Name
Recent edits by LivinRealGüd changed the name from "Joaquín Rafael Phoenix (; born Joaquín Rafael Bottom; October 28, 1974), known formerly as Leaf Phoenix, " to "
Joaquín Rafael Phoenix (; né Bottom; October 28, 1974) an added a note "In his childhood he went by the name Leaf Rafael Phoenix from 1979 to 1989. At age 15, he adopted "Joaquín Rafael Phoenix" as his given name." without changing the source.
I cannot check the source and I am not familiar with the subject but LivinRealGüd made a number of similar changes, many of which have been reverted by several editors. I see two problems: 1) adding a note that may be unsourced. 2) changing the name - was born (or née - is there really a difference for the purpose of names in wiki articles, and why not use the more familiar "born"?) not "Bottom" but "Joaquín Rafael Bottom" - the full legal name not just the surname. Can somebody check this and perhaps other edits by LivinRealGüd? @General Ization: perhaps? Thanks, WikiHannibal (talk) 10:30, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
- Hi there, WikiHannibal! Yes, I just wanted to clean up its presentation as per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people). Subjects with multiple names sometimes have them needlessly bolded (see Wikipedia:Superfluous bolding explained), with undue weight. Names change for a variety of reasons: marriage, personal reasons, assumption of political office, change of gender, etc. Each these instances have specific formatting as per Wikipedia:Article titles#Name changes. For example, note the difference between Jeff Bezos and Bruce Jenner. Jeff Bezos' given name was Jeff Preston Jorgensen before it was changed to Jeff Preston Bezos (after his adoptive father). Note that only his surname changed. Because of this we add the né distinction to indicate that his last name changed. In the case of Bruce Jenner's gender transition to Caitlyn Jenner, her birth name of (William) Bruce Jenner was changed to Caitlyn Marie Jenner. Note that the given, middle, and surname was changed. In that case (per Wikipedia:Article titles#Name changes) we note the legal name in the lede, bolded. It is a case by case basis and varies on the subject. Interesting case studies can be found with other articles (e.g. Napoleon) and this article. Hopefully that was explanatory enough, for more information see: Wikipedia:Article titles#Name changes. All the best. LivinRealGüd (talk) 17:04, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
- Hi, I am relly glad that you tried to explain it I do not know what to make of it. I looked at the links but Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people) does not say anything about "customarily add the né or née". Where did that custom come from? And could you please cite the specific convention from Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people) you follow when editing so that I can understand your reasons? (I did not find anything useful even at Wikipedia:Article titles#Name changes.) Also not sure what your link to Bruce Jenner should have meant; for me it is an example of your edits that were reverted... So this was my response to your explanation but I still have more questions: 1) Is the note you added to this article Joaquin Phoenix sourced or not and if not why do you add unsourced info? 2) Do you think née/né is the same as given name? Because I think it is not. 3) What is the advantage of using née/né instead of "born"? The disadvantage is that it is not generally known, and cofusing. Thanks, WikiHannibal (talk) 17:19, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
- Hi, now I see that you changed your text I was responding to, so I will look at the new version and commanet on it. WikiHannibal (talk) 17:20, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
- So,after reading your new text, my questions remain. I have nothing against the explanation you provided, but my concern is with other aspect of your edits, as indicated by my questions above. (The only new question regarding your new text is about your "In the case of Bruce Jenner's gender transition to Caitlyn Jenner, her birth name of (William) Bruce Jenner was changed to Caitlyn Marie Jenner. Note that the given, middle, and surname was changed." It seems surname was not changed but I suppose that was just your oversight. WikiHannibal (talk) 17:29, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, WikiHannibal, exactly. Because Bruce Jenner's (surname remained unchanged) the full name is spelled out. My apologies for the lack of clarity. Thanks for the questions. The né or née custom comes from Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biographies#Names. Perhaps more useful information will be found there. I was wrong with my Bruce Jenner edit, I was going to correct it but an editor got to it first. :) Let me know if you have anymore questions. LivinRealGüd (talk) 19:34, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
- Hi, thanks for the link, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biographies#Names, mentions né/née only as follows: Maiden names . It is common to give the maiden name (birth name) of a woman better known under her married name, for example: Lucy Washington (née Payne, c. 1772 – 1846), widow of Major George Steptoe Washington ...
- As you can see, it is only about maiden names (e.g nothing about men, or "né") and only abut surnames. But in your edits you use né/née even when surname did not change; what changed was just the first name, or middle name, or their combination changes. "Born" is frequently used in Manual of Style/Biographies and I do not see a reason why it cannot be used even instead of née. But the main point is that né/née can be used only when the surname/family name is changed. I also repeat my questions you seem to have missed:
- 1) Is the note you added to this article Joaquin Phoenix sourced or not and if not why do you add unsourced info?
- 2) Do you think née/né is the same as given name? (Because I think it is not.)
- 3) What is the advantage of using née/né instead of "born"? (The disadvantage is that it is not generally known, and cofusing.)
- I would welcome if you could go through your recent edits and undo at least those that introduced né/née incorrectly, and/or added unsourced information. You know better than anybody what changes you made and why. Thanks, --WikiHannibal (talk) 20:06, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
- Sorry, I missed that you added sources. Thanks. But sitll, "Aged four, Gladiator star Joaquin Phoenix, jealous of his siblings' exotic earth-hippy monikers, decided to change his name to Leaf." could mean he changed it in 1978 or 1979, isn't that so? Did I miss somethin else in the texts? WikiHannibal (talk) 20:24, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
- To question 1: I didn't actually add any new information I just took what was already the main part and brought it into the lead. If there is a content issue with that you should contact the editor who added that in as they would know more about that. Question 2: née/né according to Given name is "used to indicate the name at birth". Question 3: The advantage to using née/né instead of born (which is instead moved closer to the date), is that you can shorten the lead sentence (see MOS:FIRST and MOS:FIRST). For names where just the surname was changed (in the case of marriage, adoption, etc.) it clarifies the lead sentence so it is easier to read. For example, William Jefferson Clinton (né Blythe III) is a lot easier to read than William Jefferson Clinton (born William Jefferson Blythe II) was.... Yes, I realize I did a few edits incorrectly and have fixed most of them. I'm not adding any unsourced material in so far that I am not adding any new content whatsoever. All I am doing is reformatting the lead sentence to make it easier to read. Basically, if the surname has changed, I have used the ne/nee formatting. Fairly prominent articles feature that such as U.S. Senator Elizabeth Warren and Jeff Bezos (which were there before I started editing). LivinRealGüd (talk) 21:44, 24 January 2018 (UTC)