With regard to the massive influx...
- Group title change:
- Characters to Supporting characters - Since the bulk of the section is the supporting cast.
- Supporting characters
- Doctor Strange - His own character, has appeared in story with Hulk but is not dependant on that character.
- Hercules - Avengers related character, at best (or worst depending on POV)
- Sentry - Avengers related character, at best (or worst depending on POV)
- Hulk - Already the title link for the 'box
Generally a navbox should not be a platform for any character that appeared with the subject character. Lets try and keep it to the characters from the various self-titled runs.
- Absorbing Man - Thor signature villain, not Hulk.
- Wendigo - Wolverine/Alpha Flight villain.
- Glorian - Fantastic Four character, at best. General MU character at worst.
- Juggernaut - X-Men villain.
- MODOK - SHIELD and Iron Man villain at best.
- Nightmare - Doctor Strange villain.
Generally a navbox should not be a platform for any character that opposed the subject character. Lets try and keep it to the recognizable, A-list signature foes.
- Glenn Talbot - Used primarily as a antagonist for Banner, not a support.
- Thunderbolt Ross - Given the variation of the character over time, it could be place with Talbot in the "Foes"
- Inclusion - Are these really core characters or primary signature foes?
- John Ryker
- Galaxy Master
- <br> removed. This created an unexplained, unnatural sort pattern. restored alphabetic sorting.
- J Greb (talk) 23:20, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- thanks for the invite... I'd drop the Hulk hands and nom that for AfD as non-notable promotional stuff, and I wonder if we shouldn't discuss notable creators, and retitle it as writers and artists, or something, given Peter David's 15 year run, Mantlo's durable effects, and maybe a couple others... but that gets subjective, so maybe not? but the hulk hands can go, as can the roller coaster, I think. ThuranX (talk) 23:33, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- I'm inclined to agree with the above. Wendigo did appear in Hulk first, but then so did Wolverine. I'm not sure which title Wendigo has appeared in more often. As the navbox stands now, it somewhat resembles the TOC from OHTOMU: Hulk 2004. That's OK, but it may not be the best historical overview of the Hulk. I'd definitely put Ross into the "Villains" section; that has been his usual function in the stories. --GentlemanGhost (talk) 23:39, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- There's been a fair bit of resistance to including other wirters and artists to the 'box by name. The best solution I've seen the the one from the Batman template: Putting the later writers, like David, itno a list article and adding that to the 'box. It prevents a "piling on" effect.
- I can see yanking the Hands and 'coster, if those articles are turffed as the result of an AfD. Otherwise, they fit where they are.
- But I think I'll flip Ross... GG's comment rings very true. - J Greb (talk) 00:01, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- I've put a note on the 'Hands about AfD'ing it. I'll give it a few days, then follow up. I'm wondering about recentism and scale for supporting characters. Betty, Rick, and Doc Samson have decades-long associations with the character, Jim Wilson's death from HIV can probably be supported via external citations, perhaps in various gay oriented magazines which might have done pop-culture pieces; I know Northstar's had real-world coverage. However, Caiera and Excello are recent additions, both of whom have only had a few storylines. I'd have to wonder if we shouldn't have some standard for them. Similarly, Abomination, Hulkbusters, Leader, Maestro, Thunderbolt Ross, Glenn Talbot all have lengthy, durable histories with the character, while Agamemnon, Bi-Beast, Madman, Mercy, Gamma Corps, Galaxy Master, John Ryker, Tyrannus, U-Foes, Xemnu, and Zzzax all suffer from either serious dustbunnies on a back shelf(BiBeast, Xemnu, Zzzax), or recentism (Ryker, Gamma Corps). The most recent characters really need to 'percolate' before their long-term relation to the character is firm. Just me and wanting to strip it down and avoid recentism. ThuranX (talk) 03:16, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- "Recentism" is a two edged blade - the material should not be biased towards or against recent story elements. In a case like this, pulling a heavily used character just because it is from recent or current stories is as bad as pulling a long term character that hasn't been used in a decade. - J Greb (talk) 04:08, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Hercules has recently been included in the Hulk family, but agreed that the connection is very loose, and Sentry was retroactively added as a supposed major element, and very good friend, but hasn't really been in many Hulk stories.
Doctor Strange is arguably the self-sustained major Marvel hero most connected with the Hulk, due to their time in the Defenders, but if being a string-on character is a necessary quality for inclusion he should go as well.
Absorbing Man, Juggernaut, Modok and Nightmare were introduced elsewhere, but have played the parts of major adversaries or sparring-partners over the years, but if weeding is necessary they're good candidates, especially Modok, although I orginally intended to segment between 'primary' and 'secondary' rows.
Wendigo was introduced as, and has traditionally been considered a Hulk villain, with recurrent match-ups, so disagreed. Wolverine has the roughly same relationship to this creature as Hulk has to the Absorbing Man. I'm not sure if it has even fought Alpha Flight beyond that X-Men team-up.
Thomas Gideon was introduced in FF, but Glorian has always been a Hulk 'foe', so disagreed.
Bereet was a major supporting character and brief love interest way back, so it's ambivalent, but given lack of other 'good' supporting characters it might be an idea to keep her.
Madman was introduced in Hulk, and used as a major villain, but only twice. He does however have very good potential, given the lacklustre quality of most of the, non-extended, rogues gallery.
Mercy has been a very recurrent semi-adversary over the years.
John Ryker, like Madman, was only in two storylines, but played the part of a major antagonist in these.
Galaxy Master is a very old foe, that I don't personally care for, but one of the most powerful, and was very important for the storylines it was featured in.
Xemnu is one of Hulk's most original villains, even if it hasn't appeared so much, and, in addition, is one of the She-Hulk's main foes.
As an additional note: Should Scorpion/Carmilla Black be featured in the supporting cast, given that it's hinted that she is Bruce Banner's daughter, and she's been featured in two recent Hulk storylines?
While he has only been the main antagonist in two storylines, Armageddon is another of the Hulk villains I'd technically like to see added to the villains roster, given the power-level, reach, sworn vendetta, and connection to Trauma, but the character has no entry as of yet. Dave (talk) 14:21, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- In summary, Wendigo, and Glorian should definitely be kept. Armageddon and Scorpion would be nice as well. Possibly Juggernaut, Absorbing Man and Nightmare, but if each character is limited to one grouping, I suppose they should go into their introduction families. There is also the problem of weeding too thin. The Hulk has a rather limited, and seldom-used, rogues gallery as is. It's preferable to at least showcase what little the character has, old, recent, or tastefully aged, whatever the last category may subjectively entail. The Thor template, to use an example, is certainly no different in this regard.
- It's better to stick with the ones that have played a significant role, and are associated with the character, or play a current main role for those newly interested. According to the recent "World Without a Hulk" She-Hulk storyline The Leader, Abomination, Wendigo, Zzaxx, and U-Foes are considered his 'classical' trademark villains, or at least those most easily seamlessly inserted into this particular story. Dave (talk) 23:41, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- I'm going to start off with some thing that I posted at another of the template talks. When you are arguing for the inclusion of a character in a template, stop and ask yourself this question: "Would the casual reader of Marvel Comics, someone with out my deep knowledge of, and affection for, this 'box's subject, immediately link what I want to add to this topic or a different one?" If the honest answer is "No", the article shouldn't be in the template. If its "Who?" or "What?" you may have to sell it when it gets pulled out of the 'box.
- Sentry is associated with the Avengers, regardless of the massive retcon insert into every Marvel character's past. Doctor Strange elicits "the Sorcerer Supreme" or "the guy from the Defenders". not "Hulk's sidekick." And Hercules, even with WWH will get "Avengers" or "Thor". Even though they have appeared in stories with the Hulk and in magazines titled for the character, they no more intrinsic to or dependent on the Hulk than say Wolverine.
- Absorbing Man, Juggernaut, MODOK, and Nightmare follow the same logic. They were "borrowed" for Hulk stories, important or not, and returned afterwards.
- Wendigo is a bit of a thorn. The sporadic use across title has done a good job making it a "MU monster/foe" rather than linking to a specific character. Glorian has this same problem.
- Bereet, Madman, Mercy, and Galaxy Master all fall under "Who?". Bereet you make a good case for, putting her in the same role as Jarella and Caiera. Mercy you still need to sell — how often is recurring? Came back once or twice? More often?
- As for Madman and Galaxy Master... what you've described sounds like B-List foes, at best.
- Both Xemnu and Zzzax, IIRC, came from the "Pit Hulk against the 1950s Marvel monsters" phase. The only saving grace was that these two wound up finding a warm spot with the Hulk writers and kept coming back.
- As for Black and Armageddon... The first is a solo character at best at the moment. It may be that the writers go where you think they're going. If that happens, and she becomes a part, friend or foe, of a Hulk series, then there may be good reason to add her. As for Armageddon... "Who?" = J Greb (talk) 00:20, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- As above, I agree about Herc, Strange, and Sentry.
- Absorbing Man and Juggernaut as well, although they've arguably migrated into shared foes, with nearly as recurrent appearances as The Abomination.
- Wendigo and Glorian are most closely associated with the character and have reoccurred over a long span of time.
- Strictly off the top of my head Mercy first appeared as an antagonist during the McFarlane years, then in an annual, after that during Betty's near-death experience, later in the Heroes Reborn era to herald the Celestials, and, most recently, in the recent Hulk: Destruction video game, and mini-series. She's stuck around for almost 20 years now.
- I suppose that you're right about Black and Armageddon. Armageddon has potential, but is uninteresting for a regular Wikipedia reader, and while Scorpion is heavily hinted to be Hulk's daughter, and has appeared more in association with him than other MU heroes (i.e. at all) Marvel will currently focus on his son, Skaar.
- Madman and Galaxy Master are arguably major Hulk foes, but for a character with a very sporadic rogues gallery. By the rationale that these should be discluded, so should most of the cast for the Thor template and many others. It all depends on how thin you want the various Marvel 'family templates' to get. Should an FF entry only feature Doctor Doom, Super Skrull, Frightful Four, Annihilus and Galactus, or go a little further? At the very least Madman should probably be kept in the latter case.
- Xemnu and Zzaxx have monster origins, or at least Zzaxx supposedly had a lookalike named Blip, but are likevise closely associated with the character, and the entire point of Xemnu was to give Hulk classic monsters to fight. (As a sidenote Xemnu was also the original Hulk) Zzaxx should likely be kept, even if I personally don't care much for either it or the Bi-(don't bully me for my name)Beast, but yes, it's been quite a while for Xemnu or Galaxu Master. Dave (talk) 00:40, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- I'm with J Greb on most of those conclusions. I'm ok with Zzzax over Xemnu, actually, given that many fans find the 2003 film's climax to be in some ways like that... an electric beast. I'm also in support of dropping Herc, and Sentry. Since Dr. Strange figured prominently in the Crossroads story, I can accept him in the allies list. I think that really, Hulk's big brawl foes aren't as important in the main (Abomination excepted), as they've for 20 plus years been most of a plot device for examining the Banner/Hulk struggle. That said, I'm glad no one's arguing for ManBull to be on the list. Wendigo being here's accetpable for me, but mostly for the significant in terms of Publication History and the Wolverine debut. As to MODOK, Hulk's fought AIM enough times over the years for me to accept either AIM ro MODOK to the list, but not both. If we were really oriented towards psychology and literature, we'd list " Enemies:Hulk" and be done, LOL. The Hulk is one of the greatest ongoing 'Man vs Self' conflicts. Anyways, I think we're all ok with dropping Herc and Sentry,
so I'm going to do that now, we'll leave the rest till we've got more. ThuranX (talk) 02:25, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
- One more thought. While I accept the above discussion of Recentism and the double-edged sword, I'd say that Gamma Corps is definite recentism, and should go till that becomes more established. ThuranX (talk) 02:27, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
- If, and this is in no way advocating this, there were a section for "Allies", I could see inserting Doctor Strange and a few others there. The section though is "supporting cast", which Strange isn't. - J Greb (talk) 03:08, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
This template has been semi-protected in an effort to get annom editors to discuss the addition of minor characters or characters that are not solely Hulk related.
- J Greb (talk) 23:19, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
This template has been protected due to contentious additions/reversions. Please discuss additions here on the talk page. - jc37 01:24, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
- The Abomnation and the Leader the archenemies of the Hulk —Preceding unsigned comment added by Williamstrother (talk • contribs) 01:55, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
I've moved this from where it was plunkedinto an old thread... Is this the start of a new discusion?
- J Greb (talk) 02:09, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
I thik that that there should be more storylines inthe storyline section, and Planet Hulk should have it's own page, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 17:36, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
- There really aren't that many notable Hulk story lines.
- Navigation templates are not the place to put redlinks to ask for new articles - the most likely way to add links for "storylines" that don't yet have articles.
- Splitting "Planet Hulk" out from the articles that currently cover it should be brought up on those talk pages, not here.
- - J Greb (talk) 17:47, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
I noticed that a few primary Spider-Man villians were added on the Hulk villians section that probably don't belong here. Villians like Doctor Octopus and Sandman. Sandman would belong into a Fantastic Four villians section (Frightul Four) before he belongs in a Hulks villian section even though I think he would be an good villian for The Hulk. The only exception I think is Rhino since he is a major burrowed villian like Juggernaut, Absorbing Man, MODOK, and Nightmare.Captain Virtue (talk) 13:54, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone else think that it makes sense to add Juggernaut to the template? He has turned into almost as much of a signature Hulk villain as X-villain with time. Also, She-Hulk is perhaps the character closest associated with the Hulk, but probably doesn't have enough of a recurring roster to make her own template, so adding her (only true) nemesis Titania might make sense. The latter is also married to the Absorbing Man, who is a recurring Hulk foe. Dave (talk) 06:15, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for pointing out Absorbing Man Dave, since that shouldn't be in the template either.
- Beyond that...
- The basic test for inclusion would be if a casual or non reader of the comics would group the character here. Juggernaut, Absorbing Man, and Titania don't meet that criteria. If you want to make an argument that they should be, it is really going to require you pointing to a reliable, secondary, third-party source. And just to be crystal clear, that means nothing published by Marvel or licensed by them is going to work.
- And yes, by the same test, if the casual or non reader would ask "Who?" when a particular character is mentioned, that character may really be to minor for inclusion.
- Lastly, the topic here is "Hulk" not the "Hulk Family". The inclusion of She-Hulk as a supporting character isn't a stretch, but pulling in her exclusive "supporting cast" and "signature foes" is.
- - J Greb (talk) 07:28, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
- Well, Juggernaut is well-known, as is Absorbing Man, having even been included in one movie each, and they do tend to fight Hulk as recurrently as half the other listed foes, so I'd say that they should probably be there, but unless someone else chimes in, it's not a big deal. As for Titania, I started to fill out the pre-existing, but practically empty She-Hulk template instead, if that is acceptable? Dave (talk) 08:30, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
- RE: Juggernaut - '((By whom))? Which Hulk film was the character in? At best the character is an X-Men centric foe that got "loaned out". Remember, Marvel has a history doing that for the odd story. It's the very rare character that is actually "shared" by more than one "rogues gallery", like Kingpin (Spider-Man and Daredevil).
- Absorbing Man has the same problem. The film appearance wasn't. It was, as noted in the article, an element that changed drastically in the scrip development stage. That pretty much leaves the character as a Thor centric villain. Unless there is a reliable, third party source laying out why not.
- As for ((She-Hulk))... I'm seeing problems there as well... Spider-Man centric character, Howard centric character, generic MU characters, Defenders villain team, Hulk specific foes, red links (WP:NAVBOX).
- - J Greb (talk) 16:46, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
- No, he was in the third X-Men film. I was referring to that he is well known to the public, since that seemed like a concern. A version of the Absorbing Man did appear in a Hulk movie however, i.e. third party sources are there, but the identity was twisted around to Hulk's father I think. As for being loaned out, I see it more as charactes gravitating towards each other, and should be gauged in terms of both exclusiveness and number of appearances. When Hulk's most powerful foes were gathered to show his power as Apocalypse's horseman, it was just Absorbing Man and the Juggernaut who got selected. Absorbing Man fights Hulk roughly (or at least almost) as often as Thor, and Hulk is Juggernaut's main single sparring partner. No third source has outlined why exactly most other characters should be there either, but we take it as self-evident. She-Hulk I definitely need help with. The supporting characters are fine, but othervise she mostly uses any available goofy character from all over the place, along with a few exclusives such as Titania, Spragg, and Captain Rectitude, not all of whom have a profile here yet. Dave (talk) 21:51, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
- For clarification:
- "Well known to the public" - That is only part of the concern. The full phrase is "Well known to the public as part of the characters linked primarily to the Hulk". The X-Men films don't, cannot, provide support for that. Your statement implied that the Juggernaut was included in a film that justified such a link to the Hulk.
- Yes, Ang Lee's Hulk did include a character patterned after the Absorbing Man. And yes, there are reliable sources that the term was present in early drafts of the script, that the scriptwriters commented on the source of the idea in interviews, and that some comics toned reviewers mentioned the resemblance. All of that is why the film is mention in the Absorbing Man article. However, the final film doesn't name the character "Absorbing Man". Nor does it make the character a Hulk centric foe.
- The comics, the primary sources, are only good for showing two things: 1) that a foe was created specifically for a particular character and 2) a the appearances of a foe have been primarily in stories featuring or focusing on a particular character. The Absorbing Man was created for Thor and intrinsically linked to that character. 9 times out of 10 that should be as far as it goes.
- Once we get beyond that we get into what amounts to a fan's pissing match - each fan arguing for his/her personal favorite(s) being added.
- "When Hulk's most powerful foes..." - At a lot of levels that is reader interpretation. The intent there could also be "Any muscle bound oaf that faced the Hulk" or "The collection of the strongest MU characters that the writer was allowed to use".
- - J Greb (talk) 22:47, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
- All right, never mind then. They are included in the extended articles and that will have to be enough. However, I didn't mean to imply that Juggernaut was in a Hulk movie, just that he's well known. I also still don't really get exactly where the line is drawn for which characters to include, since quite a lot seem to get featured in several "rosters columns"? Absorbing Man has fought Hulk at least 6 times, so to me that seemed enough and almost up with Thor.
- Btw: If anyone reading this has some pointers or information to improve the She-Hulk template with, hep would be appreciated. Dave (talk) 08:17, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
- It shoud be noted that Absorbing Man was on Marvel.com's Top ten villains that make Hulk angry. Now I am not saying that means he is Hulk-centric because Moonstone was on there and she could be arguably non Hulk centric too. Here's the source. http://marvel.com/news/comicstories.3816.take_10~colon~_hulk_villainsJhenderson777 (talk) 17:55, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
I don't know how many times I could removed Flux. It could have gone over or still counted as WP:3RR. If so I apologize. I am trying to limit it to more major characters which I can understand it being a little debatable. Here's a thread to discuss the inclusion/exclusion of Flux and other characters that could be re-added. Although I do think the navbox might be better off semi-protected to protect itself from IPs that use no summary for their inclusion. Jhenderson 777 13:48, 11 June 2016 (UTC)