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If you have a source, then make the change and cite the source. The article you shared doesn't appear to say anything about the reasons why Americans don't know about Valentina Tereshkova, it simply says they don't. Since you're saying that it was a widespread, nearly universal claim, you'll want to find a source that backs this up, probably a modern study of space propaganda. Sevey13 (talk) 23:23, 12 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
i changed the wording from 'first astronaut known to be LGBT' to first astronaut known to be lesbian but was reverted. LGBT refers to a community that includes transgender people. Ride was apparently lesbian, gay, bisexual, but she was not trans, therefore i figured when referring to her as the first anything in space, it would be better to refer to her as lesbian because that refers to her individual identity. the other references to LGBT refer to community/community-awards/etc so those seem more correct and i left them alone. but it is odd phrasing to refer to her as the 'first astronaut known to be lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender' (which is what is being said when using that initialism). it also seems to me that using the initialism amounts to lesbian erasure but im not sure given that i am not part of the lesbian community. also if this discussion results in the word lesbian being restored, should the lead section read 'first astronaut known to be a lesbian', or 'first astronaut known to be lesbian'? .usarnamechoice (talk) 02:12, 12 September 2022 (UTC) edited 02:21, 12 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I think you misunderstand 'LGBT' as a term; it does not imply that a person holds all four identities. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:16, 12 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
i believe that LGBT refers to a community. lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender each refers to a member of this community. .usarnamechoice (talk) 02:19, 12 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
the current cites for the disputed text are 61 and 62. 61 is Business Insider Australia which mentions "lesbian" five times in the article, and "LGBT" zero times in the article. 62 is Scientific American, which uses "lesbian" once, and "LGBT" zero times. perhaps the text should conform to the citations. :^) .usarnamechoice (talk) 19:43, 12 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'll add what I told someone else who I reverted recently when they changed "LGBT" to Lesbian: "Sally Ride never called herself a lesbian, and where possible we defer to how people self-identify. In Lynn Sherr's biography of Ride, done with cooperation of Ride's partner Tam, Tam explains: "We never publicly said, 'We're gay.' We didn't like labels of any kind, but especially the ones referring to sexuality: queer, lesbian, homosexual." In addition, Ride's only legal marriage was to a man. Naturally a woman being married to a man doesn't make her a straight or bisexual, there are plenty of same-gender attracted people who were stuck in heteronormative marriages. However, since Ride isn't alive anymore to explain whether she had romantic feelings for the man she married and the other men she dated, we opted for the more general and vague LGBTQ+ label. A lot of this was discussed and deliberated on the Sally Ride talk page. " In other words, it's not Lesbian erasure, it's being accurate to the best of our ability given the information we have on her. Would she call herself a lesbian today, in 2022? Maybe, maybe not, but since she is deceased we cannot know and therefore it is inaccurate to apply that specific label. This was discussed at length already on the talk page here, feel free to look back through the archives. Sevey13 (talk) 21:00, 12 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
i did look through the archives before posting here, but only found the initial hubbub around this detail becoming known because of her obituary in Archive 1, and the discussion in Archive 2. in Archive 2, @Str1977: objected to the use of the cumbersome initialism on the same grounds that i used. you mention Sally Ride never called herself a lesbian, and where possible we defer to how people self-identify, but Ms Ride also never called herself "LGBT" either so i don't see how that argument fits. i hate to resort to a hypothetical, but what happens when the first transgendered individual goes to space? if Ms Ride is already occupying the "first LGBT" in space position, then is the transgendered individual relegated to second 'LGBT' in space? to me it makes sense to call her the 'first lesbian', and allow the transgendered individual in space to be called the 'first transgendered individual' in space when that day comes. .usarnamechoice (talk) 21:45, 12 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
First off, I want to say that you're asking good questions. Writing about LGBTQ+ history can be a minefield (trust me, I do it a lot though not here on the wiki), and so being thoughtful and inquisitive, and being open to the complexities of language, is a perfect way to approach this.
I hear what you're saying, and on the surface it would make sense. Sally had an enduring romantic relationship with another woman, therefore it seems logical to call her a lesbian. That might work in casual conversation, but we're talking about an encyclopedic entry here which means we have to apply a standard of rigor to the statement. This is all made so much more complicated because she's dead and we can't just ask her "hey Sally, can we say you're a lesbian in your wiki article?"
When we apply that standard of rigor to the statement that Sally Ride was the first known lesbian in space, it falls apart quickly under that more serious scrutiny. Specifically, it doesn't account for the fact that she was legally married to and had romantic relationships with men which we have no record of her disavowing as "cover relationships." In fact, in that same biography her ex-husband says he believes her love for him was genuine at that time. If Sally did indeed feel love for him at that moment in her life, does this make Sally bisexual? Pansexual? If so, the lesbian label is incorrect. But also labeling her as bisexual is making a claim that we can't really prove.
As already mentioned, it also doesn't account for her specifically rejecting the label of "lesbian" during her life. You are correct that she rejected other labels, too, and an argument could be made that any label would run counter to her wishes. That's where we, as editors, need to strike a balance between respecting someone's self identity and our obligation to historical truth - whatever that may be. We know that Sally had an enduring romantic relationship with another woman whom she loved deeply. This puts her in the extremely broad category we today call LGBTQ+, which includes people who feel they don't fit into any of the various categories/labels that have been constructed to apply to different combinations of attractions and affections. Yes, we can get into a circuitous conversation about a label for people who reject labels, but that would be unproductive and at the end of the day given the structure of Wikipedia, we've got to pick something. Since "lesbian" doesn't accurately capture what we can know about her life, we opted for the broader LGBTQ+ category.
As to your question about what to do when the first known trans astronaut reaches space, while I can't speak for whomever will write that article, presumably they would be called the first transgender astronaut. (Incidentally the term "transgendered," which you used, is considered outdated and possibly offensive depending on the person. I know language can concerning LGBTQ+ identities can change quickly, so I'm bringing it up as I presume you just didn't know.) Calling someone LGBTQ+ is referring to the wide collection of identities, it's not saying they hold every single identity. Anderson Cooper is LGBTQ+, but that doesn't mean he's a lesbian. It's an umbrella term.
It seems like you're interested in learning more about this, so I'm going to recommend some resources. The first few chapters of Leila J. Rupp and Susan K. Freeman's "Understanding and Teaching U.S. Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender History" does a really good job of succinctly surveying traditions of LGBTQ+ histories around the world, and also does a great job of summarizing the complexities of applying modern labels to people who are deceased. The Resources section of WikiProject LGBT Studies has a comprehensive set of guidelines for the Wiki standards . If you think trying to figure out how to categorize Sally Ride is tricky, try writing about Kaúxuma Núpika! Sevey13 (talk) 22:53, 12 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
given the structure of Wikipedia, we've got to pick something. Since "lesbian" doesn't accurately capture what we can know about her life, we opted for the broader LGBTQ+ category.
if she specifically rejected the label, then why include her in a community she rejected? Ms Ride sounds like the other option: a woman who loved a woman. there is nothing in the structure of Wikipedia that requires her to be included in a community that she was not part of and specifically rejected, so i don't think "we've got to pick something". the part about her longterm relationship can be summed up as women who have sex with women. .usarnamechoice (talk) 02:15, 17 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
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I would like to change the Popular Culture Section from not including the play Dr. Ride's American Beach House by Liza Birkenmeier to including the play in the popular section and a brief summary and link. Evidence of purchasing the playThe play premiering Off-Broadway
Below is verbatim what I would like to say:
In 2019, Dr. Ride's American Beach House by Liza Birkenmeier premiered Off-Broadway in New York City on October 21, 2019 at Ars Nova. It’s 1983, the evening before Dr. Sally Ride’s historic space flight. Hundreds of miles from the launch, life-long best friends Harriet and Matilda come together for their weekly Two Serious Ladies Book Club to follow the launch. Encounters from friends throughout he nigh bring about passionate opinions and brings to light the absence of opportunities before them as they sit on a sweltering St. Louis rooftop watching life pass them by. Their uncharted desires bump up against American norms of sex and power in this intimate snapshot of queer anti-heroines.] Birkenmeier highlights that Dr. Ride's American Beach House is about the performance and power of the self as a subject and object, especially in terms of desire, and is lensed with Dr. Ride's experience as an astronaut in relation to her LGBTQ identity. The title of the play refers to NASA's Beach House that was used for astronauts like Sally Ride to quarantine before missions.
I would like to change "Ride and Tyson began a relationship. To earn money they gave tennis lessons, and in 1971 and 1972 they were counselors at Dennis Van der Meer's TennisAmerica summer camp at Lake Tahoe, Nevada." to To earn money Ride and her then-girlfriend Tyson gave tennis lessons, and in 1971 and 1972 they were counselors at Dennis Van der Meer's TennisAmerica summer camp at Lake Tahoe, Nevada.
The reason for this hanger being that the grammar surrounding their relationship is awkwardly worded and ambiguous.
[2] Prentice Jones (talk) 12:40, 11 May 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Changed as suggested. Still awkwardly worded and ambiguous. Hawkeye7(discuss) 20:14, 11 May 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
level-5 vital article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
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