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Strange Sentence[edit]

Here it is "The East Roman Empire, later called the Byzantine Empire, continued for a millennium, while the West Roman Empire lasted for only about a century and a half. This caused people in the Latin West to envy the Greek east and consider the Christians over there as heretics." The implication that the Great Schism was caused by "envy" for the Byzantine Empire is bizarre, and not reflected in the source cited at the end of that second sentence. The Pope officially excommunicated the Patriarch of Constantinople (and vice versa), which is a far cry from "people" considering the Christians "over there as heretics." Needs to be rewritten or struck entirely. 198.137.18.173 (talk) 19:40, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Rim sim (talk) 13:20, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What „aformentioned country“?[edit]

Running parallel to the rise of the United States as a great power and the development of communication–transportation technologies "shrinking" the distance between both the Atlantic Ocean shores, the aforementioned country became more prominently featured in the conceptualizations of the West.

Do they mean the US? Why would they be so convoluted about this? I'd just correct it, but I'm unsure if I'm missing something. Julia947 (talk) 20:58, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]


Orthodox civilization is not part of the West[edit]

Some people (especially newly registered user:Wrehhn try to remove tat sources/referenced material, just because they don't like the content.

"The earliest concept of Europe as a cultural sphere (instead of simple geographic term) was formed by Alcuin of York during the Carolingian Renaissance of the 9th century, limited to the territories that practised Western Christianity at the time. "European" as a cultural term did not include much of the territories where the Orthodox Church represented the dominant religion until the 19th century"--Pharaph (talk) 12:15, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, the statement was about Europe, not the West. It was removed because it is insignificant, and not a widely-held perspective. It oversimplifies the vast and complex history of European culture. Notably, it overlooks the substantial contributions of the Eastern Roman Empire to wider European culture. It also favours a Western European perspective of European culture over an Eastern European perspective, and implies Eastern Europe's perception of itself as part of wider European culture was somehow invalid. The influence of cultural movements such as the Italian Renaissance extended to parts of Eastern Europe, including Russia, and the Baroque style which emerged in the 17th century, influenced architecture in eastern parts of Europe. In part due to the westward migration of Slavic tribes, eastern Central Europe shares strong cultural affinities with countries to its East, and the migrating tribes brought with them cultures from further East. The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth witnessed significant cultural exchange over the course of its existence. Futhermore, Greece significantly influenced the conceptualisation of Europe, and the contributions of Greece were integral in the development of wider Western culture and thought. Wrehhn (talk) 12:26, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]


It is not a perspective, but the only perspective. Orthodox countries were not considered European by cultural terms, due to the fact, that they are Eurasian or Semi-Asian countries culturally, transition between European and Various asian cultures.

The culture of Byzantine Empire slowly moved away from the classical European Greco-Roman traditions and increasingly adopted Asian styles and customs, which is reflected in its administrative system, clothing, architecture, fine arts and sculpture. A medieval Western European would have seen Byzantines as part of a completely foreign culture, half-Asian. Renaissance has never extended to Orthodox Eastern Europe, but stopped at the Western Christian Central Europe. There was no Renaissance naither humanism in Russia in the original sense of the term. See Gary Saul Morson: Russian Literature article of the Encyclopedia Britannica LINK: https://www.britannica.com/art/Russian-literature


" Baroque style which emerged in the 17th century, influenced architecture in eastern parts of Europe." Just because Peter the Great imported some French architects to design palaces and some churches in the great cities? The first really Russian designed (not French German or Italian architects) baroque buildings appeared in the late 18th century.

What about the Balkan states Romanian principalities Bulgaria Serbia? They adopted Western architecture in the second half of the 19th century as JAPAN.

Japan culture adopted some Western architectural styles , but it does not make it part of Western culture.


There are English Baroques buildings in India too. See: https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&sca_esv=591216765&sxsrf=AM9HkKny8F4OoFpYhoFYw9v8g2d0urmX6A:1702647837924&q=baroque+buildings+in+India&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjw-bm8yZGDAxUhiP0HHcgYCsgQ0pQJegQIEBAB&biw=1559&bih=2068&dpr=1#imgrc=XOYxFLnrFAjBEM

Does it make India a Western country?


"eastern Central Europe shares strong cultural affinities with countries to its East" Itself the simple fact "sharing a common Slavic language " does not make the culture of Central European Czech Republic similar to Russian or Serbian.


"Commonwealth witnessed significant cultural exchange" The real extent and intensity of that cltural exchange is debatable, it worked well only in the territories where Western Christian communities lived as a majority in Lithuanian territories.--Pharaph (talk) 13:50, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What about real Urbanization, industrialization and literacy? In Orthodox countries real urbanization started with the cheap Soviet style ferro-concrete block-of-flat building programmes in the communist period. Real industrialization also happened during the communist period.


Literacy: Early 20th century was the era of submarines, aeroplans, theory of Relativitry, the Radio, Telephone and Automobile

In contrast: in the eve of the First World war, vast majority of the population of Orthodox countries could not even read and write in their own mother tongues! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pharaph (talk • contribs) 14:00, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Your ideology is false. There is plenty of overlapping between these cultures, and based upon your knowledge of various topics, I imagine you are in fact well aware of this. I am struggling to understand your motivation for denying the fascinating history of cultural exchange between these various regions. Dividing Europe culturally along the lines of Eastern and Western Christianity is just one perspective, with countless limitations. The Eastern European origins of Slavic Central European countries shouldn't be reduced to their language. For many, these roots are of cultural relevance in the present day, even though this may not appeal to your ideology. Moreover, not only were there historical Slavic migrations in Central Europe, there were also Turkic and Eurasian migrations to southeastern Central Europe, and southeastern Central Europe became part of the Pannonian Avar Khaganate in the early Middle Ages. Southeastern Europe, Eastern Europe and southeastern Central Europe also have a rich history of Romani migration. Furthermore, eastern Central Europe has a long history of Jewish settlement. Despite being predominantly Catholic, the countries of Croatia and Slovenia have a history within the Balkans cultural region that consists of predominantly Orthodox and Islamic countries. Central Europe has long been a point of interaction between Eastern and Western cultures, and Orthodox and Islamic European countries are part of the wider mosaic of European culture. Wrehhn (talk) 16:10, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Calling simple facts, hard facts as ideology means you must read the mening of these words: First article: ideology Second article: fact. For example: Panslavism is an ideology, based on racist belief systems.

"culturally along the lines of Eastern and Western Christianity" It is not about the religion itself, but the civilization which crystalized around them.

Orthodox is a separate civilization according to historians and social scientists. There are thousands of books mention that simple fact, take a Google Books search: [1]]

"these roots are of cultural relevance in the present day" Panslavist and pan nationalist ideologies are quite young, they appeared in the 19th century. However pannationalism could not change the long historic differences in economic infrastructural cultural societal technological legal etc.. developments between Slavonic speaker countries.

For better understanding the huge differences, learn about it in this short essay, especially memorize the 16 points. [2]

Do you know what Europeanization meant in Orthodox countries in the 19th and early 20th century? Read about the term in Google Books: https://www.google.com/search?q=europeanization+orthodox&client=firefox-b-d&sca_esv=591263652&tbs=cdr:1,cd_max:1990&tbm=bks&sxsrf=AM9HkKnxqaORtGgztuDDJvof7JB8BLbrUA:1702663178597&ei=CpR8ZcH8I-GlwPAPkpyemAI&start=10&sa=N&ved=2ahUKEwjBqbrPgpKDAxXhEhAIHRKOByMQ8NMDegQIDhAW&biw=1559&bih=2073&dpr=1

Europeanization also mean an experiment and trend in Orthodox countries (Russia and the Balkans) catching up with and becoming similar to the Western Europe in terms of political system, social system, culture, dress codes, artistic styles, economy, infrastructure, technology, and basic rules of behaviour from the 19th century to first half of the 20th century.--Pharaph (talk) 18:13, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 30 December 2023[edit]

Western civilization is mostly defined by a mix of Greek-Latin background (philosophy and values) and Christianity. By these, Romania, Greek, etc is definitely a western country. Your edit is kinda bad and unaccurate. Pleas be kind and fix this. 2001:999:404:2A40:8706:AD1E:B6FE:4013 (talk) 09:09, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Where does it say that Romania and Greece aren't western countries? Liu1126 (talk) 12:14, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Definition[edit]

The reference supporting the opening sentence - the definition of the West - is an opinion piece published in the "INTERCOLLEGIATE REVIEW", whatever that publication is. We need an authoritative WP:SECONDARY source for something this important. 14.2.196.234 (talk) 11:59, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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