ancient story, I think it is historical. It is everything on your ABCD list but A.It is historically acurate and I am a fundamentalist. It's quite obvious wikipedia doesn't believe in the Biblical creation, otherwise they would have used 'account' or 'narrative'. When Charles Darwin formulated his idea of evolution, the fossil record was not explored well, and he had to place assumptions and faith into his belief that "missing links" would be found. Today the fossil record has been explored: "The evidence indicates that all fossils are either varieties of organisms alive in the present or unique types of organisms that are now extinct." [Science:Order and Design| copyright - Pensacola Christian College] The Capitalist forever (talk) 17:53, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@The Capitalist forever which of course is wrong and misrepresents the science. But then the college has to do that, it’s a Young Earth Creationist and for them belief beats science and makes it impossible for them to tell the truth about the scientific viewpoint. But please drop this, we are a mainstream encyclopaedia and you can’t change that. Doug Weller talk 18:13, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The internet is vast, perhaps you'll like Biblical creation account better. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:22, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Actually that was only a small part of the book. I am serious when I say in that textbook, they give alot of scientific evidence, go buy the book yourself if you want. I'm not trying to change the encyclopaedia, don't worry. The Capitalist forever (talk) 18:24, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, @johnbod, I saw that, but what do you mean by allowing alot of wiggle-room? The Capitalist forever (talk) 18:27, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is simply put an improper venue to argue that the theory of evolution is false. The proper venues for doing that are PNAS and Nature (journal). tgeorgescu (talk) 21:42, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
None of those venues have had a talk in 2-4 years.The Capitalist forever (talk) 22:58, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Do you recognize the Pope's encyclicals as binding for your faith? No. Similarly, we don't recognize that your schoolbook is expressing science. tgeorgescu (talk) 23:11, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously nothing will change our viewpoints. I recognize that my book is expressing science.The Capitalist forever (talk) 00:36, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This book? I believe it "is expressing science" from a creationist point of view. Just plain Bill (talk) 01:33, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, the question has already been litigated as Association of Christian Schools International v. Stearns. tgeorgescu (talk) 01:36, 26 April 2023
Yes @justplainBill, that is the book. If you don't think the Bible is scientifically accurate, visit this:
[1]
For example: George Washington might have lived longer if his physicians had read the Bible instead of bleeding him to death because in Leviticus 17:11 it says that "For the life of the flesh is in the blood." (date circa 1400 B.C.). Bloodletting was discarded around the late 1800's and blood transfusions became vital. The Capitalist forever (talk) 06:17, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is not the proper venue for re-litigating mainstream scientific consensus. tgeorgescu (talk) 06:22, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@The Capitalist forever that verse doesn't say don't do bloodletting. I think that's just a Creationist interpretation to suggest the Bible is scientifically accurate. Jews did bloodletting.[4]. Doug Weller talk 07:48, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@DougWeller, if you went and read the other 9 verses about science and the bible coexisting, I don't think you could dispute some of them. Read the link if you want. In the book of Job it says the earth is a sphere. This was long before Christopher Columbus because God knows everything.The Capitalist forever (talk) 07:58, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@The Capitalist forever replying on your talk page, this doesn't belong here really. Doug Weller talk 08:02, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So where are the acceptable venues? not the ones that haven't talked in 4 years.* — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Capitalist forever (talk • contribs) 06:51, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Editors' talk pages. Doug Weller talk 08:03, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This page has been moved or suggested to move 14 times in the past 13 years and that includes two year-long moratoriums on move requests... I think the question has been asked and answered. The "feeling you get" (about WP's attitude towards the subject) is not notable in this environment. If you wish, there are several places that are much more productive to have a discussion on the falsifiability of this subject and it's implications, but this talk page is not one of them.
We have provided answers for the use of the term. We cannot change the content to represent a stronger case (or, indeed any case at all) based on your desire to get the word out. Wikipedia is not a pulpit, we cannot allow it to be used to preach or promote a worldview. How would you feel if we allowed users to remove the word "theory" from the Evolution page? It is simply improper for us to change the description away from the dictionary supported one.
Padillah (talk) 11:56, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is our task to report mainstream science for what it is and mainstream scholarship for what it is. It is not our task to change these. tgeorgescu (talk) 12:30, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
To me this discussion feels kinda counterintuitive, like this is not a discussion forum but a page to suggest improvements to the article but we're just wasting time trying to prove our points. I support closing this discussion. Vamsi20 (ask me questions) (see what I've edited) 15:35, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion was finished with the statement I'm not trying to change the encyclopaedia. This page is only for discussing changes to the encyclopaedia, especially the page Genesis creation narrative. If you want to do something else, go somewhere else. End of discussion. --Hob Gadling (talk) 15:54, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ godtv.com/top-10-scientific-facts-in-the-bible-that-prove-faith-and-science-coexist/

First sentence and what this article subject is[edit]

The editor in me wants to unrevert this revert, but the Wikipedian in me says that I need to pay attention the WP:BRD essay about the Wikipedia:Consensus and Wikipedia:Be bold pages and discuss it here first.

The initial sentence article, with my edit reverted and superscripted links removed, currently reads: "The Genesis creation narrative is the creation myth of both Judaism and Christianity. The bolded phrase , the term Genesis creation narrative there, according to MOS:FIRST, should tell the nonspecialist reader what or who the subject is. The article then goes on to describe in some detail two stories, roughly equivalent to the first two chapters of the Book of Genesis.

This article is not the Genesis creation myth.

This article can reasonably be said to be a description of the Genesis creation myth.

Unless there is objection, I intend to unrevert the revert tomorrow. If there is objection, please discuss that here.

Also, please see the related ongoing discussion at Talk:Creation myth#Requested move 4 June 2023, which I mentioned in the edit summary of my reverted edit. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 14:29, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. The scope of the article and the lead sentence have been discussed many times before. Considering that the article has been defined as such for years and due to its controversial nature, this definitely needs to be discussed. You'll need to elaborate why you think this article isn't in fact the Genesis creation myth. StephenMacky1 (talk) 20:48, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think that the Genesis creation myth is a myth (the term myth there intended in its current common usage as described in the Myth article), and the Genesis creation narrative is a narrative about the myth. A narrative, according to that wikilinked article,is "any account of a series of related events or experiences,[cites] whether nonfictional (memoir, biography, news report, documentary, travelogue, etc.) or fictional (fairy tale, fable, legend, thriller, novel, etc.)". If you don't like the term narrative there, please suggest a more fitting term. However, this article is not the creation myth itself. It is an account of a series of related events that, in the aggregate, make up what might be called the Genesis creation myth. Some believe those events to be fictional, some believe them to be fact, some believe the account to be allegorical, some believe it to be a literal description of past events. Regardless of whether or not one or more of those differing beliefs is correct, this article is a an account of that series of related events. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 21:47, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We add extra words to make believers happy....but it does not change the meaning....just gives more room for interpretation they need. Moxy- 01:49, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Simple answer: see Ngrams; long answer: scholars naturally err on the side of caution when it comes to respecting religions in their academic analyses, and here the balance of sources firmly favours 'narrative', so that's NPOV. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:26, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And more ngrams, but "The Genesis creation narrative [or story, or account] is the creation myth" is still not at all true. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 08:41, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 7 June 2023[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved per WP:SNOW. There is no advantage to be gained in keeping this discussion open any longer. (non-admin closure) StAnselm (talk) 16:07, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Genesis creation narrative → Genesis creation story – The current title is avoiding WP:COMMONNAME for no apparent reason. It should move to the common name, per Ngrams, and the weighing of scholarly literature, i.e. 2,040 hits for "story", 900 hits for "narrative", and 312 hits for "myth". Aside from being WP:COMMONNAME, "Genesis creation story" is also more WP:CONCISE. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:44, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I don't trust Google scholar. In this case it includes unpublished works a 34 page paper for a seminar at a Creationist Seminary[5], etc. And that's just the first page. I expect a lot of the Google scholar hits will be Creationist - GS has a lot of fringe material of various kinds. And a search for "Genesis myth" gives 2530 hits[6], more than any of your searches. Doug Weller talk 11:45, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And "Genesis story" gives 14,000 hits by the same boiled-down methodology, see here. As long as the searches are performed in a like-for-like manner, the pattern appears to be highly consistent. In any case, narrative and story are broadly synonymous, so the change is fairly circumstantial, but it is for sure shorter and better aligned with WP:COMMONNAME. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:51, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As examples of academic works with the proposed terminology not just in the text, but in the title, see: Noah's Flood: The Genesis Story in Western Thought, Regenesis: Lawrence and a Re-Evaluation of the Genesis Story, The Literary Structur of the Genesis Creation Story, etc. The cause to prefer 'narrative' remains unclear to me. I don't see the impetus. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:10, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Plain Google is similar: 180,000 hits for story, 60,000 for narrative, 18,000 for myth. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:56, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Iskandar323Interesting but I'm still not happy with searching, eg The Oxford Handbook of Biblical Narrative. came up and it's pretty clearly picking up hits on "story" "story of Genesis" (which of course is similar to but not identical to Genesis story and a bit ambiguous. Doug Weller talk
More worrying the first book come up twice on the first page and about 5480 times in all.[7] Doug Weller talk 14:19, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've taken the issue of a book showing up so many times to RSN. Doug Weller talk 14:31, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's surely just because it's hosted at multiple scholarly publisher sites, with several reviews, which surely is actually reassuring that it is a high-quality reference source, reviewed and cited many times? Iskandar323 (talk) 16:51, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Iskandar323 That’s speculation. Doug Weller talk 19:18, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps, but so is search result skepticism. There is ostensibly evidence of a clear WP:COMMONNAME, only countered by the notion it might be misrepresentative. Unless someone analyses all of the thousands of results, the facts at face value are still better than the absence of anything empirical at all. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:27, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Doug Weller: So the Creationist Seminary prefers 'narrative', which is what the proposal aims to dispense with, so that's supportive right? If 'narrative' is less scholarly, and 'story' is more scholarly - that's surely a plus for the latter. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:13, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Try reading the article. Also, you don't need to reply to every reply. Walrasiad (talk) 20:27, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Iskandar323:, talking strictly policy based, I would still say leave narrative. This subject has been brought up so many times and with everyone opposing this, it's not going to change for some time. That's reality. Let me say again:"It should be kept as narrative because that's what this article really is, a description or narrative of the events in the beginning of Genesis." The Capitalist forever (talk) 20:28, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"events in the beginning of Genesis" seems confusing or circular to me, —PaleoNeonate – 14:58, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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