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Absolutely no mention of Dr. Timothy Leary? I was under the distinct impression that he founded the concept of Neuro-Linguistic Programming.
Not so far as I am aware. [1] (link added) FT2 11:13, Jul 27, 2004 (UTC)
Timothy Leary was involved in some work that Robert Dilts did for his reimprinting techniques.
See this article on Robert Dilt's site. [2]. Robert Dilts and Timothy Leary taught an NLP workshop together on "designing intelligence", which I have a copy of.
Someone continually edits this description to be distinctly anti-Richard Bandler. I think the description should be balanced. Certainly many trainers have their detractors, but there is more to NLP than Bandler's trial in the mid-70's, and his legal actions are only one small part of his involvement in NLP. The language continually is changed to be distinctly anti-Bandler, and this is a non-biased source, so let's keep to fairness between the NLP factions.
The entry as it currently stands (16/08/05) is balanced and undistracted by superfluous\biographical details.
There's no mention of Bandler's trial, former cocaine habit, his current obesity and his current denigration of NLP so the entry isn't biased against Bandler. In any event, such biographical detail should be confined to the 'Richard Bandler' entry.
A section should be added on the intellectual antecedents of NLP.
URLs for the abstracts of various research papers pertaining to NLP topics should be included. This is preferable to simply stating "research has shown..." or "research has failed to show...". The 'NLP Research Database' (http://www.nlp.de/cgi-bin/research/nlp-rdb.cgi) has many such abstracts though I'm not sure of its completeness.
I replaced the POV flag on the article as reading the history there have been a series of reversions (I count 13 in 3 days)in the last few days. These are a clear indication of (at least) two points of view about the page and its contents. My opinion fwiw is that the page should first and foremost present an overview of NLP as it is today including references to its history and the divergent streams and secondarily - but importantly should cover the criticisms and associations that many people feel about it. --GreyHead 08:12, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
On a side, can someone have a go at cleaning up the various "principles" section? The subsections probably overlap and could do with some review and neatening up. FT2 11:13, Jul 27, 2004 (UTC)
This article began using American rather than British spelling but is now a hodgepodge. I think it should be made consistent at the former; see discussion at Talk:Modelling (NLP). JamesMLane 22:39, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I agree with you. I've made the spelling consistent; as an added bonus, I've removed initial caps from the headings so as to comply with Wikipedia style. Someone else will have to handle the substantive review, though. JamesMLane 23:22, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Incidentally I've removed the sentence Asking "why?" when gathering information is an advanced technique, reserved for special situations.
It's not a 'principle' of NLP, nor strictly an accurate statement. The reason NLP discourages "why?" is pragmatic: it will get beliefs about the problem, rather than operational information about the problem. "Why" can often be a red herring because it gets information which is not as relevant to actually understanding or changing a problem, so much as justifications why the problem needs to be there.
Often the more useful questions are "how?" and "what?" - how is it a problem, how do you experience it, what would you prefer to have happen? which in general help move towards resolving a problem. FT2 07:17, Aug 10, 2004 (UTC)
I removed the dmoz link for the reasons listed at Wikipedia talk:External links/temp#Against. A search lists only about 1000 of the 430,000+ en.wikipedia articles having dmoz links to its 590,000+ categories, demonstrating that common practice does not currently support it. Zigger 14:30, 2004 Dec 26 (UTC)
I don't see a logic in "common practice does not currently support it". It not yet used widely. Conan 17:58, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The logic is simple: we all must begin at once. :)
There are some spammy external links about penis enlargement and the such (Note 1, Note 2, etc). Going to remove then (as i don't think NLP has something to do with these kind of things.
I noticed today quite a bit of external link spamming to NLP-related pages, all linking to nlpschedule.com. I tagged the links-only pages with speedy deletions, but do not have the subject matter knowledge to judge the usefulness of links on other pages. Would someone be willing to look through them and remove the ones that aren't useful or are otherwise inappropriate to Wikipedia? You can find the list of affected articles on Talk:NLP map. Also, they are on the talk pages for the posting anons: User talk:63.199.31.178 and User talk:69.109.178.79. Thanks! --JimCollaborator 21:52, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
I have to say I was extremely disappointed with this article. It is certainly substandard. That first sentence is terrible. It needs a big overhaul; I learnt more from a ten-line article in my dictionary of psychology than from this twaddle. ZephyrAnycon 23:34, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Apparently this page is being constantly bombarded by an NLP fanatic (username ChrisG?) who regards any revisions to his pro-NLP text as "vandalism". A reasonable compromise would for Chris to provide a SHORT version of his current text (which is already enormously over wikipedia's suggested length limit) while someone else provides another view - JC
Chris - the article limit may have first arisen because of browser limits: that does not mean that it is its only purpose. As for my supposedly not being able to delete the article and replace it within the proper length limits, which does not contain a single claim that isn't verifiable - balderdash. Of course I can. There's nothing to say that a huge mass of excuses and evasions can't be replaced with a short clear statement of fact. I repeat my proposal: you or someone else "pro" NLP should produce an article of a length that is within the usual wiki limits, which should be balanced by an opposing view
Brevity is the soul of wit, chaps! This article could really do with a bit more cutting. And there's presently more spam and hype than you would find on ten average NLP sites.
Yes, I see that it is completely overboard at the moment. The introduction seems to be ok at the moment, except that the epistemology should really be part of the methods section. As NLP does entail quite some controversial claims, it does seem appropriate to state the bounds of NLP as has been attempted already. Added to the list could also be claims to heal cancer, improve crystal healing, predict winning lottery numbers, increase the power of charms, in addition to the speed seduction claims already there. This could be done in note form in order to make unspamlike and informative. A clear summing up/future of nlp section would help begin the info reduction effort also. Regards D.Right 12:06, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Is there a reason the title isn't bold? I mean a subject such as this... you probably have other things to worry about.... N/M... I'll bold it for yas.
The Criticism section does not cover the criticisms made about NLP by the scientific community, instead what it is really covering is the criticisms leveled at one-another between different factions within the NLP community.
Specifically how about covering some of the following:
- Many of NLPs core methods have little scientific basis, and in some cases have been shown to be completely ineffective. For example Anchoring, Modelling behavior using "submodalities", and use of hypnosis. When the article states: "Find the client's internal representations and/or processes which drive the problem behavior. If you change the representations and/or the way they are processed, you will often change the behavior", what proof of this is there?
- There is no scientific proof that subtle internal emotional states are linked to some externally observable bodily cues -- whether it be breathing, posture, eye position or what ever.
- "Submodalities" and the whole notation that people are primarily "visual, kinesthetic, auditory, etc" is dubious. What proof exists that people's thought processes are linked to these bodily senses, as is claimed by NLP.
- There are no serious studies showing that anyone that has undergone NLP treatment has been helped with their depression, phobia, etc. If you claim there has been then please reference them!!
- The claim that NLP can't be submitted to rigorous scientific investigation is bunk; it's an excuse at best. If NLP produces results, then surely these results can be measured. It can be as simple as comparing 100 NLP treated patients against 100 non-NLP treated patients.
The section titled "NLP is not a science" is about as biased a section I have read in Wikipedia. Statements such as, "In sum, NLP promotes methods which are verifiable and have so far been found to be largely false, inaccurate or ineffective," demonstrate extreme POV and it needs to be cleaned up.--Agiantman 11:26, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
No problem Randal. Here is one for teasing starters: http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/06/30/landmark-forum-scientology/ And there is a seminal and review based academic source entitled: Mind Myths: Exploring Popular Assumptions About the Mind and Brain (Paperback) by Sergio Della Sala (Editor). I can paste a whole thesis about the inextricable historical, cultural, theoretical, and philosophical links between NLP, Scientology and new age notions on this discussion page if you like. Regards D.Right 15:57, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
But your source doesn't state any facts about NLP being directly influenced by Scientology or EST. That's not a source. Admittedly, I'm an insider here. I've worked with people directly trained by Grinder and Bandler, and studied the published work of early NLP. I also did a lot of Werner Erhard's programs during the mid-80's. I can say directly as an insider that there's no direct connection, other than the fact that a lot of people studied both. So, if you can find a real source that talks about how Grinder and Bandler deliberately took EST or Scientology into their work, I'll let the paragraph stand. Otherwise, it's POV. --Randal L. Schwartz 16:04, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Well, I am as sane as any researcher can be. If you look at the references presented, you will find that the documents they refer to state facts, as I have done. Let me remind you that this issue is about NLP, not me! D.Right 18:22, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Please don't put that Scientology nonsense in again without sourcing it. And it should be well regarded as fact if it is included in the introduction (i.e., actual cites to Bandler, Grinder, etc.)The idea that a technology that involves the processing and manipulation of natural language somehow relates to that Scientology alien nonsense is absurd. I am not sure if it is repeatedly added here to wrongfully give credit to Scientology for the discovery of NLP or to disparage NLP. Because NLP can be a very powerful manipulative tool, I can imagine a cult unethically abusing it to brainwash their followers. Maybe that's what your source says.--Agiantman 19:07, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
BTW - I regularly use NLP to pick up women and in the work environment (mirroring, creating positive states, anchoring, patterns, weasel words, etc.) and I know how scary effective it is. The suggestion by some here that it does not work conflicts with my own experience. Also, Tony Robbins' millions in repeat business are testament to its effectiveness.--Agiantman 19:07, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Turner, sounds like you spent money and decided that you didn't get value. Ya ought to go ask for a refund. Some other folks continue to spend their money because they get value. Some folks will abuse NLP, just like others will abuse powerful tools, like silicone implants or jack daniels. How about you share the story of what got your panties i a bunch, so we know where you are comming from. I've been doing transformational work for 8 years, and it makes a positive difference in my life that is imeasurable. Leave we be, as we are smart people that don't need your babysitting. Unreg: Jak P. Oakland, CA
Well Sorry, mate! My mistake, but you seem to be associating yourself with some very dubious types. What's more you seem to be associating yourself with the claims of charlatans. These people spread the proverbial bull like nobody else. From my own searches, I have discovered that not all is well with the founding fathers of NLP. They seem to be intent on shoveling some very iffy stuff my way, and you seem to be part of that shoveling. It is not a pleasant experience. A.Turner 18:38, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
Maybe we should move Pseudoscience discussion to this section? BTW: There is a nice summary of pseudoscience at http://www.psychologicalscience.org/observer/teachingtips.cfm My psychology teachers were reasonably good on this kind of thing, though they accidentally encouraged several practices during research that would lead to inaccurate data. GregA 13:27, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes, the cult association with NLP is undeniable. Whether it is because of any innate occult power, or it simply contains ingredients that cult leaders and followers find appealing, who knows? The fact is though it was derived from the success of previous cults and quasi-religions such as Scientology. I myself have no interest in Tom Cruise, or learning to pick up women using unethical covert methods, command hypnosis or whatever. My main interest here is to report the facts in an encyclopedic fashion. Perhaps you missed it, but I did quote a very solid source: Mind Myths: Exploring Popular Assumptions About the Mind and Brain, by Sergio Della Sala (Editor).
Here is an extract from one of the related peer reviewed journals: "Scientology and NLP are historically, psychologically and sociologically one in the same in that they: are based on hypnotism or command suggestion, they are generally thought to be religions or quasi-religious cults, they encourage dangerous dissociative delusions for “treatment”, they claim to make use of covert suggestion, they derive their beliefs from new age notions of superhuman potential and reincarnation, they infer the same lists of claimed benefits, they use hypnotic regression and past life regression, they refer to pseudo scientific principles (often long since debunked by science), they actively encourage occult notions of black magic through anecdotes by their founding authority figures, they both make liberal use of outlandish stories for indoctrination, and they suggest that people require re-programmed through clearing processes, they both use the 90% or 99% mind potential myth, and they both pay homage to misleading left/right brain myths". I will consolidate and integrate these facts with the article. D.Right 07:01, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
The thought of some greasy talking Tony Robbins wannabe drooling NLP pick up lines to the women I know just makes me laugh. I'm sure the world laughs with me. Truly, you should dispense with the wikispam. This is not the place for Ross Jeffries psychic pickups or remote kahuna black magic NLP. Here is at least one simple link you could follow that shows people do consider NLP to be programming, or mind programming, or command hypnosis.
http://psychicinvestigator.com/demo/Cults.htm
NLP has its gurus, as is evident by what you have admitted. NLP originated as a new age based pseudoscientific (not real psychology) large group awareness sessions, just like EST, and uses hypnotic language, and pretend science just like Scientology. It pretends to be scientific, but has yet to show positive overall results. That is fact. D.Right 14:12, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
According to the very structure of their writing, NLP is a new age concept. Scientology was not the inspiration for NLP though. However, it was a strong influence. Wikipedia requires a certain amount of association with related subjects. New age thinking and Scientology are valid in this respect. DoctorDog 15:51, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
I did not associate new age with ultimate power within, magic psychic NLP seduction, although, now you mention it! And new age roots originated way before the turn of the 20th century, according to most historians. They stem from early religions and cults of pre-Christian era, and involve philosophies that include re-incarnation, subjective knowledge etc. So new age is the umbrella for Scientology hypnotic mental programming and NLP hypnotic mental programming. When you desperately try to wang a weasle phrase on your unatainable wet dream, you are not exhibiting a solid knowledge of psychology, but rather a strong association with the occult. DoctorDog 21:19, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
What is wrong with cults? Some of them are positive! I will reiterate what the other chap posted because this statement says a great deal: "Scientology and NLP are historically, psychologically and sociologically one in the same in that they: are based on hypnotism or command suggestion, they are generally thought to be religions or quasi-religious cults, they encourage dangerous dissociative delusions for “treatment”, they claim to make use of covert suggestion, they derive their beliefs from new age notions of superhuman potential and reincarnation, they infer the same lists of claimed benefits, they use hypnotic regression and past life regression, they refer to pseudoscientific principles (often long since debunked by science), they actively encourage occult notions of black magic through anecdotes by their founding authority figures, they both make liberal use of outlandish stories for indoctrination, and they suggest that people require re-programmed through clearing processes, they both use the 90% or 99% mind potential myth, and they both pay homage to misleading left/right brain myths". Sala's book is good and points the way to other similar sources. I believe common knowledge is that NLP, scientology, EFT, etc are all part of the same new age set of notions. The statement above actually comes from a very good source. If you patiently took your time to search for it, without demanding source upon source, then perhaps you would gain some kind of consensus. Till then! DoctorDog 21:05, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
Hi NLP loverboys. I have the source! I have also looked around for validation for NLP's unique claims for many years without ever coming across any truth in those claims. I have come across many very obvious associations between NLP and other cults. I am also not very happy with your abusive guru worshiping tone. So if you really want the actual source, ISBN code, page numbers, author, associated references, publication and year, -- go fetch!Authopten 22:20, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
Now you are just being silly! NLP is considered a new age notion, and Bandler is considered a new age guru with a cult following according to many sources including these---The Bandler Method Clancy, Frank, Yorkshire, Heidi. Mother Jones. San Francisco: Feb 1989. Vol. 14. The Times. London (UK): Sep 5, 2001. pg. Creme.4. Scientology case settled out of court; [CITY EDITION] MARY CAROLAN. Irish Times. Dublin: Mar 14, 2003. pg. 4 Self-directed change in a well-balanced way; [Management Times Edition] Goh Chooi Chin. New Straits Times. Kuala Lumpur: Feb 27, 1996. pg. 11 "Money is just spiritual energy": Incorporating the new age Lisa Aldred. Journal of Popular Culture. Bowling Green: Spring 2002. Vol. 35, I'm sure nobody is saying it is an evil or satanic cult. Regards JuneD 00:17, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
Yes, these are some quick searches that anyone can do on the web using goggle. Simply type in the related keywords and you will come up with facts about NLP gurus such as Bandler and Robbins being NEW AGE and SCIENTOLOGY involving MIND CONTROL etc. The Bandler article is particularly interesting though. Lots of unethical persuasion going on there including claiming to be a Doctor, with no PhD. I like this extra one by Dave Barry http://www.lynxfeather.net/nest/humor/2002/alteredstates.html These were simply to induce you to look up the rest of the close associations between NLP Scientology and other new age movements. There are many, in many languages. Regards JuneD 06:03, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
The difference between qualified NLP practitioners and unqualified NLP practitioners is currently not represented in this article. Some countries recognise NLP as a legitimate form of psychotherapy. For example, European Association for Neuro-Linguistic Psychotherapy [6]. Also, in Australia there is a government recognised qualification in NLP. [7]
As I've studied Psych (only 3 years) and NLP this area interests me. There are certainly criticisms of NLP by psychologists, I'm just not sure how they relate to some of what's here. For instance:
"NLP is criticized for its lack of a unified personality theory and thus does not adequately explain how people come to think or behave." Have we got some sort of evidence that Psychologists think NLP should have a unified personality theory, or even what interest they have in saying what NLP should have?
" The NLP allusion to "what works" and delay in explaining "why it works" until after the event is generally viewed by scientists as unconvincing. Ethical standards bodies require that the client should have an explanation for why something works for it to be acceptable as a treatment." Is it scientists or ethical standards bodies that are unconvinced - any links? Scientists or psychologists?
".... NLP will continue to be viewed as a pseudoscience." Rather than presupposing this, we probably could open the whole NLP and Psychology page saying that NLP is viewed by Psychologists as a pseudoscience.
" ...NLP began ... in the human potential movement" - is this an assumption from the psych paper or from an NLP source?
Any thoughts on this area? GregA 08:21, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Thanks GregA. Yes I've been meaning to clear these up. Looks like we may have a chance at last:) I can provide references for the belief in the lack of theory. Ethical standards really are more of an issue towards psychologists and psychotherapists. We can work towards clearing this also. refs are available to search for on the web on psychology and codes of conduct. Your point about pseudoscience is about to change the page for the better I believe. Several cooperative editors have mentioned this, and the NPOV agrees with the point. Refs can be provided to support the assertion that scientists generally believe NLP is pseudoscientific. From that point, the article can be prioritised properly. The human potential movement part is related to its beginnings with Perls, Satir, Dianetics, Esalen institute etc. Bandler and Grinder began NLP with these factors. I believe the source is more to historical associations, but the science relates also in terms of those people having the same scientific and pseudoscientific assumptions. Given time to dig the refs up this can probably even be brevified to a degree. Thanks much regards HeadleyDown 12:09, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Sure, GregA. That's why it has been classified as such. Clarity is important here. Here are just a few other characteristics of a pseudoscience that have already been expressed in the article: Absence of connectivity;Use of obscurantist language.;Overreliance on testimonial and anecdotal evidence.;Absence of boundary conditions.;The mantra of holism.;An overuse of ad hoc hypotheses designed to immunize claims from falsification.;Evasion of peer review.;Reversed burden of proof.;Emphasis on confirmation rather refutation. And then we have stated opinions of specific scientists. Regards HeadleyDown 11:28, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Hi again Greg A and all. Actually, there is enough information in the page already to be able to class NLP as pseudoscientific. Eg: (Bleimeister, 1988) (Morgan, 1993) (Platt, 2001). They all state that the hypotheses, assertions, patterns or observations of NLP do not hold true at all. NLP promoters continue to claim that they do hold, so they are in actual fact pseudoscientific. There are other pseudoscientific characteristics though. Such as hyped endorsements, the use of anecdotes and testimonials for support only, and the use of strange buzzwords and odd out of context terminology. Regards HeadleyDown 17:05, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Hi. I've made an alteration to this on the main page. Mainly it's just a restructure of what was already there, though I've also made sure I write things like "Psychologists consider it a pseudo-science" rather than "it is a pseudo-science" (as described in the Wiki NPOV instructions!).Give it a read. It doesn't quite make it yet as it is, so hopefully you or others will have some good stuff to add. I have taken out the "NLP began in human potential movement" mainly because the criticisms I've heard (unfortunately not read so no cite!) were more about what NLP says and not growing out of psychology, than where NLP grew from. What do you think?
Could you say which psychologists consider NLP a pseudoscience? I have examined the research database link in detail, and it is quite clear that one can selectively pick and choose studies to support a particular POV. I am a neutral regarding NLP, however it seems to me that an equivalent statement "psychologists practice and support NLP" could be made if I pick and choose my sources. As the statement is only accurate when applied to a subset of the category 'psychologists', it should be specified what that subset is
Hi GregA. I believe that would be an impossible task to identify a particular subset as the works that I have read come from a wide selection of psychology and other scientists. Also, NLP is listed in the Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience, and there are so many editors there that it probably constitutes the opinion of the whole of psychology, neurology, linguistics etc. The refs that are here now are quite representative. CarlOxford 09:30, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Looks great to me, GregA. Cheers HeadleyDown 07:52, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm glad you've done something regarding epistemology!... and I think we need more. I almost feel like we lose the force of the criticism unless we're clear on what the NLP hypotheses, conjectures, and epistemology are.. but I'll have to think about that (maybe that's somewhere else in the page that I've missed :). I'm also wondering about the significance of "continue to" - I'm not sure of the history there - are you saying we need to add something about psychologists requesting NLP promoters to stop calling NLP a science, but they're still doing it? GregA 07:57, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
I am not sure if the "new age" label that JuneD and fellow sockpuppets attribute to NLP really matters. "New age" to me conjures up images of Yanni music and yoga, not NLP. I doubt John Tesh and Ross Jeffries have much in common. I guess "new age" has some negative connotations in the right-wing Christian community, but to most people, "new age" things just seem liberal, a little out of touch, and otherwise harmless.--Agiantman 11:41, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
The attempt to associate Scientology to NLP is more troubling, suggesting that anyone who learns about NLP is really getting involved in a cult. Again, NLP is a set of psychological and linguistic tools that can be used to manipulate others by understanding how people process natural language. NLP is not a cult. There is no organization, no leader, and nothing to buy. Are there articles on the Internet about Scientology and NLP? Sure. Why? Because cults are effective at mind control and NLP tools can be used to manipulate people's minds. Does or did Scientology, the Moonies, EST, Heaven's Gate, David Koresh, Jim Jones, etc. use NLP? I bet they have and do, but so does the US Army, therapists, car salesmen, pick-up artists, and motivational speakers. Just because a cult may use NLP tools to indoctrinate people in their cult, does not mean the cult created or has any impact on NLP. I assure you that a cult will not teach what NLP is to their followers, or else their devotees would realize that they are being manipulated the same day and walk out. If Tom Cruise learned about NLP, he would be telling us how he had been fooled, that he could now see through all of Scientology's tactics and the Scientology teachings are full of wacky alien nonsense.--Agiantman 11:41, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
Also, it is very clear from these adverts that Ross Jeffries is even more new age than John Tesh: http://www.seduction.com/products/RJ170.asp. Here he is advertising magick products, involving new age concepts of psychic influence, etc. As you say, this kind of thing looks a little out of touch. Harmless is probably right, although there are some ethical problems that may need ironing out.
Hi Agiantman. You are deleting facts that have already been sourced (eg psychic ability and NLP, new age connections with NLP, etc) on the article page, and this one. I quite understand your desperate chagrin at the facts being unsupportive to your Ross Jeffries NLP magick Kahuna devotion. And a tidied or re-arranged paragraph does not need sources for it to be valid. I added the source in the link section that actually treats the NLP Scientology connection very mildly. I do, on the other hand, have other sources from published cult recovery manuals that will be very good at highlighting NLP's unethical and cultlike nature and use, and its close relations with Scientology, Dianetics, EST, Aum, Branch Davidians etc.... D.Right 03:07, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I think we can work this out. That link to Jeffries' Secrets Of "Kick-Butt" Magick and Psychic…Influence[8] was funny but i think it proved your point. So i thing some references to new age and even psychic nonsense is fine. i also don't disagree that NLP is used by Scientology, Dianetics, EST, Aum, Branch Davidians because I don't know what other mind manipulation techniques they would use. But cults don't teach NLP, they use it against their victims. One thing I don't understand is the recurring statements in the article that NLP is somehow ineffective. If all of these cults are using it, and they seem to be developing slavish devotees, how can you or anyone else argue it ineffective? (And what about all the women I pick up?) You cant have it both ways: either it is ineffective or its very effective and abused by cults. I think Tom Cruise is the posterboy for the effectiveness of NLP's techniques.--Agiantman 12:46, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Hello once again. Your view of NLP has been represented. But there are NLP organisations that use covert and unethical recruitment and manipulation techniques. There are books, tapes, seminars etc that they want to sell, and people buy them. And they desperately want repeat buyers (devotees). Some views say that cults and NLP developers saw the coercion technologies of various earlier cults such as Dianetics and EST, and said "That makes money for them! It will work for us!" It is definitely another view, and the unethical issues are clear. D.Right 04:28, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Hello RandalSchwartz. If you have a reference to connect the roots and background principles of IBM and NLP, then please supply them. Otherwise, revert the properly researched and referenced Scientology, new age, and NLP information that was there before. Alternatively, like the persistent wikipedian that I am, I will do it for the sake of the article. Nobody is saying that any of these things are evil. D.Right 09:54, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
OK good. A reference is not an hallucination. When we talk of NLP it would be well to place it in an historical context. If we have nothing to compare it with, then it is just floating on its own. Historically, it was part of a trend in new age thinking that was spurred by writers such as the general semantics chap and some science fiction writers (who also raved about Scientology). The original book came out around the time Bandler was certified as a shaman and a self help guru. The whole trend surfaced due to the new age and the increased financial success of Scientology. All of these groups have the same fundamental philosophy. That bad stuff gets programmed and you need to reprogram it. If you get bogged down in the hype and pseudoscientific pretend terminology of NLP you will end up more blinkered than Tom Cruise. NLP claims to be a technology or science of achievement, and uses hypnosis. Dianetics claims to be a technology or science of achievement and uses hypnosis. You will find them rubbing shoulders in all the bookshops. They are also very historically connected. I can post yet another real book reference from another professionally affiliated Phd holder if you need that reassurance? I have started to make the article more historical just to soften it up for NLP devotees such as yourself. I wouldn't want to brutally smash your delusions of santa Bandler and the evil witch Hubbard, after all. But one thing remains. NLP has become a big mishmash of new age notions. Do any search on any search engine and that is what you will see. Flakesville! It is a product of 20th century history. D.Right 16:30, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
To give an example of the techniques of NLP being used AND proven for all to see, a recent TV program in the United Kingdom by a well-known hypnotist, Paul McKenna was aired for a number of weeks whereby he took NLP techniques (anchoring, state changes etc) to positively influence people with phobias, disease and other difficulties. I cannot put them all here, but they are available for those doubting the integrity of NLP practice or the effectiveness of said techniques. I'm sure there's something online about the program on Sky 1 by Paul McKenna. Happy hunting. [User:D.Stevens]
D.Right, please tell me where I can become a "certified shaman." That sounds interesting. Thanks.--Agiantman 01:57, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Hi Agi antman. Here is a link for you to follow http://www.nlpiash.org/98WHpresentations.htm Have fun! D.Right 06:17, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Hello D.Stevens. Paul Mckenna wrote a book called The Paranormal World of Paul McKenna. He also does some exorcism "acts". Do I need to say more? I think it was him or someone equally balding who hypnotized someone's headaches away for them (this is medically possible). Unfortunately, they had a brain tumour and by the time the headaches came back it was too late to treat conventionally (RIP). Nice one, lovely fluffy ethically responsible sciencephobic NLPee-ers. D.Right 06:17, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Hi RandalSchwartz. Here is yet another link that places NLP well and truly in the new age. http://www.lifepositive.com/Mind/psychology/stress/stress-reduction.asp It even gives an explanation of NLP that is an exact facsimile of an explanation for dianetics "the technology of achievement". D.Right 06:42, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Hi RandalSchwartz. Here is a link to new age concepts and roots New Age. It strongly correlates to NLP chronologically, and in how NLP has developed. People are seeking methods of change which traditional Christianity doesn't seem to have. Dianetics promises the same sorts of methods. They are both about altered states of consciousness (which may not even exist) for the purpose of self improvement. Lets just say, when you are looking for something to help people place NLP in their mental framework, psychology, linguistics, philosophy etc really do not come close. But dianetics especially, and Scientology are the closest entities to NLP. They are not only close, they overlap almost to their entirety. I can see why some people would want to distance their NLP hobby from dianetics, but people pick up these subjects for the same reasons. They want to have a prescription for life, to evolve themselves, to grasp the vagueries of life, and to gain more personal power for communicating, business, healing etc. I have done quite some study on new age ideals and LGATs etc, and NLP really is just a new improved and more popular version of dianetics, with more pseudoscience and magick baloney tacked on. D.Right 10:38, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
D.Right, The classification of NLP or it's actives as a cult, cult-like or "New Age" is almost meaningless. The definitions of "cult" or "New age" are so broad as to include anything outside of Orthodoxy. I have personally trained with many people from many different religions, including a Catholic minister who wanted to improve his presentation and counseling skills. I know of two Islamic followers who also have trained in NLP, one of them had a Ph.D in linguistics and completed NLP trainers training now teaches Islamic studies at an Australian university. The point I want to make is that NLP in respect to religion is ethically neutral.
D.Right, Please explain your logic in assigning Dianetics to the same class as Neuro-Linguistic Programming. In response to your first point about "consciousness", in NLP, consciousness (or conscious attention) is defined as what we are attending to at any one time, ie. what we can see, hear, feel, taste, smell. Unconscious attention is defined as everything else that is contained within our neurology. There is nothing mystical in either definition.
D.Right, I like how you used the term NLP Hobby. NLP Hobbyists, those who claim to be trained in NLP but have no real qualifications are problematic. -Comaze
Links to Neuro-Linguistic Programming from the Scientology and Dianetics and engrams articles have been thrown out. See Talk:Scientology. --Comaze 05:11, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Also, the term Scientology term engram is not used in NLP. HeadleyDown references "Structure of Magic Vol.2". HeadleyDown may be confusing this with the Satir categories, Placator, Blamer, Computer, Distractor (terms borrowed from Enneagrams - a personality typing system). It is important to note that these categories are not longer taught in strict NLP training. Apply the quick and dirty Google test...
See Also, "The Enneagram and NLP: A Journey of Evolution. Anne Linden, Murray Spalding (1994) --Comaze 05:46, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
I can answer this easily myself as a scientist. Engram is a psychological term to describe a part of a history or memory trace of episodic memory. It is commonly used in NLP by Bandler, Dilts, Grinder et al and was also used by Perls and Virginia Satir. It is used widely in NLP literature. Do not rely on google. The NLP that is promoted there is just that: Promotional. EBlack 11:48, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
I have failed to find any reference to "engram" by Bandler, Dilts, Grinder et al in NLP literature. What are your sources (with page numbers)?
--Comaze 00:57, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
EBlack says, "Do not rely on google. The NLP that is promoted there is just that: Promotional."
--Comaze 03:32, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Comaze. Your research is irellevant. Do a search of Engrams and psychology. Also, look at these pages:
http://www.nlptrainings.com/humanistic.html\ http://www.conts.com/learn.html http://www.online-hypnosis.org/encyclopedia/definition.asp?word=Engram&theme=General&letter=E
I understand that NLP writers often do not use an index in their book, but keep on searching through the text and you will find copious use of the term "engram" in the text. Also, an introductory paragraph should have something recognisable in the text. Engrams is linked to the wiki article on engrams and that gives a clear idea of what it is about. Whats more, consensus is towards this point. More links and book references can be added to the engram link in due course. Have faith in wikiprocess, and be patient. HeadleyDown 04:38, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
I am still not convinced. I still have not found any reference to "engram" by any of the NLP developers (Bandler, Grinder, Delozier, Dilts, ...). And your third link says, "There is no current research based evidence for the physical existence of engrams."[10] I am not convinced of any relevance of engram to NLP. Do you have any other references (with page numbers)? --Comaze 05:26, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
If you want engram stuff to stay, you will need to provide a reference (and page number), otherwise this will be removed. Lashley, the guy who came up with the term engram, was not able to find one. Rather he found "that all cortical areas can substitute for each other as far as learning is concerned." Arun Jagota, 1988 ([Lashley's Search for the Engram http://neuron-ai.tuke.sk/NCS/VOL1/P3_html/node13.html]) --Comaze 01:55, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Comaze. Engram is a largely debunked concept. NLP theorists use it, and engram describes exactly what they are doing, and their assumptions. It is recognised by psychology and is a very useful descriptive link. And yes, I can provide evidence. It will come in time. JPLogan 02:39, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Hi JPLogan. Psychology once used the term Engram didn't it? Are you aware when it fell from usage in Psychological fields? GregA 05:36, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
One editor here so desperately wants others to believe NLP is a "cult" (LOL), he makes up nonsense about the need to be "cleared" (obviously a Scientology reference) and the need to be reprogrammed. Anyone who knows about NLP knows you don't need to be reprogrammed to use NLP techniques or be "cleared," whatever that means. I will continue to revert that nonsense until he provides a legitimate source.--Agiantman 03:40, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Well I'm not sure about your feeling but I am enjoying this. I have learned a huge amount about NLP. I even went to a lecture about it at a university. Reprogramming is a common word in NLP manuals. Here is a foolproof pointer for you just for starters [11]. I believe the word programming may also be relevant to NLP, somewhere. Perhaps you could point out where it fits into NLP! I took the clearing phrase away though. I guess it was a remnant that you have only just noticed. I will replace it when I find an NLP manual that talks of clearing. Anyway, the reference is in place now. I hope you find it reassuring! If not, I have a lot of other references to go in its place. They will be a lot more incriminating though. D.Right 04:30, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Well it didn't take long. NLP uses clearing techniques, refers to them as clearing techniques, and sells products that promote the clearing of traumas. So I agree with you that NLP clearing and reprogramming techniques are probably nonsense. Thanks much for the encouragement! D.Right 05:36, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Well from what I can see, most people who are interested actually get into NLP to learn the technology of excellence and overcome insecurities. They tend to be insecure people, and people who are fooled easily. D.Right 15:32, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Fooled easily? I think people who buy Tony Robbins tapes are just normal everyday people into self-improvement. I was just looking to get an edge on the competition. Don't you think NLP works? If NLP doesn't work, how am I now able to get great looking ladies into the sack? How do those cults turn people into slavish knuckleheads? You can download Ross Jeffries mp3's from limewire, etc. I wish you would give it a shot. --Agiantman 17:53, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
We are not talking about a field that lends itself as easily to the scientific measurement POV as say, physics or chemistry or engineering would. Nevertheless, I'm sure many, many people will vouch that NLP techniques of one kind or another (since there are many - and they have evolved from the original work of Bandler and Grinder) are very useful to help them achieve their goals. From salespeople, to motivational speakers, to substance abuse counselors, and yes, even apparently for men wishing to improve the quality of their relationship with women, there are untold numbers who can vouch for the effectiveness and validity of NLP. NLP basically makes you aware that we communicate on several more levels than the merely verbal, and that if you wish to convey a powerful and congruent message that reaches your audience, and realizes the outcome you wish from the communication, it is wise to learn all these levels, or modes of communication. Intersofia 02:46, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Thank you Intersofia. Yes, there are testimonials and anecdotes all over the web. But the actual research that has been conducted indicates that it does not work in general. I have the source references for evidence. I also know NLP instructors who will say the same thing. They generally do not let science bother them though, and continue to do what they think is beneficial. But for an encyclopedia, the scientific and historical views must be taken into account. Your view is also valid though. Regards EBlack 04:53, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Comaze. You are not in a position to preach. You are in a position to get on your knees and beg for forgiveness for your rotten behaviour last week and the last few days. EBlack 01:22, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
EBlack, Personal attacks have absolutely no significance in this argument. Please research before reverting editors' contributions, and keep argument to facts only. --Comaze 01:47, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure how to go about this. Obviously NLP is trained and approached in different ways by different groups that have branched off, and it would be useful to express that in some way. Should there be a separate section? Should it be integrated with various concepts?
For now, I'm working on some changes to "ecology", and splitting the "mind/body/spiritual" into "mind/body", and "spiritual". I'm also adding something very brief on trainings. I hope it's useful as a start, but I'm very aware that this is not the final way to do it! GregA 00:43, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Hello GregA. I understand you want to show differences and inconsistencies within and between different schools of NLP and that is great. But please do not remove any stated or quoted facts. It is important to allow all points of view to be heard. Regards JPLogan 02:51, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Hi JP! I guess you reverted what I wrote? Could you tell me what you though I removed, and I'll rewrite it to keep that in. Ahh... I see I lost the (Lilienfeld et al 1993) comment! Damn. For the moment I'm more concerned with clearing things up a little but keeping the information intact so we can keep consensus! Is that the only missing info? If so I'll fix it up. Thanks :-) GregA 05:36, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm waiting to resubmit for 24hrs. JPLogan - please let me know if it's just the Lilienfeld thing you say I removed.
On a related note - currently the mind/body/spirit section says: Dilts (1992) states that humans communicate by taking in information through the senses. It is also hypothesised that humans give out communication as a kind of energy, and this can be considered the spiritual side of communication. This kind of energy is considered in various ways. It can be considered metaphorically in terms of the communication sender and recipient's mutual intention to spend energy on sending/receiving, and it can be considered in the sense of a "thought field" similar to that proposed in energy psychology (Gallo 2002).
Dilts and Gallo are reference at both ends. Does anyone know if the information in the middle come from either of them? It seems to imply Gallo, not Dilts, though it's unclear. Note that Gallo is a clinical psychologist who now teaches energy psychology and has taught NLP. His views may not be representative of clinical psychology or NLP. GregA 23:41, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Altering quotes from academic sources to suit the NLP promotion is not persuasive at all. It is called misrepresentation. Why not evangelise the NLP promotion section instead? After all, there seems to be enough hype in the NLP literature to blast Scientology off the stage anyday!D.Right 16:28, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
What misrepresented quotes, specifically? I agree that there is alot of hype in some trainers purporting to use NLP. Find some references and put it in the criticism section, under quality of trainers.
Some NLP trainers / practitioners claim to have a Ph.D or degree from American Pacific University a non-accredited university [12].
For years I have wondered what it is exactly that practitioners of neuro-linguistic programming do. I have searched various sites on the net but most of them want money before they show you anything they really do. Could someone show me at least one common example of an NLP "tool"?
I reverted the article back to the prior information rich version, because a lot of recent changes look suspiciously like someone is trying to turn a criticism section into a promotion section. Here are some specific points: Psychologist's ethical standards including openness and explication of method, writing that a statement is an "accusation" is pov, removing brief examples will reduce the clarity of the piece, and NLP, Dianetics, etc are not just marketed as tech - but the argument appears throughout the whole texts. Now perhaps you would like to discuss these? Keeping it real Thaumaturge 04:34, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
When you made the reversion you added this paragraph full of POV, "The ever changing and uncertain nature of NLP’s concepts and theory, and the negative results of rigorous research, have led to distrust by conventional fields and the close association with snakeoil. Nevertheless, the use of pseudoscience and anecdotal promotion allows it to operate on a commercial scale with a disregard for objective proof of its efficacy, and the “flavour of the month” trends and fads occurring within the NLP concern suggest that NLP will continue to be directed at customers or anyone willing to believe the buzzwords and claims."
POV constantly being added include, "Ever changing concepts": Which concepts are everchanging you referring to and who opinion is that? When in fact, the NLP modeling methodology has not changed since its inception in 1970s. (see eg. Pattern I, Grinder & Bandler, 1975 and Whispering, Grinder & Bostic 2001).
My intention is to follow the NPOV guidelines. For example, I removed "NLP is strongly associated with modern day cults [13](Langone 1993)" and replaced it with, "Gary Tippet of Sunday Age, Australia found that some cults use NLP and hypnotic techniques that, 'manipulates people through subtle language tricks, subliminal messages and body language tricks'[14]." A direct quote, and only text about NLP in that entire document.
Another unfair POV is continually added citing The Skeptics Dictionary as a source, (not a primary source) "However, NLP’s lack of methodology and current (lack of) scientific research effort and results suggests that this attempt at association with science is highly dubious. To date, NLP advocates and other such interested parties have been unconvincing in their efforts to associate NLP with neuroscience [15]." What if we preface it with skeptics say that... --211.30.48.164 09:34, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
I am not convinced that NLP can be classified as LGAT. NLP is taught is many different formats. From outdoor "leadership" style courses, small groups to large groups, informal practice groups, one-on-one sessions, apprenticeships, as well as Anthony Robbins style seminars with thousands of participants. Some certifications are attendance based, others have competency assessment. The length of training ranges from hours for an introductory session to 40 days postgraduate study. Classification of all NLP training as LGAT is not accurate. --Comaze 22:31, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Hi all
I added my bit about History of NLP. This is taken from many books, including Andreas and Faulkner's NLP books, and my own experiences in the NLP field. Cheers HeadleyDown 12:23, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
May I suggest that we should keep only basic factual information in the main article and move all the critique (for and against) to the discussion page for the time being till we reach a consensus. The article is a bit too long and is quite difficult to read. I think "Human Potential Movement" is a more neutral and precise term than "New Age".
Suggested Structure
--RichardCLeen 15:35, 18 August 2005 (UTC) (cleaned up above into point form GregA)
I've been looking at every subheading currently on the main page - and just thinking about how those could be restructured to be more readable. Please note that to start with that means NOT CHANGING the content of any subsection. I'd suggest something like:
That's my first draft, and at a high level. And so far it's only one guys opinion. This is not something to be done lightly so this discussion will stay around for a while for some good input. It would require consensus and for that reason I'm proposing just a layout change (no change to CONTENT just structure) with the exception of a couple of headings. I've expanded the subheadings below to make it more obvious.GregA 01:16, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Below I've expanded to show subheadings:
What do you think? Alternative options? etc :) GregA 01:16, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
From my experience, it was. I have evidence to show that Frogs into Princes was a tidied transcription.HeadleyDown 03:41, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
I was being congruent with what is written on the page header of the article. Korzybski is quoted as the earliest background origin to NLP. Its undeniable. HeadleyDown 03:41, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
You cannot talk about the human potential industry without talking about new age influences. Objectivity and science are what separates the two. My evidence is the knowledge about general semantics and Aristotelian thought. Read the books! What you are saying is NLP is science. It is not! HeadleyDown 03:41, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Acceptability is not the issue. The issue is, does wikipedia cater for those wishing to whitewash the subject. I don't think it does! New age and the HPM and Personal Development, and Self Help, and Inspirational section, are all fact. Listen, I teach NLP, and I don't appreciate the hype and nonsense people use from the marketing bunk. It really detracts from what we are trying to do. NLP has had certain influences, and it is also an improvement on some of those influences. I will make the adjustment in the history section. HeadleyDown 03:41, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Reference to New Age or Psychic is not appropriate in this article on NLP. NLP has been defined strictly by John Grinder and Carmen Bostic St Clair in Whispering in the Wind (2001). It is definitely not New Age, or psychic, or related to Scientology as one person keeps try to add to the article. Let's keep this article about facts only. Grinder says, in Turtles (1986) that NLP was designed as an epistemology from the beginning. Grinder and Bostic's (2001) description of the coding of NLP is congruent with that found in Structure of Magic Vol.1 (Bander & Grinder, 1975). The personal beliefs of Grinder or Bandler, or even the personal beliefs of people who use NLP or claim to use NLP, are not of the concern of NLP or this article. That is a matter of personal style and is outside the realm of NLP.
Hello Comaze You are clearly in denial. It is unhelpful. Your goal is to be strict. Wikipedia is not strict, it is neutral. New age is part of the references as is potential and re-programming and engrams and traumas. The term appears many times. It is in academic references, promotional references, historical references amongst others. You seem to be working with a limited outlook and limited references. Grinder is only one author. I want to be truthful and encyclopedic about NLP. Stop judging, and stop denying. The sources are everywhere! The truth will HELP NLP. HeadleyDown 14:39, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Hi Comaze. Primary sources and resources would be books written by the developers of NLP, and transcripts or recordings from the seminars. Most of the primary sources I have talk of clearing traumas. One example would be the Andreas ref on the article. It is not specific to dianetics or NLP. It is also used in psychology and psychotherapy. It is a very useful and humane application of NLP. So please do not jump to conclusions. I am being non judgmental. Simply stating facts. HeadleyDown 04:52, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Hello Comaze. There is the history of NLP in the book in the references section of Andreas. You can find it from the contents section. Andreas is an NLP developer and has been since the mid 70s. He has since improved his view in seminars to include the history to dianetics. Grinder tends to try to appeal more to a business audience, and so will tend to use their frames of reference. However, the soul of NLP notions are easy to see in his explanations of pacing and leading (fairly mystical) and goal orientation (visions and spiritual purpose in life). These are non psychological and very spiritual. Dianetics is simply a historical milestone on the way to realizing NLP. General semantics was the earliest break away from rigor of science, and opened the book to programming. Dianetics use this idea and did it successfully both in terms of treating trauma after the world wars, and also financially successfully in terms of turning people to the idea that they could do something for themselves. NLP made improvements upon these notions especially in improving the hypnotic aspects, and is similarly successful. I do not disparage NLP, but I do disparage of people who want to narrow NLP into a tiny limiting box. NLP is connected to lots of things in a non-judgmental way and will continue in that spirit. If you want to empower your NLP further I suggest you embrace the spiritual aspects of communication. HeadleyDown 04:36, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Listen Comaze and Agiantman. If you are ashamed about being thought of as neo-scientologists I fully understand. I have removed the Scientology specifics just so you don't go deleting the actual timeline of NLP background and history. It is what it is. I am neutral here, but I have followed up on HeadleyDown's references and they actually treat the dianetics association very mildly. Both Scientology and dianetics were historically and anthropologically extremely tied in with NLP development. Of course, the NLP developers are definitely going to try to distance themselves from dianetics and Scientology, but the 20th century new age trend is absolutely undeniable. I am certain the specifics will reappear when you pull you fingers out and start to research the actual roots of your beliefs in NLP outside of the hype-ridden and salesy NLP bibles you have been evangelizing. EBlack 07:05, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
I said that you are thought of as a neo-scientologist; By historians and anthropologists.EBlack 07:55, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
I understand exactly what people are saying. They are parroting NLP promotional manuals. The human potential movement was specific to only some parts of NLP and the 60s onwards. The new age association links with programming, hypnotic NLP, and general semantics, which goes earlier. Your point about extension to pre-socratic times is valid. I can generate a term that includes new age with the older pagan philosophes. EBlack 07:55, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Yes DRight, you are correct, some of the NLP advocates here do stupid things like; revert properly referenced and well researched passages and THEN demand a discussion, which is opposite to NPOV guidelines, and they also revert properly referenced passages which have had "offensive" facts removed. They are not helpful at all and they stupidly shoot themselves and me in the foot. I am going to make a constructive suggestion, and as per NPOV guidelines, and the latest well researched facts will stay unless someone can provide proof and consensus for any deleting action. HeadleyDown 15:45, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
I think it might be useful to have 2 pages for NLP, both linking each other, one against NLP and one for NLP. This will allow users to look at both sides of the argument. I dont think NPOV is helpful in this case. --RichardCLeen 15:57, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
I can provide these refs myself HeadleyDown 02:44, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Neuroscientists do not do NLP, and they do not recognize eye accessing cues etc I will provide evidenceHeadleyDown
This is very true. You could provide this yourself. Just do a web search. If not I will help out here also.HeadleyDown 02:44, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
We do not need to know the details, just the fact that they do use it to sell these products. You seem to be having a tantrum! HeadleyDown 02:44, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Concepts and theory can be changed to buzzwords and associated claims HeadleyDown 02:44, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Its in the main body of the criticismsHeadleyDown 02:44, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Look at the definition of pseudoscienceHeadleyDown 02:44, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
If you require sources with page numbers then all of the NLP explanation sections will require the same. Anybody would be able to remove it while you hunt page numbers etc. You are being very destructive and acting against wikipedia process. If you want to remove POV, then do it without the mass bombing effort. When people take time to add sentences to paragraphs that are backed up with references and scientific research you can question those particular parts and look for consensus to change them or improve them to NPOV. Otherwise it is simple. If you mass delete, you will simply get a mass reversion. So if you demand all of the references to each statement on the criticism section, you must reference all of the prior NLP explanation section first.HeadleyDown 02:44, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
by Belinda Whitworth (2003)
Hello Comaze. By your blanket and non-consensus deletions, you have earned yourself a zero credibility reputation. People here (including those who hold your views) are working through good research to clarify points, and remove pov. You on the other hand are surreptitiously deleting whole passages that do not agree with your agenda, whilst claiming that you are removing bias and pov. I believe that contributors here are being very tolerant. If you would like gain respect and trust then you would do well to have a look at or remind yourself of the NPOV guidelines. EBlack 05:39, 23 August 2005 (UTC)\
In writing an article on any topic one must first explain what it is (in its own terms). One provides sources, but where the description is generally accepted, there is no need to cite page numbers. Anyone who does not understand the subject is welcome to read up on it. If, on the other hand, one is writing critical commentary it is absolutely necessary to cite chapter and verse. Referring to something as "new age" is not acceptable unless included as a critique (with appropriate citation). The term "new age" is so vapid as to be virtually meaningless. Moreover, when used in this context, it is completely POV. It only belongs in an encyclopedia in a section on "criticism" with its source identified. There are many critiques of NLP and they should be included with cites. The point about mass deletions is well taken, so I will start an edit to remove the blatantly POV statements (and there are many). Please work with me on this. Sunray 06:35, August 23, 2005 (UTC)
I believe New Age is a benediction rather than a slur. When you look at the dogmatic attitudes of many mainstay religions, even among scientists, NLP and New Age give off quite a guiding light. They both remain eclectic and non-judgmental. Spirituality is at the center of NLP. It manifests in terms of realising the resourcefulness of the mind, the good in everyone, and the connectivity between all things and our goals and visions. Esalen was a central meeting point for all this new thinking, and a point where the dogma of religion and sciences has no power. They were all new thinkers in this respect. There are some inherent dangers in being so open minded and non judgmental, but they are minimal. For references here, I see no better evidence than the commercial Web, but also the definitions of New Age. But I can easily supply book references also. Regards HeadleyDown 09:04, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Yes. I am also saying that NLP is actually classed as a dubious new age remedy. I have the ref also. HeadleyDown 09:04, 23 August 2005 (UTC) Here is the ref; Jack Raso (2002) AUTISM AND VOODOO SCIENCE TREATMENTS American Council on Science and Health
NLP is not science in a Kuhnian (The structure of Scientific Revolution) sense. The entire field of psychotherapy is still at a pre-scientific stage as there is no consensus paradigm. One should not confused psychotherapy with psychology, as you cannot reduce one subject to the other. The relation between psychotherapy and psychology is like the relation between medicine and biology. The former is about "what is working" while the latter is about "seeking a consistent view". Therefore, at this stage ethics and "evidence-based practice" are far more important criteria in evaluating psychotherapy than "falsibility criteria".
I think seriously we should reformat this article into 2 POV pages, NLP (For POV), NLP (Against POV). I will do this later on today. --RichardCLeen 13:16, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Relating to pre-kuhnian claptrap, the information systems research community also does not have a unifying paradigm, but it also does not have Tony Robbins or whoever, claiming miracles and 10 minute cures for phobias or whatever. NLP is seriously not even going anywhere near attempting a unifying paradigm. But it is important as an entity. It is also quite obvious and identifiable. It is not elusive like philosophy. So it is really very easy for any non-gullible person to handle conceptually. Keep up the good work! EBlack 16:22, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
General Semantics' "the map is not the territory" influence entered NLP via Gregory Bateson. Korzybski did not have a direct influence either co-creators. General Semantics should not be confused with Generative Semantics (Generative Linguistics) which had an influence on John Grinder (see Appendix A. Bandler & Grinder, Structure of Magic Vol.1 (1975), & Grinder & Bostic, Whispering in the Wind (2001)). John Grinder was assistant professor of linguistics at University of California, Santa Cruz, when George Lakoff, the founder of Generative Semantics was professor University of California, Berkeley campus. In 1972, the year before Grinder and Bandler began collaborating, George Lakoff (with Mark Johnson) published "Metaphors we live by", which is required reading for NLP training. George Lakoff later in his career taught Transformational Grammar which was developed by MIT professor Noam Chomsky. It is important to note that Generative Linguistics has been since replaced by Cognitive Linguistics. It is also important to note that Korzybski's "the map is not the territory" distinction has also been challenged and refinement offered in Grinder & Bostic in Whispering in the Wind (2001). Grinder now even says "The territory is not the territory" referring to the fact that information coming from our senses is already subject the limitations of what range of frequency of sound, light, or pressure the sensory system can detect. Any information that can "represented" is already subject to Neurological (f1) and Linguistic Transforms (f2). – Comaze
This is an interesting quote from George Lakoff wiki entry... "A number of thinkers other than Lakoff have also considered the mind to be "embodied." Physicist David Bohm made a similar argument for embodiment in Thought As A System. John Grinder and Richard Bandler articulated this view in Neuro-linguistic programming. Similar ideas can also be found in the work of Julian Jaynes." – Comaze
Thats fine Comaze, but I can put my hand on a score of books that put Korzybski map/territory at the top of the list of NLP influences. BTW, Science and Sanity was a 1933 publication and not 1973. Also, Bateson's contribution was quite different from Korzybsky's by most people's assessment. EBlack 14:32, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Here is a another interesting quote from an interview with George Lakoff[George Lakoff]: "During that period, I was attempting to unify Chomsky's transformational grammar with formal logic. I had helped work out a lot of the early details of Chomsky's theory of grammar. Noam claimed then — and still does, so far as I can tell — that syntax is independent of meaning, context, background knowledge, memory, cognitive processing, communicative intent, and every aspect of the body...In working through the details of his early theory, I found quite a few cases where semantics, context, and other such factors entered into rules governing the syntactic occurrences of phrases and morphemes. I came up with the beginnings of an alternative theory in 1963 and, along with wonderful collaborators like Haj Ross and Jim McCawley, developed it through the sixties." --211.30.48.164 02:08, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
That’s fine User:211.30.48.164/Comaze. If you can weave it into the article in a concise way it should be fine. EBlack 03:02, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
The developers of NLP have consistently written that their ways will enhance productivity and basically be the bees knees to everything and everyone. Their writing is unreliable. Take the most "quotable"; Grinder: He has to persuade the business community that his methods are scientific - kind of, if you make sure you never get around to disproving it. Relying on his version of things is like quoting an advert. He uses extremely biased statements! D.Right 04:15, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
Even peer reviewed journals cannot be taken at face-value. When searching for literature, one has to take into consideration research funding bias, publication bias, researcher knowledge of NLP, researcher hidden conflict of interest, source of funding, methodology etc. That is why critical journal review is hard work. It is tempting to be skeptical without doing all the hard work of learning the subject. --RichardCLeen 18:04, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
It is bad practice to make generalizations about peer reviewed vs non-peer review when doing critical review, even though you may more likely to find unsubstantiated claims in non-peer reviewed publications. There is no substitute for studying the subject matter yourself and critically review each publication on its on right. --RichardCLeen 15:56, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
--RichardCLeen 15:56, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
I have so far been unable to track this paper down on-line. I have replaced it with the following which I believe is correct though I still cannot trace any journal archives: Bradley, E J & Heinz J Biedermann (1985). "Bandler and Grinder's Communication Analysis: Its historical context and contribution". Psychotherapy, Theory and Research. 22: 59–62. [22] Retrieved 25 Aug 2005 --GreyHead 08:01, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
Yes, they sometimes cite the reference in different ways, depending upon which journal they submit to, and depending on the database you use to search. Anyway its probably clearer your way, thanks much HeadleyDown 07:42, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
Thanks Greyhead. You are a star! EBlack 17:53, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
Thanks Greyhead. Its a very truthful account. It reminds me of this one by Dave Barry http://www.lynxfeather.net/nest/humor/2002/alteredstates.html
The more human traits you adopt when looking at NLP the less like a zealous nazi you will become. It seems that NLP is about becoming a superman of the fatherland. This degrades the notion of normality. Normal human life is sacred to me. Some think of it as a kind of disease to cure. The final solution! I feel that humour is the best defense when the NLP snakes rear their slimy heads. NLP is a kind of fundamentalism. D.Right 18:06, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
Really, Comaze. You are not doing anybody any good by doctoring and evasively hiding information. Behaving so suspicously is very unconvincing and sustains the belief that NLP promoters are just duplicitous and mealy mouthed pseudos. It is unconvincing and you are likely to provoke a reversion war. You WERE told before! HeadleyDown 05:36, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Hello again Comaze. If you do not answer directly, you will simply be reverted. You do have a history you know! HeadleyDown 03:29, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Comaze. You may address me directly. You are posting an advertisement and claiming it is a definition. Grinder is completely biased. If you quote it as a definition, it is just Grinder promoting NLP. It is inappropriate. The prior definition gave a balanced overview from a set of far less biased sources. It is balanced. Yours is part of the hype. It is completely unacceptable as a definition. HeadleyDown 05:32, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Here is another definition of NLP, http://www.sueknight.co.uk/Publications/Articles/RealNLP.htm. This one is quite close to Grinder & Bandler's definition, but not as precise. "The study of subjective experience" does not really have much meaning outside of NLP. Whereas epistemology, "the study of how we know what we know" is a branch of philosophy and was part of NLP from the very beginning (see eg. Appendix Grinder & Bandler, 1975). Epistemology also brings the terminology in line with other fields so that NLP researchers can work alongside researchers in other fields. --Comaze 10:36, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Here is another important reference for NLP is George A. Miller's famous article, "The Magic Number 7+-2"...
Oconnor, etc. may have got his idea of Subjective experience from Dilts' title...
Hello Comaze. Your actions are consistent with your previous unjustified reversions. This wikipedia article is not an NLP promotion venture. It is an encyclopedia. Your above argument is almost completely irrelevant. We have an article, it must explain what NLP is. You are clearly trying to remove balanced and well cited passages in order to hide the facts and blazenly promote NLP. Turning a cited example in the critics section (boyfriend with knife and ethics) to a promotion of NLP "kindliness" it utterly futile and transparently deceptive. You may be cunning, but you clearly are displaying Mr Bean cunning. Your statements (eg From the beginning, Grinder & Bandler designed NLP to an epistemology) are both highly arguable and argumentative. I noticed previously that people were correctly citing connections between NLP and scientology. To appease the terminally insecure, those correct citations were adjusted to remove the scientology association. There is absolutely nothing stopping those associations and links from coming back throughout the article. They will also be in keeping with a balanced article. If you continue with your Mr Bean act, I will replace those correct and quotable scientology cult links myself. EBlack 06:52, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
User:EBlack wrote: This wikipedia article is not an NLP promotion venture. It is an encyclopedia.
User:EBlack wrote: Your above argument is almost completely irrelevant.
User:EBlack wrote: We have an article, it must explain what NLP is.
User:EBlack wrote: You are clearly trying to remove balanced and well cited passages in order to hide the facts and blazenly promote NLP.
User:EBlack wrote: Turning a cited example in the critics section (boyfriend with knife and ethics) to a promotion of NLP "kindliness" it utterly futile and transparently deceptive.
User:EBlack wrote: You may be cunning, but you clearly are displaying Mr Bean cunning.
User:EBlack wrote: Your statements (eg From the beginning, Grinder & Bandler designed NLP to an epistemology) are both highly arguable and argumentative.
User:EBlack wrote: I noticed previously that people were correctly citing connections between NLP and scientology. To appease the terminally insecure, those correct citations were adjusted to remove the scientology association.
User:EBlack wrote: There is absolutely nothing stopping those associations and links from coming back throughout the article.
User:EBlack wrote: They will also be in keeping with a balanced article. If you continue with your Mr Bean act, I will replace those correct and quotable scientology cult links myself.
Thaumaturge says: The before version is far better and gives a much clearer balanced idea of exactly what NLP is about (the Oconnor stuff).
Thaumaturge says: I reckon there is no point going through multiple edits (more than 3 per day) simply to get reverted because the direction of change is towards a promotion of NLP. Basically, Comaze is bent on unbalancing the whole piece towards NLP promotion. I don't trust him either. So it just gets reverted. Sorry!
Hello again Comaze. You are indeed trying to narrow NLP down to a very biased version of a single epistemology. Firstly, it is arguable that NLP is an epistemology. Secondly, NLP epistemology is narrow and often spurious in its attributions. Thirdly, other NLP advocates know that it is narrow and have other views (OConnor takes this into account). Fourthly, anthropologists, historians, and even more importantly, encyclopedists have far more in-context, unbiased, and balanced views. So by insisting on NLP epistemology as the core source, you are lowering the argument to that of a cheap marketing campaign. Now, the article will be raised from the extremely blinkered hole of NLP epistemology to include the neutral and unbiased views of the rest of the world. HeadleyDown 04:08, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
To HeadleyDown, I ask you to compare the difference between "spurious attributions" and attributions of logical empiricism. There is a great deal of difference between the two. Logical positivism (later known as logical empiricism) is the type of logic that had a great deal of influence on John Grinder & Richard Bandler in creating the field of NLP. What "anthropologists", "historians" and "encyclopedia editors", are you referring to above? And what specifically are their balanced views? These views may be valid in context. Please provide proper references. --Comaze 08:06, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Hello Comaze. In NLP terms, your map does not match reality. The previous version is closer to reality in that it takes into account more realistic views, and more widely accepted definitions. Your version is clearly biased. You are also being extremely unconvincing. The more you delete and revert without justified reason, and try to justify one part of your change without justifying the rest, the more unconvincing you will seem to people. If you continue to revert, and then decide later to come back to discussion, people will automatically see your arguments as weaker than they do now, and they will see you as more untrustworthy than they do now. Consider the consequences of your actions.HeadleyDown 12:41, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Comaze! There is no need to find counter examples because the subject matter is irrelevant. This is not an article about logic. I have references that predate your references that show the previous version is more correct. Furthermore, Grinder may have claimed to have intended an epistemology, but he actually failed. Grinder has claimed all kinds of things over the decades, and his books prove to be largely inconsistent and his claims are not to be trusted. Look at the definition of epistemology. NLP is not part of a branch of philosophy. It is not taught at any philosophy department I know of. EBlack 10:49, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
To EBlack: Firstly I do appreciate your attempt to raise the levels of this discussion. I will repond to each point you made. / Comaze
EBlack says: "There is no need to find counter examples because the subject matter is irrelevant."
EBlack says: "This is not an article about logic."
EBlack says: "I have references that predate your references that show the previous version is more correct. "
EBlack says: "Furthermore, Grinder may have claimed to have intended an epistemology, but he actually failed. Grinder has claimed all kinds of things over the decades, and his books prove to be largely inconsistent and his claims are not to be trusted. Look at the definition of epistemology. "
EBlack says: "NLP is not part of a branch of philosophy. It is not taught at any philosophy department I know of."
Created a new Discussion topic to keep the references conversation clean
Anyone wonders why there is little mainstream academic recognition of NLP given that Dr. John Grinder was an associate professor at Santa Cruz should read Lee Lady's account of the history of NLP.
http://www2.hawaii.edu/~lady/archive/history-3.html
--RichardCLeen 16:28, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Hi I reattached the last two paragraphs because they are correct, and I have added some more rigorous references. HeadleyDown 02:11, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
I've read the history over a few times now. I'm seriously not finding much info on the history of NLP there!
The first paragraph says that Korzybski was one of the earliest influences - which is fine - but the rest of the paragraph is about Korzybski and other things developed from his ideas (not about NLP).
Then it talks about human potential seminars which the earliest models of NLP were involved in though it doesn't mention their relationship to NLP. It jumps straight into who studied NLP first, and says NLP seminars became popular because of a popular book. In the last few lines "NLP continues to be promoted ..." that sounds more like what it currently is, not the history.
As far as NLP history goes, it could almost be reduced to:
I'm not saying it should be reduced like that! Just that we need to differentiate "offshoots of Korzybski" from "NLP" (and decide what's useful), what influenced NLP and in what way, and include how NLP started.
I'm interested in your thoughts - there'll obviously be some history to changes in this section. I'm happy to _start_ by simply making it clear that the "zeitgeist" (the mood of the time) was related to the Esalen Institute.
(oops, apologies - I have to get in the habit of adding my name and edit summary) GregA 23:26, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Good point GregA. This section has undergone quite a few changes during reversion over the last few weeks as far as I remember. I believe it was originally intended as a historical background rather than the history per se. Actually, the scientific reference that Headley posted really does look appropriate as a way to abstract everything and make it clearer to all. As it is only short, I will paste it up in the appropriate place. JPLogan 03:42, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Well, I've shuffled the history section - keeping all the info on Esalen and dianetics etc since I know this is considered very important for many people. I have added info on Grinder and Bandler modelling perls/satir/erickson (it was actually accidentally hidden in the previous source). I've also made it clear that we're not saying EST created NLP, just that EST was around at that time. I've removed reference to mental_hygiene - early scientific efforts to solve social problems in schools didn't seem relevant. Your thoughts? (ps. if wiki says to give more priority to science can you give me a page ref?) GregA 05:01, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
HeadleyD - I see you've made some changes to the history section and they raise some REALLY important points about the choice of words, and the accuracy of references! You changed:
I wouldn't call them catchphrases, you obviously would. Can you give a reason for the change? Catchphrase to me has connotations of advertising and pop culture - so it'd be an implied negative. I'm open to other opinions please.
You also changed
Just what did Dilts say? Best seller is easily measured. An "inspiration" requires certain judgements. Where did you get those judgements?
Oh, not in this section, but I just read this latest change
Are you seriously pretending to be neutral? Who judged it as diverting attention? Our language reflects our beliefs and preconceptions. Lets keep it neutral. Comments? GregA 15:17, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Another change (you've been busy!)
That's quite a jump. I've heard scientists say there are no facts - just hypotheses which are either supported or unsupported from the gathered evidence. Let us be scientific - to do that we need to gather and lay out the evidence. Are you willing to be impartial? GregA 16:02, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Hello GregA. Sure. I am actually paraphrasing from the book (Oconnor and McDermot). Also, catchphrase fits more with the NPOV science weighting. The inspirational part also seems to fit more with the Esalen influence. Of course I can give you a more quotation type of line if I hunt around for a few days. I have a good library. Again, the attention diversion was to explain more clearly the view that it is towards cycling or the avoidance of peer review scrutiny (in the pseudoscience sense). As far as I can tell this is all neutral language and fitting with the priorities of NPOV. We could work on it with actual quotable refs though. I will place the appropriate refs when I have hold of them. I notice the explanatory sections of NLP also need a lot more citations and a lot less vague obscurantic language. Perhaps you could work on that also. RegardsHeadleyDown 16:53, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Hello GregA. Any surreptitious deletion of well researched and quoted facts will most likely result in reversion. You should know this by now.HeadleyDown 17:11, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for catching that 211.26.245.35. I wrote "Unfortunately, NLP is taught in different ways". Nice change removing the judgement, much better. GregA 01:21, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
The opening paragraph doesn't say what NLP is. The second paragraph kind of does, but its reference to 'modeling' doesn't mean much to me. Also, what on earth does NLP have to do with Turing Machines?! (I know almost nothing about NLP but references such as this sound like pure cultish pseudo-science to me.) Ben Finn 12:51, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Ben Finn: Turing Machine and Automata theory actually back NLP up with formal mathematics. These theories are well-accepted in mainstream science. Turing Machine for example is a basis theory of computer science and cognitive science which is certainly not pseudoscience or cultish.
Ben Finn. As a truthful NLP advocate, I submit to you that you are completely correct. It is a clear sign of a pseudoscience to claim scientific or technological background, but not to support this with scientific evidence. I am desperately trying to create an atmosphere where NLP does not seem too cultish, but Comaze seems to be against me every step of the way. HeadleyDown 13:31, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
I suspect that EBlack and HeadleyDown are Wikipedia:Sock_puppets. Please prove otherwise.
EBlack says: "The OConnor paragraph is commonly acceptable and understandable and of encyclopedic standard."
Good! Comaze you are back! Now, Grinder and Bandler have stated in primary sources and in their editors capacity the same statement written by OConnor. They accept it, now you accept it!HeadleyDown 04:03, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
EBlack says: "The outcomes information is not unique to nlp."
Comaze! EBlack is right. Outcomes formation is a confusing example. Eye accessing cues, would be more appropriate. They are core NLP. HeadleyDown 04:03, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
EBlack says: "Psychologists are only one party with criticisms about effectiveness, cults, etc."
Comaze, the criticisms come from a wide variety of sources including the public at large. They include psychologists, psychotherapists, amateur skeptics, professional skeptics, medical practitioners, hypnotherapists, consumer protection bodies etc. HeadleyDown 04:03, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
EBlack says: "The Bateson is irrelevant to new age because people do not consider him when they promote NLP new age associations. "
Hi Comaze. Bateson is not relevant because although Grinder uses Bateson as a persuasion strategy to attract new agers, he is only a minor consideration, and is largely irellevant.HeadleyDown 04:03, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
EBlack says: "You are still turning the knife example into a non criticism. You cannon delete cited information on cults."
Comaze. I will check on this myself. You presently do not deserve trust. HeadleyDown 04:03, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
EBlack says: "Scientists are not the only ones making criticisms about NLP not being scientific."
No Comaze! NLP took cognitive therapy ideas and has placed pseudoscience principles onto them to make them attractive to new agers. The NLP parts do not work. You misunderstood EBlack, there are others making criticisms that NLP is pseudoscientific. HeadleyDown 04:03, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Hello Comaze. You cannot delete large portions of a page based on a single and erroneous objection (hall). You are behaving deceptively for the umpteenth time. Your reputation is one of deception. The cult section has a link to cults. It does not need an explanation here. HeadleyDown 04:48, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Comaze! That will be dealt with as soon as you stop your deceptive and untrustworthy behaviour. I already have the evidence. You are simply stalling the development of this page by ignoring continued discussion and sustaining a reversion war. Now, deal with all the other points on this discussion page before you even think about reverting. Otherwise you will continue to be treated with all the contempt you deserve. HeadleyDown 05:02, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Hi D.Right and all. Yes, I have also noticed comaze trying to pull a fast one. I am doing a project on NLP, and Oconnor is using Grinder's and just about everyone elses definition of NLP. So if comaze has bad refs he is wrong, but I just believe that he knows Grinder uses that definition, but denies it so he can boost NLP. The other thing is, comaze's explanations etc are not understandable at all. The oconnor definition really does explain things better. The psychic stuff is also true (it doesn't work, but people use NLP to sell and do psychic activities. Cheers 144.214.228.136 06:03, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
NO comaze. I understand you fully. I will clarify to you what I mean. Your writing is bad and the statements you use are either misleading, irrelevant, or they do a very bad job of explaining what NLP IS, and is about. I vote for the non-comaze Oconnor version. Fred Lydon. 144.214.228.136 06:33, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
NLP is and has been defined by John Grinder and Richard Bandler. Anything else is a modification, or at best a paraphrase of the original work. The best source s for the definitions are technical books, Structure of Magic Vol.1 & 2 (1975a,1975b), Patterns 1 & 2, Whispering (Grinder & Bostic, 2001). Those first four books are backed by mathematic formal systems (Finite state automata). Turtles all the way down (1986) and Frogs into Princes are transcribed from seminars so they are not as precise. I will continue to rewrite and revert any changes that deviates from NLP as defined by Grinder & Bandler. --Comaze 22:42, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
Oi Comaze. Now you are dictating to us that we need to use primary sources. Where does it state we need primary sources in the NPOV article? Now you are promoting a fringe view of NPOV. You will never attain consensus that way.
Anybody of sufficient repute, whether it be a critic or a promoter who states anything about NLP. Cited articles from peer reviewed journal research will carry the greatest weight. :The trick is to find the best and most reputable source you can. Try the library for good books and journal articles, and look for the most reliable online resources" (according to NPOV guidelines) Promotional books that are concocted for the purpose of a marketing campaign by those trying to get rich by selling snakeoil (ie Grinder etc) will be taken as untrustworthy, and their comments can be used to infer they are hyping. D.Right 07:00, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
D.Right, Primary source is a requirement of Copyright Law (Fair Use) for critical review. Secondary Sources are fine with me, so are Teriary Sources (such as journals articles). I'm very skeptical of some NLP people claiming to "cure a phobia in 5 minutes". Yes, we should not any accept promotional material unless it is referenced as such. Any NLP definitions backed up with formal systems is also highly preferred. --Comaze 08:37, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Greetings Comaze. In a situation like this I can mediate. Your position is already negative at least 1 to 5 in favour of the OConnor definition, therefore the consensus is to OConnor, and you may actually also find that they will all vote that you have been acting in an extremely uncooperative manner in not working with consensus or discussion. I suggest that I put up a version of the page that is reasonable and fits the consensus level of recent discussions. I will balance it. If you do continue as before, then I will simply not help you again. I believe consensus here will be in favour of my suggestion after viewing my version of the article. Regards DoctorDog 11:33, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
DoctorDog Thankyou, I appreciate your contributions. I will review my entire collection of pending contributions before submiting them for your mediation. I will take into account all major, (and minor) views. --Comaze 12:37, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
DoctorDog. Good solution. Comaze does not deserve such good treatement. I am still in half a mind to remove all of his contributions. DoctorDog, I believe you managed to wisely accept Comaze's coverup-truths, while reasonably excluding Comaze's propaganda. However, I believe we should all keep a watchful eye over the next few months for recidivism from Comaze. EBlack 13:21, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Hi! Yes I agree it is reasonable. But it is very obvious from the history page that Comaze was requested to produce this result on over a score of occasions over the past days, and Comaze simply ignored the requests and tried to walk all over the other editors here. That disregard and disrespect will be remembered for a very long time. I also will stay vigilant. Well done for extremely tolerantly and beyond the level of reasonability, doing Comaze's job for him DoctorDog. HeadleyDown 15:44, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
No Comaze. You remove it. You started, sustained and escalated the reversion war, so you are culpable. Besides, bordering on libel is not libel at all is it! D.Right 02:12, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
"...like my response to the notion of so-called psychic powers, I wouldn't bloody know because I have not yet refined my own sensory apparatus the five channels that I already know about. I have worlds upon worlds yet to discover within what I know to be available to me as part of my heritage as a human being." (John Grinder, (1986), Turtles all the way down, page 16) - Comaze
So he uses occult notions in his NLP seminars to say we have boundless potential and may be capable of magical amazing fluffy feats of mystery. Yes I know! I wonder when he will start claiming it is all part of his NLP epistemology! D.Right 07:57, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
In NLP we tread the fine line of synthesizing the two classical polar opposites of empiricism and idealist traditions ... "without appealing to mysticism" (Grinder & Delozier, Turtles 1986) - Comaze
Further, in Turtles Grinder says, "The transforms of Bateson; the process tools of the 4-tuple, representation systems, synesthesia patterns, Meta-models of language: all are cornerstones in the exploration of this mapping between sense impression and concepts." (Grinder & Delozier, Turtles 1986) - Comaze
Actually, I find this interesting. He is treating the two traditions as polar. However, most of Empiricism ideals stemmed from idealist traditions and the philosophies that ensued. Also, NLP has slipped so far into mysticism that it would take an army of towtrucks to haul it only halfway out. The sense impression and concepts really is just metaphor though. Which basically means it is rhetoric. Science, to date, has found that you cannot even convincingly or usefully separate visuo and spatial as separate factors or constructs in the visuospatial thinking of humans. So his views may be worth posting, but they are extreme to the point of hyperbole. D.Right 12:25, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Firstly, Grinder is not saying that the two traditions are polar. He is really saying the two extremes best represented by Kant and Hume, are polar opposites. - Comaze.
The "mapping sense impressions to concepts" idea also is supported by Albert Einstein talking about the difference between reality and the representations of reality. (Albert Einstein, Autobiographical notes p.13, see also, Physics and Reality, p.292). Also, the quote from Grinder should have read, "without appealing to mysticism". This was influenced by Bateson's who typically would start with Empiricism and attempt rebalance it. In describing the NLP epistemology Grinder found that the typical westerner would consider epistemology (study of our values, beliefs and perceptions) as esoteric. (Turtles, 1986) - Comaze
OK, now you are saying that NLP was inspired by Einsteinian thought? I believe you will need a great deal more support than what is there already. The other information looks great. D.Right 05:19, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
What is your source for saying that NLP was inspired by Einsteinian thought? Dilts did some study Einstein and published his findings in Structure of Genius series. --Comaze 01:10, 17 August 2005 (UTC)- Comaze
Grinder and Delozier drew on work from what was available from western epistemology, when designing describing the NLP epistemology in Turtles (1986). One extreme is Hume's the problem of causation, and the problem of using inductive reasoning to justify induction (Circular arguments are valid, but do not provide a satisfactory justification for the supposition they claim to support). Also, Bertrand Russell that have dismissed the notion of causation altogether as something akin to superstition. On the other extreme is Kant, who advocated the absence of passion in favour of logic. The key doctrine of Kant's philosophy, called transcendental idealism, is that the mind knows objects in the world only by means of sensible forms, space and time, which it produces itself. Without these forms, Kant argues, knowledge would not be possible because the mind would have no way to order or structure the data given to it by the senses. Kant therefore claims that we know objects only as they "appear" in space and time (rather than as "things in themselves"). (src: Grinder & Delozier, Turtles (1986), ch.1, Kant, Hume, the problem of causation)
Grinder and Bostic (2003) have published a paper about Epistemology, Knowledge, & Perception with Tom Malloy of University of Utah, Psych Department. [32]
Their paper is titled Steps to an Ecology of Emergence and is available online... [33]
OConnor is quoting directly from Grinder. That is completely acceptible. Dilts etal includes Bandler and Grinder. That is quotable and the book is entitled, the structure of subjective experience.
You have an extremely narrow view. It is unacceptable for the first paragraph! EBlack 07:39, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
Comaze. I said I would revert all of the page if you altered the first para. I meant it. Nobody trusts you, and you have just demonstrated why you are narrow minded and cannot be trusted! EBlack 07:45, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
"NLP is claimed to be a study of the structure of subjective experience. How do we do what we do? How do we think? How do we learn? And how do we connect with each other and our world on a physical and spiritual level? (O'Connor & McDermott, 1996) (Dilts et al 1980)(Milliner 1988). NLP teachings state that the mind is programmed, and that we all tend to be mis-programmed by negative input in some way. The methods of neurolinguistic programing involve reprogramming, processes of removing traumas (Andreas & Faulkner, 1994) and treating engrams (Bandler & Grinder, 1975). NLP has expanded to include applications to a variety of contexts including psychotherapy, business, sports performance, and the development of psychic abilities, and covert seduction techniques."
"line 2: How do we do what we do?"
"And how do we connect with each other and our world on a physical and spiritual level?"
"line 4: NLP teachings state that the mind is programmed, and that we all tend to be mis-programmed by negative input in some way."
This idea of our mind is "mis-programmed by negative input in some way" is vague, and poorly written.
Hello Comaze! The first paragraph must be understandable, and must reflect the wider views of the whole page. Your behavior will simply cause the page to be reverted. Your version is blinkered and seems more fitting for marketing speel. DoctorDog 00:58, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
EBlack, says: "The claims to psychic abilities are not the editors' claims."
What NLP proponents are claiming that psychic abilities are relevant to NLP? So let's flesh it out a bit. What is "psychic abilities" referring to and how does it relate to NLP? There is no formal description of "psychic abilities" in NLP terms, therefore it is not valid NLP model.
Well let's get down to facts here.
Comaze. Read more carefully:
NLP has expanded to include applications to a variety of contexts including psychotherapy, business, sports performance, and the development of psychic abilities, and covert seduction techniques."
NLP is sold for the development of psychic abilities/remote viewing/remote seduction etc.
I'm re-opening this discussing because I have found some earlier references by Dilts that support that NLP was designed to be an epistemology from the beginning. In Roots of Neuro-Linguistic Programming (Dilts, 1976) the definitions of NLP is outlined and this includes (a) the forms of experience and (b) the structure of physiological and behavioral epistemology. Dilts considers Meta Models and Epistemologies to be at the same logical level (pp.14-19, Dilts, 1976). This use of the epistemology and associated terms allows us to work alongside other wikipedia editors. --Comaze 04:29, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Classic example from the Greeks and NLP training (deductive logic):
All men are mortal. Socrates is a man. Therefore Socrates is mortal.
See also inductive reasoning.
Hi all. I decided the NLP page needed to be a bit clearer in terms of description. I feel it will be better if the page actually tells people what it is about rather than bang on about high fallutin' epistemologies etc. Best regardsOliver Y 13:57, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes Oliver. Its a fine visual explanation. EBlack 02:23, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
Oliver Y, NLP is largely esoteric so it is necessary to describe it in terms of its epistemology. This is actually what defines NLP.
Oliver Y, I've rewritten the eye accessing cues and merged it with a description of the sensory system model that is in line with NLP "representation systems" use and definitions. Also, what is the source for the current eye accessing cues image? It seems to be different to what is taught in NLP (See p.24 Frogs into princes). regards, Comaze.
EBlack revered my changes to the eye accessing cues / representation system paragraph without justification. This was properly researched and referenced. I have restored this but will need support if this happens again. --Comaze 11:57, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
No Comaze. EBlack reverted as a natural response to your deliberately and persistenly deceptive behaviour. I will also revert on those grounds. It is justified based on your persistent desire to push your NLP promotional agenda against consensus, and even after remedy from other tolerant editors. I myself will revert all of your nonsense. If I have the energy and patience I will include some of your less NLP promotional information. That depends on how many reversions you dare to try over the next few days. You have just earned yet another large negative point. DoctorDog 12:31, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
Hello all. I added the image on critical view of NLP. It is a common criticism, that NLP is simply an extension of Dianetics and Scientology. It matches and illustrates the criticism section. Regards DRCoren 13:52, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
DRCoren: You have failed to explain your logic assign NLP as a "simple extension" of Dianetics and Scientology.
I'm digging up references for research into the supporting eye Accessing cues and representational systems. This is a start,
Yes, I have sources, and they are reviews and overviews of the research. They indicate that eye accessing cues is not effective and tells you nothing useful.D.Right 16:22, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Please cite your sources here. --Comaze 01:45, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Hello Comaze. You are working with some extremely narrow and outdated research here. If you want to paste it up thats ok. But you are going to end up with a conclusion from more recent reviews. In short, if you mention all of the single studies you will end up with a huge article. And the conclusion will be that: Empirical research shows that the assumptions and claimed efficacy of NLP methods it completely and conclusively unsupported. If you can provide a recent review or overview of research conducted by independent scientific research bodies then that may be helpful.JPLogan 02:48, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
User EBlack just added this sentance, "Humans communicate by taking in information through the senses, but they also give out communication as energy, and this can be considered the spiritual side of communication." In NLP we refer to collatoral energy (each cell has its own energy source that is powered by our breakfast). According to John Grinder, energy has no significance in communication, for example, it breaks the first law of thermodynamics (conservation of energy)... "The first law of thermodynamics says that the total inflow of energy into a system must equal the total outflow of energy from the system, plus the change in the energy contained within the system." src: energy --Comaze 11:45, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
Grinder split with the others. His view is narrow. Just like your's. D.Right 13:58, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
This view is not narrow, it is used in all branches of physics. ie. "This law is used in all branches of physics, but frequently violated by quantum mechanics (see off shell). Noether's theorem relates the conservation of energy to the time invariance of physical laws." src: energy --Comaze 22:37, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
The common example use in NLP training is: "If I kick my dog named spirit (a natural system), I cannot predict (from measuring the energy) where my the dog will end up." --Comaze 22:55, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
The following paragraph needs to be rewritten. I will remove it for now. For example it claims that "[people] give out communication as energy, and this can be considered the spiritual side of communication." Apart from being false, misleading and lacking in evidence; this is outside the domain of NLP. See for example Bateson's criteria of mental process (p.92, Mind and Nature, Gregory Bateson, 1979). --Comaze 01:36, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
Version that was removed... "Similar to Scientology and Dianetics and other New Age notions, NLP practitioners consider the mind, spirit and physical body as a system; that is, each influences the other. There are several important implications:
No Comaze! You will either adhere to cooperative wikipedia convention, such as discussing and attaining consensus ON EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOUR CHANGES before you change anything at all! Otherwise you will be reverted. We're waiting! EBlack 02:25, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
You are correct EBlack! Comaze is continuing with his sneaky tricks (Claiming one objection, then changing several other points, none of which has consensus). Comaze is persistently uncooperative. I agree with none of Comaze's proposed changes DoctorDog 11:48, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
I agree with the other editors here. Comaze has not had the ability to attain any kind of consensus on these point. So he gets reverted. HeadleyDown 04:02, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
User EBlack just added this sentance, "Humans communicate by taking in information through the senses, but they also give out communication as energy, and this can be considered the spiritual side of communication." In NLP we refer mental process requires collatoral energy (p.92, Mind and Nature, Gregory Bateson, 1979) in that each cell has its own energy source that is powered by our breakfast. According to John Grinder, energy has no significance in communication (Turtles all the way down, Grinder & Delozier, 1986), for example, it breaks the first law of thermodynamics (conservation of energy)... "The first law of thermodynamics says that the total inflow of energy into a system must equal the total outflow of energy from the system, plus the change in the energy contained within the system." src: energy --Comaze 11:45, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
I originally added this communication energy notion. It is quoted directly from Dilts. It will remain. Comaze has not in any way attained any consensus. HeadleyDown 04:02, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Grinder split with the others. His view is narrow. Just like your's. D.Right 13:58, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
This view is not narrow, it is used in all branches of physics. ie. "This law is used in all branches of physics, but frequently violated by quantum mechanics (see off shell). Noether's theorem relates the conservation of energy to the time invariance of physical laws." src: energy --Comaze 22:37, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
Physics is not the subject of the article. Comaze is narrow and has not attained any consensus. HeadleyDown 04:02, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
The common example (given in NLP training) used to demonstrate that "conservation of energy" does not apply to living systems is: "If I kick my dog named spirit (a natural system), I cannot predict (from measuring the energy) where my the dog will end up." --Comaze 22:55, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
Where is your evidence Comaze? And where is consensus? HeadleyDown 04:02, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, your argument is facile. I am not claiming about energy, Dilts is. You will be reverted simply for being uncooperative and deliberately thick and crass. HeadleyDown 13:42, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Conclusion: Comaze is a fundamentalist NLP zealot! D.Right 16:49, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Comaze. Read the NLP references that include the subject of sprituality. EG, the ones you keep deleting (Dilts, OConnor) etc. EBlack 01:43, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Comaze:
Comaze persists with this uncooperative behavior without sufficient discussion, in a surreptitious way, and without ANY consensus.
Evidence http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Neuro-linguistic_programming&oldid=23192935
Until Comaze stops this behavior, trust towards Comaze will be zero and this article will not be developed. EBlack 01:43, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Mmm! Yes, EBlack that checks out. I'll see what I can do about Comaze. Best regards HazelFarnham 01:53, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Sure, Comaze is extremely biased and definitely doing dodgy stuff. I would see Comaze as just a clitch in the system though. Don't feed the troll. There are at least 7 regular and relatively neutral contributors here so I would keep on developing and just revert Comaze's deletions. Cheers HazelFarnham 02:32, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
In reponse to EBlack's accusations:
I completely agree with EBlack, and HazelFarnham's additions are fine. HeadleyDown 03:51, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
HazelFarnham adds this statement, "It is assumed that the expressions of the body can hold emotion, states and patterns in place. It is also assumed that some memories are locked in place physiologically which facilitates time line therapy and past life therapy." and HeadleyDown has no objection. hmmm. Very interesting. Please explain how "past life therapy" is relevant to NLP article. --Comaze 04:12, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Well done HazelFarnham. Bandler himself taught me how to conduct past life therapy, and yes, physiological state is a part of that. Past life therapy is an extension of time line therapy, inspired by Satir amongst others. It relates also to resourcefulness. I also trained with this guy: http://www.hypno-analysis.co.uk/past-life.htm. So I agree with Hazel, and EBlack, and DRight on maintaining these points. HeadleyDown 10:46, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I came to this article through RfC, and though not immediately familiar with the subject, I can see that this debate is exceptionally complicated and difficult to follow regardless. The issue presented, however, is regarding the use of the word "energy" to apply to human communication, and I think from going over the article that this is just one of many serious problems of equivocation present in this article. Clearly something is meant here by "energy" that is different from the common definition; if it's included, it should be made clear what is meant. Similarly, "performance" and "excellence" need to be clearly defined in order to be meaningful. I also removed Category:Psychotherapy from the article as the introduction states that NLP is a "study", whereas psychotherapy is a therapy and not a study (the analogous study to psychotherapy is psychology, or clinical psychology). If I have time later I can at least try and copyedit this a bit, as it's seriously in need. siafu 00:41, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Thankyou siafu. This document is in need of a copyedit. If you have time it would be greatly appreciated.
Sorry Saifu. This article is in the middle of a reversion war sustained by Comaze (against everyone else so far). You may have noticed in the article history. I have started to treat comaze simply as a troll due to comaze's inability to keep off the revert for weeks on end, even against overwhelming consensus against comaze. I am for the clear and understandable version that uses a wide collection of balanced sources, instead of Comaze's restriction to epistemology, and dire need to remove good research. Your suggestions are absolutely fine, and your changes will be well received and taken into account in the balanced version. Feel free to make the changes and when Comaze reverts them, we will do a fine job of making them re-appear. Best regardsHeadleyDown 01:33, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes Saifu. I understand. Easier said than done when a single person is so fanatically disruptive against consensus. I believe your strategy is right though. Actually, "thought energy", from energy therapy would probably do, but I will need to explain that there are no physical correlates between the new age/NLP notion of thought energy. I can provide references also. I understand comaze just wants to delete it because it goes against comaze's agenda. Comaze regularly deletes anything non-NLPpromotional. I am an NLP advocate and prefer to include all views in a balanced way (encyclopedically). Best regards HeadleyDown 02:52, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Comaze. Refrain from placing redundant information, bias, and mostly, refrain from reverting before the other editors have had a chance to assess your discussion. Acting against consensus will simply get your changes reverted. Wikipedia conventions should be followed unless you want to continue your change/revert war that you have been conducting for the past four weeks. HeadleyDown 06:13, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Comaze. I disagree with all of your changes. You have not convinced me or anyone else of your need to make these changes, even after weeks of making more than 3 reversions per day. There is no need for me or anyone else to be clearer than that. We have a page that agrees with the majority (Voice of all) and the only changed from that point will be line by line after consensus, with no more than 3 edits per day unless there is no consensus, in which case reversions will cease until consensus is reached. D.Right 07:40, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
D.Right and HeadleyDown have again removed the 'dubious' and 'dispute' tags that marked evaluative or misleading information. Removal of these tags is bordering on vandalism and arguably simple reversions to revert these changes are probably within wikipedia policy. These tags are necessary for neutral parties to come in and review, and I urge any editors to do research before removing these tags. --203.100.233.178 09:00, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Hello 203.100.233.178. The tags were removed due to Comaze's singular and biased application of those tags. They were applied with no effort to seek consensus, and no consensus. Considering the kneejerk delete/revert history of Comaze, and the disruptive and deceptive actions of Comaze, the tags were removed. Removing the tags is reasonable and consistent with consensus. HeadleyDown 09:57, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
The entire article looks dubious to me. I am unable to make any sense of most of it whatsoever. It appears to be nothing more than a collection of buzzwords thrown together without any coherent structure. --Gorgonzilla 16:40, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Hello again Gorgonzilla and Siafu. I understand that you mean you want the article to say clearly exactly what NLP is (eg, NLP is a method of programming the mind.....etc) using the clearest definitions possible, and then to use clear terms all the way through without assuming the reader will immediately understand the NLP Jargon. This is what I have been trying to do. Is that what you mean? Best regards HeadleyDown 01:41, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes I believe this is the future of the article. NLP is often criticised for this problem. As an exemplary pseudoscience it often uses obstruse terminology designed to sound scientific, without any proof behind the various notions or constructs. I think we are on the edge of a changeover. The article as it stands has gathered a great deal of information, and relevant fact (more so than any other source I can put my hands on. There has been efforts to clarify these points. For example, the clearest definition I have ever found is the "study of the structure of subjective experience" as all those words are well definable. The epistemology label is very dubious and arguable (it really is not taught as part of a philosophy course).
I believe from the ViewOfAll version it will be possible to determine exactly what NLP uses, and how the terms relate to meaningful psychology terms. Best regards HeadleyDown 18:17, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
We need to make this article more coherent. We need to get in some experts. --Comaze 22:33, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
It is quite obvious that HeadleyDown is submitting his own agenda here. I think alot of these issues would be resolved if we come to agreement on the relevant sources for NLP.
--Comaze 23:46, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Greetings all. I have been surfing this article for quite a while, and decided to offer my help on clarifying things. I am from a psychology background and may even be considered an expert in change and therapies. I believe Gorgonzilla and Siafu's comments are fine, but require a little more specificity to areas of priority in the article. Considering the reversion frequency, and the huge and undiscussed and confusing changes going on, I believe the best start will be from the ViewOfAll recommendation. I understand this was from the authorities of wikipedia. Any changes from that point should be small. They should be discussed, and consensus reached. I am not interested in reverting several times per day, just because somebody wants to promote NLP as a philosophy. I believe there are some very cooperative editors here who should be thanked for supplying so much good information to the page. Their's is a stablizing influence. I do not belive we need multiple definitions. The "study of structure" definition is fine because it actually says something about the subject. However, a simpler line will be useful to introduce the definition "eg NLP is a proposed method of programming the mind". Any adjectives such as pseudoscientific may well be true according to the article, but may predjudice the reader. Of course any vast changes to the page will almost definitely be reverted. This is wikipedia convention as far as I can see. I have come to understand how things work here. I will visit the article about once every day or every few days. So I will appreciate an incremental article that moves slowly enough for people to think about it, research and respond (fewer edits in a day, the better). That will be cooperative. Any vast changes or unwarrented, or undiscussed changes to other parts of the article will be uncooperative. I am a quite strict about uncooperative behaviour. Gorgonzilla and Siafu, you will be very useful as an outside pair of eyes in order to say whether something is clear to readers, or not. ATB JPLogan 04:23, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
(JPLogan, HeadleyDown), you have again added a factually incorrect image of "Eye Accessing Cues" that includes a "Kinesthetic construct". This is not correct. What is your source for this information? I checked p.24 of Frogs into Princes, it should be "Aid" or natural language.
Comaze. You are simply being restrictive in order to paste in your very unclear catface diagram. The multiface diagram is correct according to most of the sources (which are admittedly inconsistent) and it is very clear. HeadleyDown 07:15, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Comaze. I cannot reply specifically to such a vague statement. Which of my additions do you specifically consider nonsense? Do you mean all of the ones that were edited in through consensus? Or just the ones edited in through consensus that you tried for weeks on end to delete? HeadleyDown 07:15, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
I thought that the "Eye Accessing Cue" image was a simply factual dispute that would be resolved by placing a reference to the original source and page number. Since this has been ignored I've done a search on google images to prove the point. A quick search on google images proves this (all these appear on the first two pages of google images. All these results link have NLP eye accessing cue charts...
For a full list use google image search, for "eye accessing cues" see([42])
Now compare those results with this version from HeadleyDown/Oliver Y. Notice the Kinesthetic construct that does not appear in the NLP literature or on any NLP eye accessing chart on the internet. Now compare these two:
Look, you guys, there is NO STANDARD EYE ACCESSING MAP. Bandler's book merely illustrated ONE POSSIBILITY, and stressed that you don't know ANYBODY'S eye accessing map until you have taken the time to find out by asking the right questions. Therefore, either label the thing properly (as a map which applies to only SOME people), or get rid of it.
I've just completed a major cleanup of the talk page. This involved mainly fixing up the headlines and moving topics to bring them under the correct headlines. It still needs some work. It took me a while so I hope it is appreciated. Hopefully this will help get some external editors in to help clean up some of our factual disputes. --Comaze 12:33, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
This paragraph does not make any sense at all. So I deleted it....
According to the NLP presupposition that closely relates to human potential improvement, the client has the resources they need. The NLP practitioner leaves it up to the person to subjectively indicate what works and what does not. If they are observed subjectively and carefully, they will actually show it quite clearly in their words and body language, what the problem is, how they experience it, and which ways it will or will not work, or will be blocked. So the NLP practitioner will attempt to use their skills to help the client explore their 'map' (perceptions and preconceptions) of reality. The rest of NLP is then, in effect, an attempt to help the practitioner understand, work and communicate within another person's world view.
What organisations falsely claims to be registered as universities in their own right? I am only aware of one non-accredited university that offers degrees in hypnosis (not NLP), that is American Pacific University.
The sale of private courses is unlikely to change until the subject is taught more widely in more publicly accessible venues, and until the innovators decide inventing gratuitous terminology is superfluous. There are only a few training establishments offering properly accredited courses in NLP, but a large percentage of these claim falsely to be registered as universities in their own right.
The paragraph is not at all questionable. Claimed NLP universities are very questionable: eg
"Michael Bennett is like an enlightened angel who speaks with intuitive grace and imparts wisdom in a way that's just damn fun!" or - NLP Master Practitioner, Clinical Hypnotherapist, Certified Life Coach and Reiki
Practitioner.
"Where miracles happen & dreams come true".
Now that is a dubious university! HeadleyDown 05:17, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
These are a few examples, but it does not amount to "large percentage" as the paragraph states. --Comaze 07:51, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Comaze! And your solution is to remove the entire paragraph based on your view of a small inaccuracy? Like you have been doing all along? This is not the way to behave and you will simply get reverted based on your history, and your bias. That is the consensus! HeadleyDown 08:59, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
The multiface eye accessing cues image is perfectly acceptable: http://www.smartdriving.co.uk/Misc_pages/Eye_accessing.htm the image is consistent with many other similar images, and gives a clear idea of what the process is about. HeadleyDown 09:10, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Dude, did you even look at your own link? Your link does not even have "Kinesthetic Construct"! --Comaze 09:25, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Give it time Comaze. Why the rush? How come no other editors persistently attempt to make large and anti-consensus changes, several times a day, apart from you? HeadleyDown 09:50, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
There is no rush. We're getting near a good description of NLP now. We just need clean up the distinction between "New Age" and "NLP". Just because some people who do NLP are also New Agers doesn't mean that the NLP (modeling/formal systems/epistemology) is new age. The term new age is so vague as to be almost meaningless anyway. Such confusion represents a Logical Level/Logical Type error there. (see Bertrand Russell, Type Theory) --Comaze 10:18, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Comaze. You are saying one thing and doing another. No wonder nobody trusts you. The new age label has already been discussed in depth. Consensus found it acceptable, as does good research. HeadleyDown 11:10, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
HeadleyDown This is not about trust. This is about creating a useful resource document that is based on NPOV. I provided 8 references to show that your eye accessing cue image was false and yet you still replace it with your non-sense "Kinesthetic construction" image. Can you please familiarise yourself with Bertrand Russell and Type Theory so you can make valuable contribution to this page. Your personal attacks are getting boring. Please stick to facts and cite your sources.
Comaze. I must remind you of NPOV
Wikipedia policy is that all articles should be written from a neutral point of view, representing all views with significant support fairly and without bias.
For as long as you have been editing here, you have constantly sought to bias the material to that of Bandler and Grinder, and you have even admitted you are commited to that end. That rather dismisses all the other views and is completely against NPOV. You have persistently deleted verifiable facts from the word go, mostly when it goes against your agenda (which seems to be to remove all NLP criticisms (mostly by science)). You are behaving completely against consensus, and completely uncooperatively. There are other editors here. Recommendations have been made by authority wikipedia editors, and those recommendations should see the light of day for more than a few hours. You seem committed to hiding facts away, and removing consensus at every possible opportunity. You make one erroneous objection about one fact, then you determine to remove all the other facts surrounding it. This is unacceptable and will result in your edits being reverted. Its as simple as that. Now you go back to the NPOV page and read it properly. HeadleyDown 17:48, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
HeadleyDown I have no objection to including critical evaluation of NLP (by Scientists, Psychologists, Linguists, etc). As long as NLP is properly defined. If you accept HeadleyDown's 'New Age NLP' definitions, it makes it very difficult for critical evaluation simply because NLP is not an example of New Age. New Age is not an example of NLP. Critical evaluation of New Age belongs in the New Age section. Sure NLP may be popular with some [[New Age]ers but this does not classify NLP as New Age. --Comaze 23:56, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
HeadleyDown added this dubious "Kinesthetic Construct Eye Accessing Cues" that has never appeared in any NLP literature. See ([46], [47], [48], [49], [50]) Or use google image search for "eye accessing cues" ([51])Notice there is no "kinesthetic construct" in any of those images. --Comaze 23:56, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Hello all. I've been reading this discussion with interest - I use wikipedia regularly but haven't gone 'behind the scenes' before. My first thought is I have to commend you all for putting together a good informative page! It's obviously continuing to evolve, and infact reflects some of the disagreements throughout the whole NLP 'community'. Like everyone, I have both an understanding through, and preference towards, the branch I trained with (in my case New Code), so a page like this helps widen that view. Naturally I do not want NLP to be defined as my 'branch' defines it - the branches do have different approaches and accuracy requires that reflection. I must say that I haven't found ANY resource ANYWHERE that helps someone get a grasp of the basic similarities and differences in the branches of NLP. Maybe one of you does? So I'm reading partially from that angle - how does someone work out not only what NLP is generally, but also some of the substantial differences in approach that have developed from its beginnings (and through this find out which approach they would value and what holds little interest). I don't know if you think that would be useful!? (would it encapsulate the opinions expressed here too?). Anyway I'll read more with interest - I don't understand the editing process etc yet - and hope to be involved in some way. Thanks :) GregA 01:53, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
GregA Your contributions would be most appreciated. Please familiarise yourself with NPOV as we are moving toward that in this document. There are two main competing versions of this document:
--Comaze 02:35, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Greetings GregA. I also recommend the NPOV article and will take this chance to reiterate this key NPOV statement: Wikipedia policy is that all articles should be written from a neutral point of view, representing all views with significant support fairly and without bias. According to Wikipedia founder Jimbo Wales, NPOV is "absolute and non-negotiable". [1]
I do suggest that you steer well clear of the Comaze direction and actions, as they have consistently proven to be against NPOV, and against cooperative wikipedia activities. Wikipedia strives towards neutrality and representation of all views fairly, using science over pseudoscience as an organizing framework.
The two competing pages really are quite different in direction and history. The Comaze version has proven through its history to be a fact deleting version that has already the stated goal of removing the other science, sociology, history, anthropological views (see above), in favour of promoting a single and strongly pseudoscientific and promotional non-neutral view (Bandler/Grinder). The HeadleyDown version (a seemingly neutral and wikiprocess-friendly version) is a persistently multi-inclusive view with a bias for science as an organising framework.
There is one very easy way you can help. You very honestly state you are an NLP advocate. Similar to the neutral and NPOV adhering NLP advocates who generously apply their knowledge to building a balanced and neutral page, you may also have the chance to prove that some NLP advocates can remain neutral. Like them, if you ever find the Comaze Bandler/grinder NLP promotional soapbox has been posted up, you can simply revert it back to the multi-view and cooperative consensus version (HeadleyDown/Viewofall version). It would be best to do this with a simple statement such as - revert to NPOV all-viewpoint version, and about two hours after the historically narrowing version has appeared (in order to avoid rapid reprisals from non-neutral parties).
This would certainly help editors such as myself who have no home access to the internet, and would like to see an NLP article that is not constantly regressing into pseudoscience and promotional anecdotage, and instead, is moving towards multi-view clear, organized, and cooperative neutrality according to NPOV. Regards JPLogan 04:30, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Sounds great GregA. Any extra views you discover in the literature about NLP will certainly be well taken into account within the NPOV priority framework by cooperative editors. Remember that the article is about fairly representing what people believe about NLP within NPOV. I'm sure it will progress somehow. The different branches can be represented somehow in relation to the other point of view of scientists etc. Cheers HeadleyDown 06:20, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
I propose to add something like this to the "Criticism - Cult" section...
In, 1980 Steven Hassan attended a seminar with Richard Bandler and John Grinder on hypnosis. Later Steven Hassan moved to Santa Cruz to start an apprenticeship with John Grinder. Steven Hassan is now one of Amercia's leading Exit-Counselor's. Today Steven Hassan uses some of what he learnt from NLP and John Grinder to help people exit and recover from cults mind control. (Stephen Hassan,Combating Cult Mind Control (1988) And merge it with something like this from the "Stephen Hassan" page...
"Hassan contends that cults recruit members through systematic deception, behavior modification, withholding of information, and emotionally intense persuasion techniques, such as the creation of phobias), collectively termed mind control." (src: Stephen Hassan). --Comaze 03:54, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
The Hassan statement will be fine on its own, but you may hear other ideas from the other editors. HeadleyDown 07:32, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Maybe something like this would be better... Steven Hassan studied NLP with Bandler and Grinder in 1980 and moved to Santa Cruz to start an NLP trainer apprenticeship with John Grinder, but ended this early to do his concerns with the NLP's commercial promotion. He began to persue his own study of the NLP foundational models (Milton H. Erickson, Gregory Bateson, Virgnia Satir). NLP (and the models that NLP was based on) allowed Hassan to, "analyze and create a model for the process of change that occurs when a person goes into a cult group and then successfully leaves it." (p.33). Today Steven Hassan is one of Amercia's leading exit-counselors and uses some the methods learned from NLP and John Grinder to help people exit and recover from cults mind control. (Stephen Hassan,Combating Cult Mind Control (1988) --Comaze 08:09, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Stick with a very brief single line version with a link. You seem to be writing a stub about Steven Hassan. Just remember it should fit in with the criticism section. HeadleyDown 10:19, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
The term cult is sometimes used to describe the field of NLP as it is used as an ideological pigeonhole for contemporary writers because by definition cult depends on contrasts with an established orthodoxy or doctrines.
NLP is sometimes associated with modern day cults (Tippet, 1994) (Langone, 1993). NLP and hypnosis is seen as an intrinsic part of modern ritual mind control tactics (Crabtree, 2002) and the field has been monitored by the Cult Awareness Network (Shupe & Darnell, 2000).
Anti-cult activists (Langone, 1993) claim that NLP and hypnotic techniques can be used by both mild cults and very aggressive cults to induce dependence on the cult, and to further provide conditioning to induce compliance within the cult .
NLP trainers and practitioners, in contrast, view the NLP meta-model as one way to develop critical thinking, by asking question such as, "How do you know that?" to ask for sensory based evidence for claims of miracles without demonstrable evidence. Noam Chomsky (anti-doctrination advocate) and linguist is claimed to be the source for much of the NLP methodology, and Steven Hassan, a leading exit counselor used the foundational models of NLP (and the models that NLP was based on Erickson, Bateson, Satir) to, "analyze and create a model for the process of change that occurs when a person goes into a cult group and then successfully leaves it." (p.33, Stephen Hassan, Combating Cult Mind Control (1988)
In sharp contrast to Bateson's criteria of mind, some critics regard NLP to be closely associated with new age, shamanic, or pagan spirituality. This may have been influenced by Richard Bandler's use of shamanic metaphors, or John Grinder's stories from Carlos Castenada's Don Juan Matus in his seminars. --Comaze 11:39, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
One line at at time. What do you all think of having this as the first sentence of this article?
Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) is most widely defined as "the study of the structure of subjective experience" (Dilts, Grinder, Bandler, Delozier, Cameron-Bandler, 1979).
I believe the priority is moving towards science now. It looks like a science statement about the nature of NLP will be more useful for starters. So the "programming the mind" line will be a better start for now, I believe. HeadleyDown 07:35, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
With all the stuff I've been reading about science/psychology criticism... I'm not sure what you mean by "moving towards science". On a related note.. my NLP training considers the programming idea history - so if a definition can be found that encompasses the field that'd be great. GregA 07:52, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Oh Sorry, I should make myself clearer. I meant that there have been recommendations to fit more closely with the NPOV of Science holding more weight than pseudoscience. So a definition or "description" of NLP from scientists will be primary, and then an NLP defitition of NLP can be secondary. I am sure there will be less definitions by scientists to sift through:)
Here is one for starters:
Science and Pseudoscience in Clinical Psychology. By Scott O. Lilienfeld, Steven Jay Lynn, and Jeffrey M. Lohr (Eds.) Guilford Press, New York. ISBN: 1-57230-282-1, Hardcover, 474 pp.
"Neurolinguistic programming is a pseudoscientific self help development in the same mould as that of Dianetics and EST". HeadleyDown 10:45, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Hi HeadleyDown. This is excellent. On closer examination, it fits the scientific view that has been stated throughout the article, it is succinct, categorical, and well referenced. JPLogan 03:45, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Is HeadleyDown and JPLogan the same person?
Unfortunately the word pseudoscientific is biased in this context. Pseudoscientific refers to something claiming to be scientific yet this is false or fraudulent (see pseudo. To say this necessarily involves a JUDGEMENT of the field, hence it's POV, it doesn't matter if some researcher said it is. The challenge is to present NLP as it stands, include the criticisms, and let the readers come to their own conclusions. GregA 04:07, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Exactly how many aliases does HedleyDown have? He could at least attempt to disguise his pompous style! (FLINT)
The thing is, I agree that there is some really dodgy NLP going on out there. REALLY DODGY. Mixing NLP and energy therapies, past lives, etc etc. The field has diverged greatly over the years - today it has a great mix of quality, and probably few that are really good. We'll have to address that range more clearly somehow in this page. Even once that's done, we're going to have to make the introduction more globally relevant to NLP rather than talk about both extremes. look up Pseudoscience - on wiki it's defined as false/fraudulent/pretending. Online dictionary says it's "mistakenly"... either is a judgement, and belongs fairly under CRITICISMS.
Now, there are some NLP practitioners who don't call it a science at all. There are some who do call it a science, but back up what they do with data that is not valid. There are some who are doing good research. Personally, I'm also interested in the difference between SCIENCE, and SCIENTIFIC METHOD
The reason for my interest is the lack of hypotheses used in NLP modelling, though it's certainly systematic.
Please define pseudoscience from multiple sources and explain how it isn't a criticism GregA 08:24, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Hi GregA. Pseudoscience is a social phenomenon. It doesn't have to be a criticism, although you can take it as such. Whether NLP teachers or developers claim to be teaching science of excellence or not, they are proposing observations, proposals, and hypotheses about structure. Cause and effect. Those hypotheses have been tested by scientists in rigorous scientific studies. They were found to be false. But NLP developers continue to claim that they are not false (or that they work). That is only one key characteristic of a pseudoscience. NLP displays many more of these pseudoscientific characters.
Ok, The overviews and reviews, and meta-analyses of the whole range of reliable studies indicate that the hypotheses and proposals of NLP developers do not follow significantly enough to say that they work. They are unsupported. HeadleyDown 13:01, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
It is not your job to critique the studies conducted. Go back and have a look at NPOV. Nobody want's your or my opinion. We write it using NPOV policy. Please do so. HeadleyDown 13:01, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Please be constructive. If you can find any views (apart from your own) that say NLP is not pseudoscientific, then go ahead and introduce them. HeadleyDown 13:01, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
I agree with you CarlOxford. It is a very neutral line. Some descriptions of NLP tend to include words such as scam etc and in the other extreme, you have "the difference that makes the difference" etc. The scientific definition is true to type. Science is generally very neutral. Looks fine as a beginning line. I can link it to the relevant pages to give it even better descriptive power. HeadleyDown 08:36, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Hedleydown, could you please respond to points made above. Your inability to respond to evidence that contradicts your own POV is undermining any credibility that your arguments may have. The research database does not unanimously support your conclusions as you claim. Lets be clear, you cannot claim to speak for 'science' as a whole as you frequently do. You can cite scientists who support your position (although you frequently don't). Please refrain from making claims that are designed to appear as though they represent the entire scientific establishment, when in fact they only represent your POV. (Lee 13.23 20 Sept2005)
Please be patient. Responding over and over again to the same old stuff is really not what editors should be doing. Just stick with NPOV policy, and edit. So far, science gets the priority over pseudoscience (for good NPOV reason), and the statements show that scientists believe NLP is pseudoscientific.
Just putting together a list of definitions of NLP from NLP trainers, please assist...
Direct quote from Joseph O'Connor and John Seymour, when defining NLP: "NLP is the study of how people excel in any field and how to teach these patterns to others. This process is called modeling" (p.25, Traning with NLP, Neuro-Linguistic Programming: Skills for mangers trainers and communicators", 1994)
"NLP is the study of how people excel in any field and how to teach these patterns to others. This process is called modeling" ,when defining NLP - Joseph O'Connor and John Seymour (p.25, Traning with NLP: Neuro-Linguistic Programming: Skills for mangers trainers and communicators", 1994):
"NLP is a behavioural science that provides:
No HeadleyDown 'science' does not say NLP is pseudoscientific. You say NLP is pseudoscientific by selectively choosing your sources and choosing to ignore others. You have no justification for claiming to speak for the field of science as a whole. You are trying to appropriate an authority that you do not have. Some scientific sources have claimed aspects of NLP (or purporting to be NLP) to be pseudoscientific, other scientific sources do not support this view (Lee 11.38 20 September 2005)
Hi Greg. I'm glad you have been reading the NPOV policy. The point about judgment is simply not to state your own judgment, but to say what other's believe about a subject. I never stated what I think about NLP. I simply represented what other people state. Its a good rule. We already have more than one source supporting the fact that NLP is pseudoscientific. I will add the other refs when appropriate. So far, I would say that the common ground is that NLP is not specifically a scam, not specifically a cult, and not specifically a religion. As GreyHead said, the intro should briefly represent the whole article in a balanced way according to NPOV. Presently it seems to do so. As wikipedia has an actual category "pseudoscience" I see absolutely no reason whatsoever not to have this article well within that category. It is a neutral label of wikipedia. I have already listed the characteristics of a pseudoscience, and there is more than a few scientific sources who show solid factual evidence for their belief that NLP is pseudoscientific. I would like to add, that NLP has a nice non judgmental spirit, for those willing to reach that level. It comes mostly from Perl's notions of Zen spirituality in therapy. I suggest you stay non judgmental towards pseudoscience. Any objection to that rather neutral wiki word can well be construed as a desire to promote NLP. Its very telling. Regards HeadleyDown 13:47, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
HeadleyDown 11:18, 20 September 2005 (UTC)Hello Lee. OK, I will clarify. This article needs organizing and clarifying. Science over pseudoscience is the best way to do this according to NPOV. The beginning line gives the strongest yet most neutral way of doing this ie Pseudoscience, and then going further to clarify which kind of things belong in that category. The whole article points that way. It is a very helpful line and completely agreeable with NPOV. Regards HeadleyDown 11:18, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
OK, again, I am not judging NLP at all. The source I added believes that NLP is pseudoscientific. I will add more sources in time as requested and as is reasonable by cooperative wikipedia standards. I'm sure you understand that. HeadleyDown 15:13, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
The logic HeadleyDown appears to be using goes something like this 'If something is claimed to be NLP, then it must in fact be part of the body of knowledge of NLP and therefore must be represented here as such', by the same logic then anything claiming to be science must in fact be science and must be treated as such. A point of view I scarcely think HeadleyDown would agree with. So, a clear case of double standards. Furthermore, it is clear Headleydown that you are not going to change your opinions. Reasonable attempts to provide counter examples have constantly been dismissed, contra-evidence not considered. Furthermore, you engage in slandering, patronising and/or insulting contributors rather than respond to points made in good faith. Good, neutral arbitration would seem to me to be the only way to get a fair and representative article. What is so disappointing to me is that you evidence none of the authentic hallmarks of a truly scientific approach which you spuriously claim to represent (Lee 20 Sept 2005)
Hello Lee. I'm glad you are trying to work this out. Really I do not need any kind of logic to write someone's belief that NLP is pseudoscientific. If it is a scientist's view, then it takes priority over a pseudoscience view, as per NPOV policy. If I have insulted anyone, then I am sorry. But people should stick to NPOV. So far the only intention I can see from you is to bannish the fact. Am I right? I do understand the scientific method as I have conducted experiments myself to PhD qualifications standard and beyond. Other people here may not have reached the same level of understanding. However, I remain non-judgmental. You really only need to read the research carefuly, and see what conclusions the literature review, and research reviews came to, and then state those conclusive remarks in the article. My and your views about science do not come into it. Simply follow NPOV and we will be fine. HeadleyDown 15:13, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
"If Neuro-Linguistic Programming is the study of the structure of subjective experience, and the study of how we know, then it is an epistemology. It can also be described as a methodology, or a meta-model ( a model of a model). Using NLP, we can isolate and describe patterns of thinking and awareness used by real people to act in the world with excellence. This is the art of modelling or replicating talent." Chris and Jules Collingwood (p.5, NLP Field Guide, Emergent Publications, Sydney, 2001)
A common criticism of who? Please cite sources (Lee 11.44 20 September 2005)
Sure, Sala et al 1999, Thaler Singer et al 1996, Lilienfield 2003, Druckman and Swets 1988, and Carroll 2005 all criticise NLP for this problem.
"NLP is a behavioural science that provides:
Please comment.. Below here :) --Comaze 10:03, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
None of this contradicts the scientific view that NLP is pseudoscientific.
HeadleyDown 13:01, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
It seems that Headleydown no longer has the concensus that he previously used to shout down opposing views. When and how will the article be revised?
I've reverted it once. HeadleyD reverted it back. I'm hesitant to get into a reversion fight of 2 opinions - so I'd prefer to let someone else make that change (would you like to?). I'd suggest going back to the definition shortly before the pseudoscience definition was made. GregA 14:54, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Um Greg. Sure your reticence to start a war is fine. However, I am not quite sure what you are trying to do with this statement, but we just got to a point where people had stopped removing facts (after weeks of them deleting facts and valid opinions). You seem to be asking people to remove a fact. That's about the same as doing it yourself. Lets keep to NPOV and sensible cooperative and neutral editing please. HeadleyDown 15:18, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
OK chaps. I have come to a decision. I will remove the line myself in order to appease those who's own biased judgments overcome their desire to work with wikipedia NPOV. Anyway, Lets just get on with good NPOV, Right?HeadleyDown 15:47, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
HeadleyD, it is fairly clear from looking at the NLP research database that mixed results have been obtained in many cases, and negative results in others. No-one is disputing the fact that more and better quality research needs to be conducted, and if hypotheses are consistently unsupported then they must be dropped. It is also true that infortunately NLP has been associated by some purported trainers with things like speed seduction and so-called 'psychic' phenomena. No doubt the blame must lie within the field for its inability to control quality and methodological standards. However, the vociferous challenges put up by many contributors here is because these claims are not recognised by most members of the NLP community as NLP. It is also true that there was a lengthy and unseemly legal court case, and that whilst this as ongoing the field fragmented further and any centralised attempts at organisation impossible. Now this is over, hopefully things will improve. Far from trying to evade scientific scrutiny, there is a large movement within the field to try and establish greater scientific scrutiny and cross disciplinary research. Such efforts are admittedly in their infancy, but you cannot criticise a discipline for trying to implement the scientific standards which you espouse here. Time, better organisation, better standards and better quality research will ultimately decide whether NLP has anything valuable to contribute. (Lee 17.28, 20 sept 2005)
Sorry, I meant to add that perhaps we can continue to create a fair and balanced article by acknowledging controversy where it exists and providing arguments and evidence for both sides. For example, we could acknowledge that NLP has been associated with various 'psychic' phenomena by some but this view is not supported by the mainstream of the community providing the necessary links and citations. We could acknowledge the references to NLP as pseudoscience with the relevant study citations, especially making their specific criticisms explicit, and allow the right to respond to such criticisms, again with quotes and citations as necessary. This would seem a fair way to proceed. No information need be supressed, and no-one would feel unfairly represented. I sincerely hope we can proceed in this manner (Lee 19.04 20 sept 2005)
Hello NLP fans. Well, take a look at your statements over the past few days. They have all been desperately directed towards removing a fact from the article, just as has been done over the past few weeks with other facts. If I had not moved it myself, you would have removed it. So far, I can only see evidence for a disregard for NPOV, and a complete misunderstanding of views and reviews of science. Comaze. The research to date, does not support the eye accessing cues hypothesis at all. Take a while to look up the actual references and read the articles. There is more evidence to come. ----- The US National Committee was asked in 1984 to judge the various techniques, and they used 14 different judges in order to do so. The 1988 report said "Individually, and as a group, these studies fail to provide an empirical base of support for NLP assumptions...or NLP effectiveness. The committee cannot recommend the employment of such an unvalidated technique" (Druckman & Swets, 1988). Since then other objecive and empirical studies have consistently shown NLP to be ineffective and reviews and meta-analyses have given NLP a conclusively negative assessment (Bleimeister, 1988) (Morgan, 1993) (Platt, 2001) (Bertelsen, 1987). You will need to find equally independent overviews and reviews of research in order to controvert these statements.HeadleyDown 01:20, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Well at least we know who the NLPPOV editors are:) JPLogan 02:55, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
That is an old reference and subsequent research will have taken that into account. In fact if you read the research they actually state they took the recommendation into account. That includes the reviews of all the research. JPLogan 02:55, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
The Einspruch & Forman (1985) is still valid because the same design and methodological errors have been repeated in subsequent research. John Grinder Ph.D provides an summary of proper framework for empirical testing of human patterning in Whispering (2001). An interesting place for eye accessing cues research is EMDR. There is also some research using conjugate lateral eye movement CLEM that backs up the Eye Accessing Cues study. Lee Lady has an Biblio for Eye Accessing Cues and Cognitive Style, on his site [55]. But this is probably outside the scope of this article. --Comaze 03:26, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Hello 202.67.127.248 Please provide references for his viewpoint : Also NLP practitioners are very keen to stress that some of the most important information is gathered from physiological cues and signals (gestures, posture, eye movement, breathing patterns, facial expressions including mintute facial color and facial micro muscle changes to calibrate a clients emotional, physiological and mental state, etc), RegardsHeadleyDown 04:47, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
202.67.127.248 Please slow down! Actually I don't see any recent posting to Talk from 202. GregA 06:01, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
AliceDeGrey - you said you've reverted my fact deletion trick? All I did was cut and paste the whole "NLP is not a science" to higher in the criticisms section. It seemed that the ineffectiveness section and pseudoscience section were related and they were better together. I will ask before moving something like that again. Please tell me why you think it's inappropriate though! GregA 06:01, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Hello GregA. I agree. My apologies. But the comparison view showed that you had cut some of the list. However, I had just reverted something by Comaze that was obviously against NPOV. Your very large change does not really sit right with what the recommendations were when the "view of all" page came into effect (small, few, and incremental changes). atb AliceDeGrey 06:07, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
HI AliceDeGrey - I've only come on here recently so I've read some of the histories of interactions here - the main thing I've got from that is
All I did was move a subsection so the not-a-science and pseudoscience could be read together. I deliberately made NO changes to the text so that I was playing fair. If you agree making the scientific/evidence/pseudo stuff clear together is useful, I'll let you move it back. If not, no problem :) GregA
GregA, That makes it alot easier to follow. Those two section could probably be merged (maybe by a third party copyeditor)? --Comaze 06:15, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Hi headleyD. I won't judge a change based on who did it - it's what they do. I guess over time I'll trust some user's changes more than others. Hi comaze - I think it is easier to follow, thanks. When you said "we are working to merge science and pseudoscience - were you taking a guess at my intentions or do you mean there's some discussion about that I've missed? There is a difference between "not a science" and "pseudoscience" which probably should stay (I'm not sure yet). Some aspects of "not a science" could be moved to "pseudoscience" though I'm sure. At the moment I feel this whole things is a bit of a mess - the layout needs an update, and the POV creeping in from both sides.
Damn - I see there's more reversion happening. HeadleyD, for the record, I was hoping that you'd be involved with which you thought belonged to "not-science" and which belonged to "pseudo science". Lets get some feedback and please lets not move anything until anyone else who cares about where it is has a chance to say something here (24 hours?) GregA 06:36, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Ummm... HeadleyD, AliceDeGrey... you both reverted it but neither has said what you actually think of it :) GregA 06:39, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
There was enough said in the summary. HeadleyDown 06:54, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
This is just silly and pointless. Just wait for people to respond before replacing after reversions. Its very simple. HeadleyDown 06:54, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Agreed, let's wait 24 hours. --Comaze 07:07, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Hi Everybody. As per my earlier recommendation, can the section not be revised along the lines of citing the studies that evaluate NLP as inneffective, then allowing any relevant responses to that criticism (as per the discussion here) then a final comment agreeable to all. If you want to have the reference to pseudoscience in the article, it would be balanced to say that 'some scientists have evaluated NLP as pseudoscientific (add relevant cites)' and then allow a response to that statement. Science per se does not make statements, only particular scientists working with particular data at particular times. CarlOxford, I don't see how refering to people working in good faith as 'NLP sucking flakes' helps matters. Lets simply cite the evidence available and let people decide. There also seems to be a fairly robust set of criterion for evaluating a pseudoscience in the relevant section which could form the basis for a similar evaluation. No-one here is saying that NLP should not be subject to scientific scrutiny. Furthermore, no one wants to suppress any of the evidence so far, just allow a reasonable discussion about it. The research database currently is way too small, and primarily centres on eye-accesing cues and primary rep systems. There are many other aspects of NLP which need to be properly evaluated. Input on experimental design would be welcomed. Those aspects of NLP focusing on the analysis of language are especially under-researched currently. (Lee 110.15 21 Sept 205)
Hello Lee. Just the other day you said: "No HeadleyDown 'science' does not say NLP is pseudoscientific. You say NLP is pseudoscientific by selectively choosing your sources and choosing to ignore others. You have no justification for claiming to speak for the field of science as a whole. You are trying to appropriate an authority that you do not have. Some scientific sources have claimed aspects of NLP (or purporting to be NLP) to be pseudoscientific, other scientific sources do not support this view." However, you have not provided any scientific sources that say NLP is not pseudoscientific. I looked for those sources and there are none. On the other hand, the sources that do say it NLP is pseudoscientific refer directly to the whole of the NLP research and the research reviews and meta-analyses. A scientific fact can be presented according to NPOV as long as it is not controverted. Your or my opinion about it does not matter. If another scientist states that NLP is not pseudoscientific, then we will have to balance things. But there is no argument. It is an accepted fact that NLP is pseudoscientific. NPOV states that science comes first, and the most important thing is simply to have a name associated with the quote. Regards.HeadleyDown 09:49, 21
Hi HeadleyD, I assume that these are the sources you refer to. 'Sala et al 1999, Thaler Singer et al 1996, Lilienfield 2003, Druckman and Swets 1988, and Carroll 2005 all criticise NLP for this problem.' Are these all independent analyses or do they refer to each other? Give me some time to look these over and the specific criticisms. Any help from other contibutors would be appreciated in this matter, especially in relation to what aspects of NLP were being tested, methodological design etc. My intention here is not to refute these findings, but to get more specific information into the article. As pointed out, the research databse does not universally support the conclusion that there is no evidence to support some of the hypotheses. Furthermore, why do you consider the published article in the peer reviewed Cybernetics and Human Knowledge by Malloy (Psychology faculty, University of Utah) and Grinder/St Clair inadmissable?
Hi. By NPOV standards they can be considered independent and quotable. Sure there are studies out there that say certain techniques work to some extent. However, the overviews or reviews of these multiple studies have shown that NLP gets a statistically negative result. Of course you may quote NLP advocates stating that it doesn't matter. But these are secondary, because they only have pseudoscientist's flim flam to help them, such as anecdotes, passing the buck, and obscurantism. This is all valid to wikipedia. But we do need to organize it in NPOV terms. There are certain priorities that are helpful and clarifying.HeadleyDown 13:02, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Hi Greg. Sure, Lilienfeld was relating those points directly to NLP. It it best to be clear about how NLP is pseudoscientific, and although the details are in the links, it would be much clearer to state how nlp is pseudo within the article as long as there are not too many words there.
Yes Greg. He said "NLP is a pseudoscientific self help development in the same mould as Dianetics and EST. The list of characteristics are more of a definition of pseudoscience, but he also refers specifically to each characteristic within the text about NLP. In order to keep it neutral, I decided not to quote all of that in the article, it is extremely scathing and takes up too much space. As I believe Druckman and Swets said, if the claims of NLP turn out to be unsubsantiated, the verdict will be a harsh one indeed. So, the verdict IS a harsh one indeed, and has been voiced by far more scientists than just Lilienfeld. For the sake of wikipedia, though, we can try to keep it encyclopedic and neutrally toned.HeadleyDown 06:25, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Sure! They are already in the article. They have been there for months. They took all studies into account. RegardsHeadleyDown 14:59, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
What is clear is that HeadleyD is clearly pushing a personal POV whilst trying to hide behind NPOV. There is no point in trying to try to get a collaborative effort going here because his mind is fully made up and he believes himself to be fully in possession of all the relevant facts.There is only one version acceptable to HeadlyD and that is his which he equates with the entirety of the scientific establishment. As a self-appointed guardian of truth and science, possibly of the professional'sceptic' variety, it is clear that he is determined to pursue his agenda to associate NLP with cult activity, Scientology and the like, based upon the three citations that he has produced to support his viewpoint which actually they do not - they merely state the research so far has produced mixed results. The only way to proceed at this point as I see it would be to engage some kind of arbitration. This seems unlikely as I can find no such facility on Wikipedia. So,the future seems to be a tedious reversion war, a nitpicking over minor points whilst we try and respect the NPOV whilst he flagrantly flouts it at every turn. By the way, to establish whether sockpuppeting is going on, all contributors could forward relevant e-mail addresses to administration to check if necessary (Lee 23.40 21sept 2005)
HeadleyD, the following quote is from the American Psychological Society- distinguishing science from pseudoscience section. 'Distinguish skepticism from cynicism. One danger of teaching students to distinguish science from pseudoscience is that we can inadvertently produce students who are reflexively dismissive of any claim that appears implausible. Skepticism, which is the proper mental set of the scientist, implies two seemingly contradictory attitudes (Sagan, 1995): an openness to claims combined with a willingness to subject these claims to incisive scrutiny. As space engineer James Oberg (see Sagan, 1995) reminded us, we must keep our minds open but not so open that our brains fall out. In contrast, cynicism implies close-mindedness. I recall being chastised by a prominent skeptic for encouraging researchers to keep an open mind regarding the efficacy of a novel psychotherapy whose rationale struck him as farfetched. However, if we foreclose the possibility that our preexisting beliefs are erroneous, we are behaving unscientifically. Skepticism entails a willingness to entertain novel claims; cynicism does not'
Furthermore, this is the verdict from the meta analysis. Quotes taken from article on sceptics dictionary site
'A few years ago Dr. Heap, Principal Clinical Psychologist for Sheffield Health Authority and lecturer at Sheffield University, did a very careful and thorough study of all the research that has been done into certain claims of NLP, citing 70 papers in all.
'This verdict on NLP is .... an interim one. Einsprech and Forman are probably correct in insisting that the effectiveness of NLP therapy undertaken in authentic clinical contexts of trained practitioners has not yet been properly investigated. If it turns out to be the case that these therapeutic procedures are indeed as rapid and powerful as is claimed, no one will rejoice more than the present author. If however these claims fare no better than the ones already investigated then the final verdict on NLP will be a harsh one indeed."
Hmm, case not closed then HeadlyD? (Lee 00.28, 22nd Sept 2005)
Hello Lee. Thanks for the pointers. RegardsHeadleyDown 04:10, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Hello all editors. I must firstly say that there is a lot of unwarranted objection here concerning HeadleyD's edits. I will go through them, and if I see anything that can be made more neutral, I will. I will not delete any cited facts because that is against NPOV. Concerning your comments, I will focus on what is actually relevant to the article. There are many editors here, not just Lee, GregA and Comaze. Like me, they treat wikipedia in a reasonable way, without posting or deleting vast tracts of objection or editing. They will, as you may have noticed, revert any deletion of facts. Take a look and you will notice this has happened over the past few days by Comaze and GregA. On a positive note, this is happening less than before. The prior weeks involved wholesale deletion of facts with Comaze's stated commitment to change the article to Bandler Grinder viewpoint only. That is completely unacceptable. If you want to write a promotional testimonial to NLP then do it elsewhere. The Carl Sagan suggestion is interesting. I have a link to some of his work that will do well in the Pseudoscience section, but I believe explanatory paragraphs will be unnecessary. The Heap reference shows that NLP is scientifically unsupported although that is almost 20 years old. Thankfully, due to NPOV editor's reversion of deleted facts, and editors peace keeping removal of fact from the first line (after objections from obviously NLP promoting people) this article is actually coming along quite well. Lets keep up the good work. JPLogan 02:26, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
I propose that we to move to negotiation or Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee. An alternative is to work on a temporary version of this page and then allow a neutral party to select the version that is scholarly, logical, and best represents NPOV. --Comaze 23:23, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Comaze. I seriously don't like being called a sockpuppet. Here's my email strictly for wiki discussion - alicedegrey@yahoo.co.uk. If Bateson stated something relevant to the article then simply place it appropriately according to NPOV. But there are other views that will be represented.AliceDeGrey 03:13, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Due to constant reversions it looks like we have no other choice other than arbitration. In preparation, I have set up a temporary site Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming(Temp) where I am developing an alternate version of this article. Once this alternate is of high enough quality we can seek to merge and replace sections via arbitration. --Comaze 04:46, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Hello Comaze. Now I'm going to be polite. Please stop with the large section changes. People are going to see it as a distraction or confusion tactic. If you want to make changes, simply do it incrementally, leaving time for people to assess your first proposed change. Nobody has had a chance to comment on it yet. It is easily accessible from the history page. Personally I will say that it is biased towards Grinder, and it should not have the scientific description of its methods removed. Basically do not remove facts. Keep them there, and work cooperatively.HeadleyDown 04:28, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Yeh for sure, the provisional version is not good at all. Firstly, it removes key facts, and secondly it is no way near as neutral as the "view of all" version.AliceDeGrey 05:30, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
The alternate version is not complete yet. I'll ask for comments and opinions from neutral parties and it will be copyedited before an arbitrator is called. --Comaze 05:48, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
The arbitration process has already began. I suggest that you improve the quality of your "version". I will incorporate any of your contributions if they are of high quality and in line with NPOV. --Comaze 04:46, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Hello Comaze. What exactly do you mean by two different versions?HeadleyDown 04:55, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Hi comaze and Headley and other interested editors. I've no idea whether setting up 2 independent pages will resolve differences, but it's an interesting idea and I'm willing to give it a go. In the interests of eventual merging, I hope it's fair for the "supporting faction" to invite the "pseudoscience faction" (is that a fair name?) and others to make comments in the talk section of each other's pages, so that alternative views can be integrated.
Also, I think it's still worth considering the overall layout of the page for either/both - especially in light of eventual merging (I don't think either is in the desired structure yet!) GregA 12:04, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Neuro-linguistic_programming&oldid=23739724
Hi all. Here is a brief version of the article. This is in response to the other external editor who came a few days ago. My intention is to get the article down to size whilst keeping all the main facts in a readable format. I deliberately cut a lot of the examples as they took up a lot of space and were not really so exemplary. As far as I am aware, I did not cut any referenced material. I took time to explain each of the various parts of NLP (the neuro, the linguistic etc in the overview. I also cut a lot of the critical section down, placing some of the scientific finding in the main article because they are mostly neutral statement of fact, rather than criticisms per se. The article file size is way down.
Oh, I should add, a lot of removal was intended to reduce confusion inherent in NLP, in order for the reader to manage to get through it without having to look up strange NLP obscurantisms. They really do make the language very biased.
Feedback will be appreciated.HeadleyDown 09:16, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Hello Headly. Feedback: The new article is SERIOUSLY biased, concentrating almost entirely on negative claims about NLP but without an intelligent questioning of the validity of those claims. To suggest that this article is unbaised is simply unsupportable.
Hello Lee. I have a chance to be more specific. The views protrayed here are fact. They conform to NPOV.HeadleyDown 11:24, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
For example: A and B say NLP is a cult. OK, now what definition of a "cult" is being used here? How specifically does NLP qualify as a cult within that definition?
Hello again Lee. The defition of cult is clearly spelt out in the literature. It also conforms with wikipedia's article on cults.HeadleyDown 11:24, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
Does the fact that the Naziis highjacked the theory of evolution mean that the theory of evolution is an inherently Nazi ideology? No? Then why is NLP to be associated with Scientology and other cults just because those cults use certain techniques which are similar to methods found in NLP, especially when Scientology, for example, pre-dates NLP by around 20 years and so certainly didn't get its ideas FROM NLP.
No, from the article, it is more clear to take a Dianetics-NLP process viewHeadleyDown 11:24, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
If you were to take the time to look at the back of The Structure OF MAGIC l you would wind a lengthy list of the people and books Grinder and Bandler used in developing their ideas. I don't see L. Ron Hubbard in there. Do you?
Hi again Lee. I would restrict your view to the inside of books. Any cover tends to be promotional. Although, I understand that NLP books are about as promotional on the inside as the cover.HeadleyDown 11:24, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
If this version of the article is posted it will be a triumph of pure bigotry, IMHO.
Hello again Lee. I believe your term bigotry is quite biased. Though, I am quite happy to balance it with "scientific" if you like.HeadleyDown 11:24, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
HeadleyD, I note you have been responding to a contributor who has not been signing their ID as Lee. None of these contributions are from me. I take care to sign any contributions. I do not know who the above contributor is, but please do not assume that they from me or respond as if they are. However, assuming that know things when you are mistaken seems to be a strong point of yours Lee1 16:32, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Hello Lee. Actually you have missed signing a few times. Its a little confusing. Doesn't really matter though. As long as you have something factual to contribute within NPOV policy.HeadleyDown 17:30, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Hello HeadleyD. Your version is far better. Very concise and much reduced redundancy. I'll revert it up there myself. I suggest that if anyone wants to add to it, it should be strictly withing NPOV, using very concise language. I will get to work on it straight away. If anyone worries about anything being left out, instead of reverting please paste the passages you think need pasting, and we can get right down to distilling them to encyclopedic status. Great stuff.JPLogan 02:08, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Sure GregA. I understand it is quite hard sometimes to seperate hype from fact. Best thing is to learn as much about NPOV as possible. Your balance has been noted by others also.JPLogan 03:53, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Hi. You have clearly been doing loads of stuff. I'll get my act together and get the linkwords into links to other pages when I have time. TataAliceDeGrey 08:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Its extremely good, Headley. It looks much more like an encyclopedia article now. I would say that the principles of NLP do need to be there, or the presuppositions. But they only need to be placed there as a 3 or 4 line paragraph without the NLP hype and boosterisms. I noticed you have removed a lot of redundancy from the whole page. That's great. This is actually the first time I saw you remove anything from the article (unlike other editors). You did it very neutrally as far as my perception goes. I would also like to hear feedback from outside sources. best regardsAliceDeGrey 09:44, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Hey Comaze. The engram is the central concept of anchoring, eye accessing cues, and the mind/body part of NLP. I s'pose its better to be called a sockpuppet than a gurusuckpuppet. C.Oxford@hotmail.comCarlOxford 09:01, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Sure Comaze. I will post in the references to back up the related viewpoints on scientology. From off the top of my head, I believe it was a prof of psycholinguistics who mentioned scientology. BTW, dianetics is still used within scientology. So you could say it was the original name, but it would be more accurate to say they are slightly seperate subjects. Whatever, if a view states the word scientology, then by NPOV, that is the word that will end up in the article. Sure, the reference to engrams and traumas etc was from a Dutch researcher. I will add the reference (if I have not already done so). I can also write, "just as in scientology and dianetics NLP uses the engram concept...etc". But I don't think that will be necessary as it is a widely known concept in psychology (though largely debunked). RegardsHeadleyDown 10:36, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Hi All, I decided to check out further the studies cited by Headlyd as as per his previous quote 'reviews and meta-analyses have given NLP a conclusively negative assessment (Bleimeister, 1988) (Morgan, 1993) (Platt, 2001) (Bertelsen, 1987)'
I started with the most recent. Platt 2001 refers to an article in Tuk magazine, Training Journal, it is not a study - its references are Dylan Morgan as does HeadlyD. So I checked the Morgan reference. Morgan 1993 refers to an article listed in the sceptical dictionary, 'A scientific assessment of NLP'. It is not a study in itself, instead referring to the meta study conducted by Dr Heap quoted above which states that NLP has been insufficiently researched. Contrary to the impression he tries to give, these are articles that all refer to each other! Check this guys refs carefully, he is being misleading in the extreme. In the alternate version for arbitration, I propose we cite the studies such as Dr Heaps VERBATIM (Lee 10.49 Sept 2005)
Hello Lee. If you have been refering to the web versions you will notice that they have been cut short, without the references or the abstract. You will find crossreferencing in some, but that is simply because they are reviews of all prior research. My statements were neutral. Unsupported means that there was no evidence to conclude that NLP's assumptions or efficacy was correct, and if you take time to read what I had written, you will notice that I did write Heap's statement verbatim.HeadleyDown 10:08, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
HeadleyD, from the article... 'For example the conjecture that a person has a primary representational system (PRS) which is observed in the choice of words has been found to be false according to rigorous research reviews (Morgan, 1993) (Platt, 2001). The assertion that a person has a PRS which can be determined by the direction of eye movements found even less support (Morgan, 1993)' - this is a blatant manipulation of the facts. Rigorous research? Morgan is an article referring to the Heap Study, Platt in that bastion of peer review science 'Training Journal UK' referring to the Dylan article selectively misquoting the Heap study to support a misinformed and blatantly biasd POV. You are being deliberately obscurant. Lets submit that sentence to arbitration shall we. (Lee 11.19 22 sept 2005)
For example, I note you left the first half of Heaps quote out -'This verdict on NLP is .... an interim one. Einsprech and Forman are probably correct in insisting that the effectiveness of NLP therapy undertaken in authentic clinical contexts of trained practitioners has not yet been properly investigated' Any particular reason? Not entirely supportive of your POV is it? You should remove all references to Morgan and Platt as being rigorous research and cite their references e.g Heap. (Lee 11.28 22 Sept 2205)
Hi Lee. For the sake of conciseness and precision, scientifically unsupported will do. It is the same thing in science. As I said, of course subsequent reviews will also take into account the prior ones. That is the nature of scientific examination. By NPOV standards they are completely acceptable. RegardsHeadleyDown 10:36, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
'For the sake of conciseness and precision, scientifically unsupported will do' - says who? You, I suppose. The very reason neutral arbitration is required. How is leaving out the one half of the actual verdict precise exactly? 'As I said, of course subsequent reviews will also take into account the prior ones. That is the nature of scientific examination'- nonsense. Neither Platt nor Morgan are scientific reviews in any way as well you know. (Lee 11.50 22 sept 2005)
Hi Alice. Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree about the sources. I'm fine with quoting scientific studies verbatim in a balanced way as per Dr Heap, but to refer to Platt and MOrgan as rigorous scientific research is misleading. I'll incorporate this in the alt version. I will put together a paragraph on principles in coming days as you suggest. (Lee 12.14 22 Sept 2005)
Sounds fine to me, Lee. As long as it is representative. I have a whole bunch more refs coming in BTW. So much to do, so little time!HeadleyDown 12:01, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Great, lets hope they're all of the same high standard as your previous ones. I found this from Druckman Swets report - 'the committee found promise in the importance that NLP attributes to decoding an expert 's behavior as a guide to training a beginner' . More selective editing Headleyd. Really Lee1 15:35, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Hello Lee. I take the view from the latest research. That gives the best overview. From that point it is very easy to see the actual conclusive results of each study. You are quoting from the speculative sections. Really, they were all conclusive studies (No scientific support for the assumptions or efficacy of NLP). This is the general understanding of how published papers are read. The fact is, if it is some significant person's opinion (eg, the views of a scientist), then it will be represented according to NPOV policy.HeadleyDown 16:45, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Great, got some good ones coming up for you. Lee1 18:24, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Hi GregA. Just make a simple quote. If someone says, "all the reviews of the studies of NLP indicate that the theory and efficacy are scientifically unsupported", then they can be quoted as such. If you get into "this single study says this and that single study says that", you are going make a 500k page. Also, you are not allowed to come to your own conclusions. It has to be other people's work as per NPOV policy. RegardsHeadleyDown 00:43, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Sure GregA. Good questions. As an encyclopedia article though a breakdown of results will simply be confusing. I can't see how we can do that within the article without causing a mess. I think you may have a slightly different idea of anecdotal from most people:) There are some people who think NLP is the science of attaining an unfair advantage in business, and others who's view is that it is a pseudoscientific grab bag of banality and second hand opinion. Best to stick to clear descriptions and what people's views are, as in NPOV policy (IMHO).RegardsHeadleyDown 03:48, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Hi Greg. Best way is to stick with concluding comments and then quote a name. I'm actually still working on that. I am not sure about divisions though. There is a division in terms of single studies and reviews. The single studies will say some, none, some, no, a little, weak to no support, and on. The reviews all come to the conclusion that NLP is scientifically unsupported. The books that quote the reviews all come to the same conclusion (nlp assumptions and efficacy are theoretically and scientifically unsupported). RegardsHeadleyDown 05:03, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm afraid I detect potential problems in the proposed re-write.
Firstly, I don't see any awareness of the limitations of trying to apply the scientific method to psychology in general. At the start of his book "The Mind's Past", Michael Gazzaniga makes the specific point that "psychology" is not susceptible to the experimental rigor that can be applied in areas such as neuropsychology, neurophysiology, etc.
Nor do I see any recognition that one cannot prove a negative, which in this case means that failure to prove a spwecific NLP concept in a particular experiment does not *prove* - as is usually claimed - that this *disproves* some claim made by NLPers.
Nor do I see any consideration of the viability of the people being referenced. Skimming through the article I almost immediately spotted one person who I know has a highly personal grudge against one particular NLP trainer which he has projected onto NLP in general (I know because we've excghanged several e-mails with the person concerned). Likewise I have been informed that one online author of material highly critical of NLP has never attended an NLP training or group of any description and is therefore making many totally unfounded allegations entirely out of his own imagination/prejudices/second, third, fourth, fifth-hand reports.
Nor do I see any awareness that there all that carries the label of NLP doesn't necessarily belong within NLP. For example, whilst the current articles make numerous references to the work of Robert Dilts, there is a growing awareness that some of his best known ideas - so-called logical levels being a prime example - don't actually make a whole lot of sense and don't fit in with the basic concepts of "true" NLP - see Grinder's comments in "Whispering in the Wind" for example.
It seems to me that what is needed as a starting point for a genuinely useful article on NLP is a far clearer definition of what will and won't be counted as "NLP". I realise whatever result is arrived at is bound to be somewhat arbitrary, but I don't see any way round that. After all, whatever article is produced, it can still carry pointers to other topics as being allegedly associated with NLP.
Please don't get me wrong. I totally agree that some pretty ludicrous claims have been made in favour of NLP, and some of the criticisms are entirely justified. However, this does NOT invalidate NLP itself. The ill-advised actions of the over-enthusiastic neither validate nor invalidate the object of their enthusiasm. If they did then surely the entire article would consist of nothing but "A says this about NLP, but B, C and D say that". Which gives us great insight into what A thinks, and why B, C and D don't agree - but doesn't actually tell us much about NLP.
Rather than take up a lot more space here, may I invite you to visit this FAQ on my website which deals specifically with experiments on the "eye accessing cues" and relates this to the question of scientific testability of NLP in general.
http://www3.mistral.co.uk/bradburyac/nlpfax09.htm
Andy Bradbury (author of "Develop Your NLP Skills")
OH! Hello again Andy Bradbury. Sorry, do you share the same IP address as Lee?HeadleyDown 11:29, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
Thankyou GregA. You are turning out to be a promising source of balance:) RegardsHeadleyDown 10:47, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
Hello Andy (81.158.79.60). As a contributor to wikipedia it is not acceptable to submit your own work. Please refer to NPOV policy. Concerning grudges etc: It does not matter what anybody submits as long as it falls within NPOC policy (it has to be not your own work, but a stated view of somebody, preferably with a cited name attached (for verification). We should not be promoting our own views, rather building a balanced article. Admittedly, over the past few weeks there has been a reversion conflict. This has led to some extremism and some extensive deletions of cited fact. The dual page effort has led to a level of improvement that has not been possible over the past two weeks. Statements have been properly attributed, comments and partisan views have been removed, tone has been improved, and fact has had a chance to be heard. Balance remains to be attained, and I can see people are working on it. Neutral definitions have been attained with a NPOV policy towards science rather than pseudoscience as stated in the policy of wikipedia. Today, the page has undergone a large deletion of fact, with no NPOV reasoning for it. Under the circumstances, the only remedy is to revert the page. There are far less destructive solutions when you look through NPOV policy and tutorial. Cooperation is crucial here. We will all benefit by working together. RegardsHeadleyDown 10:16, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
Headley
Hello Andy Bradbury. I'm afraid that is correct. Your own work is not admissable. It will be taken into account though. Luckilly the page is currently being converted to neutral language and balance and looks to be making grand progress.JPLogan 06:01, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
My sole reason for referencing my web page is because the FAQ in question is approx. 5,000 words long, and whilst it is all about other people's work - with references - I thought that might be a bit large to dump here.
What I would like to know now is how I may go about submitting a genuinely neutral article on NLP. That is to say, an article which presents the facts of the matter without all the spurious references that are presently included, and without trying to arbitrate on which side is "right" or "wrong." For example, ALL of the current content on "pseudoscience" is a pure red herring. NLP never has been a "science" itself, though it is indeed supported in *some* respects by scientific research. As far as I can see, this, like the utterly false allegations of a connection between NLP and Scientology and/or est and/or the Landmark Forum, have been introduced as an excuse to beat NLP about the head (so to speak), which is why I claim your new version is still unacceptably bigoted - not to say poorly researched.
I know precisely where this twaddle has been copied from, more or less verbatim, and you may care to know that - according to the information I have - the person concerned has made this up out of second, third and fourth hand information plus a mountain of imagination and ignorance of the subject. Which is to say, NONE of it, as far as I know, is based on genuine first-hand experience. So what the heck is the point of referencing this stuff as though it were an informed opinion.
As to my reference to the person with the grudge, are you sure this doesn't matter when it has led to the person in question creating lists which include URLs for sites which allegedly refute some aspect of NLP but which in reality don't even mention "neuro-linguistic programming" because they are about some technical aspect of "natural language processing" which the person who created the list clearly doesn't understand? Again - lots of bigotry and hold the fried facts. Is THAT really the kind of material that Wikipedia is looking for?
Hello again Andy. The work done on this version of the article is in the process of being validated by a lot more than one editor. If there are any erroneous references, then they will be eventually removed. If you know for sure which refs are wrong, then it may be useful for us to know. Presently we do have two pages running together. Previously the NLP biased editors were removing verified fact, and this was causing problems. Even today this was done by a committed narrowly Bandler/Grinder biased editor. The plan is to work on each page in tandem. If you work on the parallel page, it will also give you time to check on any refs from this page that you feel may be wrong. If there is any merging to be done, then we can sort out which refs are actually wrong. Bigotry, grudges, and first hand experience really do not come into it. The article simply follows wikipedia NPOV policy. Follow the link and have a look at the tutorial also. RegardsHeadleyDown 16:41, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
Hello. NPOV states that your submissions may not be your own work.JP.JPLogan 06:01, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Dear JPL - I take your point, and accept it as far as I can. What I'm wondering now is where you think there is a single entry on the whole of Wikipedia that ISN'T someone's personal opinion? Even the choice of who to quote and who to leave out is a direct demonstration of the writer's personal opinion.
Take the opening line of the page as it currentlyt stands:
"Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) is a quasi-spiritual behavior-modification (or "performance psychology") technique"
1. In what sense is NLP "quasi-spiritual"? Who says so? We are given O'Connor and McDermott as references - but apart from having written some books about NLP, what part did they have in creating or developing it? None. They are offering an opinion. We are also offered Dilts as a reference. But much of Dilts' work, thougfh he was there at an early stage in the development, is pure nonsense. John Grinder, in his recent book "Whisperiing in the Wind" specifically questions whether ideas developed by Dilts, in particular so-call logical levels, has anything to do with genuine NLP. Bandler has moved on to the study of some genuinely spiritual areas, such as shamanism. But NLP and Bandler are NOT the same thing. Which is why Bandler has invented new names for the various stages of his progress - DHE(tm), NHR(tm), etc.
2. The term "behaviour-modification" has a specific meaning in psychology and relartes to the work of the behaviourists, and to the work of B.F. Skinner in particular. The underpinnings of NLP, however, are akin to cognitive therapy - which was as much as anything a revolt AGAINST behaviourism.
3. NLP is NOT "a" technique - it IS "modeling." All the techniques and methodologies are tools for carrying out the modeling process (of which there are variation), they are NOT actually NLP. Therefore the VAST majority of the Wikipedia article is NOT about NLP but about techniques (PLURAL) intended to support the model process. Source - John Grinder.
4. On a similar note the article quotes a number of sources who CLAIM that NLP is a cult. Duh! I can find numerous sources, even today, who claim the Earth is flat. Just quoting references is greasy kids' stuff. There are certain basic features of a cult which NLP completely fails to meet, which est only partly met, and which Landmark Forums hardly meets at all. For example:
(a) References are made to Large Groups - but this has nothing to do with NLP itself. **Some** NLP trainers currently provide training for a hundred or more people at a time, but the vast majority go for a dozen or two. (b) Who is the sole figurehead of NLP, as in Sun Mung Moon, Ron L. Hubbard, Werner Erhardt, etc.? In desperation Tony Robbins is wheeled out, BUT Tony Robbins is NOT part of NLP. He may have been on courses headed by Richard Bandler, but he has set up his own organization with it's own title and its own agenda. Robbins has had no part in the creation or development of NLP and does not represent NLP in any way, shape or form.
In reality the current article starts in error and proceeds downhill at a rate of knots - not "despite" the referred to sources, but because so many of the sources are worthless. They may indeed have said and/or written what they are quoted as having said/written - but since they are speaking of that which they know not of - so what?.
NEXT
Thank you to Carl Oxford - your post illustrates exactly the kind of argumentation that stands between us and the creation of a genuine neutral article on NLP:
"From ABradbury's link, I'd say its pretty obvious he knows absolutely zip about science."
Actually I did two years of utterly worthless "experiments" in psychology whilst doing a degree in Social Psychology. Now Carl *could* have asked what, if anything, I know about science – just as the “editors” of the article *could* go out and gather some genuine facts - but instead Carl just jumps to a conclusion that fits with the point he wants to make, without asking any questions at all.
"His books keep going on about how NLP is the most powerful synthesis of psychology in the biz world etc."
This is interesting, since it exactly demonstrates my point about invalid sources. It is undoubytedly true that Carl has made this statement BUT it is a load of codswallop. Firstly most of my books have been about programming computers rather than people – I’ve only had one book on NLP (as in neuro-linguistic programming) published to date, though a previous book on Turbo Prolog did feature various stuff on NLP (natural language processing). Secondly, I make the statement Carl quotes just ONCE. Thirdly, Carl has carefully edited the quote. What I actually wrote was
"NLP has ... become what is probably the most comprehensive synthesis of modern psychological knowledge around today."
Note, not "is" but the qualified "***probably*** is", not ALL psychology but "modern psychology", and NOT "in the biz world" but the deliberately vague "around today" - because who knows when things will change, or whether there's a competitor already that I don't know about.
So, since Carl has obviously read at least that part of that book, why, like the editors of the Wiki article, is he indulging in wild and inaccurate generalisations?
"The books are just like the other nlp books; Completely without any realistic view of psychology, human nature, or work."
Actually, after taking a degree in social psychology I have spent rather more than a quarter of a century as a training and personnel manager, training consultant, training manager, business trainer and (for 8 of those years) tutor and deputy principal in a 6th form college.
Now, if Carl had said something like “in my opinion the books are ...” I might point out that I’ve read and reviewed well over 100 books on NLP, and none of them are “just like” my book, or "just like" each other. But I would also be able to agree that Carl is entitled to his opinion, no matter how misguided I may think it is. The article, likewise, fails time and again to distinguish between opinion and fact.
"He even said psychology is not science. Tell that to psychology students who measure people in studies."
I say it, and Michael Gazzaniga and many others say it. Having been one of those students, I stand by my claim. Part of the problem in Carl’s position is that he uses the label “psychology” as a gigantic generalisation. When I was at university there were four different branches of psychology in four different schools. IMO, of the four, only what was then called “experimental psychology” – which covered stuff like sticking probes into rats brains, which would now be more accurately described as neuropsychology – was susceptible to genuine “scientific” investigation.
"The link talks about doing good research and how to do it, and then comes back with stuff about science being inappropriate for testing nlp."
Yes, and I explain why. It seems *to me* that a further problem here is the assumption that NLP “ought” to be subject to scientific investigation if it is to be valid. To which I can only suggest that we prohibit all psycho-therapy until someone scientifically demonstrates the existence of the “id”, the “ego” and the “super ego” and explains exactly where they are located.
Like I say, this whole topic of NLP as a “pseudoscience” is a complete red herring.
"Its just a lot of confused and frustrated ranting because the results don't agree with nlpee claims."
On the contrary, I explain how, if KH and his associates had understood what they were doing, they would realise that they had, if anything, confirmed the claims of NLP. However, I put that forward as a highly qualified observation specifically BECAUSE - and here I would like to return to the question of "pseudo-science" – in the first place the experiment was a model of bad (ineffective) design, and secondly it is not possible IMO to perform psychology experiments, in the area that NLP occupies, which get consistent results. And replicatability is the key issue in turning a hypothesis into anything stronger, according to the scientific method. As a matter of interest I have discussed the experiments, by e-mail, with two of the three people concerned.
Likewise the Wiki article quotes all sorts of stuff about NLP being “pseudoscience” without bothering to explain what each referenced author means by “pseudoscience” and without addressing the fact that NLP has never claimed to be a “science” in the first place.
Hell Andy Bradbury. I have to say, you exhibit the most pseudoscientific thinking I have ever seen. You say: "For many people, one of the most attractive features of the genuine NLP techniques, is their essentially pragmatic nature. That is to say, the various techniques are only there because they have worked for someone at some time in the past, and not because someone has theorised that any particular technique ought to work. By the same token, it is recognised that no technique will work every time, or under all circumstances, or for everyone.
"On that basis, firstly it has to be said that this just one of many models in the NLP toolkit. Even if it turned out that the eye accessing cues model is entirely wrong (and there is no evidence to support that assertion), it really wouldn't affect the validity of any other model or technique, or of NLP itself."
This begs the question of what would falsify the validity of NLP? Apparently nothing can according to you. If NLP cannot be falsified then you have just placed it outside the realm of science into pseudoscience because to be scientific, an idea must be testable and falsifiable. According to what you state here, there is no way to do this because they can just come up with another "pragmatic" idea. However, it is testable, because it has been tested (with negative results).
Another big problem here is with the NLP "modeling" procedure itself. You generalize directly from observations without actually doing scientific studies using statistical methods to really see if you have "modeled" correctly. In the case of eye movements, studies showed that their observations did not stand up to the test of properly controlled research.
And yes, you do reverse the burden of proof. If you think this study was so flawed, this still doesn't address the issue of why NLP proponents have not done studies that they would consider fair tests and then submit them to peer reviewed journals.
There is also a dwelling on minutae that are irrelevant to the criticism of the study (e.g., saying that the author used the NLP jargon incorrectly in calling eye accessing cues a "state"). This is a tactic I've seen often used by proponents of pseudoscientific practices. In short, you are a pseudoscientific thinker. If it were up to you to write this article, you would probably end up convincing nobody but Tom Cruise (and the other NLP idiots who constantly try to use their rotten NLPeeing weaselyness to twist the facts to their map of unreality).RWilkinson 10:11, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Wilkinson See my "three propositions below." Invalidate any or all of those propositions and you effectively invalidate NLP.
Apart from that, as I understand it, you believe that the difference between "eye accessing cues" and "state" is "minutae."
This suggests to me that you have very little understanding of even the most basic concepts in NLP and on that basis, since I don't intend to try to bring you up to speed in this forum, I cannot answer you adequately - so in fairness to both of us this is all the answer I'm prepared to give.
Andy
Carl, firstly, thank you for your courteous communication.
Secondly, I'm afraid I do not accept the argument you put forward, because you are discussing the TECHNIQUES not NLP. You also treat the entire subject as though there were only two options: "science" and "pseudo-science." IMO there are very few things in the "real" world which can be divided into just two groups - and this isn't one of them. There are AT LEAST three groupings: "science," "pseudo-science," and "non-scientific." These are *my* definitions of the three groups:
"science" - the study of phenomena which can be investigated using the "scientific method"
"pseudo-science" - studies of, or reports on phenomena which **purport** to be scientific but which are actually either so badly carried out that they don't warrant the description "scientific," or which claim to be scientific but aren't actually using the "scientific method" in any recognisable form.
"non-scientific" - areas of activity and/or investigation where the "scientific method" is not a relevant item or where it *might* be applicable but isn't being used and no attempt is being made to claim that the activity or investigation is "scientific."
Now, if you were to claim that *some* people within the NLP community are making ludicrous claims about the "scientific" validity of their models then I would definitely agree. In fact another of the FAQs on my own website specifically addresses that kind of behaviour, explains why it's a load of rubbish - giving a specific very well-known example - and deprecates such behaviour as being likely to bring NLP itself into disrepute.
And that is exactly the point I am making below.
If we separate NLP from the techniques associated with NLP then we have, IMO, a genuine basis for substantial agreement.
Andy
There is a basic flaw in this comment Headley - you are NOT distinguishing between NLP and the techniques associated with NLP.
I am willing to bet that not a single scientist has actually stated that NLP is "pseudo-science" or "pseudo-scientific" - if they know what "NLP" is.
BUT,
I agree that there are numerous claims that one or other of the techniques associated with NLP don't qualify as "science" or "scientific." And in some cases I'd even agree with them ;-)
Andy
"Shaman, philosophers, and prophets alike have intuitively known and used the power of metaphor. From Plato's allegory of the cave right through to Valitaire's Zagdig, from the teaching of Jesus and Buddha to the teachings of Don Juan Matus, metaphor is ever present as a tool for changing ideas and effectiing behavior." (Richard Bandler, foreward - p.xi, Therapeutic Metaphor, David Gordon, 1978). It is quite obvious from this quote that Bandler uses Shamanism as a metaphor. --Comaze 03:29, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Hello Comaze. Sorry, here is some evidence for you. Bandler learned shamanism with many teachers and teaches it himself. It also appears in some of the literature. http://www.meta-nlp.co.uk/ http://www.meta-nlp.co.uk/shamanics.htm Regards.HeadleyDown 07:49, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Headley.D, Those URLs do not prove anything. In NLP, shamanism is a metaphor. It is that simple. --Comaze 01:05, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, it's woth noting that Bandler is "sharing his knowledge of shamanic states of consciousness". This is one reason people think the spiritual stuff is part of NLP. Of course, NLP as the study of subjective experience could have some good insight into patterns people subjectively experience as shamanic consciousness - but of course it's only a thing that's been modeled and is no more "NLP" than sports are NLP. GregA 01:59, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Hang on! Comaze, what is the supposed timeline for this arbitration business? Like, when did it start, what is supposed to go on, and when is the deadline etc? Also, when are they going to chuck you out for spending over a month deleting well researched facts and qualified points of view in favour of Bandler and Grinder doctrine:)? CheersHeadleyDown 14:46, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Hello all. I have added a crucial link to an experiential proponent of state change--Dave Barry. Have a nice weekend.HeadleyDown 14:58, 23 September 2005 (UTC).
Yes, a little humour also helps to make the article even more interesting. Actually, Barry's view is very refreshing and quite valid as a link. I have done quite a big tidyup. I will continue to NPOV the paras as I go along. I noticed that other outside editors are starting to tidy up grammar etc also and that's great.JPLogan 03:56, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
yeh its great to see it without all the hype and jargon. well done guys JC
Hello all. I have some suggestions, and others are welcome to contribute.
There have been actual theories or allusions to theories written in the NLP literature as can be seen from the page. I should say they can be used. Anyway, I'm going to work on balance for a while.HeadleyDown 05:28, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
Hi all editors. Re the first paragraph 'NLP involves the programming and reprogramming of engrams). I can find no reference to 'engrams', or re-programming engrams in any NLP literature. Even in the link you provide, the authors are discussing the work of neuroscientist Wilder Penfield, make no specific mention of engrams, and say the following regarding the idea 'His first conclusion was that each memory had a specific location. Current research would suggest this is not the case. The brain seems to be organized along functional lines rather than site specific lines. I do not think this claim is therefore warranted without further/stronger evidence. It is just an obvious attempt to further strengthen the spurious case that NLP is in some way associated with Scientology or Dianetics. Lee1 15:53, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
Hello Lee. Simply follow all the references and check them out. I have looked at all the engram literature on the article, and it is completely correct, and more is available for support. Really, if all you want to do is remove facts, you are in the wrong place. I suggest you see if you can improve the other version. As far as I have read from the references other people have contributed, NLP is strongly historically, and theoretically connected with the engram concept that is inextricably linked throughout the human potential movement, cybernetics of Maltz, Perl's promotions through Dianetics, Satir's notions of humanistic psychology, and the unconcious competence ideas that run all the way through NLP, including the theory articles that have been written. RegardsHeadleyDown 16:49, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
Hello GregA. Thanks. Making the article accurate and verifiable is important. All views can be represented, and as NPOV states, attribution to the people with those views is also important for making it a stated fact. The (Carroll 2005) ref needs updating to (Carroll 2003), which is a longer term solution because it is a book. It has more detail in the text etc. Pseudoscience is more about how knowledge is created: Detached principles or values without a clear theory base are the hallmarks of pseudoscience. If a person has a view, and that view is stated in a verifiable source, then it is valid according to NPOV even if the source includes that of another source. Remember there are differences in the text and information in each source. Garry Platt has a master's in education, and Todd Carroll has a PhD and teaches Logic & Critical Reasoning; Law, Justice, & Punishment at Sacremento university, and Critical Thinking About the Paranormal, his most recent university textbook is Becoming a Critical Thinker (2005). RegardsHeadleyDown 02:35, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Hi GregA. Yes I believe you understand. This is an indication of the breadth of wikipedia. A great deal of encyclopedias will only take the scientific view in matters of psychological explanation. Wikipedia is slightly less strict and will even take into account the pseudoscientific view, albeit at a lower priority and with the provision of a scientific conclusion. RegardsHeadleyDown 05:34, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Hi GregA. All I can say really is that someone's viewpoint, when properly referenced becomes fact, and that is NPOV.HeadleyDown 06:47, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes Greg. Its actually a good learning experience. Especially if you take a critical view of all of the different points of view.HeadleyDown 04:32, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Headings and such really only have to be logical and clear. The scientific viewpoint should really be placed throughout the article as it is mostly neutral statements of theory or statements of scientific findings. Perhaps overview could be changed to "conceptual overview" or something similar. If it were in the intro, it would make it too large.RegardsHeadleyDown 06:47, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
You have been working hard:) Its looking even better and I notice the language is even more NPOV. I made a few tidy ups, and I have some more scientific point of view that I can paste in as fact when I have the time. Ta!AliceDeGrey 07:26, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Hi Headley, Alice etc. In accordance with your preference for the opinion of scientists in line with NPOV, I thought you might be interested in this link to an article wtitten by a PhD physicist on NLP and Science http://www.mckergow.com/2003/index.jsp?lnk=503_3 (Lee1 20.50 28th Sept 2005)
Thanks Lee. Actually, I have this ref already. It agrees with the NLP view that nothing is objective, and no matter how much research you do, you will not find anything objective from people's perceptions. Of course there was a very funny reply to that article which basically said he was thinking of physics and the only objective thing to him would be dropping a heavy weight on his toe:) Empiricle studies into psychology take both subjective or perceptive measures (feelings and opinions) plus objective measures (results of success at persuasion, spelling, etc) and place them together with other studies for cross referencing and verification. But of course this also goes towards testing NLP. The books state that such and such will lead to success, and the tests follow the rules, and it turns out to be false. Pretty elementary stuff really.HeadleyDown 04:39, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Didn't expect you to agree,as it doesn't fit with your POV Headley old boy. Just pointing out that it meets your 'quotable' criterion ;-) Want to make the job easier when it comes to arbitration (Lee 7.49 29 Sept 2005)