Ireland Template‑class

This template is within the scope of WikiProject Ireland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IrelandWikipedia:WikiProject IrelandTemplate:WikiProject IrelandIreland articles Template This template does not require a rating on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.

Towns exist which do not have town councils. Examples are Kanturk ("a town in the north west of County Cork" – Wikipedia), Mitchelstown ("a town in County Cork" – Wikipedia; second clue: the "town" suffix in the name, Mitchelstown), Charleville ("a town in north County Cork" – Wikipedia), and Dunmanway ("a town in County Cork" – Wikipedia). In each of these cases, Wikipedia defines the towns as towns, which do not belong in the village section of the county template. Also, it is important to be civil to other editors in Wikipedia and not to make personal remarks or insult them in edit summaries (example: "Which part of X do you not understand?"). Please refer to the official policy on this matter. — O'Dea (talk) 10:27, 1 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, Wikipedia articles can't be uzed as sources. Secondly, a settlement doesn't qualify as a town just by having the word "town" in its name. We can't hav editors or the general public making-up their own definitions of townhood; we must go by the government definition. In the 6 Counties, a town is any settlement with at least 4,500 dwellers. What is the 26 County government's definition of a "town"? ~Asarlaí 22:26, 1 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You cannot seriously say that Mitchelstown is a village. Have you ever been there? — O'Dea (talk) 22:35, 1 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)Yes, I have been there. Yes, it is as big as a Dutch village. But legally, it is not a town.

See for the definition of a town (and other entities) the Local Government Act 2001. Pages 188 and 195-197 are the most interesting as they list the cities and towns. Mitchelstown is not listed as town or city. The Banner _talk 22:55, 1 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

See also: Cities/Towns Boundaries as used for the Census. The Banner _talk 22:59, 1 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What I'm saying is that we need an official standard. We can't go about deciding what is and isn't a town willy-nilly. ~Asarlaí 22:46, 1 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the amusing irony, Asarlaí. You chided me for using Wikipedia as a source ("Wikipedia articles can't be uzed as sources"), and proceeded to do it yourself ("a town is any settlement with at least 4,500 dwellers"). — O'Dea (talk) 16:41, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As the article says, that's the definition given by the Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency (NISRA). The source is NISRA, not a Wikipedia editor. ~Asarlaí 18:10, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And damn the citation provided, so it is "just" a Wikipedia statement. — O'Dea (talk) 20:59, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Part 17 of the Local Government Act, 2001, section (2) (a) states, "Qualified electors of a town having a population of at least 7,500 as ascertained at the last preceding census or such other figure as the Minister may from time to time prescribe by regulations, and not having a town council, may make a proposal in accordance with paragraph (b) for the establishment of such a council."

Here we see that towns with populations of at least 7,500 may establish a town council. The Act does not say, however, that a settlement of fewer than 7,500 is not a town, nor that a town without a council is not a town, either. Indeed, the Central Statistics Office refers to as many as 664 towns in the state, meaning an average of almost 26 towns per county.

The distinction between towns and villages is not always clear, as indicated by the opening of the Wikipedia town article: 'A town is a human settlement larger than a village but smaller than a city. The size definition for what constitutes a "town" varies considerably in different parts of the world, so that, for example, many "small towns" in the United States would be regarded as villages in the United Kingdom, while many British "small towns" would qualify as cities in the United States.'

I have consulted the places defined as "towns and cities" in County Cork by the Central Statistics Office to avoid being "willy-nilly", and they are as follows: Bandon, Bantry, Blarney, Carrigaline, Carrigtwohill, Charleville, Clonakilty, Cloyne, Cobh, Cork, Crosshaven, Dunmanway, Fermoy, Kanturk, Kinsale, Macroom, Mallow, Midleton, Millstreet, Mitchelstown, Passage West, Rathcormac, Skibbereen, Tower, and Youghal. I have adjusted the template accordingly. — O'Dea (talk) 16:29, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Don't you think that using the definition used bij the law is of greater value then that of the statistics office? The Banner _talk 19:03, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The law does not agree with the opinion you are advancing; towns without councils are recognised as valid towns. Things may be different in your country, but this is the case in Ireland. The Wikipedia Town article, section Town#Ireland, already describes how the Irish Central Statistics Office offers an official administrative definition of "town". This entry in the article precedes our dispute, and I did not write it. Also, you were the one who cited the Central Statistics Office in your comment at 22:59, 1 October 2012, above, so it is inconsistent to argue, as you did in your latest edit summary ("revert POV-editing"), that the CSO definition cited in my edit summary ("Adjusted places defined as "towns and cities" in County Cork by the Central Statistics Office (http://census.cso.ie/censusasp/saps/boundaries/city-towns_bound.htm") is invalid. You are contradicting yourself. Please stop reverting corrective and officially verified edits to the template. — O'Dea (talk) 17:10, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]