Politics Template‑class Low‑importance

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Discrimination Template‑class

This template is within the scope of WikiProject Discrimination, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Discrimination on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DiscriminationWikipedia:WikiProject DiscriminationTemplate:WikiProject DiscriminationDiscrimination articles Template This template does not require a rating on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.

For anyone coming here from my edit summary or elsewhere, there is an ongoing discussion about whether Trumpism should be classified as fascism at Talk:Trumpism#RFC: Should the fascism template be included in the article?. Please discuss this subject there instead of going back and forth in the edit logs. ~Cherri of Arctic Circle System (talk) 11:59, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No! That is absurd. It is an extremely one-sided viewpoint and is espoused by an extremely small group of extremists. I will say no more here, and thank you for linking to the appropriate place to comment. By the way, Arctic Circle System, you've done a good job with this template. You are vigilant and impartial from what I can tell so far!--FeralOink (talk) 14:12, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@FeralOink: I wouldn't say that viewpoint is limited to an extremely small group of extremists and would personally argue that the movement is at least heavily linked with modern fascist movements in the United States via the alt-right, but I am not qualified to say much more on the subject. I do appreciate the compliment though. Arctic Circle System (talk) 01:00, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It seemed a bit more prominent than just being espoused by an extremely small group of extremists from what I remember, though I'll admit my memory isn't great, and I think I might be thinking of discussion of his links with the alt-right in general rather than neo-fascism specifically. Arctic Circle System (talk) 01:02, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome for the compliment, Arctic Circle System! This is a very contentious topic, and I see from the page history that you've been responsible and diligent. Also, you're right, about a lot of prominent people describing Trumpism as fascist (although I don't think many of the 60 or 70 million Americans who voted for him in the 2020 election consider him to be). Regardless, I made my opinion known on the linked discussion page, which hadn't seen a new entry since April 2023. I just don't want Donald Trump himself to show up in the fascism template by name lol! At least, not without consensus but I'd rather not even think about it for now. Also, I think you're correct about associating some figures on the alt-right with fascism, although Trump has no allegiance to them. We won't list Kanye as an American fascist either for now (double lol!)--FeralOink (talk) 05:54, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lots of names in the "People" part of the template have articles which do not call them fascists. As the template is very large, I am going to boldly remove some of them, but obviously if there isn't consensus they can be returned.

• I've started with Fejzi Alizoti, part of the Albanian government for decades from WWI, who was briefly a fascist collaborator but not a fascist.
• I'm also removing Jean-Bosco Barayagwiza, whose article does not include the word fascism. If he is belongs here, that article should be edited first and then he could be included. The same is true of Gnassingbé Eyadéma, Mobutu Sese Seko, Francisco Macías Nguema (dictators), Robert Kajuga (Interahamwe), Protais Mpiranya, Hassan Ngeze, Ildéphonse Nizeyimana, Callixte Nzabonimana, Georges Rutaganda (Rwandan genocidaires).

BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:49, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Most of the names under Asia seem likewise out of place. I'm leaving the following but welcome other editors' views: Abba Ahimeir might fit but he is quite a non-noteworthy figure historically. I'm doubtful about Dariush Forouhar, Rashid Ali al-Gaylani, Abd al-Qadir al-Husayni, Abol-Ghasem Kashani, Syngman Rhee. I'm removing the following: Hasan Arfa was a Pahlavi soldier and doesn't appear to have been a fascist; other Iranians here that don't seem to be fascist include Zia ol Din Tabatabaee, Dariush Homayoon. Chen Gongbo and Chiang Kai-shek were nationalist but not fascist. Andrés Soriano seems to be here totally arbitrarily. There's not enough in Yun Chi-young's article to justify fascism or noteworthiness. BobFromBrockley (talk) 12:50, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Moving on to Northern Europe, am removing the following, who don't appear justified per their pages: Wäinö Aaltonen, Reino Ala-Kulju (possibly fascist although his page doesn't say so, but not noteworthy enough), Väinö Auer, David Mitford, 2nd Baron Redesdale (flirted with fascism, but not significant enough in the story of fascism to include), Yrjö Kilpeläinen, Yrjö Kilpinen, Juhani Konkka, John Mackie (Scottish Unionist politician) (too insignificant), J. J. Mikkola. I'm not removing the following, but would be curious about other editors' view: Thomas F. O'Higgins (sympathetic to fascism for a while). BobFromBrockley (talk) 13:12, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Same for Eastern Europe. Removing: Dmytro Klyachkivsky, Yevhen Konovalets, Vasyl Kuk, Andriy Melnyk (officer), Roman Shukhevych, Slavko Štancer, Mykola Stsiborskyi, Shefqet Vërlaci - all either not verifiable from their articles and/or not noteworthy enough in relation to the story of fascism. BobFromBrockley (talk) 13:55, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@BobFromBrockley: Isn't the Hutu Power movement often considered fascist? If that's not the case, then feel free to go through with removing them.

However, I think Abba Ahimeir should stay, as he was the founder of the Revisionist Maximalist movement and leader of Brit HaBirionim, a fascist movement in Mandatory Palestine. In addition, Dmytro Klyachkivsky was verifiably part of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, a fascist paramilitary formed as part of OUN-B and was responsible for the ethnic cleansing of Poles from Volhynia. I'd say that's pretty noteworthy. Besides that, the infobox is for articles on the subject of fascism and fascists. As long as they were notable, at least in part, for involvement in fascist movements, it's enough for them to be included. Roman Shukhevych's article also has sources for him being a leader of the UPA and collaborating with the Nazis. Mykola Stsiborskyi was the chief theorist of the OUN before its split, and stated that he admired Mussolini's fascism and stated that he was a national syndicalist. Juhani Konkka founded the National Socialist Union of Finland with Yrjö Ruutu. I think they at least are noteworthy enough to remain on the list.

There are some I'm less sure about. Hasan Arfa was apparently the leader of the Aria Party, though his page needs more explanation on that. Francisco Macías Nguema was a self-described "Hitlerian-Marxist" who admired Adolf Hitler and Francisco Franco before committing genocide against the Bubi minority and intellectuals. However, it should be noted that his words and actions were so erratic in general that it's a bit difficult to tell for sure what he meant when he said things like that. I do think his article should at least be added to the related articles section. As for the rest, feel free to remove them. ~Chara of Arctic Circle System (talk) 18:50, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think there's two issues: (1) if someone is uncontroversially described as a fascist, and (2) if someone is noteworthy enough to be in the list (which is obviously never going to be an exhaustive list of all fascists).

• Hutu Power might meet no.2 but I'm not sure it meets no.1: I have no strong feelings on this, but a quick search suggests to me that it isn't widely described as fascist (this opinion piece is the only thing that looks like an RS), and certainly our current article does not call it that. If it is, somebody needs to edit our related pages with sources before we can include it here I think.
• Abba Ahimeir fits the fascism depiction, but my concern was how noteworthy he is; if Brit HaBirionim is indeed important he should stay. Same with Juhani Konkka.
• Roman Shukhevych's article says he collaborated with the Nazis, but many collaborators were Nazis. His article doesn't call him a fascist. The UPA article has fascist in the infobox but no source, but it would be synthesis to extend that to him without a source. Mykola Stsiborskyi admired fascism but was not himself a fascist - I just edited his article based on the primary source cited, but his article could do with secondary sources, especially for such a contentious label. BobFromBrockley (talk) 17:58, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@BobFromBrockley: If Abba Ahimeir and Juhani Konkka aren't important enough to meet notability guidelines, then the talk page for this template isn't the best place to resolve that, I'd say. ~Strawberry of Arctic Circle System (talk) 19:38, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think that Miklos Horthy sholdn'n be on the list either, he attacked Hungary fascist movement hard and be described as a national conservativer more often. Weirongn (talk) 01:11, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Trakking: I'm not so sure Andrei Dmitriev (politician) should've been removed from the template. He's certainly relevant enough to have an article and he's one of the leaders of The Other Russia of E. V. Limonov, so I think he's relevant enough to the history of fascism to have a place in the template. Arctic Circle System (talk) 19:58, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No, he’s way too obscure to qualify for representation. His article generates less than 10 views a day and it has only been translated to two other languages. Nobody knows about this guy. Trakking (talk) 20:05, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't recall an article's daily pageview and translation count being a criteria for inclusion in relevant navboxes. If you want to discuss whether he is notable enough to have an article, this is not the place to do it. Take it to the talk page of the article itself or Wikipedia:Articles for deletion. Arctic Circle System (talk) 07:05, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Request to add

• Hideki Tojo 223.25.74.34 (talk) 11:30, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done Please establish a consensus for inclusion of this material. Rotary Engine ^talk 12:32, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure where the line should be here. Arctic Circle System (talk) 11:37, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good question; I'd say at least five but preferably six or seven, because a plethora of short lists would give the template an awkward look.

Just make sure the people added are fairly notable. Some people are extremely obscure judging by factors such as meagre articles with no sources, articles that exist in a very low number of languages (1-5), very low pageviews etc. They simply do not qualify for representation, if the list is supposed to remain concise and relevant.

Then there's the question of inclusion. Were Carl Schmitt and Francisco Franco true fascists? Scholars usually identify them as exponents of authoritarian conservatism, which is a separate ideology—more elitist, more pre-modern. Trakking (talk) 12:14, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Trakking:I can't say I'm too confident one way or another, honestly. Arctic Circle System (talk) 19:48, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Carl Schmitt was a member of the Nazi party, so if he's not a fascist nobody is. Death Editor 2 (talk) 04:15, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

IF you use membership in the Nazi party as a criteria for fascists to be added to the template, all sorts of people will need to be added, including lots of people from the Ukraine (which reminds me that I need to check if Stepan Bandera is included). I'm not sure about Schmitt. Schmitt should be included. Francisco Franco is known as a fascist, although I concur with what Trakking said. We should probably be consistent with what is in their WP biographies, too.--FeralOink (talk) 14:09, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Three were pre-existing in the Other group, and I added one. I will look to see if I can find any additions. Four seems to be sufficient for a country entry. Also, with the visibility of Ukraine and fascistic ideologues in western Ukraine recently (e.g. Yaroslav_Hunka scandal in Canadian Parliament) it seems remiss not to break out separately. FeralOink (talk) 15:05, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you think Augusto Pinochet (Chile) and Alberto Fujimori (Peru) should be in the People section of fascists? Pinochet's article has a whole section on how he was fascistic but the conclusion seems to be he is a "neoliberal". I am spending too much time on fascism so I'm just going to leave this thought for the consideration of those who follow. FeralOink (talk) 15:16, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The term fascism gets thrown around a lot, but neither Pinochet nor Fujimori was a fascist according to the standard criteria set by Stanley G. Payne and other experts on fascism. The populist, revolutionary, utopian nationalism, which is at the core of fascism, did not manifest itself in Pinochetism and Fujimorism. Both leaders espoused neoliberalism—an ideology diametrically opposed to the totalitarian fascist state. Trakking (talk) 17:29, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]