This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
What little of LaRouche's ideas that actually appears in this article has been "spun" so much as to be unrecognizable. Your chances of understanding LaRouche by reading this article are nil. Instead, read LaRouche for yourself: The Substance of Morality.
Weed Harper 05:04, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)
While we hopefully give Snowspinner's mediation efforts a chance, I have removed my list from this page (it is still available at the above link), with the exception of the parts germane to the discussion of "LaRouche and the Jews." --Herschelkrustofsky 21:02, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
After all, if you wanted to get an accurate and unbiased understanding of the practices and controversies of even a mainstream political party would you talk to the candidate that is up for re-election? Of course not. On The other hand one would not ask his opponent either. An intelligent person would ask someone with absolutley no stake in the election either way. Now I apoligise if this offends Larougites but it is absolutley irrational to believe that almost every single person in power in virtually the entire industrialized world has an interest in seeing Larouge fail. More than likely, at least the vast majority of them could care less.- 67.169.170.140 06:13, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
Removing dispute tags is vandalism. If you remove a dispute tag when a dispute has not been resolved (And if you find your edits being generally reverted, it's a good sign the dispute has not been resolved), you are vandalizing the page, and you will find the entirety of your edit reverted. Furthermore, if you repeatedly remove dispute tags, you will find yourself blocked from editing.
This page has been spending far too much time protected, and the people who are causing its continual protection are either going to stop disrupting the page or stop editing Wikipedia entirely. The choice is theirs. Snowspinner 16:10, Sep 12, 2004 (UTC)
Another note here. Although the removal of the dispute tags is unacceptable, this article does have some problems with NPOV. It's not that the article shouldn't make clear the generally accepted view of LaRouche's opinions. It's that it should not make the blanket statement that they are "incoherent" or disconnected from "general reality." Regardless of personal opinions of LaRouche and his followers (Opinions, I assure you, I share with Adam and David), he has followers who do not believe him to be incoherent or disconnected from reality. Thus it is not objecctive fact that he is either of these things. Thus it is POV to state it as objective fact.
I encourage someone on the anti-LaRouche side to make a pass through this article that separates the editorial comments about the validity of LaRouche's views from the descriptions of those views. Snowspinner 19:02, Sep 12, 2004 (UTC)
I trimmed the quote at the beginning down to one paragraph, and added my own gloss. I don't know the legal distinction between a "quote" and a "copyright violation" -- perhaps Snowspinner or someone else could clue me in. Presumably there is a size limit to an acceptable quote. I am also not convinced that this quote is the best one, but I think it would be appropriate to provide a quote that more or less summarizes LaRouche's political views, since there has been a definite forest vs. trees problem here, and the Adam and Andy version seems, IMHO, designed to hide the forest altogether. --Herschelkrustofsky 02:54, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
In an effort to help mediate and calm down this dispute, I'm going to rope off some things and say "Don't do this." The list will be added to as needed. But for now, if you do any of these things, your edit will be reverted, plain and simple.
Not yet on this list, but very, very close to being on this list is insertion of flagrantly POV phrases.
Let's try to be civil here. I still encourage someone on the anti-LaRouche side to take a pass either through their own preferred version or through Herchel's preferred version and try to NPOV it instead of a revert war. Either take out the claims of "incoherence" (Or, better yet, note that they are points of view) or, probably even better, take the version that most represents the POV opposite yours and insert paragraphs explaining your POV. Snowspinner 21:05, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)
The LaRoucheite version of this article is complete rubbish, but since other people are working towards a "compromise" version of the article I will refrain for now from reverting it. HOWEVER to delete the "LaRouche and the Jews" section, which documents LaRouche's Holocaust denial, is completely unacceptable, and unless any compromise version of the article includes this section, I will revert to my last edit. And since the version currently visible to the public is grossly dishonest and misleading, I will not wait long before doing so. Adam 01:07, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
With all due respect, someone who is not educated about LaRouche, deliberately or otherwise, is in no position to arbitrate on these matters. I suggest you read the edit history of the Lyndon LaRouche article and get up to speed. In the meantime, I would like a response to my point about the "LaRouche and the Jews" section. If I am not assured that this section will be included in your compromise version, I will revert to the most recent version which does include it. This is a matter of principle on which compromise is not possible. Adam 01:41, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I would like a response to my point about the "LaRouche and the Jews" section. If I am not assured that this section will be included in your compromise version, I will revert to the most recent version which does include it. This is a matter of principle on which compromise is not possible. Adam 03:03, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Just so I can be clear on this, then, does anyone have specific and factual objections to this section? Or are they POV objections, which can be worked out much more easily. Snowspinner 03:08, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)
This is also propagandistic -- it may hold for some extreme right groups, but it does not hold for LaRouche, or any of the other many legitimate critics of Zionism. LaRouche also supports some Zionist currents, and has often referred to his friendship with Nahum Goldmann and his admiration for Yitzhak Rabin. I note that Adam chose not to include King's formulation that "British" is also a code word for "Jewish" -- perhaps that one is too over-the-top even for Adam. -- Herschel
I would agree with this. Although it can certainly be argued that LaRouche uses Zionist as codeword for Jew (although such would have to be supported), it is wrong to say that Zionist is always a codeword for Jew. john k 01:30, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Of course Zionist is not always a code-word for Jew, and I didn't say it was. I said it is "the common extreme right code word for "Jew"," which is a fact that can be amply documented (see Zionist Occupied Government for example). Adam 01:35, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
How can you prove what he means when he says it? He seems pretty crazy from what I read here, maybe when he says "Zionist" he is actually refering to the beatles ;) Sam [Spade] 01:50, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Well, it certainly can be argued with more precision than it is here - his entire conspiratorial worldview is strongly redolent of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, for instance. But you're right that we should be very careful about accusations of anti-semitism of this sort. john k 02:15, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Sam is correct that it is often impossible to know what LaRouche really means when he talks about Zionists. This is partly because he is deliberately obscure - he talks in riddles and metaphors to keep his enemies guessing. Quite possibly he doesn't know himself. We can only quote what he says and point out how these words and phrases are usually meant. And it is a fact that most people who talk about international bankers conspiracies and how Zionists rule the world are anti-Semites. If this is not LaRouche's view of the world he should say so. Adam 02:22, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I am perfectly entitled to point out what is usually meant by people who talk about Zionist conspiracies. I am not interested in responding to Herschel's wild allegations, which reflect badly only on him. Adam 05:22, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I don't think it is useful to interpret what others mean in this way. Of course you are right in many circumstances, but you can't fairly suggest it in the sweeping way in which you do, nor can you specifically prove that is what LaRouche means when he says it. Lets allow him to speak for himself, that his own words may condemn or redeem him before the reader, rather than providing our own translation of them. Sam [Spade] 17:44, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Sam's wording: The use of "Zionist" (seen by some as a code word for "Jew") is a common practice of certain groups [1][2].
The problem with this is that a sentence with a subordinate clause in brackets has to be meaningful if that clause is removed, and the statement: The use of "Zionist" is a common practice of certain groups, while true, is meaningless. Secondly, placing seen by some as a code word for "Jew" in brackets makes it incidental, whereas it is in fact central, to the point of the sentence. Thirdly "some" and "certain groups" are vague and weasely - why don't we say what we mean? Fourth references in the body of the text are ugly. What exactly is Sam's problem with the sentence as it stands? Adam 02:19, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The previous wording stated two facts: 1. In the 1970s LaRouche began making various statements about Zionist conspiracies etc , 2. that the use of the word Zionist in this sense is hallmark of anti-Semites. Do you dispute either of these facts? If not, let's just state them and let readers draw their own conclusions. Adam 03:19, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Deliberate fallacy of composition -- in 1978, the LaRouche organization published a feature article in Campaigner entitled "Zionism is not Judaism." - Herschel
14. "LaRouche also claimed that the "Zionist lobby" controlled the U.S. government and the United Nations."
Utterly false. LaRouche has accused the "Zionist lobby", by which is meant principally AIPAC and allied organizations, of pursuing a policy that is harmful to both Israel and the U.S. He has never asserted that they control the U.S. government, let alone the United Nations, which has often passed resolutions that displease AIPAC. -- Herschel
What LaRouche has said, is that the so-called Zionist Lobby -- which is not some arcane conspiracy, but rather organizations like AIPAC -- is itself controlled by more powerful interests, that care nothing for the welfare of Jews or the state of Israel.--Herschelkrustofsky 20:15, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
13. "In NCLC publications during the 1970s the Jews were accused of running the slave trade, controlling organized crime and the drug trade."
LaRouche has never accused "the Jews", nor any other ethnic or religious group, of running orcontrolling anything. He has accused Jewish-surnamed individuals such as Meyer Lansky with trafficking in narcotics, just as he has accused non-Jewish-surnamed individuals. He has never characterized "the Jews", or any other ethnic group, as controlling anything.--Herschelkrustofsky 20:15, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Great. Cite some. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I'd like to make a point, here, in the hopes of defusing an argument that I think is ultimately off-topic. I don't think it matters whether LaRouche is an anti-Semite or not. He may be. He may not be. I don't care. What I care about is that both sides of this dispute be represented evenhandedly. REGARDLESS of whether or not you think the LaRouche side is reasonable, or the anti-LaRouche side is a conspiracy. That's what NPOV means. Representing sides of an argument you think suck and are invald. So let's just take it as a given that there's a controversy here, assume that neither Adam nor Hersch are ever going to agree on whether Lyndon LaRouche is an anti-Semite, and write an encyclopedia article that includes both POVs, shall we? I mean, does anyone actually have any objections to this plan? Snowspinner 00:52, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)
The section "LaRouche and the Jews" was carefully written and moderately phrased, and seeks to set out and analyse documentary evidence pertinent to the question of whether LaRouche is or was an anti-Semite and/or a Holocuast denier. You are welcome to try to rewrite it but I will oppose any attempt to water it down or allow it to be contaminated with LaRouche nonsense such as that set out by Herschelkrustofsky above. Adam 02:58, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
What do people think of the current version? I've taken out the editorializing comments, and tried to make it so that the quotes from LaRouche speak for themselves, instead of the article saying what to think about them. I don't see much that speculates about LaRouche's motives or is dodgy in there, though if I'm missing something Herschel should feel free to point it out. But my feeling at the moment is that, yes, this section is certainly good enough to go in any version of the article. Any thoughts? Snowspinner 05:33, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)
I have no objection to Snowspinner's edit on this section. I have very strenuous objections to the LaRouche propaganda tract which Weed Harper is attempting to foist on us. Unless Snowspinner or someone else comes up with their "compromise" version very soon I will revert to the last version. Adam 08:38, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I've still not come down and said "X is the basic version." I think both versions are seriously flawed. Weed/Herschel's version, I think, has the distinct advantage of actually containing a summary of Lyndon LaRouche's political system. It contains the massive weakness, however, of not indicating A) that this system is highly controversial, B) that people outside of LaRouche's supporters tend not to find LaRouche as coherent as all that, and C) that LaRouche has taken controversial views on other issues beyond his general philosophy. Since this is an article on his views, not his philosophy, I think sections like the anti-Semitism section are very, very important to have. I also think an account of his political philosophy is important to have.
My problems with the Adam/Andy version, as I have said, is that it's a mess of POV editorial comments about LaRouche, and that its organizational structure is to move through controversial points about LaRouche instead of through LaRouche's views in an NPOV manner.
My feeling is that a "default version" would probably be an amalgamation of the two articles. I've got an incredibly busy morning ahead of me, so if someone else wants to try to merge the two articles into one version, that'd be neat. Otherwise, I'll get it this evening.
My sense would be, basically, the Hersch/Weed version followed by the Adam/Andy version, with a new introductory paragraph being inserted, and with the current lead of the Hersch/Weed version being the first paragraph of a section called "LaRouche's political philosophy," and the Adam/Andy section being titled something like "Controversial views of Lyndon LaRouche." Snowspinner 14:23, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)
I have no objection to Snowspinner or some other User not previously involved attempting to write a compromise or composite article incorporating elements of the pro-LaRouche and anti-LaRouche articles. I am not optimistic of their chances of success (it will be like trying to write an article on evolution by merging a Darwinian article and a creationist article), but I am willing to wait and see what they come up with. I am emphatically not willing that Herschelkrustofsky should be the person to undertake this task, since he is a partisan in this controversy. Adam 11:51, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Adam deleted this section, saying "it doesn't belong in the article." By the same token, Weed objected to the insertion of a paragraph of opinions about why Ramsey Clark ought not to be taken seriously, over at Lyndon LaRouche. I now believe that they are both mistaken in their judgement, based on some reading that I have done (at the suggestion of others on the talk page) about the fine points of Wikipedia NPOV policy. When opinions of someone who purports to be an expert are introduced to the article, it is fitting and proper to explore the qualifications and possible biases of the cited expert (in this case, King, Berlet, and so forth.) So, I would argue that this section belongs in the article, without question. It is definately in keeping with the Wikipedia policy of citing sources -- the reader should know something about the source. --Herschelkrustofsky 03:52, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I actually deleted it primarily because I don't believe it and won't do so until I see some independent (ie, non-LaRouche) evidence for it. Adam 04:42, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
No. Adam 07:20, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I linked the passage to an assessment by Daniel Brandt, founder of Namebase.org, who has no affiliation with LaRouche. He is discussing the "Quinde Affidavit," filed under oath by former LaRouche investigator Herbert Quinde. Quinde interviewed Berlet, Hudson and Sanders (a former editor of Business Week) about their involvement in the Train meetings. A more detailed description of the Quinde affidavit is available on this LaRouche site. In addition, Mira Lansky Boland testified under oath at a hearing during the appeals process, as to her involvement in the meetings -- I am looking for internet documentation on this. On Aug. 6, 1984, attorneys for LaRouche depositioned Dennis King. When asked about the circumstances under which he was introduced to Pat Lynch, King was silent. His attorney, Scott McLaughlin, interrupted the deposition, and took King out into the hallway for 20 minutes; when they returned, King claimed he could not recall how he had first met Lynch.
--Herschelkrustofsky 10:53, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Postscript: I note that an individual purporting to be Chip Berlet (although his writing style and POV is remarkably similar to that of Adam Carr) has just edited the article on himself, and posted to Talk:Chip Berlet. On the talk page User:Cberlet admits to attending the meetings, although he asserts that Quinde got the year of the meeting wrong. --Herschelkrustofsky 11:06, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The section is relevant to both articles, but it would seem to me to be more relevant to the article where the opnions of LaRouche's critics are most prominently featured. Incidentally, I believe that much of what AndyL has added to the various articles comes from Berlet. --Herschelkrustofsky 14:41, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I emailed User:Cberlet through his user page and it is indeed Chip Berlet himself -- not Adam Carr. BCorr|Брайен 18:05, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I removed the following addition by User:C Colden:
Perhaps it may make sense to reinsert some version of it if the follwoing questions are discussed: 1) Is there any evidence for this? and 2) If so, it is a relevant "balance" to the other material in the paragraph. BCorr|Брайен 19:32, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Weed Harper 21:22, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
LaRouche's rhetorical flourishes about Philo of Wherever are just part of his usual bullshit about how he is the heir of Franklin and Douglass and Roosevelt etc etc. It in no way balances his record of Holocaust denial and Zionist conspiracies. Adam 01:13, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Well, as I understand the NPOV policy, the objective is to provide the Wikipedia reader with enough information so that they may draw their own informed conclusions, rather than having the editors attempt to force-feed their own. --Herschelkrustofsky 13:33, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
This entire section reads like someone's personal theory, not suitable for an encyclopedia article. I inserted a "dubious" label after this: "LaRouche's political organization is built entirely around his own personality and the promotion of his words and ideas." It should be removed, because no one joins the LaRouche movement as an activist without becoming thoroughly acquainted with Henry Carey, Alexander Hamilton, Friedrich Schiller, Plato, Gauss, FDR, and so on. Weed Harper 14:42, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I am informed that Snowspinner is on a Wikivacation, which is unfortunate, because I think he had a pronounced civilizing impact on the editing here. I would like to urge editors to stick to his guidelines: provide a clear an honest rationale for each edit, and do not revert multiple edits with a single misleading edit memo. The LaRouche-related pages have made a noticeable shift towards compliance with the NPOV guidelines, and while there is much work left to be done, I hope that all parties concerned recognize that there has been progress.
--Herschelkrustofsky 21:14, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The majority of this article is not about LaRouche's views per se; it is about the characterization of his views by Berlet, King et al. Therefore the section on LaRouche's critics is appropriate and indispensable. Andy refers to the Train Salon meetings as a "fantasy," but this assertion doesn't stand up to scrutiny, particularly since Berlet himself weighed in over at Talk:Chip Berlet and admitted attending the meetings (although he offers a different characterization of what the agenda was.) The Quinde affidavit, cited in this article, is based on interviews with three different participants, one of them being Berlet. --Herschelkrustofsky
Actually Berlet used the singular, he said "meeting" not "meetings" and said nothing that supports your characterisation of them. Please provide some evidence of the content of these "meetings" or even that there was more than one get together.You post an affadavit but was this supported by the testimony of the participants? What was the court finding in regards to LaRouche's claims re the "John Train Salon" as you call it? AndyL 22:18, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Berlet admits to attending one of the meetings, but there were three different participants interviewed. The court hearing was an evidentiary hearing as part of a complicated deal around LaRouche's appeals process -- there was no verdict, just a lot of sworn testimony. I have changed the first sentence to make it fit the Daniel Brandt article in NameBase -- Adam demanded a non-LaRouche source, and one was provided. --Herschelkrustofsky 00:19, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The paragraph is misleading because, in part due to its placement, it implies that all criticisms of LaRouche flow from the "John Train Salon". In fact, much of the criticism has nothing to do with those alleged to be at the meeting. Certainaly Clara Fraser, Tim Wohlforth and various former members of the LaRouche movement were not present. Basically, what you are trying to do is use that paragraph as a disclaimer to dismiss all criticism of LaRouche as the product of some sort of conspiracy. AndyL 01:13, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I will re-write the section. However, almost all press coverage of LaRouche did in fact flow from the meetings. I had certainly never heard of Clara Fraser or Tim Wohlforth prior to your inserting their views in the article. Tell me, did you know of them before you began googling in search of anti-LaRouche citations? The high-profile critics of LaRouche are those who were present at the meetings. To my knowledge, no ex-member, however disgruntled, has ever launched a significant public attack on LaRouche -- they were solicited by King and Berlet. --Herschelkrustofsky 11:46, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
As a matter of fact, I did. Clara Fraser was co-founder and leader of the Freedom Socialist Party. I've met one or two members of that party over the years. Tim Wohlforth was leader of the Workers League in the US, a Healyite formation. I actually corresponded with him over email a few years ago over matters not relating to LaRouche. AndyL 22:27, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Andy, you deleted the section with an edit summary that consisted only of "moving." Moving to where? It ought to be in proximity to the section which propounds the views of LaRouche's critics. I have replaced it until you want to make some sort of counter-proposal.--Herschelkrustofsky 05:41, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
You should have looked at my subsequent edit. It was a two step move due to the size of the article. AndyL 05:43, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
As I said earlier you need to provide citations other than this affadavit by a LaRouche supporter. AndyL 12:35, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
--Herschelkrustofsky 15:07, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I would like to see the actual text of Boland's statement as there has been a "credibility gap" in the past between what LaRouche proponents claim and reality (see Talk:Eurasian_Land-Bridge in regards to this Turkish magazine which apparently is not the major publication you claimed it was and past claims denying that LaRouche ever said only 1.5 million Jews died in WWII). I understand you claim Boland's testimony supports the "John Train Salon" claim but I'd like to see for myself what she actually said as far as who the participants were and the purpose of the meeting(s). Given all the material the LaRouche camp has placed online I see no reason why this testimony, if it is so important, wouldn't be online somewhere so please provide a link so I can see it for myself. AndyL 15:23, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Please provide dates and newspapers/magazines/tv shows in which these stories were disseminiated. AndyL 15:56, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Given the already voluminous family of LaRouche articles, I don't think it necessary to have another on the John Train Salon. I would suggest removing the Wiki link to a yet unwritten article. --Herschelkrustofsky 14:43, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm still waiting to see a transcript of Boland's testimony. AndyL 15:35, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I don't think that there are any such transcripts online, but if you really want to read the transcript, the Schiller Institute site [6] has the information to find it: it is from the "2255 hearing" (a particular kind of hearing) in Roanoke Virginia, May 24 1990, appendix 54. Weed Harper 23:12, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
If the transcript says what you folks suggest it says I don't see why it isn't online given the eagerness of the LaRouche movement to convert documents into html.
And I fail to see the relevence of the "critics" section to an article on "Political views of Lyndon LaRouche" given that your accusations re the "John Train Salon" is that they were responsible for media accusing LaRouche of criminal activity rather than for producing a political critique. What does a reference to NBC running an piece on assassinations have to do with "Political views of Lyndon LaRouche"?AndyL 01:02, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I am inclined to agree with you about the NBC pieces being not particularly relevant, but they do establish that a significant amount of the post-Illinois election coverage was in fact just a further extension of the Train Salon activity. The main relevance of the Train Salon meetings is that they were responsible for the sudden media prominence of Dennis King and Chip Berlet, who graduated from High Times to the big leagues. Most of what is offered in the article as a "political critique" comes from King and Berlet. --Herschelkrustofsky 11:51, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Can we remove the NPOV notice now?AndyL 21:49, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
On October 10, 2004, 4 months of intensive edit warring over the content of this and related articles were resolved through compromise. The previous discussion on this talk page has been archived at Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/archive1. I sincerely hope that future editing of this article can be done in conformity with Wikipedia NPOV policy. --Herschelkrustofsky 12:51, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Im suprised that this page doesn't talk about certain things. I picked up what appeared to be a LaRouce written magazine which appeared to set forth his political outlook, and essentially it sayed that FDR was the best president and laid down what might be called a "conspiracy" theory that politicians afterwards were influenced away from FDR's direction by this group of people associated with this international meeting, one I had never heard about before. Can anyone chime in on this?
I can't remember the name of it at all, but it took place back in the era of black and white pictures ;). What I read basically said it was these men at that meeting who eventually got control of the government and instigated that bread and circuses that is the 60's with programs like MKULTRA.
So if, at least in the present views of LaRouche, the CCF is like the center of the conspiracy, how does that gel with like the others mentioned in this article, such as Rockefeller, etc.?
The purpose of the first section of the article is to present LaRouche's core beliefs and provide a summary of his world view. The "conspiracy theory" section comes under "criticism of LaRouche" because it is a discussion of things that LaRouche may actually have said, which his opponents believe fall under the pejorative category of "conspiracy theories."
SlimVirgin has inserted the material from Take a Break magazine into this section, and then tried to move the entire section into the "core beliefs" portion of the article, because he wishes to assert that it is just unforgiveably wacky and iconoclastic to suggest that the world's weathiest and most visible aristocratic family acts like a bunch of overdressed refugees from The Godfather, even to the point of "bumping off" its perceived enemies[7], and that anyone (such as Princess Diana herself) who would suggest such a thing must be avoided, ridiculed, banned from Wikipedia, or dealt with even more harshly. It is for this reason that Slim's latest contribution belongs under "criticism of LaRouche." I am leaving the NPOV dispute tag up until there is a consensus on this topic. --Herschelkrustofsky 12:37, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The structure came about as a result of the mediation of Snowspinner, which ended four months of incessant edit wars. The first section of the article is comprised of views of LaRouche that his supporters, such as myself, consider most important. The second section is comprised of views, or in some cases alleged views, that anti-LaRouche activists such as yourself, Slim, prefer to emphasize. I have re-worked the subject headers to make this more explicit. Please do not move your edits into the first section without first presenting an argument on this talk page as to why the present structure is unfair or misleading. The present structure came about as a result of much hard work and compromise. --Herschelkrustofsky 16:14, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)