WRONG NAME AND WRONG THEORY[edit]

Unless the author of this page wants to invent a new theory of How Somalia Collapsed he must change the name of this article to something like the beginning of Somali Civil War. THERE WAS NO REVOLUTION, There was only clan based warfare nothing that could be termed as revolution.


If the author wants to reinvent or redefine historical fact or even engage in re-defining the word revolution, well Wikipedia is not the right place to do so.


I want to inform the author that this article confuses new students and creates the idea that there was a REVOLUTION ! in 1986,


For the sake of knowledge, for the sake of transparent clear information, I appeal to you not to confuse my students. PLEASE REMOVE THIS ARTICLE





The article must be removed because[edit]

PLEASE DON'T MODIFY WHAT I WROTE!

(1) There are no refernces supporting the existence of any Somali Revolution in 1980s (2) Clan based militia/rebel groups are not revolutionaries, no documentation of any such revolutionary ferver of any of Somalia's tribal armed groups

90% of the material in the article had no direct reference and seems to be original material which of course violates wikipedia's policy

there was no revolution SNM and SSDF , like USC and SPM were all tribal entities hungry for power and led by warlords. What revolution are you talking about?

why 1986? if you were to to include SNM and SSDF groups that were active much before 1986?

KM



There are a lot of different groups involved in this phase of the Somali Civil War. One definitely needs a score card to understand what happened! This will take some time to make it complete. Feel free to chip in and add to the information base. --Petercorless 06:14, 23 December 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Why don't we rename this article the "Somalian Revolution (1986-1993) and extend the timeframe to cover both the UN interventions, and the start of attacks by the Red Berets on various groups in the country? It wasn't really a civil war per se, as the primary goal was overthrowing the established order. The lack of the neccisary element of a civil war (desire to replace the existing order) is really what is responsible for the breakdown following the overthrow. --Ingoman 08:19, 27 December 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The beginning I am ambivalent about, but my own vote would be to have this section run through to the declaration of Ali Mahdi Muhammad as President and the final split of the USC into the USC/SSA under Ali Mahdi and the USC/SNA under Aidid in November 1991.

Somalian revolution?[edit]

The title of this article is a bit confusing. First, there is no such thing as Somalian, the correct term would be Somali. Second, there has been only 1 revolution in Somalia, which was the revolution of 1969. This article deals with insurgencies that took place before the fall of the Central government, not a revolution. I think that it should be merged with the Somali Civil War article, and should be title Pre-civil war. --yardalhirj 13:28, 23 August 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Copying within Wikipedia and within the article[edit]

Thylacoop5, can you please slow down with adding large chunks of text to articles, and clearly identify in your edit summaries when and where you are copying material within Wikipedia, as is required by WP:COPYWITHIN? Here, you appear to have copied material within the article, so that it now appears twice (e.g. "According to Mohamed Haji Ingiriis, the vicious atrocities during the reign of Barre were not an isolated event nor unusual in Somalia's history"). Identifying and fixing these problems takes a lot of effort and time, so it is best to avoid them by being more careful in the first place. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:32, 30 May 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I have reverted these edits, but anyone should feel free to add the material again more judiciously, where appropriate. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:07, 31 May 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thylacoop5, please do not bluntly add the material again without addressing my concerns above. Search the page for the sentence "According to Mohamed Haji Ingiriis, the vicious atrocities during the reign of Barre were not an isolated event nor unusual in Somalia's history" and you will see that it appears twice. How much of the rest of the content is replicated? Cordless Larry (talk) 08:19, 31 May 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Can I also ask why you changed the heading "Against the Isaaq" to "SNM"? That seems to obscure the broader targeting of the Isaaq, which is covered in that section. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:42, 31 May 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Per wp:article title, the article content should reflect the title. The title speaks about the rebellions, which evidently refers to the rebel groups. You are welcome to change the title of the article if you wish. Thylacoop5 (talk) 08:47, 31 May 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Those sections were sub-sections under a heading "Crackdowns by the Barre Administration", though. The crackdown wasn't just on the SNM as an organisation. Cordless Larry (talk) 10:08, 31 May 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Looking at Thylacoop5's additions again, here are some other problems with them: the "Collective punishment" section appears to be covering some of the same events as the earlier as the "Crackdowns by the Barre Administration" section, and would be better integrated there rather than given its own section; the paragraph starting "One of Barre's earliest forms of..." is entirely unsourced; and "This shift of antagonism towards to Hawiye was a major military blunder..." is an opinion presented as a fact. Cordless Larry (talk) 14:16, 1 June 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Okay lets cover each concern. (a) The correct response to unintegrated content is to move to integrated content rather than outright deletion per WP:FIXTHEPROBLEM. (b) This is actually sourced to the next paragraph. I don't mind double citing it though. (c) Since its sourced to a reliable historian and not an opinion piece, attribution is not required per wp:RSOPINION. However, since you insist I don't mind attributing it. Thylacoop5 (talk) 15:08, 1 June 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Conclusion. I can't fix concern A since you haven't specified, but if i fix your other two concerns, does that mean we are in concurrence? Thylacoop5 (talk) 15:23, 1 June 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Integrating the material is essential, since the article shouldn't cover the same events in two different sections, just using different terms or reflecting a different POV. It would also eliminate instances where you have duplicated sentences from one section in the other. I would also be interested in hearing the views of other contributors such as Kzl55 and Buckshot06, who are much better specialists on Somalia than I am. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:33, 1 June 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
How about this; I deal with concerns (b) and (c), and you deal with concern (a) i.e. integration? Thylacoop5 (talk) 15:41, 1 June 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I agree that the 'Collective Punishment' section seems to be covering the same events/issues as 'Crackdowns by the Barre Administration'. Integrating parts of it into the earlier section ('Crackdowns...') to avoid repetition seems apt. In addition to points raised above by Cordless Larry regarding inappropriate changing of headings, I would add that a more careful look at citations and sources would be useful, for instance, the source for this statement "...These actions have also been referred to as Dabargoyn" seems to be discussing poetry, it states: "...Consists of two poems, one an imaginary poem by Siad Barre entitled Dabargoyn (Eradication) which is about Siad Barre's battle against clans there", the statement here is inaccurate as the cited source seems to indicate one poet's use of the term Dabargoyn, it could also be confused with Dabargoyn in the context of the mechanised units known as 'Isaaq extermination wing' (Dabargoynta Isaaqa) [1]. Furthermore, the bulk of these additions seem to focus on Barre's treatment of members of the Darod clan, and while that should be included, it fails WP:DUE given the scale of his genocidal campaigns against non-Darods, particularly given the broad context of the article and section. One example of such bias is the statement "Roughly 50,000 people were killed when Barre began targeting these Darood refugees as well as Isaaq clan members.", it implies Isaaq targeting was additional to the Darod refugees, when the source cited states: "the army then turned its weapons on the Isaaq populace and on the Darood refugees, killing an estimated 50,000 civilians". Please also note that most reputable sources confirm those targeted and killed in the 1988 campaign were members of the Isaaq clan [2], [3], [4] (...etc). --Kzl55 (talk) 16:58, 1 June 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Integrating the material is the harder of the tasks, so if I was to attempt that, I might as well fix the rest too. I'd have been happy to give it a go, but would have required some time to check the sources (providing I can access them). Now that Kzl55 has identified problems with the sourcing, I will hold off pending further discussion. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:48, 1 June 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Well, it seems we are in correspondence, since I have no problem making those adjustments. Here is a summary of the concerns I will enact unless there are substantial objections; (a) leave headings intact, (b) double cite, (c) attribution for Hawiye line, (d) attribution for the poet, (e) balance the victim tally per WP:DUE. As for integration, I approve of integrating disintegrated sentences where appropriate. Thylacoop5 (talk) 18:56, 2 June 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thylacoop5, given the concerns of other editors, please discuss all major proposed changes on the talk page before action. Buckshot06 (talk) 22:44, 3 June 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
What do you guys think of my suggestions? Thylacoop5 (talk) 22:54, 3 June 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Please post the revised text that you propose to add to the article here. We can then discuss it. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:52, 4 June 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Here's the revised text. [5] Thylacoop5 (talk) 10:30, 4 June 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I don't have time to read that in full right now, but on a quick scan I see you're still repeating text that's already in the article (e.g. "Taisier M. Ali states that Barre assuaged the Majerteen..."). Cordless Larry (talk) 11:23, 4 June 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Here's the revised text, without repetition. [6] Thylacoop5 (talk) 11:49, 4 June 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I don't understand why you are proposing that material such as "One of Barre's earliest forms of collecttive [sic] punishment targeting non-combatant clans was against the Majeerteen in 1979" should go in a new section, when we already have the section Somali Rebellion#Against the Majeerateen that covers this. This is what I was referring to when I previously mentioned the need for integration. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:58, 4 June 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm not opposed to it in principle. However, the quote above from Lidwien discusses clan punishment in a generalized context, i.e. mentioning its prelude dating to colonial practises, how this colonial practise instructed Barre, and preferring to use generalized terms such as "clan-based violence" or "collective punishment". In fact, the source discusses Majeerteen as a randomly chosen scapegoat, rather than a carefully chosen target. If you find a source that discusses it in a clan-specific context, then I'm fine with integrating. Thylacoop5 (talk) 13:07, 4 June 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Let me know if you have further articulation on the texts. Thylacoop5 (talk) 15:44, 4 June 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It does not seem like you have addressed the points raised previously. You have attributed the Dabargoyn text to the poet, but it is not exactly clear why this particular poet or his statement are notable or worthy of inclusion. Like Cordless Larry, I also think that the current sections are adequate enough and integrating additional text relating to Majeerteen (for instance) in the Majeerteen section is appropriate, instead of creating a new section. WP:DUE is still not addressed. The statement "Roughly 50,000 people were killed when Barre began targeting these Darood refugees and Isaaq clan members" is problematic for reasons explained above, also because Ogaden/Darod refugees were heavily favoured by Barre and formed militia that was pro Barre [7]. --Kzl55 (talk) 21:59, 4 June 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

 Done Upon closer inspection, I actually agree with these revisions. Thylacoop5 (talk) 11:36, 5 June 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

In the Majeerteen section, there is no need to repeat the 2000 figure three times within the same section. --Kzl55 (talk) 21:55, 5 June 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Removal[edit]

So, User:Kzl55, is there a reason why you removed half the article's content? Thylacoop5 (talk) 11:52, 1 June 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

If you are asking why I have reverted your edit, please see [8]. --Kzl55 (talk) 17:01, 1 June 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

1978 or 1986[edit]

When did the "rebellion" start? Srnec (talk) 23:45, 22 December 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Entire article needs reorganization[edit]

In its current state, it is an account of Siad Barre's atrocities against clans, not the actual rebellion waged against Barre. It's weird, so I'll do this in the near future - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 17:07, 7 November 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

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