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((WikiProject Food and drink|importance=Mid ))
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==England (reopened)==
''(Moved from up there ↑ somewhere)''
:I note that by changing 'Great Britain' and 'United Kingdom' to 'England' in this article I have inadvertently stumbled across an argument. But the facts are simple: Great Britain is not a country, it's an island. The United Kingdom is not a country, it's a sovereign state. To quote WP on UK, : "The UK consists of four constituent countries: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland." QED. Cooke (FRGS) [[User:Cooke|Cooke]] ([[User talk:Cooke|talk]]) 16:28, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
::I've changed it to UK – yes, GB is not a country, but the UK patently ''is'' a country. I'm not sure why it's important to have a 'country' anyway, since the infobox states "place of origin". Also, I'm not sure why you think the UK being a sovereign state would disqualify it from being in the infobox. [[User:Bretonbanquet|Bretonbanquet]] ([[User talk:Bretonbanquet|talk]]) 16:32, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
::(e/c) The UK ''is'' a country, by many definitions; England is also a country, by many definitions.  There is not one single definition of "country", as has been shown by innumerable discussions on many pages here in the past - there are many definitions of the word.  It makes perfect sense to say that the UK is a country consisting of four countries (or three countries and part of another country) - just as it makes perfect sense to say that the US is a [[sovereign state|state]] consisting of 50 [[U.S. state|state]]s.  So, it's perfectly acceptable to include ''either'' England ''or'' the UK in the infobox - but not Great Britain. Whether Cornwall is part of England is, of course, a whole different argument.  :-)  [[User:Ghmyrtle|Ghmyrtle]] ([[User talk:Ghmyrtle|talk]]) 16:40, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
:::Exactly. And while there's some apparent debate about whether Cornwall is part of England or not, there's no question that it's part of the UK. I suggest 'UK' causes fewer edit wars, and furthermore other parts of the UK, such as Wales, also have a long history of pasty-making. [[User:Bretonbanquet|Bretonbanquet]] ([[User talk:Bretonbanquet|talk]]) 16:44, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
:::::Hi Bretonbanquet. I've just been looking over this page and I greatly approve of your censure of ludicrous notions (imho) of two-course pasties and 'the right' way of crimping. But I disagree with you over this one. The UK is not a country - I've quoted WP to show this. England is. Sure, you could write, 'Valparaiso is a city in the Americas', but it's a lot more useful to say 'Valparaiso is a city in Chile'. Probably more people recognize 'England' than 'United Kingdom'. So what's your beef? Do you want, in all articles about kilts, and tartan, and haggis, and RLS, to remove 'Scotland' and insert 'United Kingdom'? How will that help? I don't understand your agenda. Are you a Cornish nationalist? I'm from Belfast, and I've always had an Irish passport, but for the past ten years or so Northern Ireland has been a country in the United Kingdom, whether I think that's what it should be or not. So please explain what sound reason you have for changing the helpful, correct and precise 'England' to the unhelpful, vague 'United Kingdom'? This is supposed to be an encycolpedia, not a soapbox.  [[User:Cooke|Cooke]] ([[User talk:Cooke|talk]]) 16:55, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
::::::Not answering for BB, but I expect that, like me, he's aware of a lot of past disquiet and toing-and-froing over whether it's acceptable or not to describe Cornwall, at least in cultural terms, as part of England. It's almost as debatable as whether it's acceptable to call Northern Ireland a "country". However, it's certainly true that Cornwall is not necessarily the only area that has a claim over pasties - they were widespread in England in past centuries.  It's equally true, as I said earlier, that it is absolutely fine and unarguably (I thought) correct to describe the UK as a country.  And please don't accuse anyone of having an "agenda" - it's unhelpful and simply provokes more heat than light.  [[User:Ghmyrtle|Ghmyrtle]] ([[User talk:Ghmyrtle|talk]]) 17:06, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
:::::::Agree 100% with BB and Ghmyrtle.  The UK is a country.  Best to read the whole [[United Kingdom]] article, viz, "Although the United Kingdom, as a sovereign state, is a country, England, Scotland, Wales and (more controversially) Northern Ireland are also referred to as 'countries', although they are not actual sovereign states."  [[User:Logical Cowboy|Logical Cowboy]] ([[User talk:Logical Cowboy|talk]]) 17:12, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
::::::::(e/c) Thanks for your comments, Cooke. Certainly the UK is a country – the second sentence of the UK wikipedia article states it, and I think one would have a very hard time trying to prove that the UK is not a country. Again, I'm not sure why that matters here anyway. As Ghmyrtle has said, it's an unfortunate fact that some terms cause more edit-warring than others, and that is a consideration here for those of us who have to clean up the mess.
::::::::I don't have any kind of agenda, and you'll see around Wikipedia that I have argued for and against the use of the various terms to describe Cornwall/England/UK/GB etc. You say 'England' is "helpful, correct and precise", and 'UK' is not – that's your opinion, and I'm sure you'll accept that others feel differently. My main issue with this particular infobox is not whether Cornwall is part of England or the UK or whatever – the issue is ''where pasties come from''. That fact is not easily pinned down. While Cornwall may be closely associated with the pasty, pasty-making has existed in all parts of the UK for an extremely long time. If its not acceptable to consider Cornwall the place of origin of the pasty (and I am OK with that), then it has to be a wider area than simply England. If people agree that it's only Cornwall that we're talking about, then we can just put 'Cornwall', but it's a stretch to say that Cornwall ''invented'' the pasty, and that also causes some edit-warring. [[User:Bretonbanquet|Bretonbanquet]] ([[User talk:Bretonbanquet|talk]]) 17:15, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::Ok breton. I can't be bothered, frankly. I've more important things to do. I accept your point the the pasty comes from a variety of places - it's a good  point. But the article as it stands is misleading and confusing to a non-british readership (the vast majority). If you are determined to keep it that way, that's up to you. [[User:Cooke|Cooke]] ([[User talk:Cooke|talk]]) 17:24, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::If it's confusing to people who don't know what the UK is, then it's not the job of Wikipedia editors to cater for that, no matter where they come from. I do object though, to the implication that I am perpetuating an inferior version of this article (specifically through some kind of agenda), and it might be best that you don't repeat it. [[User:Bretonbanquet|Bretonbanquet]] ([[User talk:Bretonbanquet|talk]]) 17:32, 4 February 2013 (UTC)\

:::::::::::That sounds like a threat, breton. I notice that neither you nor anyone else have addressed, much less answered, my crucial point, which I'll repeat: "Sure, you could write, 'Valparaiso is a city in the Americas', but it's a lot more useful to say 'Valparaiso is a city in Chile'. ... Do you want, in all articles about kilts, and tartan, and haggis, and RLS, to remove 'Scotland' and insert 'United Kingdom'? How will that help?"  I'd be very happy if the article said 'various parts of the west of England and Wales, particularly associated with the counties of Cornwall, Merionethshire and Fife..." or whatever. Actually, pasties are also made - you must know this BB - around Ploubain and Plougrescant in Brittany. There was an article about this in PPC in the fifties. So maybe we should put "Western Europe"? At least we can all agree on that! [[User:Cooke|Cooke]] ([[User talk:Cooke|talk]]) 18:05, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

::::::::::::Well, don't forget to [[WP:AGF|assume good faith]]. I haven't addressed your Valparaiso example because it misses the point. Whether Cornwall is in England or not is irrelevant. Pasties don't just come from Cornwall, and they don't just come from England. If haggis came from other parts of the UK, your example might be a similar one to this. As I say, if it can be proven that pasties definitely originated in Cornwall, then we can just put 'Cornwall'. But I suspect we can't verify that. I suspect it isn't even true. If you want to open up the infobox 'place of origin' field to places outside the UK, then maybe we can – let's see if anyone agrees, but remember that the infobox aims for generality. Personally, I'd prefer the field didn't exist. [[User:Bretonbanquet|Bretonbanquet]] ([[User talk:Bretonbanquet|talk]]) 18:18, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

== Oggy oggy oggy... ==

Just had to say - the bit in the article about bal maidens standing at the top of the mineshaft calling "Oggy oggy oggy" to which the miners replied "oi oi oi" as they came to collect the pasties dropped down to them by the women - this is a joke right?  It's so ludicrous I can't believe someone would even write it... ([[User:Maryjane22|Maryjane22]] ([[User talk:Maryjane22|talk]]))  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment added 15:30, 17 April 2013 (UTC)</span><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:It comes from [http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/time-for-aussies-to-throw-bogan-chant-out/story-e6frfq80-1225943556735 this Australian newspaper article], so I'll tag it with a dubious source tag for the moment, and see if anyone comes up with a better source for the claim - if not, it can be removed.  [[User:Ghmyrtle|Ghmyrtle]] ([[User talk:Ghmyrtle|talk]]) 15:42, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
What I meant was that mineshafts were/are hundreds and sometimes thousands of feet deep.  The deepest, Robinson's Shaft at Dolcoath in Camborne, was 3300ft deep.  After descending, miners would walk sometimes long distances to get to their area of work; my point is that once you were down there, you could hear no noise from the surface and also, anything thrown down the shaft would be smashed to pieces against the walls long before it hit the bottom.  To be fair, the article you cite does not mention pasties being thrown down shafts, it refers to the call of travelling pasty sellers.  I don't know whether such sellers ever existed, but I think that the word 'oggy' is of fairly recent usage in Cornwall and on the whole, disliked by Cornish people.  I never heard my parents or grandparents use the word and I would not say that it is generally used even now, usually it is visitors and people who have moved from elsewhere to live in Cornwall who say 'oggy'.  In the article, there is a reference to the song by Cyril Tawney about a pasty seller; Cyril was a Devon man, so perhaps 'oggy' is a Devon word which has crept over the border.  One last thing, pasties now seem to have become associated almost entirely with miners, as if they were exclusively created for and used by them.  The pasty was originally (and still is of course) the perfect 'packed lunch' and was eaten by farm workers, clay workers and all types of working people (the only exception being apparently, fishermen, who considered it unlucky to take a pasty on board boat).  School children would take pasties to school and if they were lucky, the pasties would be warmed up on the school's iron stove so that could have them hot for dinner.  My father used to say that the smell of the pasties warming would distract from his lessons - not that that was very difficult I gather!  Having said that, a cold pasty is still a delicious thing; if a pasty could not be finished when hot, it would be saved for supper and enjoyed cold.  ([[User:Maryjane22|Maryjane22]] ([[User talk:Maryjane22|talk]]) 09:08, 18 April 2013 (UTC))
:I agree with every word of that, and I'll add that this article ''used'' to claim that pasties had hard pastry so they could withstand being thrown down mineshafts – till I took it out. There's a terrible tendency for people to add urban myths and old wives' tales to this article, and worse, they're often backed up by plausible sources. [[User:Bretonbanquet|Bretonbanquet]] ([[User talk:Bretonbanquet|talk]]) 17:43, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
This is the problem.  It is not enough to quote an article from a newspaper or magazine or other online site and present it as a fact.  Hardly ever do the original articles cite properly detailed and authenticated sources and yet they are repeated as if they were gospel.  For example, how do we know that miners held their pasty by the crimp?  I've seen several old photos of miners underground eating their pasties 'end to end', held in paper or a piece of cloth, but not even one of anyone holding it by the crimp.  Again, an online Cornish-English dictionary gives the meaning of "hogan" as "hawthorn" and gives "pasti" for "pasty"; this is similar to the Welsh "pastai", meaning "pie or pasty".  I just mean that if a statement cannot be properly and reliably referenced and sourced, then it probably is as Bretonbanquet says, an urban myth.  There is a relevant quote in this week's Radio Times p9; "Senator Daniel Moynihan once told Americans that they were entitled to their own opinions, but not to their own facts".  I'm not sure why people want to create theories and stories about the pasty, it's just an item of food.  Is there any other foodstuff anywhere in the world to have been the subject of so much myth and legend?  ([[User:Maryjane22|Maryjane22]] ([[User talk:Maryjane22|talk]]) 11:00, 24 April 2013 (UTC))

I vaguely remember a reference to "Oggie" being naval slang for a pasty in a Douglas Reeman book.  That would be a long time before there were all intarwebs and stuff.

But I too have heard the salesman theory of the chant - it enables the seller & buyer to home in on each other in narrow city streets.

The dropping down a mineshaft idea is dumb.  Even before the obsession with risk assessment the idea that there'd a be a hole in the ground you could just walk up to is ludicrous.  Anyone who's actually seen a mine would know that you can't even see the shaft - there's all the winding gear on top of it.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/109.128.172.225|109.128.172.225]] ([[User talk:109.128.172.225|talk]]) 13:04, 26 July 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Categories. ==

Are the amount of categories this article is in a bit overkill?--[[User:Porthenys|Porthenys]] ([[User talk:Porthenys|talk]]) 17:00, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
::I tend to agree; the article makes little or no reference to the United States, Australia or New Zealand, yet they account for more than half the categories.'''[[User:PacificBoy|<span style="color:SkyBlue;">Pac</span><span style="color:LightPink;">if</span><span style="color:Orchid;">ic</span><span style="color:MediumOrchid;">Bo</span><span style="color:Indigo;">y</span>]]''' 04:56, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

== Opening line ==

I disagree that 'pasty' and 'Cornish pasty' are synonymous, especially in the UK.  I've always thought that the latter is a variety of the former, made with specific ingredients.  A cheese and onion pasty isn't a Cornish pasty but one made with beef and diced veg usually is, regardless of where they're made. '''[[User:VEO15|<span style="color:red;">VEO</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:VEO15|<span style="color:black;">one</span>]][[Special:Contributions/VEO15|<span style="color:blue;">five</span>]]</sup>''' 22:50, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

:They are, of course, synonymous in Cornwall. Also, one could argue that the pasty originated in Cornwall, and that all other types of pasty are varieties of the original "Cornish" pasty. It would be hard to verify that one preceeded the other. That said, I'm sure the beef/veg version predates the cheese and onion version. [[User:Bretonbanquet|Bretonbanquet]] ([[User talk:Bretonbanquet|talk]]) 23:07, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

::I was using cheese and onion as an example, my point is that pasties may originate in Cornwall but they aren't all considered to be the traditional Cornish variety.  The article does have its own section on what most strictly consider to be a Cornish pasty; not just any old filling wrapped in pastry. '''[[User:VEO15|<span style="color:red;">VEO</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:VEO15|<span style="color:black;">one</span>]][[Special:Contributions/VEO15|<span style="color:blue;">five</span>]]</sup>''' 03:01, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

:::It's not true either that the only pasties served in Cornwall are meat and veg pasties - there are plenty of veggie pasties, crab pasties, etc. etc. available there.   How about: "A pasty... is a baked pastry with a savoury filling, traditionally associated with Cornwall.  It is made by placing uncooked filling &mdash; typically and traditionally of meat and vegetables though many varieties are now widely available &mdash; on a flat pastry circle and folding it to wrap the filling, crimping the edge to form a seal..... "  [[User:Ghmyrtle|Ghmyrtle]] ([[User talk:Ghmyrtle|talk]]) 08:58, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

I would suggest that an item of food made by putting meat, fish, vegetables or fruit etc on a piece of pastry, sealing it and then cooking it by one or another means is an ancient and international method of preparing a conveniently portable meal.  We know that such meals have been prepared and eaten in the UK for centuries and have been called pasties, turnovers and a dozen other things for all I know.  In the days when working class families ate only what was available and what they could afford, it's probably safe to say that almost anything would have been used to make pies, pasties or turnovers.  Cornwall would have been no different.  I have an old cookbook of my mother's, produced locally by a Cornish W.I. which gives recipes for pasties using rabbit, fish, pork or bacon.  The families of miners, farmers, clay workers, fishermen etc were poor; pasties were working men's food and wives and mothers, like working class women everywhere, used what they could to provide good, nourishing food.  In those days, Cornwall was a very poor and remote county, so maybe Cornish women had to be even more resourceful; it was said that the Devil would never cross the Tamar into Cornwll for fear that he would be put into a pasty!  At some point (and I would suggest that it was relatively recently, maybe the early nineteenth century?) what is now referred to as a Cornish pasty became the default recipe and was subsequently taken by Cornish miners to other parts of the world.  It is true that the Cornish do not refer to a pasty as a Cornish pasty (anymore than they refer to it as an 'oggy'), it's just a pasty.  If you are going to buy a veggie or a cheese pasty, you'd call it that.  To the Cornish, a pasty is made with raw beef, potatoes and onion, with a bit of turnip (swede to the non-Cornish)if you like it.  Within families, other things may be added or left out for individual preferences - my uncle liked a bit of chopped up kidney in his pasty - and that's why an initial may be put on the pasty so that each family member gets the one meant for him or her.  I don't think we can claim that the pasty originated in Cornwall, but the Cornish pasty, with raw beef and vegetables, obviously did.  We also should remember that the shop pasties bought in their millions by tourists come in infinite varieties, but in Cornish homes, only the traditional recipe is made, variously tweaked for individual family members as I have described.  If a Cornish woman offers to make you a pasty, that's what you'll get.  I made my first pasty when I was seven years old, at my mother's kitchen table and since then, I must have made thousands!  Generally, pasties were made once a week for the midday meal, often on a Saturday and many Cornish families still adhere to this tradition.  I still do, although these days there's usually only me to eat it! ([[User:Maryjane22|Maryjane22]] ([[User talk:Maryjane22|talk]]) 09:20, 6 July 2013 (UTC))
:@Maryjane22.  That's very interesting.  However, please be aware that these pages are ''not'' a forum for discussing interesting thoughts.  They are a place to discuss improvements to the article, and those improvements should be based on [[WP:RS|reliable sources]], rather than suggestions or personal opinions.  [[User:Ghmyrtle|Ghmyrtle]] ([[User talk:Ghmyrtle|talk]]) 09:42, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
Thank you.  I had only intended to contribute towards the discussion; much of what we now take as 'fact' about the humble pasty is actually based on conjecture and guesswork rather than 'reliable sources'.  I now feel appropriately patronised.([[User:Maryjane22|Maryjane22]] ([[User talk:Maryjane22|talk]]) 10:47, 6 July 2013 (UTC))

Well said Maryjane22! The article puts far too much emphasis on the 'Cornish' over the 'pasty' - being half Cornish and half Devon i just dont see why the article is so exclusive - having made them in London (to the traditional Cornish/Devon recipe) i am inundated with comments from my European colleagues as to how they have them too - but they call them 'X' or 'Y' - similar dishes exist in Spain (empanada - different fillings but look identical) , Sicily & Italy (separately) and Poland (made with lamb i believe- dont remember the name) not to mention the various regional British versions ( Bridie Bedfordshire Clanger etc)  <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Nenniu|Nenniu]] ([[User talk:Nenniu|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Nenniu|contribs]]) 20:23, 18 February 2014 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::All of which a) are not pasties, and b) have their own articles. If this article is "exclusive", it's because it's strictly about the pasty, not any of the other variants. [[User:Bretonbanquet|Bretonbanquet]] ([[User talk:Bretonbanquet|talk]]) 20:47, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
:::See also [[Pasty#See also|See also]].  [[User:Ghmyrtle|Ghmyrtle]] ([[User talk:Ghmyrtle|talk]]) 22:02, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Came here to say something similar, the article reads like an attempt to annex "pasty" to mean a Cornish Pasty. Viewed through the lens of controversy surrounding the geographic protection of the "Cornish Pasty" it seems blatantly revisionist. There is even a reference to an "official pasty" under variations (which is unsurprisingly of the Cornish variety.)

The vast majority of pasties in the UK are not Cornish, and are visually and culinarily distinct from Cornish pasties. No one would consider it acceptable to re-write the article on Cheese to refer specifically to Cheddar with only a begrudging footnote to acknowledge plethora of alternatives. Serious NPOV issues IMHO --[[Special:Contributions/86.140.100.93|86.140.100.93]] ([[User talk:86.140.100.93|talk]]) 12:26, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

:I've changed "official pasty" to "officially protected Cornish pasty", for clarification.  I have some sympathy with your opinion, but it needs [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] about non-Cornish pasties before anything similar can be included in the article, I think.  [[User:Ghmyrtle|Ghmyrtle]] ([[User talk:Ghmyrtle|talk]]) 12:38, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

== Useful sources of information ==

Having looked at the list of references at the end of the article, it seems that not all of them are as trustworthy as might be hoped. A good number, especially newspaper and magazine articles from both the UK and abroad, seem to do little more than perpetuate the misinformation currently presented as fact about the pasty and its origins.  For serious students of the history of Cornish food, I thought it would be useful to suggest two very valuable sources of information:

WRIGHT, Mary, 'Cornish Treats' (Alison Hodge, 1986)

HAMILTON JENKIN, A.K., 'Cornwall and its People' (first published J M Dent 1945).  There is a whole chapter entitled 'Food - Ordinary and Extraordinary.'

The latter title is a composite work of three titles originally published separately and is an invaluable source of information for anyone keen to know more about the true history of Cornwall and the Cornish.  Both the titles I have listed are unfortunately out of print but are available from various online booksellers etc.  I hope that this information will prove to be of use to interested parties.  ([[User:Primrosewoods|Primrosewoods]] ([[User talk:Primrosewoods|talk]]) 14:14, 14 March 2014 (UTC))

== Ketchup! ==

How do I not see any mention of ketchup in this article?  I eat pasties with my grandma from the U.P. (Michigan's Upper Peninsula) and it's practically unheard of to eat these things without ketchup!  <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Sloth monkey |Sloth monkey ]] ([[User talk:Sloth monkey |talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sloth monkey |contribs]]) 07:38, 8 April 2014‎ </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
:Find a source that says that, please...   Here in the UK, eating a good pasty with ketchup would be considered gross barbarism.  [[User:Ghmyrtle|Ghmyrtle]] ([[User talk:Ghmyrtle|talk]]) 07:50, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
::We did it as kids...--[[User:Somchai Sun|Somchai Sun]] ([[User talk:Somchai Sun|talk]]) 11:14, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
They do shocking things to pastys in the states- the man v food episide featuring butte pastys had me speechless: they were upside down meat pies with chilli con carne and processed cheese dolloped on top!  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/122.60.209.146|122.60.209.146]] ([[User talk:122.60.209.146|talk]]) 11:24, 15 September 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Peter Brears ==

Brears' comments on the origins of the pasty have been widely reported in reliable sources - [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34132576], [http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/news/cornish-pasty-was-invented-by-cookery-teachers-in-london-10478965.html], [http://www.westerndailypress.co.uk/Cornish-pasty-invented-London-says-food-historian/story-27704093-detail/story.html], [http://www.cornishman.co.uk/Food-historian-says-Cornish-did-invent-Cornish/story-27700083-detail/story.html], [http://www.itv.com/news/london/2015-09-03/historian-claims-cornish-pasties-were-invented-in-london/], etc.  Brears is a respected food historian with many publications - [http://www.amazon.co.uk/Books-Peter-Brears/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=n%3A266239%2Cp_27%3APeter%20Brears] - and is, for example, cited 10 times in the ''[https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=bIIeBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA331&lpg=PA331&dq=%22peter+brears%22+oxford&source=bl&ots=3psCmgAQod&sig=32kv7NM6KtHhUS9_w0OYqMuW8BA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEwQ6AEwCGoVChMI2OaNk8fkxwIV5ZbbCh3vDADg#v=onepage&q=%22peter%20brears%22&f=false Oxford Companion to Food]''.  So, his comments should be mentioned in this article.  [[User:Ghmyrtle|Ghmyrtle]] ([[User talk:Ghmyrtle|talk]]) 08:59, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

* Is this the same 'Historian' who claims that haggis was invented in England?, in this article,  http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/heritage/haggis-is-from-england-historian-claims-1-2972550 He obviously knows how to publicise his various books. [[User:Talskiddy|Talskiddy]] ([[User talk:Talskiddy|talk]])
::I'm sure he does.  So do most published writers.  That doesn't mean we shouldn't mention him.  [[User:Ghmyrtle|Ghmyrtle]] ([[User talk:Ghmyrtle|talk]]) 09:56, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
:::I'd suggest that if he's a reliable source we should find out and report exactly what he himself has said, not rely on the press trying to make a story out of it again. From the ''Cornishman'' article, the interesting bit appears to be the claim that the term "Cornish pasty" was first used to refer to a small savoury nibble in the 1870s. We don't have a derivation for that term in the article. The earliest reference to it given by the [[OED]] is from [[Notes and Queries]] dated 1877 –  "The Cornish pasty baked without a dish" – which may lend some credence. I think if nothing else, the mention should be moved into the "Cornish pasty" section. &nbsp;—[[User:Smalljim|S<small>MALL</small>]][[User talk:Smalljim#top|<small>JIM</small>]]&nbsp; 10:50, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
:::Actually, a few minutes with Google Books indicates that if he has been reported correctly then he's not a very good historian. There are several references to "Cornish pasty" in a Cornish context that were published before the 1870s, e.g. [https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=_I4bAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA329 this] from ''Archaeologia Cambrensis'' of 1862 and [https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8pZfAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA277 this] from Fraser's Magazine in 1867. &nbsp;—[[User:Smalljim|S<small>MALL</small>]][[User talk:Smalljim#top|<small>JIM</small>]]&nbsp; 12:26, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
::::It would be a good idea to add those sources to the article, and only after that to mention Brears' comments.  "... .Despite earlier evidence, Brears claimed in 2015 that...", etc.   I still think his comments are worth mentioning - but, if we can imply that he may be wrong, so much the better.  [[User:Ghmyrtle|Ghmyrtle]] ([[User talk:Ghmyrtle|talk]]) 13:52, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

:::::[[User:Ghmyrtle|Ghmyrtle]], the trouble I'm having with retaining the Brears stuff is that I find it quite hard to believe that a food historian with 27 published books would make a claim that's so obviously false. That makes me think that what he ''really'' said  - or implied - is not quite what's been reported. But I'm not going to pay the £7 + p&p to buy a copy of "Petits Propos Culinaires" to check!
:::::I've sidestepped the issue by rewording the start of the Cornish pasty section, and just included Brears as a ref together with another one I found from Phyllis Browne in the ''Newcastle Weekly Courant'' of 4 Oct 1890 (it's available free online with a UK library card, through Gale). Although Phyllis doesn't seem to be too sure what she's writing about, she does point out the difference between the "true Cornish pasty" and the "much-despised Cookery School recipe", which bears out some of what Brears says. Hope you think this is a reasonable compromise. &nbsp;—[[User:Smalljim|S<small>MALL</small>]][[User talk:Smalljim#top|<small>JIM</small>]]&nbsp; 16:10, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
::::::That looks OK to me, except that I've reverted your reintroduction of the name England - a point that has been discussed numerous times on numerous talk pages.  The argument is that, if we say Cornwall is in England, we can't also say that the pasty is the "national dish" of Cornwall.   [[User:Ghmyrtle|Ghmyrtle]] ([[User talk:Ghmyrtle|talk]]) 18:45, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
::::::: If you read Brears comments, he appears to be playing 'Devils Advocate' a little. He also seems to take umbrage with the decision to give the Cornish pasty protected status. Hes quite happy to claim Yorkshire puddings for his home county, despite there being little evidence to support this theory. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/11041921/The-Kitchen-Thinker-the-history-of-Yorkshire-pudding.html. Also I cant find anywhere in his bio that states where he studied 'History'.  [[User:Talskiddy|Talskiddy]] ([[User talk:Talskiddy|talk]]) 07:03, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
::::::::If someone is routinely described as a "historian" in reliable sources, we go with that term - it's not up to us to research their academic credentials in detail.  [[User:Ghmyrtle|Ghmyrtle]] ([[User talk:Ghmyrtle|talk]]) 08:15, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

== National dish ==

Just putting this heading up in case the IP who has been removing the term "national dish" wants to engage in any discussion.  That's what numerous sources call it, and the term "nation" has many meanings.   [[User:Ghmyrtle|Ghmyrtle]] ([[User talk:Ghmyrtle|talk]]) 12:48, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
: I'm with the vandal on that particular point, it's just plain incorrect to refer to Cornwall as a nation, it is also non-neutral which is against policy. I'm tired of this article being used to push Cornish nationalist viewpoints, this is unacceptable on Wikipedia. I have clarified in the text that Cornish nationalists refer to it as the national dish, which is a verifiable fact, but I'm still not happy with this text and may revisit it later... &mdash;[[User:David Johnson|David Johnson]] ([[User_talk:David_Johnson|'''T''']]|[[Special:Contributions/David_Johnson|'''C''']]) 13:10, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
::You seem to have a very certain opinion on the meanings of the words "[[nation]]" and "[[country]]" - neither of which ''necessarily'' equate to "[[sovereign state]]" - and also to be certain about the motives of those writers of the sources referenced in the article which unequivocally refer to the pasty as Cornwall's "national dish".  Unless you can come up with reliable sources that explicitly state that the pasty is ''not'' a national dish, your opinions may not carry as much weight as you hope.  [[User:Ghmyrtle|Ghmyrtle]] ([[User talk:Ghmyrtle|talk]]) 20:42, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

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== The origin of pasties (in addition to pusties) may originally be from the pasticiotto pastry of Italy ==

I recently saw a printed ad for apple pie and pumpkin "pusties" from Caruso's bakery in Utica, NY. I'm from MI originally, where pasties (versus pusties) are well known meat pies of upstate tourism.  In Wikipedia, "Pusty" redirects you to Pasticiotto (pastry),<ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasticciotto</ref> while the Wikipedia Pasty article says, "Despite the modern pasty's strong association with Cornwall (U.K.), its exact origins are unclear."<ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasty</ref>  I'm betting that the folks of Cornwall, England may have also used/modified the pasticiotti pastry for a meat pie versus a fruit pie (pusty).  Abbreviating it as "pasti" would explain the name "pasties" (pronounced with a short A) that we've always known them by in Michigan--an even closer cognate than the "pusties" of Utica, NY.  (There is also a plural form, "pasticiotti".)
— [[User:Juliekadams|Juliekadams]] ([[User talk:Juliekadams|talk]]) 23:23, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

((reflist-talk))

== Joan of Kent  ==

In the picture at our [[Joan of Kent]] article, she’s holding what looks like a Cornish pasty. Is that what it is? [[User:Overlordnat1|Overlordnat1]] ([[User talk:Overlordnat1|talk]]) 23:36, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

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