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Archive 1 |
Hello, I am learning about Vietnam's elections, and I went to the source ^3. "In July 1955, Diệm announced in a broadcast that South Vietnam would not participate in the elections specified in the Geneva accords.[2] As Saigon's delegation did not sign the Geneva accords, it was not bound by it.[2] He also said the communist government in the North created conditions that made a fair election impossible in that region. This view was confirmed by independent observers from Canada, India, and Poland.[3]" Yet, when I went to read the source, it said that report said that "neither South or North had honored armistice agreement."(pg.8)It seems the the wikipedia is misleading on this subject. Can someone fact check this and fix it? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.235.7.33 (talk) 17:44, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
I strongly suggest that the name of this article be renamed to "Republic of Vietnam". Problem is that the word "South" never appeared in the official name (i.e., it never officially referred to itself as "South Vietnam"), while the name of the successor government after the end of the war but prior to unification WAS "South Vietnam". 64.72.137.241 19:10, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
See WP:COMMONNAME Kauffner (talk) 03:19, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
As a small step towards NPOV, I'm removing the 1975-1976 section of the opening timetable, as it contradicts the intended meaning of "South Vietnam". 71.125.150.79 (talk) 21:23, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
The Revision of 01:33, 16 February 2007 changed the statement that Cochin China "elected" a deputy to the French National Assembly to saying that they "killed" a deputy. This is vandalism, yes?
This is more a Q than an outright edit. I read the commentary regarding the use of the correct characters for people's names and was wondering why the same is not done for the country's name. We have Việt Nam as the name of the country in the heading of the article, but then we see Vietnam in all the text. Why not Viet Nam? JoeSchmuckatelli 01:37, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Since the last dated comments regarding the merged/conquered controversy are from 2003, I'm assuming that this has been settled, and so I am removing the NPOV tag from the article for now. It can be restored if further controversy arises. -- Jonadab, 2006 Jan 19.
Vicki, thanks for restoring South Vietnam to stub status from redirect. Many U.S. veterans who think they fought for a good cause there will appreciate having an article. Of course, the Vietnam article should still exist. The situation is perhaps similar to the West Germany and East Germany articles vs. the Germany article. Ed Poor, Thursday, June 27, 2002
Ed, about "merged" vs "conquered": The sentence now doesn't read very well; "it was conquered by ... to form"??? "merged with ... to form" makes better grammatical sense, and we should use a word that reflects this. That a conquest was involved is already stated in the first part of the sentence anyway; this part of the sentence describes the neutral fact that the countries were combined. So we should find a term that doesn't imply consent but fits in with the sentence. I claim that "merged with" is exactly the term that we need. It's a neutral term, because mergers are not necessarily voluntary. This was what in the business world is called a "hostile takeover", which is more neutrally referred to as a "merger" in that context too. If you disagree that "merged with" is neutral, claiming that it implies consent, then can you suggest another term to use instead? As it is, it doesn't read well at all, IMO. — Toby 20:03 Aug 1, 2002 (PDT)
Actually, NPOV isn't my concern; I'm convinced that "conquered" is a reasonable factual word to use. The sentiment is already expressed in the phrase "the fall of Saigon", and I wouldn't even object to rephrasing that to be more explicit. When I say that "merged" is neutral, I don't mean that it's unbiased but instead that it simply doesn't say whether the merger was voluntary or not. If that point were under contention, then we'd have to use a neutral word to remain NPOV. To my knowledge, however, that point is not under contention; even those who find the government of South Vietnam illegitimate would concede that it was conquered by the other government. So I say "neutral" not to argue that we must use that word but rather that we can without being factually incorrect (since the fact of the matter is that it was not voluntary, as Ed is correct to imply). The reason that we must (or rather, should) use "merged" is simply the way that it fits into the sentence. If the fact of conquest were not expressed at all, then I would agree that it should be added (albeit in a way that reads well), but that fact is already mentioned. — Toby 21:23 Aug 1, 2002 (PDT)
Merged vs. Conquered.
South Vietnam was conquered by North Vietnam in 1975. vs, South Vietnam and North Vietnam merged in 1976.
While both may factually correct, the nuance of the second is that it was voluntary, and the first more accurately reflects that the South lost the war to the North.
I vote conquered.
See also Saigon for similar problem.
DavidLevinson dml
My argument against "conquered" is now where it should be (I forgot to move the talk page). But I agree that Saigon has a problem. As I mention above, that the merger was the result of a conquest is already mentioned here, and on North Vietnam. (It's even clearer now, thanks to a wise anonymous poster.) But it's not mentioned on Saigon, and that's an omission. — Toby 00:48 Aug 5, 2002 (PDT)
Ed, I think that this new version is better than the old in several ways. — Toby 16:32 Aug 5, 2002 (PDT)
Re:
I think the phrase "had been established in 1969" ought to go in the Republic of South Vietnam article, rather than here. I will research and try to find out:
--Ed Poor
Well to be accurate it was the Provisional Revolutionary Government (PRG) (established in '69) of the NLF that was the official government of South Vietnam between the fall of Saigon and formal reunification in July '76.
A picture of the flag of South Vietnam should be added to the article. Den fjättrade ankan 01:11, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)
"but many others claim that it was genuine democracy" Muhahaha. At least that statement is not claimed to be a fact.
Can someone change that location map so only South Vietnam is coloured in like the map at West Germany PMA 18:15, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I think the currency was the "dong", but this might be American soldier's slang.
Sorry, your indication is correct. Please wait for edit.
An anon (68.101.223.149) apparently clicked on the red link for Bui Van Mau and typed "Vu Van Mau instead of BUI Van Mau." I've speedily deleted that, but thought I would mention it here. It seemed he was trying to let us know we had the name wrong. Google returns three (WP) hits for "Bui Van Mau" and none for "Van Van Mau." Anyone? SWAdair | Talk 06:57, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I am aware that every record of history has a certain amount of bias, but doesn't this article lean too far towards justifying American intervention in Vietnam? The historical record is pretty clear in showing the justification for stopping "murderous" communism to be largely irrational and McCarthyist. Although there were murders under Stalin's rule, it is unreasonable to put such a biased and charged statement in an encyclopedia. I don't want to insult somebody by changing their work willy nilly, but I think someone should revise the opening paragraph of this article since it definitely justifies American intervention rather than simply stating the facts. ~Andy
I see people changing his middle name ad naseum. Đ, eth, and D are two distinct letters in Vietnamese with two totally different sounds. Are we going to treat eth as just a diacritical D? I vote for Đinh. Any comments?--hvn73 16:49, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
I think the parts relating to contemporary Vietnamese culture should be moved to the Culture of Vietnam article, as this section should strictly be concerned with culture in South Vietnam prior to 1975. Viking880 05:22, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Edited out the caution that was at the bottom of information box. Utterly useless to tell people that the informaion is about an Anti-Communist regime.
I have reinstated some of the changes I made last week.
Firstly, it is illogical to say that South Vietnam came into existence in 1954 and then delete references to the State of Vietnam in the preview.
Any claims of South Vietnam to be the government of all of Vietnam were spurious, and to all intents and purposes, irrelevant to this article.
The P.R.G. did not "claim to be as such"; they were.
While an interesting fact, I am not sure how important the movement of Catholics from the North to the South is - it seems like a bit of an orphan factoid in the middle of that particuar section, but I left it in for others to decide.
It is incorrect to say that ARVN drove the North Vietnamese out of South Vietnam in a counter-attack in 1972.
I also tidied up some pretty loose language within the body text, and re-deleted the caution at the bottom of the information box: totally pointless.
Cripipper 22:23, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
To make in short and simple, in september 2nd 1945 came the Democratic Republic of Vietnam with ensuing French-Vietnamese War (1945-1954) turned to civil War by France with the creation of State of Vietnam (Quoc Gia Viet Nam) when the French called back Empereur Bao Dai self exiled in Hong Kong to lead this State in 1948.
At the time of Geneva Conference, Bao Dai callef back Ngo Dinh Diem from the US to be his Prime Minister. Diem threw Bao Dai in a coup and made the Republic of Vietnam. One Vietnam since 1945 has been temporary divided to group the armed forces for full evacuation of the French Expeditionnary Force from Vietnam in 1955.
After Unconditionnal Surrender of April 30th 1975 started the process of reunification and both RVN and DRVN went out os stage to make a single Socialist Republic of Vietnam.
Takima 00:22, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
I have searched extensively, but have never come across anything that qualifies as a declaration of independence/statehood by the political entity of South Vietnam. I'm not aware of any admission to the UN or even application thereto, any recognition by foreign governments, including the USA or in short, any pretense of a formal independent state in the southern part of the country post-1954. Can anyone supply this? Asgrrr 05:47, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
NO, because both Hanoi and Saigon claimed to be the legitimate capitals of the entire nation of Vietnam. That is why Saigon's complaints about 'foreign' troops/aggression from the D.R.V. were slightly disingenuous, given that Saigon claimed to be the legitimate government of what was North Vietnam. Cripipper 14:13, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
References
"The government preferred more chaos and loss of life in what amounted to battles which no longer had any meaning."
This isn't a fact! It is an opinion. Alot of this article looks like an essay. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.216.244.127 (talk • contribs) .
one of the authors of this article (i don't care which author) suggests that catholics fled the north in what was perceived "communist persecution" now that that is all well and fine if it is consistent but with the parenthesis it is suggesting that persecution of catholics in the North is a propaganda or a myth which indicates a non NPOV. since rvn presidents persecution of anti-communists or anyone else are not parenthesized i have removed the previous parentheses for consistency and NPOV. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.4.79.70 (talk • contribs) .
I have edited the time zone of the South Vietnam (Republic of Vietnam) during 1955-1975. They use the time zone UTC+8, not UTC+7. During those times, North Vietnam used UTC+7 but South Vietnam used UTC+8.
In 1965 was a bombing in a civilian area classed as a terrorist act in this conflict? Cause I havn't heard of it especially from sources close to the time period. Enlil Ninlil 05:10, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
The Economy section discusses causality repeatedly with what would be called a right-wing bias if such discussion were consistently scrutinized. There's therefore no reason why the Economy section shouldn't mention the long-term affects of deliberate ecocide on an agricultural nation. Ecocide is an often overlooked part of the war. Without its mention, one might get the intended impression that non-capitalist economies are inherently flawed or that U.S. involvement was less criminal than it was. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomblikebomb (talk • contribs) 21:15, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Why is the article called South vietnam and covers the history from 1950 whilst the leadership section only covers the period of the republic of south vietnam?[[Slatersteven (talk) 14:05, 21 May 2009 (UTC)]]
Is there any particular reason that this article offers a link to a Dutch footballer at the top? --85.81.86.44 (talk) 00:45, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
This article is one of a number selected for the early stage of the trial of the Wikipedia:Pending Changes system on the English language Wikipedia. All the articles listed at Wikipedia:Pending changes/Queue are being considered for level 1 pending changes protection.
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Regards, Rich Farmbrough, 00:06, 17 June 2010 (UTC).
Doesn't this deserve to be addressed much more extensively? No details are provided at all, and both are only mentioned as part of lists. 68.200.70.196 (talk) 03:37, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
The statement that television was introduced in South Vietnam in 1999 is really dubious, as it's more than 20 years after the dissolution of South Vietnam. If typo, please fix. If it's about some government-in-exile television station, please state so. There is no reference for that claim, as well. --millosh (talk (meta:)) 15:24, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
Isn't this biased? Following this logic should Iraq, Afghanistan, Germany, and other former enemy countries also be considered American client states?--24.171.6.27 (talk) 18:16, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
But at the same time other states are labelled as "satellite states" of the USSR, and thats not biased? Come on, stop that ideological sectarianism... Unless not any state infobox contain that denominations (client state, puppet state, satellite state, etc...) and that definition is well-sourced, it must be leaved like that, as WP is all about sourced relevant content, not personal views or opinions...--HCPUNXKID (talk) 11:42, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Here, I've been asked to intervene and page-protect the article. I haven't [yet?] done that. The concern, as I understand it, is over a content dispute between editors over the infobox presentation of the status of South Vietnam during the Vietnam War as a Sovereign state, said to be the original longstanding text, vs. a Client state of the United States. A look at the article's edit history suggests that a WP:edit war may be developing over this issue. If an edit war does develop, I'll consider temporarily protecting the page and participants in the edit war can expect to be warned and possibly blocked by me or by others. I urge editors engaged in this dispute to avoid edit warring and instead to work through the issue using the WP:BRD technique to arrive at a consensus on this issue by discussion on this talk page.
I observe that the Sovereign State is said by WP to be "a nonphysical juridical entity of the international legal system that is represented by a centralized government that has supreme independent authority over a geographic area." I observe that a Client state is said by WP to be "a state that is economically, politically or militarily subordinate to another more powerful state in international affairs." It looks to me as if the choice between these characterizations would turn on the question of whether South Vietnam can be shown to have been economically, politically or militarily subordinate in international affairs to the United States during the Vietnam War period and/or whether reliable sources characterizing South Vietnam as a U.S. client state can be cited. On that second point, I see [1][2][3][4][5][6], and I hit other similar sources while googling. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 01:26, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
(added) Hmmmm... It strikes me that |status_text=
might be used in the infobox, with content something like
Also, it seems to me that the subsections of the History section should provide some clarification -- particularly the Relationship with the United States subsection.
Also, I see that |status=Client state
is allowed/supported in ((infobox former country)) but |status=Sovereign state
is not. I don't see how these complexities of the situation re South Vietnam status can fit with that template's categorization scheme. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 03:19, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
If you can't have Sovereign sate you should just have republic or what ever comparable description is befitting. Client state is far too disputed for inclusion. Accusation of being a client state etc can be in passing mentioned in the relevant section. Regards. Stumink (talk) 18:44, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
See also #RVN Status Proposal below.
RfC: Should the spelling of Vietnamese names follow the general usage of English-language reliable sources? Examples: Ngo Dinh Diem, Ho Chi Minh, and Saigon, or Ngô Đình Diệm, Hồ Chí Minh, and Sài Gòn. The RfC is here. Kauffner (talk) 14:21, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
Should there be a mention of the claimed continuation of the government of the Republic of Vietnam by the Government of Free Vietnam, who consider themselves a Government in exile?--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 13:52, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
The article syys South Vietnam was formed in 1954 but North Vietnam is stated to begin in 1945. So why aren't they reconised as seperate states from the same date? --120.151.106.44 (talk) 08:32, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
Does anyone have a link to the text of the South Vietnamese constitution in English?
The 1960s era constitution, I mean. Josh (talk) 07:41, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
See also #"Client state of the United States" above.
I approve of Wtmitchell`s proposed change to South Vietnam`s status. Nguyen1310 (talk) 01:17, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
|status=
in the infobox. It seems to me that this government was a Vassal state (or perhaps a Puppet state) of the government of North Vietnam (the Democratic Republic of Vietnam). This article (which is named "South Vietnam", remember) says that the successor to the multi-charactered RVN government was the Provisional Revolutionary Government of the Republic of South Vietnam (notice: "South Vietnam"). I'll get back to this after covering the second problem.|empire=
parameter along with (one of) Client/Puppet/Vassal (or supported synonyms) to categorize the article, placing it into Category:Former country articles requiring maintenance if it has problems. Rather than try to adapt the infobox to handle the complications here, I think it would be better to add special-case coding to ((infobox former country)) to avoid placing this article into the "requiring maintenance" category and to do the categorization (if there is any categorization to be done) here.I repeat again, my major point is that we have to made a common position for this type of issues, what is not acceptable is to avoid the client state status here but put the satellite state status on DDR, for example. That would be a clear example of POV-pushing and lack of neutrality.--HCPUNXKID (talk) 18:11, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Could anyone explain the reason for the inclusion of French and Chinese names for this former country, as well as the Chữ Nôm transliteration? Vietnamese was the only official language during the entire existence of this entity. Although Chinese was used by the fairly large population of Hoa people and French favored by the elites, both of them had no legal recognition. More importantly, the use of Chữ Nôm here is redundant as it has never been widely used by the vietnamese people themselves, let alone in official discourse. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 113.185.22.79 (talk) 12:55, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
Why don't we use the official name of Republic of VietnamAnhhunghanquoc (talk) 08:08, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: SNOW close of debate started by blocked sock operator. Timrollpickering (Talk) 18:45, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
South Vietnam → Republic of Vietnam – I think we should use the official name of the south vietnam Anhhunghanquoc (talk) 08:18, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
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@User:Mztourist. OK, now that I put this matter in the talk page. What reason is that you are reverting my edit? Twainkinky (talk) 04:05, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
User:Twainkinky was blocked as a sockpuppet of User:Albertpda on 3 March 2020. Mztourist (talk) 05:37, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
Huh, Mztourist, why would you not agree with the changes. I think that the lead is too long, un-proportional to the article's length overall.MrSimpleNg (talk) 08:53, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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Hi there, I am aware that there are no countries on Earth (except the two Chinese government PRC and ROC) that recognized the Paracel Islands being part of the Chinese territories except China-mainland and Taiwan. As the island was occupied by PRC in 1974, however, I think that we should not include the "Chinese" Paracel Islands as South Vietnam's successor here.
Again, even though I have to admit that I am Vietnamese, I believe that my message is completely neutral as no non-engaged country nor any neutral international organization recognized this as a legal part of both Chinese and Vietnamese territories. --Bdhuyvn (talk) 19:51, 19 March 2021 (UTC)Bdhuyvn
Colloquially Việt Nam at this time was referred to as Nam Việt, while North Vietnam was referred to as Bắc Việt, perhaps the intro should be changed from:
South Vietnam, officially the Republic of Vietnam (RVN; Vietnamese: Việt Nam Cộng Hòa; French: République du Viêt Nam), was a country that existed from 1955 to 1975.
To:
South Vietnam, officially the Republic of Vietnam (RVN; Vietnamese: Việt Nam Cộng Hòa; French: République du Viêt Nam), colloquially known as Nam Việt, was a country that existed from 1955 to 1975.
Note that this name is also still used in Chinese today (南越, Naam Jyut). --Donald Trung (talk) 07:44, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
Here are some valuable resources that including more military insignia if you want:
--Great Brightstar (talk) 15:25, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
This image clearly shows them as blue, I'm not sure if I have ever seen any contemporary claims that they were green. But if anyone else might know where to find more images that would be great. --Donald Trung (talk) 18:52, 16 September 2021 (UTC)