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Kluche and Jingiby, discuss it here please. Edit summaries aren't for discussion and you risk violating WP:3RR. StephenMacky1 (talk) 12:40, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The previous version of this article done by User:Идеологист linked the term modern Macedonians to the Wikipedia article Macedonians (obsolete terminology), which has 3 different meanings. I have changed the text to Macedonian Slavs, while User:Kluche linked it with a different article, i.e. ethnic Macedonians. In my opinion, everyone has a right to some extent, but a reasonable compromise must be found. I will return the text back to its initial version before the dispute. StephenMacky1, what do you think about this issue? Jingiby (talk) 13:14, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would like to clarify that the cited secondary source of Chavdar Marinov actually uses the term modern Macedonians. At the same time, in the primary source cited by Marinov, which is Grekov's 1921 article "Macedonian Art", it is stated that Alexander the Great and the brothers Cyril and Methodius were pure Macedonians of Slavic origin. Jingiby (talk) 13:48, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly, hence we should stick to reliable secondary sources - either "modern Macedonians" linking to the ethnic Macedonians article, or just ethnic Macedonians. I prefer the latter one. Best regards. Kluche (talk) 13:51, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think the context is slightly different. Marinov is referring to the modern Macedonians, but of the time when this article was written, and about which Grekov wrote. That is, while it is desirable to comply the text with the terminology that was used at the time and that was defining for the author himself. Jingiby (talk) 14:00, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You assume that Marinov is reffering to 'modern Macedonians' at the time of the article. In fact, if he meant it as such, he would have used quotation marks to clarify. Furthermore, a few sentence prior, he states "... people-who apparently were already making themselves visible-who had begun to call themselves "Macedonians" without adding "Bulgarians. This was certainly the case for another MFO activist Trifon Grekov..." - so even they were calling themselves as Macedonians in an national sense, without adding anything before or after it. Hence, we should stick to reliable secondary sources, and not assumptions. Thanks. Kluche (talk) 14:31, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think you are misinterpreting D. & M. In the term "Macedonian Bulgarians", as our Wikipedia article states, Macedonian meant region, and Bulgarian meant ethnicity. These activists from the interwar period consciously silenced their identification as Bulgarians, ie. their ethnic identity, with the aim to advocate for the region gaining independence. They thought that in the face of Greek and Serb propaganda identifying as Bulgarian was a burden to them[1] and that by identifying as simply Macedonians they would show that a supraethnic identity has matured in this diverse region of the Balkans - something that Grekov portrays as welcomed by foreign diplomats and representatives as a solution to the Macedonian question.[2] That they consciously went silent about calling themselves Bulgarians and that Macedonians for them still did not mean an ethnic identity is shown by the fact that on some occasions Grekov continued to identify himself as a Macedonian Bulgarian, as it can be seen from his 19 April 1923 article referenced on the page. Идеологист (talk) 16:38, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To clarify, in that article "Macedonian Art" he does not say about Alexander the Great that he was a Macedonian of Slavic race, he says that about St. Cyril and Methodius, while he calls Alexander simply "Macedonian". Идеологист (talk) 15:04, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Since Daskalov and Marinov do not speak more extensively on this topic and cite a secondary source, I guided myself by Grekov's article from 1922 "Alexander the Great and the Ideal of the Macedonians", in which he talks about the Macedonians in terms of the inhabitants of the region, ("It is time to put an end to these national quarrels once and for all. And let us understand that for us Macedonians, the national question does not apply; the Balkan governments have used it to justify their policy of conquest over our homeland. We must declare vehemently and before the whole world that there are no other than Macedonians in Macedonia! In an independent Macedonia everyone will be free to speak whatever language they want, to go to whatever church they want, to send their children to whatever school they want. So for us the national question is solved." [1]) therefore I linked it to Macedonians (obsolete terminology), but forgot to link it to the umbrella term subheading. Идеологист (talk) 14:38, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Again, WP:PRIMARY - Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation.
The one interpretation we have says modern Macedonians. Furthermore, in the source it says articles, so it's clearly not just the one mentioned. Best regards. Kluche (talk) 14:53, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Daskalov and Marinov also quote Grekov as saying that Macedonia is not a Bulgarian land, when in the article itself Grekov quotes Lyubomir Miletich as saying that Macedonia is a Bulgarian land and after the quote expresses his disagreement with the words "Macedonia is a Macedonian country, nothing else except Macedonian". Taking into account that Grekov talks about the ethnic and religious diversity of Macedonia in several articles, he does not say that Macedonia is an ethnically homogeneous country, but that the neighboring countries should not use those internal differences of the inhabitants of this region for their warring policy, rather they should treat all of them as Macedonians, who have the right to unite in an independent state of Macedonia and nurture their interests as such. Daskalov and Marinov talk about Grekov in three sentences, in a part of the book in which they aim to present Macedonian Bulgarians who are slowly removing "Bulgarians" from their name and fully devoting themselves to Macedonia, ie. they do not go into an analysis of these views of Grekov at all and therefore cannot be taken as the sole authority on this matter. Идеологист (talk) 15:22, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
By all means, provide another reliable secondary source on Grekov's views, since everything stated above seems slightly like OR, as it's not backed up by secondary sources. Until then, I am inclined to stand by my current view. Best regards. Kluche (talk) 15:37, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I can see, Daskalov and Marinov are the only secondary source that treat Grekov's views on Alexandar the Great and Cyril and Methodius. So, it's not like we have a lot of options here. And, as I pointed out in my reply below, D. & M. use "modern Macedonians" in a way that can hardly be interpreted as meaning ethnic Macedonians. It's a historical study and in this part of the book the 1920s use of "Macedonians" is being treated, with authors discussing its supraethnic meaning at the time. Идеологист (talk) 15:55, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. By the way, I doubt that with "modern Macedonians" Daskalov and Marinov talk about ethnic Macedonians because in the same paragraph they say that the federalists proposed to abandon the diverse ethnic designations in Macedonia and to consolidate all national elements into one entity, Macedonians, i.e. the authors hereby say that for these people "Macedonians" was not an ethnic but a supraethnic term. Идеологист (talk) 15:28, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion, in 1921, when the article in question was written, there were no Macedonians in the modern sense. There was a small group of people by whom such separatist views began to take on a clearer form. However, as Loring M. Danforth has concluded: "At the end of the World War I there were very few historians or ethnographers, who claimed that a separate Macedonian nation existed... Of those Slavs who had developed some sense of national identity, the majority probably considered themselves to be Bulgarians, although they were aware of differences between themselves and the inhabitants of Bulgaria... The question as of whether a Macedonian nation actually existed in the 1940s when a Communist Yugoslavia decided to recognize one is difficult to answer. Some observers argue that even at this time it was doubtful whether the Slavs from Macedonia considered themselves to be a nationality separate from the Bulgarians." The Macedonian conflict: ethnic nationalism in a transnational world, Loring M. Danforth, Princeton University Press, 1997, ISBN 0-691-04356-6, pp. 65-66. Jingiby (talk) 17:01, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
^In his 23 January 1922 article Grekov writes: "...First of all, the Serbian and Greek governments do not recognize the existence of the Bulgarian nationality in Macedonia; for them, the Macedonian population is Serbian or Greek. Besides, who dares to call themselves Bulgarian in our country under Serbian, Greek rule? Who dares to send their children to a Bulgarian school and go to a Bulgarian church? Do we not know that those who would have this courage expose themselves to being persecuted, imprisoned and even risk being killed?...[2]"
^Grekov reports in his 25 December 1922 article that an Italian representative he met with told him: "Just as the Italian people, after long struggles, liberated itself, so you Macedonians will gain freedom. Your activity here in Lausanne will leave traces and an impression will be made by the fact that you speak in the name of the Federative Macedonian Committee, composed of Albanians, Bulgarians, Vlachs and Turks, and by this you prove that these Macedonian peoples have united their forces to achieve the common goal - the independence of Macedonia."[3]
