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I made some (imho very) minor changes to reflect the actual status of 2004 Election and reported Irregularities. -- RyanFreisling @ 20:17, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I don't see much actual debate on this talk page by either side. In my opinion there really is no reason to list election controversy info on Bush's bio article, it serves no purpose. A bio page is not a place for indirectly applicable current events or information that changes rapidly in my opinion. In fact, for the election fraud to be exposed it may take a few honest republicans. Zen Master 20:52, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
People keep trying to remove passages that are unflattering to Bush, notably by arguing against the criticism -- Hatfield was a felon, Wormer didn't examine Bush, the Yale professors who graded him were probably liberal bigots, etc. The NPOV policy certainly requires that we not endorse any particular opinion, pro or con -- but NPOV permits, indeed requires, the reporting of those opinions, properly attributed. I'm restoring the huge mass of material that's been removed. That's not to say that all of it is perfectly OK. For example, there's this statement about Bush's governorship: "His tenure in office featured a positive reputation for bipartisan leadership." Now, that's an opinion, and unlike the negative things about Bush, it's not properly attributed and sourced. An article about a controversial subject has a particular need for editors to cite their sources. Someone notable could probably be found who said something like that, which is why I'm leaving it in for now, but it should be attributed. JamesMLane 16:43, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I could pick this entire article apart with the constant unfootnoted inuendo such the repeated use of the terminology of "others have said" "it is the opinion" and each and everytime, this is without a reference to a source of who the "others" are. Let's look at another figure who may be considered to be a controversial leader, namely Robert E. Lee. Now in Lee's case, there is plenty of room for allusion, opinion and positions that are not NPOV. Yet I fail to find them there...the entire article meets the criteria of size and shape and offers a basic synopisis of the facts though in a brief format somewhat lacking in details that may be of importance to those that need more to diet on. I believe that the vast majority of the articles in Wiki are without bias and without inuendo based on weak and transparently leftist or right wing bias and take a NPOV. In the case of a few though, primarily those of more recent political aspects, it is hopelessly biased and the truth is that this bias is to the left. Constant reference to the kind of inuendo by those that perpetrate this to be good science fail to see that the support of the leftist arguments are no more reliable for truth than the National Enquirer would be. The reasoning that since it was written and therefore an opinion and is mentioned along with detractions that the source is without support is a built in refutation of the evidence and therefore it should be excluded. "This guy or organization said this, yet this guy or organization is essentially an unreliable witness to said events"...how does that philosophy make it credible to be included in what is supposed to be a NPOV article? With that in mind, it seems no different that an article on North American mammals should discuss Bigfoot because on at least 50 occasions, Bigfoot was spotted here or there as reported in certain issues of the National Enquirer. Editing out the inuendo of this article is good reporting. If anyone thinks I edited out all the "bad" or negative information about Bush, they are gravely mistaken. JamesMLane and similar charged persons are passionately opposed to Bush, while I am no fan of his, I am conservative and would not have voted for Kerry under almost any circumstance. Yet, polical affiliations aside, the negative aspects of this article are placed here without regard to their questionable source due to the fact that the detractors of Bush wish to slander him.--MONGO 21:06, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I did that aleady when I mentioned the Salon article. Where is their source for their allegation? I could start on online magazine or paper which made plenty of inuendo and provided propaganda of some sort or another. Because I said it in my paper, would it be a citable source for Wiki articles even if it itself provided no references or named sources? Depending on which version of this article you are talking about is the number of times you can find the passage of, in essence, "others have said" or similar. I once counted it 5 times. Naturally, I wouldn't expect a footnote in regards to his date of birth. I do expect, since a simple query in Yahoo brings you to this article within 5 links, that less innocent ones may wish to research the subject without having to be subjected to it's obvious left wing sentiment and unsubstantiated propaganda.--MONGO 07:50, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I agree that "others have said" and the like, at least where it presents controversial unsourced material, is not acceptable. Your edit was unacceptable, MONGO. Citation of a report under NPOV does not require that the primary source of newspaper/journal-reported allegations upon which we report be available. The newspaper/journal report is encyclopedic in itself (though the lack of a named primary source can be and should be noted). The removal was also far more extensive than justified by your criticism of the Salon report. You removed the entire section starting "Katherine Van Wormer" and ending with 'knew random drug testing was going to be implemented"', with the exception of the paragraph starting "The New York Times article". I am reverting the sections you removed for these several and distinct reasons. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 11:40, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I created the 'Opinion Pieces' sub-section so that some of the partisan commentary could be referenced there as opposed to in the main article. However, there should probably be some rules governing what sorts of opinion pieces are best-suited to the section and the article. It seems logical that, if an opinion piece is intelligently written and references factual circumstances or sources, it should be included. It's a bit tricky, though, to know when to draw the line. Perhaps the best policy is to review each link on a submission-by-submission basis. I'd say that a good goal for this section could be to avoid simple-minded propoganda for one viewpoint or another and aim for intelligent pieces. But, I know opinions will vary. So, if anyone has any input, it would be well-appreciated.
The article still appears as somewhat left of NPOV, yet the current revision is the best one I have seen yet as of 12:30, 24 Jan 2005 Ferkelparade. I can concede this as an adequate series of alterations, and would not disagree with internal links to the Salon reports, Hatfield's book and van Wormer's discussion, so long as they don't constitute the main body of the article and remain as links to further reading if someone chooses to read such items.--MONGO 13:26, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The summary simply eviscerated all mention of substantive reports except to repeat Bush's own denials. Since the President's past life does attract a lot of interest (the afterword to the Hatfield biography, Boehlert's Salon piece, van Wormer's bizarre ad hoc diagnosis) I don't think a summary is appropriate here, and this summary in particular does not capture the breadth of speculation directed at the President by the media both before and during his Presidency. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 13:35, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
It is obvious to me that the administrator(s) of this page and major contributors to this article wish to present, as a major component of the article, unsubstantiated drivel as part of the basic synopsis of the life of Bush, which explains the current protected article. Repeatedly, it has been mentioned that I consider this to be poor reporting which should be eliminated. I conceded that I would support a brief mention of the unsubstantiated bias if it were linked to another source and out of the main body of this article. Those that say that I wish to see no negative aspect of the man here are deluded. I simply wish to see the facts, without the leftist bias, that are worthy as a form of communication and worthy of this forum. That the page is protected in situ in an earlier form makes it obvious to me that the administrator(s) are not to be persuaded that their position is not NPOV and that instead they use this medium as a way to argue that the irrelevent is relevent and that what rational human beings would regard as speculation, opinion and slander would be permissible in this article. The mention of these items of dispute is one thing, the elaboration of them is another. Obviously, this article is a poor example of what normally appears in Wiki, in that it is not NPOV...it is leftist bias, plain and simple. The page was protected because the adminstrators(s) wish to filibuster any attempts to weed out bad reporting.--MONGO 20:20, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The source given for the van Wormer thing was CounterPunch. In my opinion this is a fairly obscure source. I propose to remove the reference to the van Wormer "analysis" unless she should be shown to be notable or a more prominent source is found than CounterPunch. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 13:43, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I still say that this entire paragraph needs to be removed:
It has not been vetted through an actual physical or mental examination. If there were a report by a Bush physician that hinted there was "Dry Drunk" syndrome, I'd say leave it in. What we have here is someone who is trying to negatively label someone whose opinions and actions she disagrees with. Why don't we have a new article called "Wild Accusations About President Bush"? This would be a much better place to put this article! First Lensman 13:52, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
If it is a fact that Pat Robertson claimed that Bush has been sent by God to lead his country, then Pat Robertson's prominence, and the prominence with which the claim was published, would establish whether the claim was worthy of note. The fact reported would not be "Bush sent by God" but "Famous televangelist with massive following claims Bush sent by God." This is the essence of NPOV. We don't say Bush was or was not sent by God, we say Pat Robertson says this. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 14:36, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
What swung it for me was The Irish Times. Published author in CounterPunch isn't much. Published author in the newspaper of record of a European nation of four million people and a longstanding US ally, that's quite a lot. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 14:46, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I agree absolutely that it doesn't validate it. (I believe the article was originally an opinion piece in the Irish Times, actually). What it does is make it noteworthy. If we only reported opinions that were validated, Wikipedia would be a very small website. Instead Wikipedia reports opinions that are published prominently enough to gain wide circulation. If something is in the Irish Times, I can read it by popping down to my local newsagent in London. I should expect the same is true in most large US cities. That's what I call prominent. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 15:28, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
"If we only reported opinions that were validated, Wikipedia would be a very small website." -- well at least small-er and I'm all for this !!! My concern is that by having a whole paragraph so prominent concerning an unproven opinion printed in a foriegn newspaper will make students believe it is truth, which it isn't. This encyclopedia is a resource that is not only used by adults, who can make the determination that it's hogwash, but by students, who can't make that determination. That is why we have to stick to "proven" facts and place a reference to the opinion piece in the Irish Times down in the "opinion" section that was just started. First Lensman 15:41, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
If "students" will believe something is true just because it's printed in a newspaper, Wikipedia cannot help them. It is not Wikipedia policy to suppress reporting of opinion for fear of being seen to endorse that opinion, but you're welcome to start your own fork of Wikipedia that operates on policy to be determined by you. If we stuck only to proven facts we'd have to get rid of all reported third party opinion--this on a person who owes his office to the opinion of third parties. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 16:09, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
It is more apparent than ever to me that those that disagree with some of the context of this article are to be denied the opportunity of editing and that the administrator(s) pretend to open this up to a forum of discussion whereby a concensus will be reached that will result in those that are not to the extreme left and wish this article to actually be NPOV will find appeasement. Rubbish. The page is protected in an effort to maintain the bad reporting and to extend as encyclopedic left wing bias and propaganda. I doubt anything disussed here will result in any major improvements to this rag of an article because the administrator(s) are hopelessly POV, anti-Bush and determined to slander his character. They impose martial law because they are unwilling to admit that their position is weak. We can argue about the situation forever, but there is no doubt in my mind that unless you agree with the major contributors of this rag you will never get appeasement. Let's not pretend to think that we can hash things out here. Open to discussion...it's like farting in the wind.--MONGO 20:52, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
You quoted me three times and then belittle me with inuendo that I am a dog. I accuse you of being biased and having deliberately protected THE WRONG PAGE. I guess in one paragraph you did a sufficient job of proving that the protection was done as a hostle act. Perhaps you are not worthy of being an admistrator to this article. Prove me wrong and unprotect or perhaps I'll follow your advice.--MONGO 11:44, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
MONGO, I feel that you're partially responsible for the locking of this article. I've watched the revision history and it seems to be a good deal of people vs MONGO. I don't care if you're a fan of President Bush, you are removing factual information from the article. Just because said information has negative connotations does not make it untrue. Even references were provided.
Whoa, many of you mistake firm disagreement for anger and use of strong tone as wrath. I mean no harm here. I have mentioned previously that I wanted to see the elimination of certain passages because I considered them to be bad reporting. I moderated that request to say that I concur to the BRIEF mention of the articles I keep deleting with a sentence that explains and directs the informed reader to a link which can elborate as much as necessary to support the commentary. I did not and do not think that the Salon article, the J.H. Hatfield book nor the van Wormer material to be reliable witnesses and have compared them to National Enquirer level of reporting. But, as I stated, I would agree to a link to these articles. No sooner do I make this concession do I find this article protected and hence my disappointment and accusations. Trust me in this: I still find that even with these articles completely removed, the entire article is biased. In the eyes of a conservative, I consider much of it to be revisionist history and smacking of left wing slander which I have a serious problem with. Without trying to insult further, I also have serious doubts that my efforts and or my concession will be honored.--MONGO 09:01, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Whoa whoa whoa. I requested the page protection of George W. Bush at WP:RFP due to all the reverts being made at the page history. Some of them were vandalism, and some of them were disagreements over POV/NPOV. In any rate, it seemed some of the vandalism and NPOV corrections were being lumped together. It looked as much as edit war with vandalism in progress. As I can not personally approve the request myself, even though I am an administrator, I went through the proper channels and waited for other people to agree and approve the request. -- AllyUnion (talk) 09:53, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)-
AllyUnion, thanks for going through the appropriate channels to get this page protected. I do appreciate that. However I disagree that there is any substantive edit warring going on. Mongo making edits to remove stuff and a few different people restoring it, and the odd attempt at producing a compromise, in my opinion doesn't merit protection. The vandalism is a different matter but apparently it is normal for this page and with all the eyes watching it the page content is in no danger from vandalism.
I'm not in agreement with Mongo that the page is biased (or rather, I remain to be convinced on the matter). I also don't have any problem with people who disagree with me and think the current content dispute or the vandalism merits protection--it would be a dull old world if we always agreed all the time. But I remain of the opinion that the page should probably be unprotected to enable us to use normal editing to work out a good compromise on the content that Mongo disagrees with. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 11:28, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for proving me wrong and unprotecting the page.--MONGO 08:29, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I removed the following statement
However it is a fact that in 1999 Amy Reiter of Salon.com reported on the rumor and also reported on Salon's phone conversation with the director of the center, Madge Bush, who she reported as saying of George W. Bush (no relation): "I've never heard of him doing community services here at this agency, and I've been the only director for 31 and a half years." There is no reason to cast this in an uncertain light. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 22:56, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I see it to be bad reporting. Why would you put this inuendo in here, if it is self discrediting unless the goal was to allude to Bush having used cocaine. If that constitutes what should be considered encyclopedic than there is no reason I cannot begin to edit in articles from known right wing periodicals which are also self discrediting. Quid pro quo, my friend. I say remove all the inuendo from this article which includes unsubstantiated reporting such as one would expect from Salon. I think it has been twisted around in here long enough and discussed and it seems that some folks here would like it to be true, when it is not. Personally, I would be surprised if Bush didn't use cocaine! But I would rather it come from a more solid resource that can truly support the allegation.--MONGO 10:16, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
None of the sources report that Bush used cocaine; like you they wouldn't be surprised but unlike you they have actually investigated, they have followed up what leads they could find and reported factually on the outcome. Omitting the sources would sound like a cover-up; everybody knows the rumors and it is a matter of legitimate public concern on a man's fitness for public office. Putting them in and detailing the investigations (which are generally of reasonable quality) and the conclusions (largely negative--little or no evidence found to support the allegations) is fairer to the reader, whom I presume to be reasonably intelligent and able to evaluate the evidence presented for himself. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 10:29, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I don't consider all readers of this to be intelligent and able to make up their own minds, I consider a large number of them to be "innocents" in that they may be coming to this site so that they can reference what is in most cases, reliable reporting, and using the references for a term paper, etc. I'm sorry, but I do not consider Salon to be NPOV and I have clicked the links in this article and am shocked that anyone would consider this to be any better than National Enquirer type of mish mash. It is all argumentative and as such, it should remain outside of this article. I do not appreciate the innuendo that I didn't do my research as well. As I said, I think many would like it to be true, and maybe it is, but nothing you have offered is anything other than liberal anti-Bush POV, and the continued use of this type of poor reporting is unworthy of Wikipedia.--MONGO 11:09, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Then at the least, since you yourself seem to be unable to prove the allegation due to the unsubstantitive and weak argument provided by Salon, for the sake of the innocent reader, return the statement that the article is not substantive: The validity of the claims asserted (by) Amy Reiter and Salon.com are uncertain. I would consider this to be less POV and to be more in line with NPOV. Yeah, I know, NO ARTICLE REALLY IS NPOV....but this one doesn't come close! The inclusion of anything from Salon, which specializes sensationalist reporting is certainly not of the level of say The Washington Post et al and other more traditionally liberal/centrist mediums. This article might be substantive in a treatise on Bush under the label of mud on the President, but I can hardly accept it as worthwhile to be placed in here. To most readers, this article is an example of how NOT to write a term paper and thesis....--MONGO 19:38, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Argument circular...the entire treatise makes and or alludes and imposes on readers the thought that whether it is true or not, there is the possiblilty that he is currently a cocaine user. I repeat that it is a slander based on less than creditable sources. I would not consider the Salon innuendo to be anything other than hypothetical.--MONGO 20:00, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Disagree. I didn't say anything about him never using drugs or being a former alcoholic. I just said that the remarks allude to make the reader think that this is still the case. Whether it says it is the case isn't the point, the point is that the illusion is that he still does. Round and round we go. I am quite familiar with all the charges and they are unsubstantiated. Why is it so difficult to wish to stick to the facts that can be proven unless the piece is supposed to be an exercise in slander? Examples: we know the facts such as his name, where he was born, comments from his speeches, legislation he dealt with, his confession to being a drunk, the premise he had to go to war with Iraq...we know these things are as solid as concrete. But when I see this type of innuendo, that is all written based on circumstantial evidence or heresay, then I see no place here for it. Sure, state facts about opinions etc. I have read all that and that's fine....but isn't this supposed to be NPOV....how is circumstantial evidence that is not backed up by facts appropriate here unless you are trying to push a point of view? Example: I've seen the video of Bush at the wedding, acting goofy and at the end he does certainly appear to swallow down the nasty lasty of a glass of something....but is it beer, is it alcohol, or is it water? Who knows! It can't be proven that it was alcohol and there is no one to collaborate that it was alcohol. These type of items are not appropriate because they are conjecture and they are misleading. Once again, I know, facts about opinions...well, that doesn't suffice. Then whowrote this opinion?: Should Bush not meet with the NAACP before he leaves office, he will become the first sitting President to have not met with the NAACP since Herbert Hoover. How can anyone ascertain future? ybe he will meet with the NAACP and maybe he won't...but the innuedo suggests that he is a bigot to the casual reader. The FACTS that Bush appointed Powell to the highest cabinet post ever held by an African American man and followed that up by having Rice confirmed for the same post, becoming the highest level attained by an African American female, is hardly alluded to....just a comment that his cabinet is the most ethnically diverse. My extrapolated point is that the entire article is filled with uses of certain words, inclusion of circumstantial evidence and omission of some positive issues which makes this thing look almost like some childish prank.--MONGO 08:41, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
In a perfect world, I would like to see all this stuff...Hatfield's book, van Wormer's opinion, the Salon referenced issues, and other skeptical sources of knowledge to be withdrawn. I would settle for them to be greatly condensed and then linked to another piece which can be as detailed as anyone would wish, based on the Wikipedia standards, which I would not edit. ie: It is the opinion of some that Bush has used cocaine in the past, has consumed alcohol after claiming that he no longer drank alcohol, has been considered to be clinically a Dry Drunk....etc.....for further clarification on these issues the reader is directed here.....and then create a "Bush substance abuse controversy page"...outside of the main body of this article. But, I am still not satisfied...as witnessed to my bringing up the issue of Bush not meeting with the NAACP. I don't think forecasts of the future should be in here....unless you can find where it was referenced from, which I suspect may be hard to do. But if anyone can, the Wikihawks can.--MONGO 11:53, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Now that is a FACT...and should be included, but it doesn't address the speculation that he will not still meet with them...so that part needs to go. See, you Wikihawks are so resourceful....continue to find true FACTS and you'll never get an argument out of me...--MONGO 12:37, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The newer version of the box (as found in this version of the article) seems to me to be not an improvement. Wikilinking some key points, like Bush's predecessory, wife, and VP, is helpful, even if they're also linked in article text; this pulls them together. Inclusion of the lines for death information is redundant when the box already says that he's the incumbent. More generally, use of the template makes it harder to edit. My attempts to edit within the changed format produced various forms of mess, so I finally gave up and went back to the old one. JamesMLane 09:11, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
i love george w. bush. he is by far one of the smartest men to serve our country !
Noticed reversal of edit I made which took out comparative statement of Bush and Clinton regarding federal budgets/deficit. This article is about Bush, not Clinton. The only relevency of reverting back to the the comparison would be to continue to cast Bush in a negative fashion which suits the leftwing and is therefore a POV. Everyone knows that Bush has created a gigantic federal deficit and that information is a FACT and should be included, but the article is not about Clinton, so his budget surpluses are not relevent.--MONGO 13:29, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Still feel that that this alludes to and enhances the reader's view that Bush has done a worse job than his predecessor and everyone already knows who that was. It passes judgement and doesn't take into account that the main reasons for the deficits are related to such things as a downturn in the economy (which was already happening prior to Bush's first election), the impact of 9/11, the fact that Bush cut taxes, and then had a huge military spending bill passed...something that Clinton didn't have to do per se. I say state the facts and let the reader be educated and enlightened, not state the facts and let the reader decide...this constitutes the great rift between myself and many of the editors here. Likewise, could we put in there that so far, Bush has had a better professional relationship with his White House interns than Clinton, in that he has yet to use his position of power to use that as a magnet to young obsessive women? I think not.--MONGO 21:14, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Well like it or not, MONGO, fiscal performance is something that US Presidents have been judged on since Carter at least. Chasing interns around the Oval Office, while not compulsory, doesn't seem to have hurt the last incumbent's reputation in the long term. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 22:07, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Well, without going to far off on that tangent, I was not the least bit unhappy with Clinton until the situation with the intern came up, so his reputation in my eyes from that point on went downhill. Iused this contrast to show that I didn't want to do comparisons, not because I do...and you can't predict the future.--MONGO 08:45, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)
68.49.191.97 please identify yourself by contributing here in discussion or remove the tag please.--MONGO 09:02, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I'll remove it with an edit comment asking whoever to make an entry here explaining why he disputes the factual accuracy of the piece. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 11:11, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Personally, I thought it was a good idea, but agree with you that if it is to be done, they should hash it out here.--MONGO 12:02, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Where is the proof?
--Relaxation 18:41, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Did you read the article? The parts talking about the businesses he owned/ran? That's your proof. RickK 23:46, Jan 29, 2005 (UTC)
[delete copyright violation] - RickK 23:49, Jan 29, 2005 (UTC)
--Relaxation 20:14, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Neither "positive" or "negative" facts belong in an encyclopedia.
Also, Taking a statement like "Bush is a fool, a charlatan and a criminal"... and changing it to "X said that `Bush is a fool, a charlatan and a criminal'"
is an extremely transparent and futile attempt to make such statements seem neutral.
80% of this article has a hopelessly transparent political bias.
An encyclopedia should only contained generally accepted information that everybody agrees is true, not a debate.
This page needs peer review... if there's any hope for Wikipedia at all.
I second that. The article is approached with one goal by major contributors and that is to cast Bush in a bad light. It is not a NPOV article by any measure of the imagination. We need to be careful with the wording of positive and negative facts...if they are facts, then they belong...but these facts are based on concrete evidence and without any major skeptical sourcing or innuendo. There is no doubt in my mind when some of the people that have reverted my edits claim to be to the far left politically...."left of scary leftists", "hostile to the right", or display a Soviet Union Hammer and Sickle medal on their user page (as if that is something to be pround of in light of what it was like to be in the Soviet union in the 1930's for the average citizen) etc., etc. that those that wish to continue to leave this work as the benchmark are doing so to push their opinion and that opinion is to slander Bush from a left wing perspective, not to educate based on the provable evidence.--MONGO 16:06, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Well, I added this to illustrate what a piece of junk this entire article is: "Eric Alterman, some political columnist that I just googled off the web 3 minutes ago, said in The Nation (http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20021125&s=alterman) that "Bush is a liar".
A friend of mine once said that Bush was mentally retarded. He based this view on listening to Bush's speeches - particularly his use of poor grammar. He hasn't written an opinion piece for any newspapers, but he's probably a lot smarter than whoever the hell Katherine van Wormer is."
Ironically, I don't even *like* Bush - but I have some idea about what sort of material belongs in an Encyclopedia and what doesn't. I shouldn't have bothered but, hey, it's a Sunday and I'm bored.
This page demonstrates everything that is wrong with Wikipedia. Heading back to the mathematics section which at least isn't full of raving mis-guided lunatics. - anonymous (guy who made a good-faith effort to improve this article the first time around anyway)
Yeah, I liked that edit, and would have edited out more but sensed that it was foolish to engage in edit wars, so I decided to hash it out in discussion. Truthfully, being new to editing, I mistakenly took out more than I thought I had. Repeatedly, I have stated that I feel that this article is a vehicle of exercise in how not to write an encyclopedic NPOV article, and have stated that I expect that this article if any would be filled with POV, both left and right wing. I doubt that the major contributors to this are anything other than very intelligent people, but am mystified at their choice of quotes and quality of evidence. A large portion of this article reads like a left wing slam fest, not as a NPOV article. I have also stated that what appears to be the hawks that watch over this page have openly stated in their user pages and in other written form that they come from a far left perspective on the matter and are therefore incapable of remaining neutral, especially in this situation.--MONGO 08:31, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Really? What about Bush is controversial? I mean isn't he universally liked...what with the "Mandate" he has! But here's the thing, if known left leaning periodicals and other forms of reporting which use sensationalist forms of editing suffice to be considered good sources for this forum, then why not the National Enquirer...why not Rush Limbaugh??? I mean I could reluctantly go into Rush and find all sorts of grandstanding about Bush...but I consider his opinion to be right wing, not NPOV. I dunno, it still looks to me like this thing is hopelessly POV. Also liked the editor (silsor) linking me into the boilerplate complaints page...saw that yesterday...but then he took out the link from there back to here...I thought I was almost famous! infamous?--MONGO 09:08, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Well, that is my point isn't it? If the sourcing for your version of encyclopedic citation is as it is then why not include all subversive horseradish on the guy even if it is about Bush being a reptillian kitten eater from another planet. Is it really postulated that books that are pulled from shelves, vague little known social workers with obscure opinions cited in vague obscure sensationalist POV magazines and other sources of what you refer to as creditable witness should be included in this article, then why not the National Enquirer...or Rush Limbaugh? I understand that Rush Limbaugh has a large following on the air and on line...so certainly his right leaning bias should be admissible, that is if your left leaning mumbo jumbo is. I look through the John Kerry article and I consider it to be much reduced in POV...much more neutral...there still is the supposed controversy over his military service etc., but the article isn't some effort to be a slam fest by either the right or the left wing political factions. The leftist bias in this rag are as plain as the nose on your face! I think some are so caught up in vilifying Bush that they can't get around their hatred of him enough to ever be neutral.--MONGO 11:53, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
":I believe that the coverage of Kerry and the coverage of Bush (both in multiple articles) are largely in keeping with Wikipedia policy. "
OK - that's your opinion. A lot of people (including myself) strongly disagree with you. That makes this material controversial, and this article, as it states at the top, is already way too long and difficult to navigate. A compromise that has already been suggested is to place this stuff in a separate "Bush drug controversy" article. People could then still debate the accuracy/relevancy/objectivity of including the claims there.
In a normal Encyclopedia, the editor retains control of the content. That can be bad, if she is biased, but at least her name goes on the article. Everyone knows who she is, and history can judge what she wrote and whether she was a true scholar or not.
In Wikipedia, it is only those who are willing and able to tirelessly revert/change edits that keep control of the content. This won't be the smartest, or most knowledgeable people. It will be those with enough time to sit and monitor a page day-in, day-out. IMO, that's going to rule out the people most qualified to write the article.
Even better! It has already occurred to the conspiracy theorist in me that if a political party really cared enough about the content of this site, they could *pay* someone to watch and edit pages like this. i.e. the highest bidder can effectively buy what is written on Wikipedia, just by paying some individual (or group of individuals) to "watch"/"revert" it continuously.
Worse, because this editing can be done anonymously, no-one can even allege/prove that it is happening (unlike normal political advertising).
Perform a google search for "George W Bush" and this Wikipedia article makes it on the first page. That's got to be worth some votes, if the page says what you want it to say.
Now that is scary...and it brings up my point made before and that is that when you run a search off almost any browser for George Bush, this article comes up in one to five links. I doubt the conspiracy theory, but it's as possible as thinking that this van Wormer fool who has never had a one on one personally with Bush should be able to be considered a creditable witness regardless of her level of expertise on the issue of who is and who isn't a DRY DRUNK. Her innuendo of slurred speech...expert opinion...hogwash. But there is a lot more...I can hardly wait for her expert opinion...[3]. Who would buy the books people like her sell if they weren't full of their "expert" opinion. If someone can cite any known clinical proof based on an actual medical and or psychological evaluation and diagnosis from a person to person examination of George Bush and which shows validity to the argument that Bush is a Dry Drunk, then by all means, it should be in here...but to quote some person who has never met with Bush in a patient/doctor scenario is tantamount to pushing a POV.--MONGO 12:37, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The parties in this dispute seem to be on a path that usually leads deep into the dispute resolution process. Have they considered taking the same approach that was done with the national guard allegations, and moving the details to George W. Bush drug controversy, or something similar? Gazpacho 10:18, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
My argument is over the entire article. It is over the content, the dubious quality of the evidence, and the use of verbage. I suggested before that the entire area of discussion in regards to his drinking, drugs and other related weaknesses be placed on another page, and there the user can decide. But for the bulk of this article much would still need to be done to make it neutral. I say let the reader be enlightened and educated with FACTS...not by opinions which can be construed as facts by the less articulate.--MONGO 12:09, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
It looks like you're losing your right wing propaganda censorship war, Mongo. Propose and/or create separate pages for any positive facts as well as negative facts, and you probably wouldn't have any problem with anyone other than the vandalizing idiots. This page and this talk page is getting way too big. --Karmafist 02:02, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Right wing propaganda censorship war? Hardly. If you are leftist enough to think that I have ever deliberately edited out any substantive negative facts then there is no hope for you. I say the major contributors that hawk over this page come here with a predisposition to use much less than credible reporting and then attempt to pass it off as encyclopedic. The reason this article is too long is because of all the mish mash. I haven't made continuous editing to his oil deals, his Texas Rangers profiteering, the argument that he lied essentially about why we needed to wage war in Iraq...once again, I have stated that the innuendo of his cocaine use, the dry drunk garbage and all that other stuff takes up 80 percent of the section on his personal life section. I think folks like you just want to use this medium as a way to lampoon Bush, not as a way to educate.--MONGO 11:46, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Well here's one of your edits: [4]. You edited out quite a lot of good reporting of the various negative opinions, rumors and whatnot that Bush has tended to accrue. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 14:49, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I do think you have deliberately edited out substative negative facts, and there is hope for me, regardless of what your censor-happy extremist opinion is.
And if you don't realize by now that his reason for going to war with Iraq (Weapons of Mass Destruction) was a lie, then i'm sorry MONGO, but there is no hope for you.
--Karmafist 20:05, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Wow, what a revelation you bring, Karmafist...is that possible? Is it possible that we went to war with Iraq due to a lie...or maybe it was to finish what Daddy couldn't...or maybe it was purely due to oil...oh, yeah, so Halliburton could reap a big windfall...sure, it's possible that Bush has killed thousands just because of his vanity. Let's agree to disagree. As far as editing, Tony, I see that the vast bulk of your arguement is based on sensationalist POV reporting from known left wing sources.--MONGO 20:57, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Gazpacho, I think your edit omits too much. To Bush supporters, it's important to note that Hatfield had a felony conviction and that his original publisher withdrew the book. To Bush detractors, it's important to note that Bush said he had no drug use in the 15 years preceding 1989 but refused to answer as to the period before 1974. I do agree with you about the anonymous email as a source, and I've tried to clarify that the email was contradicted when journalists checked with the very contact suggested in the email. Also, in looking into this, I found that our article copied too much verbatim from Salon, so I reworded some passages. I also put in more sources. You removed the link to Bush's characterization of Hatfield's book as "totally ridiculous", but I think that, on a controversial subject, it's especially important to cite sources. JamesMLane 11:59, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
What's his view on hunting?
--Relaxation 17:42, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I noticed that opinion pieces were briefly discussed above. However, I don't believe a consensus was reached on whether this section should be kept or what links should be included. I'm raising the questions again after I noticed that the "Against Bush" links outnumber the "For Bush" links 6 to 1. All of the links (on both sides) are extremely partisan (as would be expected) and add very little, if anything, to the article. I propose that this section be eliminated. I don't believe this section serves any purpose other than to give biased users a chance to insert POV links into the article. Carrp 20:30, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
No one is stopping anyone from adding "For Bush" links. And the whole purpose of opinions is a POV -- these viewpoints on this extremely contreversial president add to the depth of this article. However, it would be good if made some more spinoff articles.
--Karmafist 20:47, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Don't rationalize with him...he is only here to push a leftwing bunch of rubbage...I don't think Bush is extremely controversial...only those that are extremist to the left would label him as such.--MONGO 21:10, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
No I said that those pushing the leftist bias of this article are extremist to the left. I suggest that many others here need to assume good faith and put it into practice by making some attempt at transforming this article into a neutral one. I could hardly agree that there is a conspiracy here to present a left leaning viewpoint and I anticipate that many of the folks here are from academia (which has a natural liberal tilt, no insult intended)or are not in favor of presenting a neutral article because they do not agree with Bush's policies, his actions or his deeds. That is fine, but if they can't let go of this bias, then they shouldn't contribute here if they expect this article to ever be neutral. I have been accused repeatedly of removing ALL bad information in the article and that is simply false. What makes you think that all those that voted for John Kerry did so because they believe that Bush is controversial? Perhaps they voted against Bush more than for Kerry...in that they oppose the current Iraq war and are dissatisfied with the economy, etc. You stated: "there are a lot of websites about Bush. There are supporters and opponents, but opponents are probably more strongly motivated to put up a website." So in essence you answered my premise that the major contributors here are, in all liklihood, opponents of Bush. If you look for answers to support your premise then you'll probably find them. If you come here with a predispostion against someone or something, then in all liklihood, that will be produced in the evidence you gather. I say get rid of the opinion pieces...they are opinion and have no reason to be here.--MONGO 09:47, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
You should infer that I didn't happen to notice it. I removed the opinion pieces because they are , uh, opinions. Who cares about someone's opinions. I continue to say the opinion pieces should be removed. I don't know that the Afgan elections were a huge success. But I can say that since elections were held, and though they may have been seriously flawed in comparison to what us lucky westerners get to enjoy, they were still a step in the right direction. I bet some here wish democracy in Afganistan and Iraq would fail, just so you could enjoy the opportunity to see the policies of the current administration also as failures. I also remember quite vividly when Reagan was President and how all the leftist said he was leading us down a path towards nuclear war and how he was a threat to world peace. Time will tell.--MONGO 12:18, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I stated before that the purpose of an opinion pieces section would ideally be to have a few select external links for each point of view that are well-chosen in that they are referenced, cogent and defensible. I believe the value in this is to provide for greater understanding about the various viewpoints which surround the current President. There are things that do not belong in a strictly encyclopedic article that are, nevertheless, informative and important in gaining a clearer understanding of the 'greater picture' surrounding an issue. If the consensus believe this section should not belong, then it should be removed. However, I do not think a final agreement on the matter was reached before MONGO removed the section. I do not lightly make judgments about this sort of thing, but MONGO, I believe you have a very strong point of view. I respect that, but I also believe that occasionally your point of view clouds your judgment as an editor. I think this is something you should keep in mind when you're contemplating removing entire sections of an article. I will leave it for the community to decide whether it is appropriate to re-add the Opinion Pieces section or something akin to it. I strongly believe that the standards of NPOV should be adhered to, but, for the reasons stated above, I also strongly support a section wherein controversial subject-matter can link to the varying salient opinions on an issue. Xaliqen 02:47, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
MONGO, I don't check this page for a day and there's already a slew of replies to this discussion alone, let alone Bush himself. If you can't realize there's contreversy in this topic, then you don't understand what contreversy is.
Heck, Bush is easily one of the most contreversial figures, let alone presidents, in American History. One just needs to look at his polling numbers from 9/11 when they were around 90 percent to just before the election when they were around 50. In a mere three years he managed to piss off 40 percent of the American population, and if he didn't secure Ohio Secretary of State Blackwell's wrongdoing, he'd probably have sprung a coup by now.
As for your POV concerns, you should follow your own advice, you constantly censor things that don't jibe with your world views. Opinions are never correct or incorrect, only facts are. Unfortunately, facts are often shaded with people's opinions, so what can be proven and what cannot is blurred(read up on defamation for more on this). I don't delete extremist right wing opinions unless they are presented as false facts because I am a liberal, and one of the key beliefs of being a true liberal is taking everyone's opinion into account(those on "our side" who think otherwise are just as conservative as Bush, if only as a counter-conservative)
And as for spinoff articles, my suggestion was meant towards making the main page into basically a directory of Wikilinks in order to shrink the page down to a managable size.
--Karmafist 05:42, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Haven't heard that one...well, I did hear it but it was swept under the table...the Ohio vote I am referring to...but maybe it didn't make a big splash in the press because they have all become right wing nut cases and are therefore duty bound to suppress all negative views on Bush. Just as I have been doing here, right? Let me state this very clearly..I consider a large portion of this article to be leftwing bias. I would like to delete a lot more than I ever have in any one single deletion. Those that think that I have edited out all the negative are not being factual. I could go into lots of right wing articles and link them into this and I don't because I think that would be pushing a POV. I am not asking for anything other than for everyone here to make an attempt to be neutral. But remarks about coups, fixed elections or how 40% of the American people became pissed off can hardly be construed to be anything other than your political bias clouding your ability to remain neutral. Just because 40% of the people became dissatisfied enough to voice a negative opinion poll doesn't mean they were pissed off. People rallied around the national leader in a time of crisis and his polls rose, when the economy slumped and then the war in Iraq bogged down, the polls dropped. Bush alienates most liberals because he is quite conservative for our time. But that doesn't mean that this forum should be used as a medium to demonize him. I don't go into the John Kerry or Bill Clinton or Hillary Clinton articles and force some right wing sensationalist allegations and opinions there. Weren't we talking about opinion pieces? I say get rid of them...the opinions are not that illuminating anyway.--MONGO 10:50, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Why is it the folks who know the least, lecture the most? The statement of a 40% drop in the opinion polls isn't in the article fully...the above was my response to it being labelled as an example to prove that people were pissed of...which has no correlation.--MONGO 09:25, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Although MONGO says, "Who cares about someone's opinions", there are plenty of instances in which the objective reporting of a subjective opinion is sufficiently informative to be included. The Wikipedia policy to that effect also calls for attributing such opinions, though. I've therefore removed this unattributed sentence: "Advocates of the conquest of Iraq have responded by pointing out the billions of embezzled dolalrs those officials at the UN, and in several of the other opposing countries, had gained from the corruption of the Iraqioil for food program." Even aside from the improper characterization "conquest of Iraq", I don't think this belongs in the article about Bush unless the Bush administration commented on the subject. I'm sure the administration has criticized the Oil for Food program, but linking that program to other nations' stances at the UN is another matter. Putting it in this context implies that Bush has drawn that link, which shouldn't be stated unless it can be sourced. If it's only some other people raising the charge, it should be covered in Oil for Food program but not here. JamesMLane 18:44, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
In the above, JamesMLane and I have indeed questioned the validity because it was not attributed. If there is an attribution that would be verifiable and there would be no problem. Sometimes an item when it first appeats is no more than hearsay and weaseling, but the originator if he makes the effort can find an attributable source and transform it. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 18:36, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Why is Katherine van Wormer's opinion that Bush displays "all the classic patterns of addictive thinking" included in this article? As this is simply one person's opinion, shouldn't this be an external link in the opinion section? Carrp 16:11, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It is only here to cast Bush in a bad light. It is not a definition accepted by the medical community, not based on anything other than her opinions which were not reached in a typical doctor/patient scenario, and they are her words she has opinionated because she disagrees with Bush on a political basis. It is best off in the opinion pieces which I think don't belong here either. Just think, if you put it there, I have only one edit to do instead of two!--MONGO 10:42, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Because it is a cheap political point.....it is her opinion. Her opinion carries no more weight than yours or mine on this subject regardless of her supposed credentials because it is not based on a typical doctor/patient relationship and would not be rendered as fact by any medical journal or institute. Lots of opinions are published and lots of them are not based on facts...that is why they are opinions. It alludes that because she thinks he is suffering from this malase it explains the reasons why he acts the way he does and for the decisions he has made but it does this in an effort to push a POV, not because she is behaving in a typical concerned doctor manner.--MONGO 12:31, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but could you try to answer my question? How does van Wormer's behavior reflect badly on Bush? --Tony Sidaway|Talk 12:37, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Where did her behavior come in? Her behavior reflects badly on her, not on Bush. She is using her "expert opinion" to push her POV and to sell her book(s). I don't think I can make it simpler than that.--MONGO 13:10, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Good, then we're agreed that it doesn't reflect on Bush. Therefore by arguing for it to be there I'm not doing so in order to "cast Bush in a bad light", as you put it. I'm only putting it there because it's part of the story of the Bush Presidency that, like Clinton before him, he has sometimes experienced some rather overheated attacks upon his character in the quality press. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 14:18, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
We haven't agreed on anything as far as this goes. It has nothing to do with her behavior...it has to do with her unmedical opinion...and your continuous insistance that it is worthwhile reporting just because it appeared in a foreign newspaper...Her opinion casts Bush in a bad light because it insinuates that his behavior seems similar in her eyes to what she has come to know as a "dry drunk". Look, while assuming good faith, I cannot agree that her opinion is anything other than that and it is here because it helps support your own biases about him. Your question about her behavior has nothing to do with the point.--MONGO 09:18, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I removed this recent addition:
It's really just a "well my friends and I think this..." kind of insertion which isn't a lot of use (practically my whole city think that Bush is a raving nutcase but that isn't going into this article unless we run a poll). I think this kind of thing (especially the bit about misleading people) should have some kind of psephological basis. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 01:17, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps some extra pro-Bush articles could be added to the opinion pieces links. There's 1 pro link and 6 con.
I cut the Against link section down to three links which is, I think, a pretty good number to keep things at. If you have two good links you could add to the Pro section, then please do. --Xaliqen 12:13, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
In response to MONGO's latest edits "to make this more of a NPOV article", I made several changes, some prompted by his edit, some that should have been changed a while ago.
JamesMLane 11:41, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Your constant harping that van Wormers unmedical opinion should be in here at all is pretty silly too, James! How could the insertion of this be anything but support for your liberal bias....for the last time, it is a bunch of hogwash! The pet goat picture is another tired innuendo that Bush was perhaps perplexed...unknowing what to do next, after being told about the planes hitting the WTC towers etc...you have it here to support your bias that he is unintelligent...what other purpose could it serve other than that? What does that picture have to do with anything else? Tony sidaway keeps putting that picture back in after others take it out stating that he likes the picture...so what. What purpose does it serve except to allude to something untrue that was, in all liklihood, taken out of context. Show me where the grade point average is in the John Kerry article, or Bill Clinton. The left likes it here because they think it makes Bush look of average intelligence. Well, Lincoln had little if any formal education as did a number of other people highly regarded as intelligent. As far as budget comparisons, it is the same deal...you want it here because it continues to support your point of view. You think it is significant but it is taken out of context and fails to address the reasons. It is done as an innuendo to suggest that Bush is less capable than Clinton at managing his budget. I see little you add here that has any basis in neutrality, James. You even state that the issue of WMD sale by the U.S. to Iraq should be referenced, but you leave it in anyway. If it was an issue I had deleted you would quickly scamper to find some vague periodical that would support the claim, no matter how poorly regarded that article may be, just to bolster your neverending effort to display your radical left wing ideas of neutrality. Hence my discussion that we might as well cite the National Enquirer! There is every reason to eliminate the issue of Bush being cynical about the Tucker execution. Where is your reference for this? This article states "The execution of Karla Faye Tucker, who repented in prison and become a born-again Christian, was particularly controversial, in part because Bush appeared on television publicly mocking and mimicking her appeals for clemency." What television, and where? When I read this article it is so full of things taken out of context, falsehoods, innuendo which supports a leftwing bias and misconceptions it reminds of me of reading a treatise on evolution written by creationists.--MONGO 13:49, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I didn't know that the pet goat picture was in that documentary...but in light of the fact that that documentary was not seen by me, it should be no wonder. I'm sure I would have found it enlightening. You complain about me "bitching" and also tell me to "shut up". That's very nice. Here's my answer: when this article becomes neutral, then I will do both of those things. Incredible that you would tell me to assume good faith then demand that I shut up. I never claimed to say that Bush isn't to be credited with a huge federal deficit, only that it isn't necessary to compare it. The pet goat picture is only here because most of us remember that Bush did sit quizzing himself after being told about the WTC...so what..who wouldn't be in a state of shock somewhat...which is what I took it to be. I do not see the importance of it, especially since it isn't referenced. I didn't know it was in the documentary because I didn't see it. The issue of Karla Faye Tucker's execution and the supposed public mocking of the event by Bush isn't referenced either...where is the proof. Put the proof in there and it stays for sure, for I am opposed to the death penalty anyway. As far as WMD being sold by the U.S. to Iraq, I am not familar to this issue and need to research it more before I can discuss this matter. I have discussed Hatfield's book, which isn't even on the shelves anymore, as also being a less than credible source. I do see in this article many many links to other references, but I do not think they are in some cases very strong unbiased treatises on the issue referenced. If you wish to prove to me that you and others that find this article to be neutral then you won't do so by lecturing me, being condescending or by telling me to shut up.--MONGO 08:30, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It isn't so much the comparison, it is the context. I do not think it is up to us to analyize how a President did...to such a degree. The deficit can be blamed on many things, some of which include...reduced corporate profits and therefore reduced tax revenue, reduced taxes to citizens, increased spending especially for defense, and much lower on the list is the issue of 9/11...but that is still causal to some of the other tax hikes. I think it is enough to simply say that Bush has the largest federal deficit in history...and then the comparison isn't necessary. However, in comparison to the current GDP, the current deficit is still not a record. But to put that in would be a positive for Bush, so I don't add it because I do want this to be neutral.--68.13.116.52 21:17, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
What a gobshite! How the hell did he get a second term? do Americans read te newpapers? are they aware of politics at all? god help us.--Crestville 03:54, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
just wanted to maybe sort the book section by author's last name, unless someone has a problem i'll do it later tonight. --kizzle 19:45, Feb 6, 2005 (UTC)
The statement we had, that Bush mocked her on television, was wrong. She appeared on television (on Larry King). Tucker Carlson wrote a magazine article (in Talk) that reported on Bush's mocking of her TV appearance. I haven't looked up the paper copy of Talk, and website (like the magazine) is defunct, but the passage was quoted on many websites, so I'm comfortable with it unless and until someone finds it's an error. (Talk magazine, September 1999, page 106 is the cite I saw.) The link I gave is to a site quoting the article and also quoting a Salon interview with Carlson. I don't subscribe to Salon; maybe someone who does can check out the Salon link to verify it. (An amusing sidenote is that Carlson was worried that his profile would be seen as "a suck-up piece", but Salon characterized it as "the most damaging profile of [Bush] yet written". JamesMLane 21:42, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Here is a link to some further info regarding the Tucker incident: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17670 and here is another link from the National Review: http://www.nationalreview.com/daily/nr080999.html --Xaliqen 21:49, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC) Sorry, didn't realize that you'd already linked the NY Review of Books article --Xaliqen 21:53, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Everyone will have to forgive me for this and will probably chalk it up to what may be perceived as a pro Bush agenda...but I do not find either of these links satisfying. I know you researched it throughly but do not believe it to be substantial enough, and I would like to see a link to the original interview or quotes as they were reported in Talk. These links are secondary to the main article. If you can find a copy of that Talk edition, scan it in and create a website for it, I doubt there would be any copywrite enfringement in light of the magazine being defunct. The interviewer may feel otherwise...in that he is a conservative. I searched for the information myself and cannot find any to add. I will say that a quote from a magazine or article that quotes a now defunct magazine isn't sufficent unless the original citation can be accessed.--MONGO 07:07, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Then it needs to be found as I do not consider third party citations as qualifying.--MONGO 09:28, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I think I am coming accross as an obstructionist on this issue. Probably I am. It goes back to my belief that I don't think Salon or some of the other sources of information are very creditible in that they do tend to be sensationalistic and left wing. I've read up on this Carlson guy and it appears to me that his family influence is the main reason he is employed in his field, as he is not all that respected in his field, kind of a Rush Limbaugh type, going off the deep end on a number of issues, being insulting, etc. In that, he appears to be somewhat sensationalistic too. I am conceding defeat on this issue because I know now after looking hard myself that it isn't probably possible to find the original citation and all of you have found more credible citations than were here before. Furthermore, being a conservative, though I don't trust him, Carlson probably did witness this event during his interview with Bush and it is unlikely he would have recited it if it wasn't true. I still do not think the van wormer opinion or Hatfields book or anything from Salon to be creditible however. No, it's not that I accept bad information about Bush solely from conservative sources, I just find these three areas to be unworthy of Wikipedia standards.--MONGO 20:06, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This article doesn't need the TotallyDisputed tag. The way I see it, that's a heavy-duty tag that goes on articles that are blatantly biased, like, say, all those "Palestinian children" lists. George W. Bush is a controversial man, as all US Presidents were to some degree. No matter how neutral or accurate this article is, there will always be someone out there who disputes its neutrality/accuracy. Also, and I know this is no reason to take off the tag, this is obviously one of Wikipedia's most visible articles. Think of what that says about us, when one of our most basic, vital articles has an ugly tag reserved for the worst of the worst POV offenders. In addition, I haven't seen much of a case made on the talk page that this article truly is biased or inaccurate. Szyslak 02:50, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I couldn't disagree more. I think this article is nowhere near as neutral as other contemporary articles in which you would expect to find disagreements on context, sourcing of information and discussion. When I look at the pages on contemporary politicians such as Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, John Kerry etc., there is little if any flag waving either way...they appear to be tremendously more neutral than this article is. Let me provide examples: (1)The use of the Pet Goat picture here has no purpose except to put Bush in a bad light...why isn't there a picture of Monica Lewinsky in the Bill Clinton article? The ordeal is discussed and it represents one of the most disgusting abuses of power of any President, but it is discussed only briefly. In the John Kerry article there is a picture of him when he got arrested for an anti Vietnam protest but the entire connotations are different from the Pet Goat picture. (2)In the Bush article, there are numerous paprgraphs detailing his alleged drug and alcohol abuse, but all the sourcing is from conspicuously less than authoritative sources. Whereby in the Clinton article the issue of him smoking dope but not inhaling is mentioned but briefly. (3) In the John Kerry article, there is paragraph after paragraph detailing his actions which resulted in him winning numerous awards and only one paprgraph which discusses those that say his awards were not justified and even that paragraph has detractions built into it. The Bush article discusses only Bush's attempts, as it would read, to weasel out of service, with only one paragraph which discusses his promotions. That's three comparisons...there are many many more. This article is hardly a neutral treatise on the subject matter.--MONGO 08:41, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
There absolutely should be a picture of Monica Lewinsky in the Clinton article. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 16:14, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
We had some discussion late last year about the coverage of the election disputes in the lead section. My feeling then was that the controversy over the 2004 election was fresh enough that it would help orient the reader if we gave some information of the type that Neutrality has now put in the lead. Back then, however, some other editors were determined to keep this kind of thing out. Much as I disagreed with them then, I think that, with the Inauguration having passed, the election controversies don't deserve this much prominence. Obviously, the subject should be (and is) covered, but it doesn't seem to me that it needs to be in the lead section. We haven't revisited this question lately; what do others think? JamesMLane 03:44, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I agree that it is appropriate for the article to focus on whatever is timely. Insofar as the elections are now several months passed, it seems appropriate to focus on more timely subject-matter. If one finds it necessary to discuss the latest controversy, then it seems to me the controversy over Bush's appointments to Secretary of State and Attorney General are more timely than the election controversy. --Xaliqen 13:19, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It's amazing how positive facts/opinions on people like this can be viewed as "information" while negative facts/opinions are "POV problems". I don't like editing wars like most Wikipedians, but I will not be censored in the name of protocol. If you want to remove someone putting in the word "poop" or something, i'm cool with that, but don't try to squelch different viewpoints. That's what makes Wikipedia great.
--Karmafist 04:28, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
If we assign someone to "edit" and make submissions only possible after a review, maybe the vandalism will stop. It seems that people vandalize this page most often, and this seems like the logical solution to the problem. --68.161.103.108 22:59, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)