The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) – MaterialWorks 16:31, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Ubuntu → Ubuntu (operating system)
• Ubuntu philosophy → Ubuntu

– To facilitate the movement of Ubuntu philosophy as this software name is just borrowing the Xhosa word; thus, it doesn’t make sense for a derivative from or a use of the word Ubuntu to lead to this article, when there is an article about the philosophy/thing itself. Again: the software is named/inspired by the philosophy; thus, the philosophy should take precedence not the software. Hence why the move request to move the philosophy to this page/name. The software name might be known in small circles but the wide use of the word is about the philosophy. FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:10, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - we have already been around that issue and the same page moves in the past. The operating system is the most used term by far globally, as the philosophy is much less well known and much less used. - Ahunt (talk) 11:35, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  @Ahunt I thought you don’t care about Google hits?

  and who cares if name derived from something is known more than original thing. Why would you put the appropriated name before the thing itself?

  A while ago I had similar arguments about the word Neger which - still - points to a german torpedo, not the slur used by some germans!

  I know this place has a geographical bias, but you want to put the “appropriated” name before the thing itself! What is going on here!

  does Apple leads to the company?

  does Hermes lead to company?

  what about Caterpillar? FuzzyMagma (talk) 13:11, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  @FuzzyMagma: Apples (the fruit) are far more popular than the company itself, it is a fruit that billions of people consume, whilist Apple only has around ~2 billion customers or so. Whether or not an article adopts a name is based on popularity of a term, product, or entity. It is not based on where something originated. Therefore your attempted point makes no sense. Ubuntu as an operating system is inherenly more popular (and meets primary criteria to boot) than the word, hence why Ubuntu goes to the operating system. - Evelyn Marie (leave a message · contributions) 05:22, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Tbh I don’t stand by my argument anymore. I think my proposal for movement came from my surprise. I use Ubuntu with a raspberry pi but always knew what the term means and what value it holds. I know this whole move is trivial and does not affect the cultural and wide impact of the philosophy, not to forget that the page about the “philosophy” itself is included in the top of this page, but I thought it would be nice to have the page for the correct term. FuzzyMagma (talk) 15:06, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  @FuzzyMagma: If you don't stand by your argument to move, please withdraw this request :) - Evelyn Marie (leave a message · contributions) 19:04, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I sometime wonder if people actually read what I write. Where did I say I don’t stand by my move request?

  i replied to your reply about a specific example FuzzyMagma (talk) 21:17, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - I have to agree with the view above. Also keep it simple. It is Ubuntu. That is what we all call it. --Bduke (talk) 11:40, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Ubuntu is what is brand is called, it’s not the thing itself. Which is South African philosophy that inspired naming this software. FuzzyMagma (talk) 14:00, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support, move in dab to baseline WP:NOPRIMARY per "Ubuntu is" test in GBooks In ictu oculi (talk) 12:12, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • see WP:GOOGLEHITS for why we don't care about Google hits. - Ahunt (talk) 12:16, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support Comment: stop this culture appropriation and whit washing of African culture. The brand was named after the philosophy. So it’s culture appropriate and white washing to put this version before the original, i.e., the philosophy FuzzyMagma (talk) 13:13, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Okay three points here: first you already nominated this move, so you don't get to iVote twice, two, the operating system was invented and named by a person from South Africa so it is not "culture appropriation" and three, it seems that you are here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, so please read that and withdraw this move request. - Ahunt (talk) 13:20, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

do you think the guy from South Africa pulled the name from his behind?

I don’t think the policy you cited is that ignorant. It require a special kind of person to equate correcting something that is wrong with being “wrong”. If you have been toying with African culture all of this time, it’s time to wake up and small the coffee. It’s not wrong to point out how fucked this is.

and please don’t drag the guy who created the brand because you just assume he wants his brand to be the face of philosophy or something. What a very convoluted argument ! FuzzyMagma (talk) 13:44, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for confirming that your motivation here is WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, regardless of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Plus please cut out the insults and read WP:AGF and WP:NPA. - Ahunt (talk) 13:50, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Where did I insult you?! FuzzyMagma (talk) 13:52, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Are we reading the same reply?

if you feel insulted, I’m sorry for that

just know nothing is personal here and this will be eventually decided by concusses. is not for me to move things, sadly when it’s as hurtful as this. But understand some people just don’t get it

common sense is not common

take care and I will stop replying to you as not make it worse

again sorry if you felt personally attacked. Was not my intention FuzzyMagma (talk) 13:56, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Strongest Possible Oppose. I'll tell you who cares if name derived from something is known more than original thing, Wikipedia does. Read the guidelines over at WP:COMMONNAME and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. We're not here to WP:RGW. The word Ubuntu is most recognizable as the name of the Linux distro, and this request doesn't even dispute that. 〜 Festucalex • talk 13:48, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  @Festucalex don’t twist my words. The argument was see WP:GOOGLEHITS for why we don't care about Google hits. - Ahunt (talk) so argue with them. Not sure how can two people can oppose the same thing using opposing arguments. This is a 5d chess FuzzyMagma (talk) 13:51, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop jumping all over each response here. Read WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:BLUDGEON which says In Wikipedia terms, bludgeoning is where someone attempts to force their point of view by the sheer volume of comments, such as contradicting every viewpoint that is different from their own. - Ahunt (talk) 13:56, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@FuzzyMagma: If you pause for a moment to take a deep breath, you'll find that Ahunt was talking about Google Hits specifically. Obviously, we do care about the frequency, but we use things like Google Ngrams for that, not Google Hits. 〜 Festucalex • talk 14:09, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Festucalex just tell me if you get my point, because I think it got lost or maybe you get my point but still disagree, which is ok

my point: the software is named/inspired by the philosophy; thus, the philosophy should take precedence not the software. Hence why the move request to move the philosophy to this page/name

That’s it

Ps: I hate when people just hide behind or tag irrelevant FuzzyMagma (talk) 14:16, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@FuzzyMagma: Yes. I understand your point, and I'm trying to tell you that guidelines specifically contradict it. From WP:PRIMARYTOPIC: Being the original source of the name is also not determinative. Boston, Massachusetts is the primary topic for Boston, not the English town from which it took its name. 〜 Festucalex • talk 14:22, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

then what is “determinative”? FuzzyMagma (talk) 14:25, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@FuzzyMagma: Pageviews Analysis and Link Count for Ubuntu and Ubuntu philosophy 〜 Festucalex • talk 14:32, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Does it count accidental page views. Above I gave the example of the page Neger. It is about a german torpedo not the n word in german FuzzyMagma (talk) 14:42, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@FuzzyMagma: I don't know, you're the one with the onus probandi to prove that the largest Linux distribution by share somehow gets a significant amount of accidental page views. 〜 Festucalex • talk 14:48, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Festucalex no we can just swap the page for a month and see. Normal scientific method if you want to check a simple hypothesis like this FuzzyMagma (talk) 14:50, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That if we both care about finding out. But yah, you can make me shoulder that burden FuzzyMagma (talk) 14:54, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Can you also cite policy for this metric please. As if it’s true it’s enforcing the geographical bias in Wikipedia and creating a circular argument, and need to be challenged but not here of course FuzzyMagma (talk) 14:49, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong oppose, possible WP:SNOW close. The software is so obviously the primary topic that there's no chance in hell this request would succeed. O.N.R. ^(talk) 17:10, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose - This is the overwhelmingly the WP:PTOPIC in English-language sources, which are the sources that matter for making such a determination among similarly-named topics on the English Wikipedia. I also have to point out that the software is named/inspired by the philosophy; thus, the philosophy should take precedence not the software is not how Wikipedia determines titles in any way, and indeed WP:DETERMINEPRIMARY specifically mentions that "Being the original source of the name is also not determinative." Enceladus is named after Enceladus (giant) yet is still the primary topic because in the English language, when someone says "Enceladus" they are overwhelmingly referring to the moon. The same is true for "Ubuntu" and this article's subject. - Aoidh (talk) 20:23, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. Just because it is currently more popular, doesn't mean it is primary topic. Walrasiad (talk) 23:11, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody said it should be primary because it is popular. However, if by "popular" you mean highly likely ... to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term then yes, per WP:PT1 that is exactly what a primary topic is. As is both true now and was well-established in the 2018 move this term was and remains what readers are looking for when they look for "Ubuntu", using the metrics of either page views or (less-ideally) Google results (GBooks example). Either way, WP:PT1 shows a clear primary topic in this article's subject. - Aoidh (talk) 23:24, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

My critical word was "currently", meaning not "long-term significance", i.e. "substantially greater enduring notability and educational value" (WP:PT2), so not primary topic. Walrasiad (talk) 00:01, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A topic need not meet both PT1 and PT2 in order to be a primary topic; meeting PT1 shows primacy in this instance, especially because neither one has any more long-term significance than the other as far as English-language usage is concerned. English-language usage of Ubuntu as a philosophical concept does not have long-term significance compared to this topic, especially outside of South Africa. Barring a single usage in a 1999 book, the article for Ubuntu philosophy lists no pre-21st century usage of the term in English, and most of the examples listed of English-language usage are after Ubuntu not only became an operating system but was already the most popular distro by any reasonable metric such as downloads or DistroWatch ranking (2005 example). Just because it is currently more popular, doesn't mean it is primary topic. may be true if you can show significance for the other topic in some other way that reasonably contests PT1, but that statement by itself is not enough to move this page. - Aoidh (talk) 00:15, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Walrasiad Ubuntu as an operating system is still significant. It is still the most used operating system that runs Linux, it receives a significant amount of coverage today, and it will more than likely proceed to do so in the long term as Linux continues to rise in popularity. I see no reason to not keep the OS as the primary topic. - Evelyn Marie (leave a message · contributions) 05:26, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Disambiguate no clear primary topic per PT#2 and the operating system has 36,908 views compared with 19,036[[1]] for the philosophy. Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:10, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Page views don't matter in terms of whether or not something is a primary topic, @Crouch, Swale - policy does not take it into consideration as to whether or not something gets a significant amount of page views. There is a severe amount of coverage on the Ubuntu operating system compared to coverage on the philosophy. Therefore, its pretty cut and dry that Ubuntu the operating system takes precedence here. - Evelyn Marie (leave a message · contributions) 05:22, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Page views count for the usage criteria of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, the more views it gets the more likely its primary by usage. Crouch, Swale (talk) 08:17, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Strongly Oppose per previous page move discussion, and the fact that title popularity is judged on how popular something is and whether or not something relating to it is consdered the primary topic. Ubuntu as an operating system is far more popular than the use of the word itself (just check English-language sources and Google), therefore, I am suggesting the aticle stay at its current title due to it meeting primary article criteria. - Evelyn Marie (leave a message · contributions) 05:22, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. No policy/guideline-based argument given by nom. Absent evidence of greater incidence, the outcome of the last RM takes precedence. Nardog (talk) 06:49, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Strong oppose The OS is clearly the primary topic, per above. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 08:06, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - Yes this move has a point since the name originated from the philosophy, but the operating system has already dominated the topic when you're typically searching for "Ubuntu". Kirbix12 (talk) 14:59, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per primary topic. Jerium (talk) 13:46, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]