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Reviewer: Sturmvogel 66 (talk · contribs) 15:25, 2 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]


I will get to this shortly.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:25, 2 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This is a lengthy article, so I will be working my way through it in sections.

I've reviewed all of the images used and have updated tags as needed and nominated several for deletion as they generally lack publication information which would allow us to determine whether they're still in copyright.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 20:15, 6 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
First, thank you for taking the time to review the article! I have replied to the deletion request for the Romanian Front map and added the source and date when it was published for Bert Hall and Nieuport 11. Any other problems regarding the copyright of photographs? Alin2808 (talk) 20:44, 6 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Excellent! Thanks for the quick response. You've fully satisfied me on the Bert Hall photo, although you should replace the generic PD-old tag with a more specific PD-France tag. There were several others that I listed for deletion, although I don't remember which ones. Just click on the images and then go to their Commons page to see any deletion noms.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 21:33, 6 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Actually, Hall's book was published in New York, so PD-US would work better. Or I could just keep the PD-1926, what do you think? And I think the only other image was the Battle of Bender diorama (unless I missed one), and I've just replied to that page as well. Alin2808 (talk) 00:06, 7 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Good point about Hall's book, PD-1923 would be just fine. I'll check out the diorama's discussion page.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 16:33, 8 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Alright, kept only PD-1923 for the Bert Hall photo. The copyright status of the Romanian Front map has been cleared if you check the deletion request page. As for the diorama photo, we need someone to clear that one as well, like for the Romanian Front map. Alin2808 (talk) 19:51, 8 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
OK--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 05:21, 10 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

So let's get this show on the road:

- Yes, aerostation as in the branch of the military that operated lighter-than-air ships. Found these two definitions for the word in English: this and this so I thought that it is somewhat known. Since it's not exactly a word in English, what should I replace it with? Would "the balloon branch" work better?
I've never seen aerostation used before, but I'm not surprised that somebody used it somewhere before. I suppose balloon branch could work, although it's an uncommon term. I almost prefer heavier- and lighter-than-air branches for the symmetry, but either could do.
I went for "the balloon branch", so I could replace "aerostation" with "balloon" in other cases like "aerostation units", "aerostation companies" etc.
 Done.
 Done.
 Done - Removed all aircraft numbers.
 Done.
- With 19 airplanes in 1913, I wouldn't say that's a small number of aircraft, so I just removed the number as suggested. However, I used the "Limited by the few aircraft it had available" line for the start of WWI, as 44 aircraft at that time was indeed a limited number.
Works for me.
 Done - You'll probably find this kind of awkward sentences in the article again... sorry.
Don't be. Your English is better than some native speakers that I've reviewed in the past.
 Done - I removed that last paragraph as it only talked about aircraft numbers. I don't think it was needed anyways as the numbers are presented throughout the article.
 Done - I've added the equivalent to the Romanian rank of "Sublocotenent" and the abbreviation in parentheses as "Second Lieutenant - Slt.", I hope it's good this way. I've also replaced the ranks with their abbreviations in the article. If I missed some then I'll make sure to edit those as well. Also, I'm not sure what equivalent I should use for the rank of "Plutonier", the NATO equivalent is OR-7 and that would be the Sergeant First Class in the US and the Staff Sergeant in the UK.
Either would do, just be consistent by picking one country's ranks throughout.
Went for the US equivalent. It seems that Staff Sergeant being equivalent to OR-7 is only for the UK. The rank appears to be lower for other countries that have it.
 Done - Also added links to hydrogen balloon and captive balloon.
<Homer Simpson voice: Links good!>
=)
- As in the type of aircraft manufactured in numbers (serial production). I was thinking of using the term "mass-produced" but I don't think that would work for only 6 airplanes. I could replace it with "license-built" if that sounds better.
I think license-built does work better as I think that readers have already figured out that the state of aircraft manufacturing in Romania before the war was pretty primitive.
 Done.
- The Air Leage was a civillian organization that Bibescu formed in order to help the aviation by raising funds and buying airplanes (both for its school and the military). Though it was a civillian organization, it also provided training for military pilots with its piloting school. In fact, from 1915, the Air League took over all pilot and observer training until 1916 when it had to be evacuated and reorganized in Moldavia (the pilot school later moved to Odessa). After the war, the Air League became the Royal Aeroclub of Romania (today's Aeroclub of Romania). This (as in the situation of the flight schools) is something I didn't expand on and I should probably add to the article. Alin2808 (talk) 02:28, 13 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yeah, but be careful to avoid going into too much detail, as this is already pretty long.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 13:19, 13 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
 Done - expanded on the situation of the flights schools and the role of the Air League in the early aviation years of Romania. I don't think I went into too much detail. Alin2808 (talk) 15:30, 13 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- No, I mean just mobilized, as in preparing for attack. If you check the Second Balkan war article, it is mentioned that Romania mobilized on 5 July and declared war on 10 July. This also means that the date of 22 June is given in the old calendar, I'll have to add that. Problem is that the source sometimes mentions the old dates, sometimes the new ones and sometimes it provides both. Now, I'll have see if I can find what dates are given in the old calendar and which ones are in the new. Maybe I should add some note saying that the dates might not all be in the modern calendar?
Best to be consistent throughout the article, so I'd suggest giving both dates all the time. Most readers aren't going to be familiar with that war, so provide the date of the actual declaration of war.
Done with the declaration of war. I also added a link to the "campaign" directly to the Romanian intervention in the Second Balkan War article. And yeah, I will see what I can do with the dates. Problem is the sources aren't always clear about what date is in which calendar. I'd assume the dates, or at least most dates, are given in the new calendar unless pointed out.
 Done - removed the years where not necessary. At least in most places. If I missed any, I'll remove those as well. I also removed some of the mentioned hours (only left the ones in quotes and before a quotes) as I don't think those are important.
 Done - left "Romanian aviation" when it refers to the general aviation and not to the unit. Also used "Romanian military aviation" in some cases.
It does get complicated once the French arrive and take charge.
 Done - thought it would be useful to see the pilots that will be mentioned again in the article (as commanders and such).
I know, but remember summary style. This article is at the highest level of coverage for the RAC and its predecessors and such details as pilot's names and commanders of subordinate units are better saved for daughter articles like Romanian aviation in the Second Balkan War and World War I. Generally, the only names mentioned herein should be politicians, rulers, commanders of the RAC and (sometimes) their deputies. It's always a struggle to find the right level of coverage for these types of articles. Over the years I've learned that less is best for high-level articles like this and you can use all the details that you've uncovered in your research in articles that are more highly focused on individual topics like the examples that I gave earlier.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 02:36, 27 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Alright, then perhaps I could move the details to the List of Romanian Air Force units/WW1 and add a link to that article in the see also section. If so what details should I keep in this article? Should I keep the headquarters of each group and the army it was assigned to or should I remove those as well?
I'd move the details to the separate list. You can keep the headquarters info or just summarize it by saying that each Army was assigned a grupul in support, your call.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:27, 31 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
 Done - Moved the detailed lists to the dedicated article. I only left the assigned army, as I feel like mentioning the army is important to know where each group was assigned. The headquarters can be seen in the group names.
 Done.
 Done.
- I do think that the commanders should be mentioned where known.
-Remember summary--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:27, 31 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- Moved the commanders to the list article
- It references how Vlaicu wanted to cross the Carpathians in 1913 but died while attempting it. I could remove it if it's not appropriate for the article, but since Vlaicu was important for the Romanian early aviation I think it should stay.
Either remove it as it should be saved for an article about the early days of Romanian aviation, both military and civilian, with coverage of Romanian aircraft designs and designers (my preference). Or tell the reader about Vlaicu's dream; don't spring it on the reader with no warning.
Moved it to the Aviation in Romania article. There's so much wrong information there... after finishing with the review of this article I'll have to go and edit it.
 Done - also did this with the other sections.
 Done.
- Removed the list of squadrons commanded by French officers. However, I do think it is important to mention where the flight schools were located.
Why is that important?
I mentioned the location of the flight schools before (that being Cotroceni and Băneasa, eventually the pilot and observer training was taken over by the Băneasa school). And after Germany occupied Bucharest, the reader should know that the flight schools were moved.
I still think that it's excessive detail.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:27, 31 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I can remove it, but I feel like the reader should know that the flight schools were relocated. Maybe I should remove the locations and just mention that the flight schools were moved from Bucharest?
- The source isn't clear about it, though it does seem that some observers were killed as well. The pilots lost in training flights are separate. Should I instead write it as "12 aircraft and 14 pilots and observers were lost in combat and training missions"? Because it's unclear. Alin2808 (talk) 19:38, 26 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Clarify it by saying that the 12 died in combat, plus two in training and that the numbers of other aircrewmen lost is unknown.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 02:36, 27 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
 Done. Alin2808 (talk) 09:36, 27 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Break inserted so I don't have to scroll down so much

 Done - can you check if the explanation for the RGA is good enough?
 Done.
- Mentioned the 25 May mission since I wrote about "From May onwards, the aviation started night bombings..." and thought it would be good to give an example of such mission.
-Delete the names of the air crewmen involved. I've tweaked the language a little to save time. Revert if you prefer.
 Done - moved the details about the offensive to the battle article itself.
- Are there too many details with the August actions?
-Yes. Summarize them more by saying the F.4 flew bombing missions to supplement the Romanian artillery while N.11 and N.3 defended the Romanian troops... and then going into the formation of Fliegerdetachment Nikitsch.
- Fliegerdetachement Nikitsch was a detachment as the name suggests, and it was assigned to a company ("fliegerkompanie"). So that's why I think the company should be mentioned as well, wrote it with the full name instead of the shortened "Flik".
- "The commands of the 1st and 2nd Romanian army benefited fully from the contribution of the 12 squadrons at Mărăști and Mărășești, giving a modern character to the battles", does this work or how should I rephrase it?
-I took a stab at it, see how it reads to you. Feel free to revert or tweak my language.
-Looks good to me.
- I already mentioned the re-locations of squadrons/groups (specifically that of Grupul 3) that happened, if that's what you mean by "movements". As for the air victories, sadly I don't have the numbers for the whole summer campaign, but I do have the victories for the month of August so I could mention those. Alin2808 (talk) 20:16, 31 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
-Summarized losses and victories, if available for a decent interval, are always welcome.
- Alright, will add those to the article.
 Done - added the victories for the month of August as presented in the book. I also added the number of missions and flight hours that were executed on 19 August, thought it would be good to show how active the aviation was at that time.
Alright, I also removed some unnecessary info. For the 1919 section I think I'll keep the names of the pilots involved as there's not many of them.
See Hungarian–Romanian War#Hungarian offensive and the Romanian counterattack afterwards. Also, in that article it says it started on 24 July, but the book I have says it started on the 25th. It's possible that it started during the night of 24/25, but I'll keep the info from the book I cited throughout the article.
I'm not concerned about the exact starting date, but rather that you need to tell the reader that the Hngarians launched their counterattack on whatever date and then the Romanians resumed their offensive on 25 July.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 14:19, 3 May 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
 Done - Removed some of the duplicate links. Left the Royal Palace -> Vrana Palace link just so the readers know that both times the "Royal Palace" is mentioned, it's referring to that one.

Late comments

I could remove the names of the pilots but I think they should be kept because there's no other article where I could mention all of them.
"Profile formations" refers to other aviation formations like the mentioned aviation groups, the central material depot, etc. I removed it as it doesn't really need to be included. The technical operation group, if you are asking about that, is my translation of "grup tehnic de exploatare" (as it appears in the article) meaning that it provides technical service during operations, while the technical service works with the Aeronautical Arsenal.
Rephrased it.
 Done that Alin2808 (talk) 19:47, 3 May 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Status query

Sturmvogel 66, Alin2808, where does this nomination stand? As best I can tell, the most recent edits to this page and to the article itself were on 31 January, over three weeks ago. Thank you. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:00, 24 February 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'm still waiting for Sturmvogel 66 to continue the review. Been waiting since the last reply... Alin2808 (talk) 21:02, 24 February 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
My deepest apologies, I've had some problems with depression over the last month or so. We should be nearly done.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 03:31, 5 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
No problems, I'm glad you're back! I did some minor edits to the article for now, but will have to continue in the weekend when I'm back home because I don't currently have the book with me. Alin2808 (talk) 19:34, 7 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
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