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A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Peter Fenton (guitarist) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Peter Fenton (guitarist) until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Carliertwo (talk) 23:11, 28 December 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

...Is that Siouxsie Sioux was the founder and leader. If we don't say that in the first paragraph,[1] then we lead the reader to believe that the band was influential only because of its guitar dudes, first McKay and then McGeoch.

A certain amount of redundancy is required between this band article and Siouxsie's biography. It's essential to define this band as her creation, her vision, with her influence at the top. Binksternet (talk) 04:14, 16 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The Banshees as a group did no wear heavy menacing makeup and dark clothing. Siouxsie the individual did. It was a band, a collective, not a singer and her backing band. She was the only one to fit this description and the only member to have any influence on gothic fashion. In fact, other members were known for wearing bright colors (Budgie's mellow blonde hair and yellow shirts were conspicious, as were Steven Severin's colorful shirts and John McGeoch's decisive anti-fashion garb). And this band was not hers. She co-founded it with Steven Severin. Carliertwo (talk) 05:01, 16 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Please note below

[2] and [3]

Carliertwo (talk) 05:15, 16 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Your argument about Siouxsie's personal style is no reason to remove Siouxsie's musical influence from the first paragraph. She put her stamp on the band, and a brief sentence about her must come first in this article. It's essential.

Your assertion that the band was a collective has no basis. Siouxsie and Severin were the founding members. Siouxsie hired and fired the other musicians, unless they quit on their own. She was the boss. A ton of sources describe her as the band's frontwoman, leader. Binksternet (talk) 06:09, 16 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Siouxsie's contributions were certainly not more important than Severin's. Severin wrote the lyrics for two of their most famous singles, "Spellbound" and "Christine". He also wrote lyrics for a lot of the other tracks. Their most successful album in the UK, Kaleidoscope, was composed by Siouxsie and Severin.

Guitarist John McGeoch was fired by Severin in 1982. From Siouxsie & The Banshees The Authorised Biography by Mark Paytress 2003). Severin pages 126-127: "it was obvious that he was falling apart... I said, this is not good, I put in a call to Robert that night".

Severin page 163: "With McGeoch, it wasn't really a case of sacking him, we didn't invite him back. With John Carruthers, though, it was definitely giving him the boot... I tried to be as diplomatic as I could"

Severin page 200: "Jon Klein had dug his heels and refused to compromise on anything ... We sacked him". Carliertwo (talk) 23:32, 22 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Regarding the first paragraph describing the band as influential, should Siouxsie's influence be listed as the first reason for the band's fame? The following text is suggested:

• Frontwoman Sioux has been called a "style icon", inspiring gothic fashion with her appearance, and the gothic rock genre with her musicianship. Cited to Goddard in this edit. If the answer is no, the band is represented as influential based on its guitarists. Binksternet (talk) 15:16, 16 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Discussion

• Siouxsie first as it's her name on the band, her fashion style that was so widely emulated, her vocal style that imprinted the band's sound. She is listed as the frontwoman of the band by many media observers. Let's not erase Siouxsie from her own band. Binksternet (talk) 15:16, 16 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  Comment It's a bit overwrought to say Siouxsie is being erased here. The current lede seems fine to me. Possibly further mention of Siouxsie's contributions could be added, but the idea that she inspired "the gothic rock genre with her musicianship" isn't supported by the cited reference (and I doubt it's supportable). Also, the band isn't primarily notable for her fashion style. CAVincent (talk) 17:56, 23 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  Siouxsie Sioux is simply not the main reason that the Banshees were influential. I say this as someone who had posters of Siouxsie on my bedroom wall as an 80s teenager. The article without your repeated insertion covers her importance and contributions perfectly well. No one is marginalizing or erasing her. CAVincent (talk) 06:07, 11 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Should we change the header image to one of the band in a different iteration?

I think most critics and commentators would agree that as influential as the original lineup was in the birth of post punk, it was the 1980-82 era with John McGeoch and Budgie that garnered the most popular acclaim and widespread influence (see recent McGeoch biography, 2022 as a source for this). In addition, Budgie was the longest serving member of the band after Sioux and Severin and he is almost synonymous with the band's image and reputation - see the bands Spotify page for instance.

Shall we propose a new, clearer image of the band featuring these two? 81.110.11.76 (talk) 23:13, 20 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

There was some conflict about what accolades deserved to be mention in the lead paragraph of this band's page. I think I've produced a very reasonable, balanced, and definitely-not-hagiographic-or-fanatically-overstuffed solution to the problem, with attention to avoiding the undue weight which might result from a biased, fanatical, or selective approach to reflecting the journalistic consensus and accolades that are relevant to this musical group. I'm sure all will agree with this equitable and sensible solution as it currently stands. Kkollaps (talk) 02:23, 16 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Would all y'all please knock it off with the edit warring? For what it's worth, I'm mildly (say 55%) inclined to just put the accolades in the main body of the article, my second choice would be the lead as it existed before the present disruption, and I can also live with the (OBVIOUSLY POINTY) expanded accolades in the lead. I'm mostly tired of seeing a bunch of editors that I respect going back and forth on this plain disruption. Maybe step away for a few days and then see how important the first paragraph of a wikipedia article on a rock band seems. CAVincent (talk) 18:21, 16 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

WP:LEAD tells us that the topic's importance should be established right away in the lead section. Certainly the group's wide influence and chart successes should be highlighted. I'm in favor of any lead section that tells the reader how Siouxsie herself was considered a great frontwoman, especially as a positive counterpart to accolades given to the guitarist and the drummer. If the guitarist and drummer are praised in the lead section, then Siouxsie herself must also be praised. Binksternet (talk) 18:59, 16 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I don't think it's pointy at all. If particular members of the band are praised excessively and not the singer, that seems like undue weight. I believe Kkollaps was trying to create balance, not making a point. 203.13.3.90 (talk) 05:19, 17 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]