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I have been following this debate for a number of years now and would like to make the following observations and suggestions. 1. There is no doubt that the Australian manufacturers have been actively fighting Deckers in this section and using it for self promotion. 2. There is also no doubt that the word UGG or ugg can be and has been used as a marketing tool on thousands of websites to help sell “Generic ugg boots”. 3. Deckers do own trademarks in almost every area outside of Australia and New Zealand and have now defended their marks in several countries in various courts of law. 4. Deckers have the vast majority of worldwide sales and are responsible for the vast increase in these boots sales due to their marketing efforts. 5. Since Deckers sales have increased so much in recent years, dozens if not hundreds of companies and individuals have jumped on the bandwagon and used the internet to tout that they are selling “real Ugg boots from Australia”. In doing so they are breaking international trademark laws and put their poor customers in risk of having their order confiscated when it arrives in the US, Europe etc. 6. None of these Australian companies complaining about the name can legally sell generic “ugg boots” in any store (wholesale) outside of Australia if the word ugg is on the product or packaging. 7. While Deckers has considerable internet sales, it is only a very small portion of their overall sales. Considering that Deckers dominate this category and that, while their sales are impressive, the larger portion of sales come from their wholesale business which doubles at retail. Therefore, the market share of this style of boots for Deckers is by far more than all the websites selling these boots and complaining about what is now a brand that is known all over the world.
While I agree about having a smaller section dedicated to “Ugg boots from Australian and new Zealand”, there is massive and overwhelming use of the truly generic term “Sheepskin Boots”. This term is used by Deckers to generically describe this style and by most of these Australian companies that are fighting this loosing battle over Deckers trademarks. Additionally, there is a substantial amount of legitimate “Brands” that both wholesale and retail sheepskin boots all over the world including Australian and New Zealand. These brands include, EMU, Koolaburra, Bearpaw, Aussie Dogs, Warmbat, Green Lizard, Love from Australia, Koalabi etc, etc. I would dare to speculate that their sales are considerably more than the opportunistic internet retailers that are still bitching and moaning about the name ugg.
One look at the Ugg N Rugs operation would confirm that many of these are nothing more than a small cottage industry that is pissed off that they have missed the boat and that many of their boots are returned by customers who actually wanted Deckers UGG boots. Look at their disclaimers in their sites to confirm this.
In summary, I hope that a the editors will create a “Sheepskin Boots” section as it seems unfair for all these other legitimate Brands to be labeled as “Ugg boots” or “Ugg like” as it unfairly places Deckers in the position of the original and the others as copies. This seems like a fair compromise and allows any other individuals or companies to go out and sell their goods through their own merit and not by falsely misleading the consumers who are free to choose other legitimate sheepskin boot brands, Deckers included, without being confused over what this name means here or there. --Illume1999 (talk) 20:26, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
I am putting together a main category titled “Sheepskin Boots” and welcome the editor’s help in doing so. The largest worldwide trend in footwear is Sheepskin boots and has been for the last 8 years. While I do understand that in Australia they are referred to commonly as “ugg boots”, Australia is only a fraction of the worldwide population.
It is not logical for Wikipedia to only have two options: 1. Ugg boots – what sheepskin boots are called in Australia 2. UGG a worldwide brand owned by a single corporation.
It defies all of Wikipedia’s principles to only acknowledge that for 99.9% of the world, this category has no generic term to describe this style of footwear.
If UGG is a brand name in 99.9% of the world, as this community has ultimately confirmed, then what is the generic term for this style of footwear? The answer is of course “Sheepskin Boots”.
I have compiled a list of just some of the companies that refer to this style of boots as “Sheepskin Boots”
Sheepskin Boots: UGG, EMU, Koolaburra, Aussie Dogs, Warmbat, Green Lizard Australia, Love from Australia, Koalabi, Ausiie Boots Australia, Shepherd, Jumbuck, Overland, Shoo Republic, Seekin, Celtic, Morlands, Mou,
Sheepskin “Lined” Boots: Lamo, Sketchers, Chooka, Bearpaw, Old Friend, Staheekum, Minnetonka, Ricardo B.H., Lugz, Brodie, Flurries, Cloud Nine,
Sheepskin Boots are a worldwide phenomenon and have been in existence in some shape or form since the dawn of time. Let’s not only reference one fraction of the world population or a single company and deny the existence of this correct and totally legitimate generic term. I am suggesting that this becomes the landing page with sub headings as follows: • Ugg boots, a style of sheepskin boot that originated in Australia and New Zealand • UGG Australia a trademarked brand name for footwear, bags, clothing and other goods Lets all work together on this one to put together an impartial landing page for Sheepskin Boots.
--Illume1999 (talk) 15:35, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
It appears that this article is taking shape however, it is very difficult to get some consensus here as the article was so edited over night. I had only put out a first draft and had appealed for help in writing this article however, the references to "Australian sheepskin boots" were nearly all replaced with "ugg boots" and now we have an article that doesn't mention them at all.
The big question still remains, if 20 million people in Australian know the "Australian sheepskin boot style" as an "ugg boot", what shall the rest of the World's 6.908 billion people call them? And before another Australian editor says "ugg boots", that term is trademarked and cannot be used to describe the style "legally" outside of Australia. Its not an oppinion, this is an absolute fact. Should this ever change, that is a different matter but as of now, and for quite some time, this is the reality of the situation.
If this community doesn't like to call the style "sheepskin boots" or "Australian sheepskin boots", even though this is the term used today by international and Australian manufacturers, Industry buyers and consumers alike, what shall the "generic" term be for this style that is currently the biggest selling style of boots in the world?--Illume1999 (talk) 13:19, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
Comment - Can this section os something like it be included in the new "Sheepskin boots" page?
Australian Sheepskin Boots
Australian Sheepskin boots today are one of the most popular trends of casual footwear and over the last decade, global sales for sheepskin boots have grown exponentially. One particular style that originated in Australia and is attributed to the Australian Surfing culture is the “Classic” Australian sheepskin boot (also known in Australia and New Zealand as ugg boots. The UGG brand is largely attributed to the dramatic increase in popularity and has successfully won over celebrities such as Oprah Winfrey who has featured the UGG brand sheepskin boots one of her favorite things for the last 5 years. Some other popular sheepskin boot brands are EMU, Koolaburra, Warmbat, Aussie Dogs, Green Lizard Australia, Love from Australia, Koalabi, Ausiie Boots Australia, Shepherd, Jumbuck, Overland, Shoo Republic, Seekin, Celtic, Morlands and Mou.
--Illume1999 (talk) 13:29, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
I've reverted the article back to the version written by Colonel Warden and RJHall. Duplicating content from ugg boots is an unacceptable content fork per WP:Content forking. As such, I've removed the duplicate material and returned it into an article about sheepskin boots in general. However, I've also added a paragraph about ugg boots, as it makes sense to include them in any general discussion of sheepskin boots - I've tried to keep it as neutral as I can, though, so hopefully that is ok. - Bilby (talk) 01:35, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
This article is not about ugg boots, it is about the name that they are called everywhere outside of Australia "Sheepskin boots" or "Australian sheepskin boots". There is a link to Deckers trademarks on the ugg boots page which shows they are all very live and current but this is not the place to discuss trademark issues, as that is more than covered on the various "Ugg" pages. Apart from a mention that "Ugg boots" is the common name in Australia, the content here needs to be about "Australian sheepskin boots"--Illume1999 (talk) 13:14, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
Colonel Warden, your edit is very nice and you have well researched this and I thank you for the time that you have invested to get this working. Could we all agree to do the following?
1. Title the section on this style to "Australian sheepskin boots" (as per rough below)
2. Move the design section from the "ugg boots" page to this page to avoid any duplication.
3. Leave the "ugg boots" page as is and leave that "very detailed" history there where it belongs
4. Put back into the this section the other "global brands"
5. Add see also, ugg boots, UGG Australia
Australian sheepskin boots
Along with their ability to provide warmth in cooler climates, sheepskin boots with the fleece on the inside are both comfortable and have the ability to draw moisture away from the skin.[10] Thus this style of sheepskin boot became popular with Surfers in Australia, where they are known as "ugg boots". Outside of Australia and New Zealand, the style was popularized by Deckers Outdoor Corporation through their UGG Australia brand, and became a successful fashion trend.[10]
Other popular sheepskin boot brands are EMU, Koolaburra, Warmbat, Aussie Dogs, Green Lizard Australia, Love from Australia, Koalabi, Ausiie Boots Australia, Shepherd, Jumbuck, Overland, Shoo Republic, Seekin, Celtic, Morlands and Mou.
Design
Note - move entire design section from "ugg boots" page and insert here.(change "ugg boots" to "sheepskin boots" in the copy)
Cheaper Versions
Some variations of Australian sheepskin boots have also been made by combining leather and sheepskin lining which is a much cheaper process and usually sell for much less than pure sheepskin boots. The Bearpaw Company uses this process exclusively on all of their sheepskin boots. There are also synthetic boots. Although derided as "fake" by some in the industry,[23] their lower price made them appealing to large retail chains such as Wall-Mart.
Foot Problems
In 2009 American podiatrist Ed Chairman raised concern that the regular wearing of Sheepskin boots by UGG and other manufacturers could be deleterious to foot health due to the lack of arch support.[25] Some companies have improved their design and have added arch support and other advanced features to their products (3 new references below)
See also:
(refferences to be added -)
1. http://www.emuaustralia.com/story.asp (Click on features and benefits)
2. http://www.warmbat.com/en/features
3. http://www.greenlizardaustralia.com/sheepskin_boots/products.html
I feel that this would be a very nice section and it would leave the "ugg boots" page dedicated to just information on this style in Australia, its history and trademark issues while generic things like design are on this main page. This would leave Decker's UGG page about that company and also its various trademark issues.--Illume1999 (talk) 16:09, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
You have stated that the Oxford English dictionary confirms that it is "a proprietary name for a type of soft, sheepskin boot" so, the "Generic" not "Proprietary" name outside of Australia that all major companies, including Deckers, use is "Australian sheepskin boots". We have the propriety name covered on the UGG Australia page and ugg boots page.
"A trademark or trade mark or trade-mark[1] is a distinctive sign or indicator used by an individual, business organization, or other legal entity to identify that the products or services to consumers with which the trademark appears originate from a unique source, and to distinguish its products or services from those of other entities."
This article is about the generic name for this style that is used to describe this style of boots. It is not possible to refer to this style, anywhere that it is trademarked, as an ugh, ugg or ug boot as long as it is a trademark (http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/1834017/UGGglobaltms-pdf-march-31-2010-3-03-pm-88k?da=y). --Illume1999 (talk) 18:37, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
Added back the content acknowledging the most popular generic name outside of Australia "Australian sheepskin boots". Will leave design information in the ugg boot section--Illume1999 (talk) 13:13, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
The article on Wellington boot is a good example of how this sheepskin boots page should be. It acknowledges the history and "Other common Names" It goes on and lists and acknowledges all the popular names in several countries "Usage and terminology in other countries". This is the approach we need to this "Main sheepskin boots page"--Illume1999 (talk) 16:38, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
There is a parallel between the "wellington boot" and sheepskin boots. They both have a long history, they have changed throughout the years (from leather to rubber for the wellington) and are today known by the most popular "generic" name. If wellington boots were a brand, that would not be the most popular name today and Wikipedia would refer to them by their generic name and also refer to the brand. The same is for Ugg boots, originated in Australia, known in Australia as Ugg boots but the rest of the world calls them "sheepskin boots" unless they are from Deckers and then they are called Uggs. Other boots with the name "ugg" on them that do not come from Deckers are commonly refered to outside of Australia as "Fugs" or Fake Ugg boots.--Illume1999 (talk) 13:11, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
Bilby, of course I am not suggesting to change wellington boots to rubber boots. I am using this as a reference that may be a good platform for sheepskin boots which is being widely accepted by the way. Ugg boots would be the common name in Australian and New Zealand. For the rest of the world, the common name is "Sheepskin boots" or specifically "Australian sheepskin boots". As far as Fugg boots today, here are some references to "fugs" (fake UGGs) which is now popular culture, outside of Australia of course.
and there is even a Tee shirt http://www.zazzle.com/wait_so_if_fake_uggs_ar_called_fugs_are_rea_tshirt-235110943924399954 --Illume1999 (talk) 17:21, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
I have found some great pictures of "Fug boots" and a link that should be added to the sheepskin boots references. http://thevintageaviator.co.nz/node/1885 http://www.theaerodrome.com/help/glossary.php?pageNum_glossary=6&totalRows_glossary=86 --Illume1999 (talk) 20:41, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
Thanks to everyone for your participation in AfD. Even though we often disagree, I respect your opinions and your right to have them, and I am grateful for the courteous expression of those opinions. This subject somehow (probably through a talkboard) attracted the attention of a lot of new Wikipedia editors, easily identified by their red names at the ends of their posts. "New" does not necessarily mean "single purpose," because the first edit (or handful of edits) from any new account can appear single-purpose, and the SPA tag was applied a little too vigorously by a partisan editor at AfD. Please remember WP:AGF.
I've had email discussions with a lot of you regarding your votes in AfD, and your purpose in editing Wikipedia. Everyone denied being an agent for a manufacturer, but actions speak a lot louder than words. I am convinced that there are at least one agent for Deckers, and at least two for Australian manufacturers, working on this article and on Ugg boots. There isn't anything inherently wrong with that, but it can easily go astray. Please see WP:COI.
I am especially grateful to Donama for changing his vote at the last minute from "Delete" to "Keep." The discussion is here: [1] Let's all work together to create a genuinely NPOV article. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 14:43, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
I think this has been well discussed. If the opinion is that this entry should be about all forms of Sheepskin boots then I commend the others for their candor. While our opinions about how "UGG" is used differ, I think this discussion has worked out very well. I'm not well liked on this page but I think this is positive work. Cheers.--Factchk (talk) 01:50, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
So where do we go from here? How can we further improve this article? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 17:01, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
I added a more complete section that was fair and factual but it was reverted within minutes. I think this version is fairly close to what this section should be.--Illume1999 (talk) 15:51, 2 May 2011 (UTC) be.
Bilby, why not discuss each point so we all can collectively work on this together? List your questions and I will back them up.
The small Australian resellers are trying to deny UGG Australia's role in making this boot what it is today and may not agree to anything that is written here. From the Australian Sheepskin Association: "Don’t forget that most of these small Australian businesses operate on the interned where search terms are the ONLY way to be found. So developing a new name was just not a solution."
Deckers Billion dollar sales (at 80% wholesale so the retail number are much more) dwarfs the largest Australian company, Luda Productions, as they claim sales of approximately $10,000,000 per annum or 1% of Deckers sales. Every major manufacturer outside of Australia (and many inside of Australia too) calls this style "sheepskin boots" and it is just not right for Australian editors to keep denying the facts!--Illume1999 (talk) 13:21, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
Phoenix, nearly all of the statements are out of the current references but here they are again. I am sorry that I do not know how to add them to the reference list at the bottom.
Also, I though that the quote from BB&T Capital Markets analyst Scott Krasik was quite profound and should be added to al least the popularity and possibly also referenced in the brand section of the article as the comparison to Apple reiterated the point I have been making for some time.
Citations
Ugg boots / Australian sheepskin boots
has an estimated 120 million sheep... http://www.anra.gov.au/topics/agriculture/sheep-wool/index.html#howmany
however, it's the "Classic Style," believed to have first appeared in the Australian surfing culture in the 1960s that spread throughout Australia, New Zealand and eventually the world....does anyone seriously doubt this statement?
Popularity
Demand - "Our sales have been increasing 10 per cent a year for the past 10 years, but we found last season that there has been huge demand for our product in Australia and overseas". http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/03/12/1078594562069.html
Deckers - “It’s one of the great success stories within the consumer category,” says BB&T Capital Markets analyst Scott Krasik, a follower of footwear, apparel and specialty retail since 2003. “You can put it on a level with Apple in terms of the attention the brand has brought.” http://magazine.wsj.com/features/behind-the-brand/the-golden-fleece/
Brands One of the first major manufacturers of sheepskin boots in Australia was Shane Stedman, who in 1971 began mass producing the classic style of Australian sheepskin boots.[citation needed] Stedman trademarked the term "Ugh-Boots" in Australia in 1971.[citation needed] http://www.babelgum.com/114094/the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugg-boot.html
“It’s one of the great success stories within the consumer category,” says BB&T Capital Markets analyst Scott Krasik, a follower of footwear, apparel and specialty retail since 2003. “You can put it on a level with Apple in terms of the attention the brand has brought.” http://magazine.wsj.com/features/behind-the-brand/the-golden-fleece/ --Illume1999 (talk) 14:45, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
I agree. Its time for the Aussies to either compile their "facts" and post it on their site (Australian Sheepskin Association) or stop interfering so we can get down to an accurate article about a worldwide fashion phenomenon "sheepskin boots" (see my post on the ugg boots talk page).
I tried to cover sheepskin lined boots in the very first version but of course, every version that I post is usually deleted in its entirety. It would seem only fair to break up the popular sheepskin boots section into twin faced sheepskin and sheepskin lined versions. --Illume1999 (talk) 12:25, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
I have to admit to being confused. Illume1999 has been insisting that people will come here looking for information on "australian style sheepskin boots". We have an article on that style called "ugg boots". Therefore, standard policy is to direct people, using a hatone, to the specific article covering what they are interested in, or to provide a disambig page. Therefore, why is there a problem with a hatnote that does this? Especially given that it also directs them to UGG Australia? - Bilby (talk) 15:30, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
Bilby, your conclusion is incorrect. I have never argued that people looking for information on ugg boots will come here. Previously this article was redirected to ugg boots which was not correct for two main reasons; a. not all sheepskin boots are ugg boots and b. the name has changed outside of australia for the classic style and is internationally referred to as "sheepskin boots' or "Australian sheepskin boots". --Illume1999 (talk) 16:21, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
Currently, we have a line that reads:
This seems odd to me. First, outside of product catalogs, I've never heard of the "classic style" used to refer to ugg boots, and then only in relation to a particular product in their line. Second, the context being used there is the Australian context, that of the style in Australia, as created by Australians. Thus it seems that rather than tortuously trying to avoid saying "ugg boots", why don't we just say ugg boots? And yes, I know we'll get the usual "99% of people outside of Australia call them something else", but a) those 99% of people don't call them "classic style" either, and b) this line is specifically referring to the Australian context, in particular, where I think we would agree that ugg boot is the term in common usage. - Bilby (talk) 18:27, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
It seems odd to delete several large companies such as EMU, Overland and Celtic and add Uggs-n-Ruggs. EMU is a multi national company that wholesales its products all over the world whilst Uggs-N-Rugs only sells in Australia through their website and do not wholesale. Just because they don't have a section on Wikipedia should not deny their existence. I feel that all three companies deserve a page or at least a mention here for now. --Illume1999 (talk) 19:05, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
From brand. A global brand is one which is perceived to reflect the same set of values around the world. Global brands transcend their origins and create strong enduring relationships with consumers across countries and cultures. They are brands sold in international markets...--Illume1999 (talk) 22:43, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
If this article mentions ugg boots, they should be called ugg boots, not "Australian sheepskin boots" and, as an article about uggs, regardless of what you call them, already exists it is content forking (WP:FORK) to duplicate or put an alternate story about them here. Ugg boots are NOT known as "Australian sheepskin boots" internationally. In common parlance, they are correctly called ugg boots. The issue is that the Deckers trademark prevent them being advertised as such. Thus the "Australian sheepskin boots" section needs to be renamed and should only summarise the ugg boots article, not build upon it. That activity belongs in the ugg boos article. Donama (talk) 00:21, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
Donama, that's your POV and being from Australia you are bias. http://www.stylelist.com/2011/01/18/health-hazards-festering-in-your-sheepskin-winter-boots/ --Illume1999 (talk) 13:18, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
Australians call anything with sheepskin on it "ugg boots" http://news.ninemsn.com.au/entertainment/7936825/high-heeled-ugg-boots-represent-australia Outside of Australia, UGG is the brand and sheepskin boots or Australian sheepskin boots are the generic terms http://shoes.about.com/od/boots/a/ugg.htm --Illume1999 (talk) 14:24, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
So a 10cm heel, pointed toe is an "ugg style"? http://sydney-central.whereilive.com.au/photos/gallery/miss-universe-australia-2011-lingerie-parade-high-heeled-ugg-boots-photographs-by-melvyn-knipe/ Again, I maintain that Australians call any boot or shoe with sheepskin on it an ugg. The undeniable point here is that in Australia, ugg today is not a specific style, it is the generic name that Aussies call all sheepskin boots. --Illume1999 (talk) 12:17, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
Here is a 1980s Australian TV ad that calls them "Sheespkin boots" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osfLy6N7QCA&feature=related This feature about the UGG brand refers to the boots generically as "Sheepskin boots" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lev4VkktHp4 --Illume1999 (talk) 13:33, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
In Australia the boots are called "ugg boots" regardless of brand. This has been the universal term for the style in Australia since the 1960s. As the paragraph is about what they are called in Australia the correct spelling should be used. I will also point out that the OED is not a reliable source in this instance as they changed the definition in 2006 at Deckers request. The spelling "ugh" is used to identify a brand and is never used by the public to refer to the boot style itself. Wayne (talk) 18:33, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
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