I'm sorry but this has to be discussed. The new template, as revised by users TBH and Shadow Hog, is just too big. It's clogged up with all sorts of naming and headings which I reckon are supposed to be useful but, in my opinion, confuse the table. Just compare the size of the new table with that of the old one. At least that one used breaks (for starters). Please add your thoughts to this discussion. --Steerpike 00:59, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Sonic the Hedgehog series |
Genesis/Sega CD/Sega 32X Game Gear/Master System Saturn - Dreamcast Multiplatform Non-Sega Handhelds Arcade Non-continuity installments Compilations |
Well, the good thing about this template (above) is that it's not as wide as the previous. In any case breaks were a necessity. I think the subheadings should still be coloured, but the point is that classifying the games by gaming system might not be such a good idea. I propose we either keep the original classification, or we divide the games by era (8-bit, 16-bit, 32/bit,...) or by style (2D, 3D; sidescroller, puzzle,...) I like Nick R's idea to incorporate the hide function. We should definitely look into that. I'll try and work out a few templates myself to post in this discussion. Cheers. --Steerpike 19:33, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Genesis/CD/32X | Sonic the Hedgehog | 2 | CD | 3 | & Knuckles | Spinball | Mean Bean Machine | Chaotix | 3D |
Game Gear | Sonic the Hedgehog | 2 | Chaos | Triple Trouble | Blast | Labyrinth | Drift | Drift 2 | Tails Adventures | Tails' Skypatrol | Mean Bean Machine | Spinball |
Saturn - Dreamcast | R | Adventure/DX | Adventure 2/Battle | Shuffle |
Multiplatform | Heroes | Shadow the Hedgehog | Riders | Sonic (2006) |
Non-Sega Handhelds | Pocket Adventure | Advance/N | Advance 2 | Advance 3 | Rush | Pinball Party | Battle |
Arcade | the Fighters | SegaSonic the Hedgehog |
Non-continuity | Schoolhouse | Music Maker | Waku Waku Sonic Patrol Car | SegaSonic Cosmo Fighter |
Compilations | Classics | Jam | S&K Collection | Mega Collection/Plus | Gems |
Cancelled titles | Crackers | X-treme |
--Phil 00:19, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
I really like this one. It has a decent size, it's orderly and it has the hide function. Well done! One thing that still bothers me slightly is whether or not it's a good idea to drop the word "sonic" off every title. I understand this takes up space but some titles have become rather unintelligeble without the word. No? Also, I've suggested a slight tweak to the above template. I've added the blue background colour to each subheading. Good or bad? --Steerpike 15:57, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
It definitely should be shortened or split up. - A Link to the Past (talk) 06:43, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Sonic Shuffle is missing from this template. I'm not sure what order the spinoffs section is presented in, so I didn't want to just throw it in there. - 211.28.82.103 06:57, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
As explained in Template talk:FinalFantasy series#Italics in titles discussion:
There is currently a discussion re: italics in titles at Wikipedia_talk:Manual of Style (titles)#Italic_in_templates. Anyone with an interest in this should participate in the discussion there. Thanks! —Locke Cole
--Nick R 20:38, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Why isn't Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine on this template? -- ChessManXI 09:38, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
those games are children's sonic spinoffs. if we keep those, why not add Sonic's Schoolhouse or Tails and the Music Maker? --Phil 13:07, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
I've seen it first in the Template:Final Fantasy series... why not reduce the number of times the word "Sonic" is repeated? I've already started... igordebraga ≠ 17:36, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Should the entry for Drift be changed to "Drift 1 and 2", or even listed twice, and the article split, becuase they are two completley separate games (1, and sequel, 2). Shall i also move it to the 8-bit section, or is it in "Spin-offs" because it was not made by Sonic Team?
Raccoon Fox 21:18, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Note that "Sonic Drift 2" is called "Sonic Drift Racing" (with no number) in Europe. This needs to go into the chart. (Stefan2 12:03, 5 October 2006 (UTC))
I've added Sonic Wildfire to the template under spin-offs as the game was only just announced, and therefore we do not know how it fits in the Sonic Universe. This brings me to me next point; I personally consider Shadow the Hedgehog as the continuation of the main Sonic series (Sonic Adventure 1/2, and Heroes), so I think it should be in the main game series. What does everyone else think. -- VederJuda 21:51, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Someone else just added Wild Fire to the main series; I'll delete mine for now, but I want to know what everyone thinks, about where this game belongs in the series. -- VederJuda 21:56, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, Shadow the Hedgehog is definately part of the series, as Shadow regains his memory in this game, so any other game which is part of the series containing Shadow would not make sense if Shadow magically gains his memories. A game like Sonic Riders, for example, is a spinoff, because it talks about a totally different sidestory. If anyone is thinking of putting Shadow the Hedgehog as a spinoff, they must read this first, as Shadow as a sidestory is incorrect. SuperSonic 00:30, June 17, 2006 (UTC)
I dunno, I think Shadow is a spin-off. My reasoning is in the developer's view - in Nintendo Power, he claimed he wanted to go "somewhere different" with the Sonic franchise, and a similar interview for Sonic Adventure DX states that Sonic would never use a gun. While it's basically Sonic Adventure 3 storyline-wise, because the game does NOT star Sonic, I would suggest moving it back to the Spinoff section. -21:45, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Really. I'm 100% convinced that Shadow the Hedgehog is in fact canon to the series. If it ain't, then it will cause some continuity errors in the series. It wont make sense if Shadow magically regains his memories in SONIC the Hedgehog. SuperSonic 19:51, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
There is a difference between a canon game and a "main game". For example, Knuckles Chaotix is canon, it takes place directly after Sonic & Knuckles, but would you call it a "main game"? It has nothing to do with Sonic. Sure, it's a part of the continuity, yet it's widely considered as a spin-off. This applies to Shadow the Hedgehog; it's canon, it takes place directly after Sonic Heroes, but it doesn't necessarily qualify as a "main game". Why? It's a spin-off, one that focuses, not on the chronicle of Sonic, but a supporting character with a narrative of his own. Shadow the Hedgehog is a game that tells the story of Black Doom's arrival in Shadow's point of view, not Sonic's. Now if there was a version of Shadow the Hedgehog that told the battle against Black Doom in Sonic's point of view, we can consider it a main game. However, I consider Shadow the Hedgehog a spin-off, a canonical spin-off, that tells a story in different point of view from Sonic's. I haven't moved Shadow the Hedgehog to the spin-off and related titles section yet, but I would suggest doing so. (YAADS 20:06, 12 August 2006 (UTC))
The reason I believe that Shadow the Hedgehog is part of the main series is that Sonic had a big role in the game. That is what separates it from Knuckles Chaotix. As the game is, without a doubt, canon and features Sonic in a prominent role (as well as several other major characters from the series), it is therefore part of the main series.El cid the hero 15:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I believe that this game is a part of the series, because Shadow regaining his memory is an extremely important fact in the game series. SuperSonic 18:11, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I think Sonic and the Secret Rings (formerly Wildfire) needs to be in this list. While unreleased, it appears very strongly to be part of the main series, and it's absence might confuse some people, who will then go in and add it. Hell, I think this whole template needs to be a single, unified template, not scattered, multiple ones. By leaving it as multiple templates for 'main' 'spinoff', etc., you're just asking for people to CONSTANTLY add games to the main template, not realizing it's in another template. They won't read the talk page, won't check the history, they'll just add in Sonic Spinball and Knuckles Chaotix at random. --Visual77 21:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I honestly have no idea why it's even up for discussion. Shadow's a spin-off, because you do not play as Sonic. Chaotix and the other Sonic spin-offs are all also part of the continuity, but we don't argue over them. Just because Shadow the Hedgehog is newer doesn't mean it should be given the title of "main series" game. You don't play as Sonic. End of story. Why is this even being debated? --Daytonafathead 2:12, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
I added that space because without it, the template often gets squeezed together with the last line of "External links". It just looks bad. I've tried to fix it "in-article" by adding a double space between the last external link and the template but people keep reverting it back! Some discussion on this matter please. --Steerpike 13:18, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I've added Flicky to the spin-offs. Reply if you have a problem with that. Flicky appears in many Sonic games, not to mention the template Template:Sonic so I think her game deserves mention here. Kidburla2002 18:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Flicky is from 1984, but Sonic is from 1991. Should it really go into this template? (Stefan2 12:04, 5 October 2006 (UTC))
It's a major part of the series. I've added it next to Sonic 2 in parentheses. Tom Temprotran 00:30, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Why? If it fits into any other series, it's not a spinoff. Advance 3 implies a connection to Battle, but it's not really part of the series, is it? I don't know, but it definately doesn't belong in both places at once. -21:47, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
It's a handheld game, that's good enough for me. --DavidHOzAu 09:01, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
The Handheld game (except Battle and Genesis) is part of Main Series.
Someone just completely changed the template and even added an "Adventure subseries" category. I think it's time for a new template. This one has gotten way out of hand, as if we didn't have enough trouble deciding if Shadow is a "main game". Isn't the concept of a "main game" a little dubious anyway? It's a category so opinionated you might as well make a category for "Good Sonic games" and "Bad Sonic games". Anyone have any ideas? (YAADS 23:26, 17 August 2006 (UTC))
That done, we should follow what we did over at Template talk:Sonic#Template upgrade or upheaval?. I suggest getting rid of the bottom row (Blue Spheres really belongs on the first line of ((SonicFeatures)), and the other two links are redirects) and shortening the headings (that's why the table looks so squat on lower resolutions). --DavidHOzAu 07:25, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
...is part of Main Series?
...sign your comments? But really, yes, they are. Rush definitely is (assuming StH06 is), and the Advance titles do tie in to the main series. SPA...maybe. Hello2112 23:58, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Someone added this article, even though it was deleted for lack of information, and now someone has added it again with nothing more than the same sliver of info that existed before. I don't think Riders 2 should be listed here until Sega make some official announcement of it. -- VederJuda 12:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Chao Adventures (and Chao Adventures 2) are missing. (Stefan2 12:07, 5 October 2006 (UTC))
The Pico games, "Sonic the Hedgehog Gameworld" and "Tails and the Music Maker", aren't mentioned here. (Stefan2 10:58, 8 October 2006 (UTC))
Sega Archives from USA Vol. 1, 2 and 3 and various other compilations are missing. (Stefan2 12:05, 8 October 2006 (UTC))
I think useability should come first on this kind of template. Its great to squish a list of sonic games down to 1 | 2 | 3 | &K but i dont think a "non-sonic fan" would be able to find their game easily. I decided to design a complete opposite to the current template, putting useability first without worring about making it small.
And here it is... (dosent work in IE yet)
Mega Drive/Genesis (Meganet and 32X) | Flicky | Sonic Eraser (Meganet) | Knuckles' Chaotix (Chaotix) (32X) | ||
Sega Pico | Sonic's Gameworld | Tails And The Music Maker | ||
Sega Arcade | Waku Waku Sonic Patrol Car (Ride on) | SegaSonic The Hedgehog (S32) | SegaSonic Cosmo Fighter (Ride on) | Sonic The Fighters (Sonic Championship) (M2) | ||
Sega PC only | Sonic Schoolhouse | Sonic The Screensaver | PlayStation 2 | Sega SuperStars |
Mega Drive/Genesis | Sonic Compilation (Sonic Classics) | Sonic 2 in 1 | Sega Saturn | Sonic Jam |
Nintendo GameCube/PlayStation 2/Xbox/ Sega PC |
Compilations | Sonic and Knuckles Collection (PC only) | Sonic Mega Collection (Sonic Mega Collection Plus) | Sonic Gems Collection (GC and PS2 only) Ports (GC only) | Sonic Adventure 2: Battle | Sonic Adventure DX |
Sonic 2 Beta (Mega Drive) | Sonic Crackers (Sonic Studium) (Mega Drive) | Sonic X-treme (Sonic Mars) (Sega Saturn and 32X) | Project S (PC)
I think this would be much easier to navigate but, come to think of it, its probably a bit too big. Mabey a comprimise between the current template and my template would be good. ROSSYMILES (ロシマイルス) TALK 03:23, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Also for some reason its starting off hidden, i dont know how to use the hide link properly, it be great if someone could fix it. For now just press [ Show ] in the bottom right corner to see it.
Made it shorter, added upcoming titles, systems with only one game shouldnt have their own line. Still needs to be smaller. ROSSYMILES (ロシマイルス) TALK 06:23, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
How is the Monkey Ball series part of the Sonic series? Other than AiAi appearing in Sonic Riders, which is a cameo, not a marging of two series. -- VederJuda 12:21, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes it should be in the template but some people keep moving it to spin-off. If anyone who is doing that sees this message, please stop and discuss it first. El cid the hero 10:09, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I honestly have no idea why it's even up for discussion. Shadow's a spin-off, because you do not play as Sonic. Chaotix and the other Sonic spin-offs are all also part of the continuity, and introduce us to some characters that become crucial to the plotline of future games, but we don't argue over them. Just because Shadow the Hedgehog is newer doesn't mean it should be given the title of "main series" game. You don't play as Sonic. End of story. Why is this even being debated? --Daytonafathead 2:15, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Okay, why were all the games removed from this template?!? It's no longer informative; there are no longer any links to the vast majority of the Sonic series!!! What sort of dimwit would kill the template like this?!?!! --Luigifan 17:05, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you 1000%. I want the old template back as it has all the sonic games, instead of the few that are major to the main series. I suggest a pettition should be started to get the old template back, or atleast something similar, as of now. SuperSonic 17:48, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
I just put it back. there was just no way I was leaving it like that. El cid the hero 20:14, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
A Man In Black changed it according to WT:CVG#Navboxes_yet_again maybe we should try to adhere to it in some way... Sonic3KMaster(talk) 20:18, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
It was so huge as to lose any sort of relevance to the vast majority of articles in which it appears. How is a user to tell the (relatively unimportant) 8-bit Sonics and the Advance series from the core games? What about the various forgotten party games and other spinoffs? There's been a trend towards making game series templates include everything but the kitchen sink, and well, it's making for huge, dense, useless templates.
Rather than being angry about it here, I suggest commenting at WT:CVG#Navboxes yet again, where a standard set of rules and standard appearance are being worked upon. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:01, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
The template was murdered. That's all that needs to be said.
OK, the thing is, this is not a Wikipedia style guideline, this is some random idea that only a handful of users have agreed on. All it will do is piss a load of people off. This template is not useful anymore! It may be smaller and look consistent with other butchered navboxes, but it is not better than the previous template and should be reverted immeaditly. ROSSYMILES (ロシマイルス) TALK 10:35, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Mega Drive Series • Sonic The Hedgehog • Sonic 2 • Sonic CD • Sonic 3 • Sonic and Knuckles • Chaotix • Sonic 3D
8-bit series • Sonic The Hedgehog • Sonic 2 • Chaos • Drift 1&2 • Triple Trouble • Tails Adventures • Tails' Skypatrol • Labyrinth • Blast
Current series • Sonic R • Adventure • Shuffle • Adventure 2 • Pocket Adventure • Heroes • Shadow • Riders
Nintendo Handheld • Sonic Advance • Pinball Party • Advance 2 • Battle • Advance 3 • Rush
Spinoffs • Flicky • Eraser • Spinball • Tails And The Music Maker • Sonic Schoolhouse
Arcade • Waku Waku Sonic Patrol Car • SegaSonic The Hedgehog • SegaSonic Cosmo Fighter • Sonic The Fighters
Collections • Sonic Compilation • Sonic Jam • Sonic and Knuckles Collection • Sonic Mega Collection • Sonic Gems Collection
Betas, Unrelased and Recreated • Sonic 2 Beta • Sonic Crackers • Sonic X-treme • Project S
Upcoming • SONIC The Hedgehog • Sonic Rivals • Sonic and the Secret Rings
ROSSYMILES (ロシマイルス) TALK 11:15, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Man in black, I simply can't allow the template to remain the way it is as it misses out on almost every single sonic game in existence. Point One: it excludes Shadow the Hedgehog and sonic 3D blast, both games that are in the main series. Point Two: The template is now without purpose due to it failing to inform the average reader of the vast majority of Sonic’s 15 years of history. and thirdly: theses changes have not yet gained consensus on the page it was proposed and therefore forcing it onto every template is not the right thing to do
ps: i like you template ROSSYMILES (ロシマイルス) TALK but would still favour the other one El cid the hero 15:23, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Check WT:CVG#Navboxes yet again. Short version: exhaustive lists are generally not good ideas for templates; do we really need Flicky or five unreleased games or a pile of party games linked from every single Sonic game article? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:54, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes ROSSYMILES (ロシマイルス) TALK 06:40, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Incidentally, I narrowed it down to "Platformers developed by Sonic Team in which Sonic appears." That's why Sonic Rush is here but not Sonic Advance, for example. I have no strong opinion about whether Shadow the Hedgehog appears on this template; I'm just reflecting whatever the last version had. There may be a handful of other edge-case games that may or may not belong here; just understand that the everything-but-the-kitchen-sink design, with dozens of games many of which are one-off spinoffs or don't even have Sonic at all, is being replaced with slimmer, more-relevant templates. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 12:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Ooookay...this template makes absolutely NO sense whatsoever. So, Sonic Rush has a link on the Template, but not Shadow? Why not Sonic Advance, then? It makes absolutely no sense. It seems as though these games were selected arbitrarily, perhaps even by a collective of personal biases. And, to top that off, to reach the links for anything not on the template, one must sort through dozens upon dozens of games that have little to do with Sonic whatsoever (some just involving cameo appearances). This is both absurd and illogical, and the template is completely useless and worthless.Ctu2485 03:39, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Also, in addition to having to sort through an entire article to find links to games (including having to sift through information on ROMS and pirate games), one using this template will increase the difficulty of locating most of the other information on the series.Ctu2485 03:43, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
OK lets have a vote on wether to use the new template or the old one and place bets on who will win lol -ROSSYMILES (ロシマイルス) TALK 09:31, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Also check out the size of this navtemplate Template:ASUE
Check this out:
Main Series • Sonic The Hedgehog • Sonic 2 • Sonic 3 • Sonic Adventure • Sonic Adventure 2 • Sonic Heroes • Shadow The Hedgehog • Sonic Riders
Other Mega Drive games • Sonic The Hedgehog CD • Sonic and Knuckles • Knuckles' Chaotix • Sonic 3D: Flickies Island
Other Saturn, Dreamcast and Neo Geo • Sonic R • Sonic Shuffle • Sonic the Hedgehog Pocket Adventure
8-bit series • Sonic The Hedgehog • Sonic 2 • Chaos • Drift 1&2 • Triple Trouble • Tails Adventures • Tails' Skypatrol • Labyrinth • Blast
Nintendo Handheld • Sonic Advance • Sonic Pinball Party • Sonic Advance 2 • Sonic Battle • Sonic Advance 3 • Rush
Spinoffs • Flicky • Sonic Eraser • Sonic The Hedgehog Spinball • Tails And The Music Maker • Sonic Schoolhouse
Arcade • Waku Waku Sonic Patrol Car • SegaSonic The Hedgehog • SegaSonic Cosmo Fighter • Sonic The Fighters
Collections • Sonic Compilation • Sonic Jam • Sonic and Knuckles Collection • Sonic Mega Collection • Sonic Gems Collection
Betas, Unrelased and Recreated • Sonic 2 Beta • Sonic Crackers • Sonic X-treme • Project S
Upcoming • SONIC The Hedgehog • Sonic Rivals • Sonic and the Secret Rings
Yay, a compromise, looks like your template, but you can view all the games without having to travel to a new page -ROSSYMILES (ロシマイルス) TALK 11:05, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Show/hide is glitchy as all get out, and, well, why not just make a better list for all of the games? I'm not unsympathetic, but I think you're forcing templates to do something they're ill-suited to do. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 12:11, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Genesis - Nintendo GameCube | Sonic Compilation | Sonic Jam | Sonic and Knuckles Collection | Sonic Mega Collection/Plus | Sonic Gems Collection |
Genesis - PC | Sonic 2 Beta | Sonic Crackers | Sonic X-treme | Project S |
Hello2112 01:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
This is not perfect, but I think something along the lines of this would be more appropriate:
Main series | 1 | 2 | CD | 3/& Knuckles | 3D Blast | Adventure/DX | Adventure 2/Battle | Heroes | Shadow the Hedgehog |
Upcoming titles | Sonic (2006) | Sonic Genesis | Sonic Rivals | Secret Rings |
Handheld series | Sonic the Hedgehog | Sonic 2 | Chaos | Triple Trouble | BlastPocket Adventure | Sonic Advance/N | Sonic Advance 2 | Sonic Advance 3 | Sonic Battle | Sonic Pinball Party |Sonic Rush |
Other | All games and cameo appearances |
This covers all titles of the main series and leaves only the sideseries, etc. to the other page. Ctu2485 19:59, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
How about this template?
Main Series | Sonic the Hedgehog • Sonic 2 • Sonic CD • Sonic 3 • Sonic & Knuckles • Sonic 3D Blast • Sonic Adventure • Sonic Adventure 2 • Sonic Heroes • Shadow the Hedgehog |
---|---|
8-bit / Handheld | Sonic the Hedgehog • Sonic 2 • Sonic Chaos • Sonic Triple Trouble • Sonic Blast • Sonic Pocket Adventure • Sonic Advance • Sonic Advance 2 • Sonic Battle • Sonic Advance 3 • Sonic Rush |
Spin-offs | Sonic Spinball • Sonic Drift series • Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine • Tails Adventure • Tails' Skypatrol • Sonic Labyrinth • Knuckles' Chaotix • Sonic R • Sonic Shuffle • Sonic Pinball Party • Sonic Riders |
Upcoming | Sonic Next-Gen • Sonic Rivals • Sonic the Hedgehog Genesis • Sonic and the Secret Rings |
All games and cameo appearances |
If you're linking more than a dozen articles, you haven't identified a closely-related series of articles to tie together. Doubly so if you need a left-hand column to identify each separate category of links. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 08:28, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes we had. It's called "Games that sold well or are not contradicted by later games", "Games that are eight bit", "Games that have Sonic Tails or Knuckles in it", "Games that are not yet released", "Games that were never released", etc. If the only difference is whether it is a table or not, it would be better to keep it in a table because it won't look ugly on a thin browser window; the information in the left hand column will appear at the beginning anyway. Note that the Sonic series is a lot bigger than most of the other series out there. My opinion is that the CVG guideline is non standard compared to the rest of Wikipedia. Look at ((Matrix)), ((Marvel Comics films)) and ((The Da Vinci Code)). Oh, and the template should've been reverted to a time before the dispute took place instead of protecting a version that is disputed. The ideal solution: let this be the exception to the CVG wikiproject, and everyone will be happy. --DavidHOzAu 04:09, 30 October 2006 (UTC.
AMIB - There are not as many Sonic Team-developed Sonic games as you seem to think. Sonic 1, Sonic Adventure, and Sonic Heroes are basically it. Sonic 2/3/K were all STI, Rush was Dimps like the Advances, and Adventure 2 was a spinoff studio Sonic Team USA. You might want to find a different standard of inclusion. Rolken 19:44, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
I really think this one, posted above, should be the template:
Main series | 1 | 2 | CD | 3/& Knuckles | 3D Blast | Adventure/DX | Adventure 2/Battle | Heroes | Shadow the Hedgehog |
Upcoming titles | Sonic (2006) | Sonic Genesis | Sonic Rivals | Secret Rings |
Handheld series | Sonic the Hedgehog | Sonic 2 | Chaos | Triple Trouble | BlastPocket Adventure | Sonic Advance/N | Sonic Advance 2 | Sonic Advance 3 | Sonic Battle | Sonic Pinball Party |Sonic Rush |
Other | All games and cameo appearances |
It's far shorter than the original, and keeps the RELEVANT titles visible. Hello2112 00:40, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I actually prefer the one that the anon left. [1] However, I have edited the one you just posted so that the heading cells don't wrap. --DavidHOzAu 06:02, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Main Series: Sonic the Hedgehog · Sonic 2 · Sonic CD · Sonic 3 · Sonic & Knuckles · Sonic 3D Blast · Sonic Adventure · Sonic Adventure 2 · Sonic Heroes · Shadow the Hedgehog |
8-bit/Handheld: Sonic the Hedgehog · Sonic 2 · Sonic Chaos · Sonic Triple Trouble · Sonic Blast · Sonic Pocket Adventure · Sonic Advance · Sonic Advance 2 · Sonic Battle · Sonic Advance 3 · Sonic Rush |
Spin offs: Sonic Spinball · Sonic Drift series · Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine · Tails Adventure · Tails' Skypatrol · Sonic Labyrinth · Knuckles' Chaotix · Sonic R · Sonic Shuffle · Sonic Pinball Party · Sonic Riders |
Upcoming: Sonic Next-Gen · Sonic Rivals · Sonic the Hedgehog Genesis · Sonic and the Secret Rings |
All games and cameo appearances |
There, like the one the anon posted, but with less-distracting bullets (bold ·
), a smaller bottom, inline subtitles, and gratuitous use of  
and  
. A good compromise of the old layout with A Man In Black's suggestions. Can I suggest that all future proposals use this layout? It looks rather nice. --DavidHOzAu 06:47, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Why not split this template into three? Once you distributed or omitted the upcoming games, you've got three clearly distinct article series there. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 13:14, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I've decided to be bold and hack the new split and appearance here. Edit it at will and state when you make a change in a post. --DavidHOzAu 12:15, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Sonic Classics · Sonic Jam · Sonic & Knuckles Collection · Sonic Mega Collection (Plus) · Sonic Gems Collection |
Note that the first navbox has 's in the wikilinks to prevent a partial-title wrap. I haven't gotten to the other navlinks yet. --DavidHOzAu 12:15, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Now here's a question: should Sonic Rush appear in ((Sonic games (handheld))) even though it is also part of the main series canon? --DavidHOzAu 12:15, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm also not sure how this four can be made into three without merging compilations into spin offs, since doing that would give us another problem template again. --DavidHOzAu 12:40, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I think we might be best to just not make a spin-offs template at all. They're awfully far-flung, and they can all fit into a category. Likewise, but less so, with the compilations.
Can we think of a better term than "canonical" for the main series template? Canon is always contentious and this template seems to have some weird outliers (Sonic 3D Blast? Sonic Riders?) that don't make sense without clear criteria. It'd be one thing if it was like Star Wars canon, strictly regulated by an authority, but AFAICT what's canon and what isn't regarding Sonic is a contentious issue discussed pretty much only on forums.
I think we probably need to drop remakes and far-off upcoming games, as is done in all the templates. Sonic Adventure DX, for example, isn't much a part of a larger series of articles than a sub-article of Sonic Adventure. I think the wisest thing to do may be to merge the remake articles, but this is a discussion for another time. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 22:48, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Let's kill the spin-offs template. I took the links to the DX and Battle parts of the SA and SA2 articles, respectively. I also cut out Riders becasue, although it introduces new characters, it is still a spin-off. I also removed 3D Blast. Hello2112 23:44, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, now that the important stuff is out of the way, now it's time to discuss the less important stuff. (I'll sign these individually so they can be replied to individually.)
What is the header for this template going to say? Canon games is out (as the story is probably the worst way to organize Sonic games, and Sonic canon isn't strictly defined anyway) and main series is awkward. Ideally, we'd have a place to link the overall umbrella Computer and video games article, as well as making it clear that we're talking about video games. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 23:24, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Also, we really need to ditch the upcoming games links. Game previews are poor sources, the importance of these games is not yet established, and it's not even clear that they won't be canned or renamed or otherwise changed before release. (Heck, they don't even have finalized names.) - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 23:24, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
How about 'Sonic the Hedgehog console games'? Hello2112 01:45, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I re-added Shadow. It is considered canon; it follows Sonic Heroes directly. Hello2112 17:45, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't think this game is part of the main series. The plot of Sonic finding lost pages to The Arabian Nights Story seems irrelevent to the main series. - 15:02 18, November 2006 (UTC)
Are TERRIBLE honestly, there really really bad!! i dislke them, bring back the one that had
Main Series Hand held Spinoff Upcoming games
All in one box, cluttered it was, but you could find everything you needed.
Main Series | Sonic the Hedgehog • Sonic 2 • Sonic CD • Sonic 3 • Sonic & Knuckles • Sonic 3D Blast • Sonic Adventure • Sonic Adventure 2 • Sonic Heroes • Shadow the Hedgehog |
---|---|
8-bit / Handheld | Sonic the Hedgehog • Sonic 2 • Sonic Chaos • Sonic Triple Trouble • Sonic Blast • Sonic Pocket Adventure • Sonic Advance • Sonic Advance 2 • Sonic Battle • Sonic Advance 3 • Sonic Rush |
Spin-offs | Sonic Spinball • Sonic Drift series • Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine • Tails Adventure • Tails' Skypatrol • Sonic Labyrinth • Knuckles' Chaotix • Sonic R • Sonic Shuffle • Sonic Pinball Party • Sonic Riders |
Upcoming | Sonic Next-Gen • Sonic Rivals • Sonic the Hedgehog Genesis • Sonic and the Secret Rings |
All games and cameo appearances |
That one!!!
Let's see. There are some users like El cid the hero who disagree the template showing the complete titles of the games, and prefer shorter and neater ways. In my opinion, you can's just left those incomplete titles being so inaccurate. A mere and simple "Sonic 2" could be for some people the Mega Drive game Sonic the Hedgehog 2, and for others the Dreamcast game Sonic Adventure 2, as this one is known as Sonic 2 in its context-platform. But the most funny thing is that we have a Sonic the Hedgehog (16-bit) game showed on the template, with its complete title, and next to it a mere Sonic 2. Why? Isn't the next one a sequel? Then why just Sonic 2 and not the fitting and more complete Sonic the Hedgehog 2? (and the same with Sonic the Hedgehog CD and Sonic the Hedgehog 3, as they are part of the classic Sonic the Hedgehog saga) Because that's the same as calling "Mario 2" to Super Mario Bros 2 or "Mario 3" to Super Mario Bros 3, being so inaccurate. Let's be more concise and less neat. Wesker85 04:41, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Wesker85 don't change the page while a discussion is taking place over the vary changes you are making. It considered bad faith. El cid the hero 14:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Can people stop please moving shadow to the spin-off template. We have discussed it before and decided that this was were it belonged. El cid the hero 11:21, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure that YOU decided this is where it belonged, when everythign about the game besides story points to spin-off. Chaotix and the other Sonic spin-offs are all also part of the continuity, but we don't argue over them. Just because Shadow the Hedgehog is newer doesn't mean it should be given the title of "main series" game. You don't play as Sonic. End of story. Why is this even being debated? (Yes, this is a copy+paste, because the idea remains the same) Daytonafathead 2:17, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
But it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. I'd like somebody to explain to me how Shadow the Hedgehog is part of the main series games, with the knowledge that both Tails Adventures and Knuckles' Chaotix are both in spin-offs when they too are part of the main series continuity. They are put in "spin-offs" because they do not star Sonic, and he's not even playable in them. Shadow does not star Sonic, and he's not even playable in it. It's all a matter of common sense and logic. Shadow is a spin-off by very definition of a spin-off. Daytonafathead 09:32, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
How did Shadow the Hedgehog expand the storyline any greater than Shadow's story? You learn more about Shadow's past, but that's about it. Nothing more relevant to the Sonic story besides what happened to Shadow 50 years ago. I really see no relevance to the Sonic game plot. If Shadow the Hedgehog the game never happened, it wouldn't cause the slightest ripple in the main series continuum for anyone else but Shadow. So because you don't actually play as sonic, as you do in every other game listed in the main series, and because it's not relevant to any character's story except Shadow, it cannot be considered a main series game when thought through logically. The matter cannot be closed there when you actually think. --Daytonafathead 05:06, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree with the point that it is in the MAIN SERIES, its main storyline. It just is! 82.20.90.52 11:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
The only strong point to put Shadow in the main series is the importance of Sonic in the game. But, in Sonic Riders, there is a story around Sonic too, but everyone agrees that it's a spin-off because it's a racing game. A spin-off can have a story around Sonic that is in the main continuity. Shadow the Hedgehog is like Knuckles' Chaotix, it's a game starring a character that is not Sonic. Knuckles' Chaotix is a spin off, so Shadow is a spin off. Even if Sonic is important in the story, he is just a supporting character like Tails and Vector the Crocodile. Even the Commander and Eggman are more important than Sonic. Shadow is a spin off. User:DjinnFighter
Knuckles' Chaotix is a spin-off because the gameplay is different and doesn't involve sonic at all. Sonic Riders is a spin-off as the gameplay is different. Shadow has the same gameplay and Sonic is importance in the game. (And don't try and argue that the gunplay make the gameplay significantly different) El cid the hero 00:34, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
In Sonic Heroes, the gameplay is also different, more than Shadow's, but Sonic Heroes is a main game, it's evident, more than Shadow. The gameplay is not a good point to put Shadow in the main series. User:DjinnFighter
If one hundred people kill themselves, you will kill yourself too because everyone do that. It's not because a lot of people think that Shadow is a main game that it's officially a main game. Also, there is a lot of people who think that Shadow is a spin-off. DjinnFighter
I didn't said that Shadow is non-canon. But it's not a good point to put it in the main series, Sonic Riders is also canon and Knuckles' Chaotix too. DjinnFighter
80.194.3.44 please stop and discuss your editing. El cid the hero 15:08, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I simply don't see how Shadow the Hedgehog is part of the main series, even if it is a closure to the Sonic Adventure 2 story arc, that does not mean it enters into the series of main games. The game is formed from the splitting of a larger entity (The Sonic the Hedgehog series) to show Shadow's role in the world of Sonic the Hedgehog. Sonic the Hedgehog may play a role in the game, but so do other title characters of the series in other media related spin-offs. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.47.5.31 (talk) 22:20, 10 February 2007 (UTC).
spin-off definition taken from answers.com
1)a)A divestiture by a corporation of a division or subsidiary by issuing to stockholders shares in a new company set up to continue the operations of the division or subsidiary.
b)The new company formed by such a divestiture.
2)Something, such as a product, that is derived from something larger and more or less unrelated; a byproduct.
3)Something derived from an earlier work, such as a television show starring a character who had a popular minor role in another show.
By definition 2, I can argue Shadow the Hedgehog is not a spin-off as it is heavily related to Sonic Heroes and therefore not an unrelated byproduct. Also, by definition 3 its not a spin-off because the entire main cast of Sonic the hedgehog appears in the game, and therefore it is not derived from an earlier work but rather a continuation. El cid the hero 12:58, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
PS: I’ve protected the page so no one can edit it until this issue is resolved El cid the hero 13:00, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Okay, someone took out Shadow the Hedgehog and added Knuckles Chaotix, just to let you know. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.19.141.251 (talk) 21:07, 6 February 2007 (UTC).
These two games are spin-offs
Chaotix is, Shadow isn't El cid the hero 01:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Should't be all the canon games included in the main series template eg Sonic Rush and Sonic Rivals. Higglio 19:40, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I think spin-off should be seen as exsiting outside of the main canon. Higglio 10:29, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I think non-canon games are spin-off, but canon games aren't necessarily main games. Sonic Riders is a spin-off, but it's canon. Yes I think that a lot of "handheld" Sonic games are main games : Sonic (8-bits), Sonic 2 (8-bits), Chaos, Triple Trouble, Blast, Pocket Adventure, Advance, Advance 2, Advance 3, Rush and Rivals. DjinnFighter
Spin-off should be defined by a combination of game play similarity and storyline connection. Also, if a game can be defined by one of the other two templates, it should be placed there and not in main or spin-off. El cid the hero 16:48, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
What the? This game isn't on any of the Sonic series templates! I think it should be on either this template, or on the spin-off template.
Well, Blue Sphere is a kind of Sonic game and has its own article and all. I just ask you people, what template is it supposed to be in? Gurko 16:24, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
While we have a consensus for leaving Shadow in the spinoff template for the moment because it will avoid a pointless edit war, I think we are ignoring the fact that there was no consensus to remove it in the first place. What I am going to do here is state clearly what we have always done when it comes to the main series, and hopefully reestablish consensus about how to handle this and similar situations in the future.
Let's look at Sonic the Hedgehog series#Chronology. If this template was about what games were canon, all of the following games would be in this template:
Obviously this template isn't about all games which are canon, so let's categorize what sort of game console they were released on:
Title | Type |
---|---|
Sonic the Hedgehog | Television |
Sonic the Hedgehog CD | Television |
Sonic the Hedgehog 2 | Television |
Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles | Television |
Sonic Advance | Handheld |
Sonic Advance 2 | Handheld |
Sonic Adventure | Television |
Sonic Adventure 2 | Television |
Sonic Heroes | Television |
Shadow the Hedgehog | Television |
Sonic Battle | Handheld |
Sonic Advance 3 | Handheld |
Sonic the Hedgehog 2006 | Television |
Sonic Rivals | Handheld |
Sonic and the Secret Rings | Television |
Taking out the handheld games, we are left with the following:
In other words, everything that should be in the template.
Hmm... that above list looks awfully familiar...
Hence we arrive at our inclusion criteria for this navigational template:
Failing the first of the above:
Failing the any of the above:
In tabular form:
X | Sonic, game, refs | no Sonic | no Game engine | no refs |
---|---|---|---|---|
TV | ((Sonic games)) | ((Sonic games (spin off))) | ((Sonic games (spin off))) | ((Sonic games (spin off))) |
non-TV | ((Sonic games (handheld))) | ((Sonic games (spin off))) | ((Sonic games (spin off))) | ((Sonic games (spin off))) |
By the above criteria, Shadow qualifies because it involves running and jumping. Sonic Riders does not. Neither does Chaotix, nor any of your other spin offs. Would anyone object if we accepted the above inclusion criteria for the template. It is rather comprehensive. —davidh.oz.au 23:48, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Comments? —davidh.oz.au 00:32, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Sonic Rush is pretty popular, is in the Sonic canon, and really, is the best Sonic game in years (and not my opinion - check GameRankings). Sonic Advances 1-3 and Rush really are not lesser Sonic games. - A Link to the Past (talk) 03:06, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Link, I suggest we accept the above proposal for the time being, with the caveat that the Advance series, Rush, and Rivals be included in this template. Although I am now waiting for someone else to bring up Sonic Riders, I'd rather discuss this further than have a straw poll. However, I will now nip this burning issue it in the bud: Sonic Riders is not a platformer. There. :P —davidh.oz.au 07:34, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I prefer it this way, really. There are enough handheld games to warrant its own template, and removing Advance and Rush would render it pretty small and pitiful. Also, Battle' would have to go with them due to its strong connection with Advance 3. But then again, it's a fighter, so it could go in spin-offs... You know, this is a pretty confusing set-up we've got here. Gurko 12:20, 17 March 2007 (UTC)