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So give WebCite your money.

If I've posted something on your talk page, please reply there rather than here. Any new question or comment at the bottom of the page, please. If you post something here, I'll reply here.

From time to time non-confirmed editors won't be able to edit this page. If you can't post a message to me here, please do so here.

Thanks for your wisdom

Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl
A wise owl
Hoary is defined as : #1 white or grey with age #2 ancient and venerable. Worthy, my wise and venerable friend, I gift you with this beautiful Snowy Owl, who may personify "Hoary". No generic smiles or "wikilove" templates. Just a photograph that I hope you will enjoy, as thanks for your friendly helpfulness.
Tribe of Tiger Let's Purrfect! 01:39, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Your talkpage caveats regarding generic smiles and "wikilove" templates made me chuckle. "Wikilove" is a nice sentiment, but a dreadful name. I couldn't resist the challenge, and will watch your page "avidly". Best wishes! Tribe of Tiger Let's Purrfect! 01:55, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Oh, thank you. Yes, I do like owls. In the spirit of Wikipedia, didja know that the Japanese word for bird is normally written , that a number of the Japanese words for particular species of bird can be written with plus something (for example kamo, , meaning "duck"), but the only Japanese words (that I can think of) for particular species of bird whose characters subtract something are karasu, (you have to look closely), meaning "crow", and fukurō, 梟, meaning "owl". -- Hoary (talk) 02:05, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
Oh, no, I have no knowledge of this, and even with enlarging my screen, my old eyes have difficulty discerning the difference. I knew you were a very wise bird! My main association with anything Japanese, has to with the marvelous art of Shibori, which I studied, for a number of years, through week-long workshops, poring over books, and weeks/months/years of experimentation. After becoming somewhat proficient, I began to produce and sell my artwork. An (American) friend purchased one of my shibori neckties, and wore it during a business trip to Japan. He reported that his Japanese business colleagues immediately recognized the shibori technique, and were very impressed that an American artist had produced his necktie, and, I suspect, that an American man would value it, and wear it. This seemed to be an ice-breaker, as far as his business trip went. I had forgotten about this good memory. I have a rather large collection of shibori patterned fabrics, purchased from Japan. After this conversation, I think I will be opening drawers, looking in closets, and marveling over astonishingly beautiful fabrics, once again! I am so glad you liked the snowy owl, and I am grateful to you, for causing me to recall happy memories! Warmly, Tribe of Tiger Let's Purrfect! 03:23, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Draft: The Goblin Club

Hi Hoary!

I hope you are well.

I was wondering whether you could help me with my page (Draft:The Goblin Club) and get it approved. Any help or advice would be much appreciated! :)

Best wishes,


Unfortunately I can't read the FT article. A quick look at the descriptions of the other sources suggests that they're all local. I have trouble discerning notability here, I'm sorry to say. -- Hoary (talk) 13:24, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Happy First Edit Day!

Happy First Edit Day!

Have a very happy first edit anniversary!

From the Birthday Committee, CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 01:17, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

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File:S.M.I.L.A by Alexander Ozolin .mp3

Hi Hoary, you replied about this file that it warrants "fair use", but violates the "WP:CSD#F7". Let me elaborate details about this file:

I need to request undelete the file, and I am obligated to fulfill its necessity until I completely understand the concept of WP:NFCC#8. The Supermind (talk) 16:27, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

A file can't have a "fair use" status. Arguably, it can have a "fair use" status for a particular purpose. You would be claiming "fair use" within the article Kiev Day and Night; whether your claim would be justified would depend on a number of factors. The file was deleted by Explicit. If you want to argue for its restoration, you should ask Explicit (at User talk:Explicit). ¶ As you may know, "deleted" files aren't really deleted, and it should be no harder to restore the file in (say) 2022 than to restore it right now. I suggest that you concentrate on the text of the article before worrying about which "media" to attach to it. Looking at the text, I immediately see two kinds of problem. First, while much of it is easy to understand, it includes material that I don't understand at all. An example is the sentence "The second season was increased by 25% and critically collapsed the exceeding rate in total by 50% while premiering season five, resulted in cancellation on January 8, 2019". Secondly, it casually includes unreferenced evaluations: "Well-known deluxe poster", "Three notable soundtracks were produced", etc. -- Hoary (talk) 23:41, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

OK, I removed some stuffs as you mentioned, I really concerned with S.M.I.L.A section. Now I insert some commentary that is independent to original claims. The Supermind (talk) 08:49, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

You're improving it. Good! But there's a lot more work to be done. For example: "The music video features Alexander with Albina and her husband Oleksandr." No: people should normally be referred to by surname. -- Hoary (talk) 12:13, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Great! Thanks, I haven't review the other aspects of article. Done. What should we do next? I have already requested undeletion to Explicit. The Supermind (talk) 17:12, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Best wishes for the holidays

Season's Greetings
Wishing you and yours a Happy Holiday Season, and all best wishes for the New Year! Adoration of the Magi (Jan Mostaert) is my Wiki-Christmas card to all for this year. Johnbod (talk) 12:11, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
Thank you, Johnbod! It's a fine painting and a fine article. Thank you for your good work on it, and the very best solstice-into-January season to you too. -- Hoary (talk) 08:30, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Happy holidays

This year, many people had COVID to fear,
The holidays are getting near,
One thing that will be clear,
We will still have holiday cheer,
Happy holidays and happy new year!!
From Interstellarity (talk) 14:01, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, Interstellarity! And the same to you. Yes, I have a pile of things to do, but tomorrow shan't do any of them and shall instead unglue my rear end from this or any chair for an entire day. (Back to work the day after, though.) -- Hoary (talk) 08:33, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

About Draft:Mark Cross (artist)

Hi! Thanks for your review and comments. Yes, most are articles about the artist in "art magazines" (I think it is better to call them that way), which include text and his works, they are spaces in those publications dedicated exclusively to him. The links that I included in that section are direct to each specific publication, where the artist is mentioned. Unfortunately many of these contents are not online, I have some PDFs about those contents but I understand that it is not appropriate to upload them as images. As for each of these media is less than four pages, I understand that you mean the length of the articles about the artist? if so, I don't see anything wrong with the coverage being 3 or 4 pages. Please let me know if I misinterpreted your comment. Thanks!Cmparma (talk) 19:11, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

The first question you should ask yourself about Cross is whether he satisfies WP:ARTIST. (I note that he has won various awards; but most, if not all, seem obscure, and the references for his having won them aren't articles in art magazines or even the awarding institutions, but instead the website of a company promoting and selling his work.) If he doesn't satisfy WP:ARTIST, then the second question is whether he satisfies WP:GNG in some other way. If he doesn't, then (regardless of the quality of his work) an article about him won't survive at Wikipedia. Let's suppose for a moment that he does satisfy WP:GNG (e.g. via WP:ARTIST). Well, what can you say about him? If these articles about him contain worthwhile material (and if this isn't mere recycling of the same stuff), then summarize this material and cite it. As for appearances in magazines, we normally ignore these. Worthy exceptions include what's described in the article Chris Killip as "Chris Killip Photographs 1975–1976 in the North East". London: Creative Camera, May 1977, Number 155, entire issue. because (i) it was unusually large (indeed, the entire issue of Creative Camera), and (ii) it has been written about (though the Wikipedia article doesn't currently describe this). -- Hoary (talk) 00:27, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Hello Sir, can you help me with this article.

hello sir, i am a new wikipedia user, i am trying to contribute to wikipedia. i am basically from kashmir and i want to contribute to wikipedia with kashmiri notable articles. i have started drafting my first article on a kashmiri entrepreneur and i have checked it multiple times and it looks fine to me now, but since i am new i might be wrong, can you kindly assist and guide me on this article. please see if more information is required or it is enough. i'll be very thankful if you help me with my first article and also help me to publish it to main space.

Link of the draft:-

and as you wrote earlier that this person is only notable for kashbook, check refrences he is the founder of india's leading esport organisation as well namely stalwart esports.

Thanks and regards humsar.Hums4r (talk) 03:04, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Your list of contributions shows that you have sent the identical message to a number of people. Therefore I'll reply at the Teahouse. -- Hoary (talk) 08:31, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

thanks for letting me know about submission processes,

Hello, i happen to know him, but this is not a COI, I have gone through all the articles myself. this is the only reason i want to do article on him, also i am planning to do article mainly on notable kashmiri people. i think people should know about him (He has been very notable in news in 2017 and now with his new startup 'Stalwart Esports' he's making it to news again and thats why i wanted to do it on him,my formatting might be wrong but i am learning it all) and other kashmiri's as well since everyone looks up for information on wikipedia only. i am new to wikipedia and still learning on how to make edits, i was unable to move the article to mainspace and i googled about it and it showed me that you need an old account to move it, so i asked Zeyan if he has an old account and if he can move it, since i didnt know about AfC process, i admit my mistake and apologise for it, i have submitted it through AfC. i'll make sure this doesnt get repeated, and my reason for asking multiple users about the draft was to ask them to review it if there are any mistakes in the article. and i have updated the sources for the pictures as well,kindly check. I am sorry for the earlier incorrect source. i am learning about all the rules of wiki slowly and i look forward to improve things The reason i am posting this message here as well is to let you know about my response, i dont know if you will get any notification of my response at teahouse question.

Draft:Zeyan Shafiq Hums4r (talk) 01:00, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. I've responded at the Teahouse. -- Hoary (talk) 05:16, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Joseph Chila

Dear Hoary hello and happy new year I am writing since I see the addition that I added to the Josph Chila talk page early in december still hasn't been added to the main page which you advised me not to edit because of CoI. If you could take a look that would be appreciated Also the parallel Samuel Finlak page still is unapproved in draft best wishes davidz Dz3 (talk) 10:20, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

And a happy new year to you! Sorry, I really don't think that the proposed addition to Joseph Chila is worthwhile: see Talk:Joseph Chila. As for Draft:Samuel Finlak, it hasn't been submitted for approval: please add ((subst:submit)) to it, and be patient. (More precisely, use the source editor -- not the visual editor -- to add what you see above when you are not editing this: "subst:submit", minus quotation marks, plus doubled braces, but not the "nowiki" or "DarkRed" stuff.) -- Hoary (talk) 23:37, 18 January 2021 (UTC)


Stumbled across one of your AfC declines. "Chrestomathy". What a great word! Just wanted to express my appreciation for your unintentional teaching moment. It's not often I come upon unfamiliar words (and I'm a language nerd of the first order). This one I'm going to put to good use!)--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 13:33, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Fuhghettaboutit, I'd quite forgotten -- and I still don't remember which of the many AfC declinings that might have been. But thank you for the link to that dodgy article, for its link to the very strange "Ibis Chrestomathy" (by the author of, and somehow related to, the Ibis trilogy). If you enjoy the discovery of unfamiliar words, this is the place to go. But as the trilogy is fiction and the author (previously unknown to me) is primarily a novelist, the content (complete with references to actual lexicographers and dictionaries) may be fictional too. Still, words invented for fiction (chortle, etc) can and do become accepted parts of the language, so one might employ others' inventions regardless. -- Hoary (talk) 23:15, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Journalists killed in Tunisia

A tag has been placed on Category:Journalists killed in Tunisia requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Liz Read! Talk! 15:37, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Re. clause

Speaking of non-finite clause versus nonfinite phrase, please see my edit here. Does the edit accord with a reputable publication? Yes. Do I stand by the edit? Yes, as it accords with my own lexicon. Will the edit satisfy even 50% of the people who care? Probably not. I'm not holding my breath waiting to see how long to takes before someone reverts the edit. I'll be shocked if the edit stays untouched for an entire week. No, I won't be offended if you get the jump on everyone and revert it yourself. For me, this is a bit like watching linguists who agree on using a decimal numbering system without consensus whether the number that follows 5 should be a 6 or a 9. --Kent Dominic·(talk) 14:04, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Please see Talk:Non-finite clause. -- Hoary (talk) 23:40, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

damn bot

Hoary, I read this fascinating article about a slave reparation lawsuit and thought you might enjoy it. ta-ta. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 06:00, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Playing Angels Edits

Hi Hoary, Thank you for your edits on the Playing Angels page! In response to your question about whether or not the statues would be considered cherubs, they're definetely not the sterotypical chubby angel baby type of figures, more athletic and slightly older, so I'm not sure if this would make them cherubs or something else. I'm no expert on angels though, so if you feel that they are free to make that change. Thanks again --Zthistle2102 (talk) 07:34, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Zthistle2102, I'm glad I could help, a little. But unfortunately angels, cherubim, seraphim and the like are among my numerous areas of ignorance. -- Hoary (talk) 07:40, 9 March 2021 (UTC)


As a collector of antique tools, I have had occasion to try my hand with an adze. The best advice I got was "wear shin guards." I also have a railroad spike remover (and a bucket full of railroad spikes rescued from old track that was to be removed for creation of a rail trail), a 13-tine ensilage fork, a "plug drill" used to make holes in granite as prep for splitting, and two ice saws. There is an anecdote about Henry David Thoreau: when a crew showed up at Walden Pond to cut ice, the winter he was living there, he pestered them with so many questions that they asked him if he wanted to man the bottom end of an ice saw. David notMD (talk) 14:05, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Somewhere I have a bagful of decades-old Elliott-Lucas pliers, and I have a handful of freewheel extractors (and even know where they are), but that's about it for non-hundrum tools. I just wish I were more proficient at using what tools I already have. Talk of accidents and the "railroad spike remover" reminds me of the celebrated Phineas Gage, whose fate always makes me shudder. -- Hoary (talk) 22:36, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Stas Bartnikas Draft

Hi Hoary! I hope you are well! Thank you for evaluating the draft. You mentioned in the comment that any notable photographer must meet WP:ARTIST criteria for notability. When reading the section on creative professionals' notability, I found this information:

4. “The person's work (or works) has: (a) become a significant monument, (b) been a substantial part of a significant exhibition, (c) won significant critical attention, or (d) been represented within the permanent collections of several notable galleries or museums.

You definitely have much more experience in this but I wonder whether you can re-evaluate based on the fact that Bartnikas might meet criteria of B) and C) since he won a few photography awards (taking 1st or 2nd places) and therefore was reviewed by significant critical attention? If you check his

sections “Notable Photography Awards” and “Exhibitions” and check the sources, you can see that he is not out of the mill photographer.

Please, let me know if I miss something – I'd be glad to receive your guidance and patronage on Wikipedia guidelines and rules! Here is the link to the draft for your convenience (please, no rush!): --Idunnox3 (talk) 03:06, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for asking, Idunnox3. First, I should make it clear that I'm talking about "notability" only as the term is understood in Wikipedia. This notability is only tenuously related to intrinsic worth. There are Wikipedia-notable photographers (whose article-worthiness will never be challenged) who I think may or will (or should) be forgotten. There are notable-in-my-view photographers who will never get articles. ¶ Now, these awards and exhibitions: yes, they're verifiable. Have they received critical attention? Sorry, I'm too busy/lazy to look through the references: could you perhaps give me links to the best three (or four or five, but no more) among them? -- Hoary (talk) 08:42, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Hi Hoary! Many thanks for your feedback and thoughts!

Here are the links to the photography awards and critical reviews on Bartnikas works, please, take a look and let me know what you think:

Chromatic Photo Awards – 1st place (2019):

Moscow International Photo Awards (MIFA) - Gold (2017 and 2018):

Tokyo International Photo Award – Gold prize in Architecture/Industrial + Science/Environment categories (2018):

National Geographic Travel Photo Contest: People’s Choice Award (2019)

(page 9)

And here is a couple of critical reviews on Bartnikas’s artwork, where he is also mentioned as a winner of the Siena International Photo Awards:

Here is one more:

The last thing, I believe that his work has clear patterns of distinguished style, which makes him different from many other artists. Let me know what you think and thank you again for your patience and time! Idunnox3 (talk) 20:24, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

I invited you to give me links to "the best three (or four or five, but no more)" examples of critical attention being paid to SB's work. You've provided two. The piece in "Colossal" is primarily a gallery of SB's work; the text is short, and based on SB's own comments. The piece in "My Modern Met" is again primarily a gallery of SB's work; the text is short, and based on SB's own comments. This simply isn't enough to constitute notability as Wikipedia understands the term. Yes, I think his work is a lot more interesting than that of a number of photographers who clearly meet the notability requirements; but this opinion of mine is of no importance. -- Hoary (talk) 22:44, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

The Original Barnstar
Thank you for helping me at the teahouse. SilverMatsu (talk) 15:20, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Request on 18:44:26, 24 March 2021 for assistance on AfC submission by M2020D

Hello Hoary, thank you so much for your review and comments. My Draft: Genki Kawamura was a direct translation of a preexisting Japanese wiki page of the same. My understanding was that I was not supposed to change the content but translate the material as is. Should I create something anew? Kindly let me know.

M2020D (talk) 18:44, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

I'm not surprised -- though I didn't check, I did think that it looked like a ja:WP article. This is not a compliment: with many honourable exceptions, of course, ja:WP articles tend to be horrible. (Editors there love lists, chronologies, and chronology-like text, and they pile in poorly referenced or unreferenced material.) Now that I look at it, I see that your very first version of the draft of course had markup mistakes and other problems (which didn't matter, because you weren't submitting it), but was very clear not only that it was a translation of a ja:WP article but that it was a translation of a specified version of that article. Excellent! (Though it wasn't necessary to translate all of the article.) Now the problem became one of getting the draft to meet the requirements of en:WP. There's no need to be faithful to the ja:WP original; there is a need to cite sources and to be faithful to the sources that are cited. Other points:
  • A lot of the listed items look trivial even if they are/were verifiable. Are they really needed?
  • No wacky Japanese-style capitalization, please. As an example, nobody will say "tee-eye-eff-eff-aye-enn-why", and therefore not "TIFFANY" but "Tiffany".
  • Book titles that are in Japanese should be presented in (romanized) Japanese. Your English glosses of these titles are very welcome, but the reader shouldn't get the impression that they're actual titles. (There's a complication here, in that a lot of Japanese-only books have supplementary English-language titles. But let's not worry about this unless there are cases of it here.)
  • Ditto for movie titles that are in Japanese, unless there's also an established English title for the movie.
  • Book and movie titles should be italicized, not put in quotes. (I'm assuming that they're in roman letters. If you have a reason to use Japanese script anywhere, then of course this shouldn't be pseudo-italicized.)
What's unreferenced should be removed.
All of this is a pain, of course. Creating good articles (let alone "Good Articles") is hard work, unfortunately. All the best! -- Hoary (talk) 23:12, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Zora Plešnar

Greetings! I saw Zora Plešnar in the New pages feed, but have not been able to improve it much. I thought I might mention it here so that your excellent eyes would be upon it.--- Possibly (talk) 20:41, 25 March 2021 (UTC)


Hello fellow editor, do you remember me? Cheers, Hockeycatcat (talk) 11:52, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Hi. There's this. Why, is anything up? -- Hoary (talk) 12:26, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Happy Adminship Anniversary!

Happy Adminship Anniversary!

Have a very happy adminship anniversary on your special day!

Best wishes, CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 21:24, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

The Original Barnstar
Thank you for reverted the page. From now on, when making edits that cannot be undone by myself, I'll ask to the teahouse before doing that. SilverMatsu (talk) 04:37, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Hoary, your reply is confusing. [...]

This discussion has been closed by Hoary. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed by Hoary. Please do not modify it.

Hoary, your reply is confusing. All the information came from PHD level scholars. It was just formatted as a string to show the evolution of breeding in the Old World, which lasted until about 200 years ago. College Professors have told me people are not ready to be informed yet. Wikipedia needs to get a thread started so you can see the citations and attribute the archeological evidence. Added at 12:40, 14 April 2021 by

If you want to post fantasies on the internet, then please do so on some other website, perhaps your own blog. -- Hoary (talk) 12:56, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Hoary, The following statement came from Wikipedia: 'The murderer had a horse waiting, and would have got away, but the foot of his horse caught in a wild vine, and he was thrown from the saddle by the stumble, and slain by his pursuers.' This is fiction from H.G. Wells! (talk) 13:21, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

The passage is from Philip II page. My family has been in America a long time. They follow the same religious practices as you must. Knowledge to one, might not be agreeable to another. But that would be racism in its purest form. Is Wikipedia racist? (talk) 13:26, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

This is another passage from Wikipedia: 'one of the two epic poems attributed to Homer' - Fiction I can list thousands of pages on Wikipedia that uses fiction to tell stories. I have actual evidence for my poetic strings. What is your thought process for placing such harsh criticism when a number of Wikipedia pages were used in creating it? (talk) 13:47, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia: Plutarch, describing the feud at Philip's wedding. Fiction. Describing Alexander as too effeminate to ever be one capable of fulfilling the conquest of any nation.

All Fiction.— Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs)

You need to read up on some policies here, WP:CITE, WP:VERIFY, WP:RELIABLE and WP:FRINGE. Wikipedia is not a place to post your poetic musings. Continuing in the same vein as your above nonsense is liable to have the admin whose talkpage you are posting on to just block you as WP:NOTHERE. Heiro 14:29, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Alternate universes etc.

Yeah--that person emailed me. They opened with "Hey Doc", which is a great way to start, but then I got that same message about...well. I'm about to drop a few blocks on a few accounts. Ha, I'd forgotten about that template, 👍 Drmies likes this.. Drmies (talk) 19:55, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

I started to read it, and all that was clear was that it was gibberish, written by somebody evading a block, and neither a question (as advertised) nor a plea for help. At that point I stopped reading it. So who's the perp? -- Hoary (talk) 01:34, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Precious anniversary

Two years!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:18, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Mahatma Gandhi

Hello H, hope you and yours are well. I am writing in response to a line in your Teahouse comments on the Beretta book. FYI in the last 90 days Mahatma Gandhi wiki article had 18,500 views ... per day. He is a fairly famous person now, and was certainly a fairly globally-prominent person in 1948 (the year of his death). Looking at the Trove digitised Australian historical newspapers, there were some 80 articles published about him before his death on the 30th January, and some 440 for the rest of the year. I acknowledge the intense interest in a former British colony in another British colony (and there had been substantial people and goods travel between the two), but I suggest that in fact many areas of the world were watching the Indian Independence movement and the tactics of its perceived leader, Gandhi. That's all, keep up the good work you do making WP a better place. Brunswicknic (talk) 12:31, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Brunswicknic, perhaps it looks as if I was denigrating Gandhi. This wasn't my intention. I imagine that he was, by some margin, the most famous Indian of his day. I'm not surprised by the number of his appearances in (to take your example) Australian newspapers. Readers the world over of "quality" newspapers would have read of it, as would people listening to the news on non-commercial (and possibly even commercial) radio stations. But who says his murder shook the entire world, where do they say it, and, even if it can be substantiated, why does this need to be said in an article that may or may or may not emerge from this puff-piece about a self-published novel? -- Hoary (talk) 22:03, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Samuel Finlak

we corresponded a while back about Jospeh Chila. A related/ parallel entry is still languishing in draft If you could have a look it would be appreciated. Also there's stuff on Chila's talk page for an update (granted Ive said I won't do it myself) many thanks david Dz3 (talk) 17:31, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Dz3, Draft:Samuel Finlak: done; Joseph Chila: is there some suggested addition other than the Vogue photo? -- Hoary (talk) 23:22, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks H. I take your point about the photo in Vogue: big deal for him, less so for the world! best wishes davidz Dz3 (talk) 08:04, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Thomas Vijayan

Hello Hoary. I wonder if you might give your notability opinion on the above photographer? I have half a mind to send it to AfD, but want a second opinion first. Thanks. --- Possibly (talk) 05:20, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

I can't work up any enthusiasm for or against deletion. I, in Tokyo, had never heard of the "Tokyo Foto Awards" until I first read of them in somewhat desperate en:WP articles. Once I had heard of them, I looked at their website and nothing there looked at all familiar. It seems to be merely a CV-stuffing scheme, very similar to the "Moscow Foto Awards" (and run by the same company). On the other hand winning the contest hosted by the Natural History Museum (London) seems quite something. My problem is that I know very little about nature photography. One thing I do happen to know is that one of its most renowned exponents is Frans Lanting, and I note that the en:WP article about him is unimpressive. (The article Eric Hosking is far more interesting, but the degree of referencing is terrible.) Is the problem perhaps that people hardly write about such photography? The books come out, and they're given as presents; but I don't recall seeing criticism about any (unless perhaps it's monochrome). Vijayan's photographs are highly proficient and must have taken him considerable time and effort; also, unlike a lot of photographers of "nature" (e.g. Lanting at times), he doesn't go in for color filters and such gimmickry. It does seem strange that people like this don't get articles whereas people who walk up and down runways and are photographed wearing clothes do get them. But then, WP-style "notability" is only tenuously related to actual notability. -- Hoary (talk) 06:10, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Teahouse responses

Some of your responses on Teahouse haven't been very helpful. You should probably take a look at what they're asking and give them the appropriate answer. For example, there's a reference desk for questions not related to Wikipedia specifically and you told someone who asked a question that would've been great there to look it up in their search engine. Blaze The Wolf | Proud Furry and Wikipedia Editor (talk) 12:38, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Well hello, Blaze The Wolf. One response aside, I don't know which responses you're referring to. As for the response that you suggested should be ignored, I was/am well aware of the reference desks (plural), and (rightly or wrongly) was sure that this would be a poor question to ask at the "miscellaneous" refdesk but an excellent one for duckduckgoing, what with an abundance of helpful videos at Youtube and elsewhere. That said, if I may quote another editor, there are sure to be times when "my replies aren't exactly the best"; you may wish to initiate a discussion about them (either in general, or particularly egregious examples) at the talk page. -- Hoary (talk) 22:49, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
ALright. Just wanted to make you aware. If I came off as rude, I didn't mean it. Just trying to give some advice. Also, I admit that I probably shouldn't have said "Ignore Hoary's response" as your response was also helpful. Blaze The Wolf | Proud Furry and Wikipedia Editor (talk) 22:55, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
Also, is there some way to disable the thing on your talk page that says "People need Wikipedia"? It's kinda an eyesore to look at Blaze The Wolf | Proud Furry and Wikipedia Editor (talk) 22:58, 6 May 2021 (UTC)


This is so educative and really leaves room for so much more for me to learn. I guess my idea of seeking to promote greater youth involvement in national leadership contributes to shaping my style of writing on these related subjects. It is my desire to use this platform to promote a better narrative for the need to have more younger leaders in national leadership in Nigeria. Thank you. Bibihans (talk)Bibihans — Preceding undated comment added 12:27, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Draft: Sushil Chandra Roychowdhury

As I am new to wikipedia, could you please review my referencing and article citation. Since I had to give a proof I posted the pictures of the articles in Wikimedia commons. ThanksAditya Roychowdhury - Periodic Table (talk) 15:47, 30 May 2021 (UTC) Aditya Roychowdhury - Periodic Table (talk) 15:47, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Please help me to give the COI also. This method in the article is not working.

Aditya Roychowdhury - Periodic Table (talk) 15:49, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Connected contributor|User1=Your username |U1-declared=yes| U1-otherlinks=(Optional) Insert relevant affiliations, disclosures, article drafts or diffs showing COI contributions. Aditya Roychowdhury - Periodic Table (talk) 15:49, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

The article now shows the COI template. I haven't bothered to check who put it there or when it was put there, but it wasn't my doing. -- Hoary (talk) 22:59, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

I see that you have edited the article and removed the deletion template. So is it suitable for re-submission and acceptance? Aditya Roychowdhury - Periodic Table (talk) 03:03, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Aditya Roychowdhury, it now seems to say very little. Please see the suggestions that I posted a couple of minutes ago to the top of the draft. -- Hoary (talk) 03:21, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

About comments in Draft: Fabiana Barreda

Hello, thank you very much for the comments to improve my first article in English. I really didn't know that I should put the titles of the references in the original language. I will change the titles to their original language. On the other hand, I understand the comment about the references. So I will make the improvements. Thank you.--DianaMTancredi (talk) 20:55, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

DianaMTancredi, this is an example of the kind of thing that you have to do. (The fields -- "url-status", "trans-title", etc -- can be in any order.) -- Hoary (talk) 23:30, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Confusing words

My apologies about my answer. When I said "rich and famous" I was really meaning that the artist is notable. I was just attempting to use the user's own words to answer the question and clearly failed. I know not all music artists were literally rich and/or famous. Blaze The Wolf | Proud Furry and Wikipedia Editor (talk) 17:28, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

No worries, Blaze! Incidentally:
  • I'm puzzled/amused by the recent insistence (there, not yours but the questioner's) on "act" (or "artist"). Perhaps it's supposed to sound more impressive than "musician" (or "singer", "guitarist", or whatever).
  • This suggests that actual riches and fame go together with grotesquely bad taste.
Happy editing! -- Hoary (talk) 22:25, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

A kitten for you!

thanks for your time spent for me

T.Yusherova (talk) 06:11, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Well thank you, Tatiana. I wish you the best with your draft -- though I have to say that I'm less interested in Ukrainian models than in Ukrainian photographers, who are underrepresented in English-language Wikipedia. Unfortunately I can't read material in Ukrainian or Russian, so don't know if there is much good material about (for example) the pair who made this book; but if there is, I'd like to read the article. -- Hoary (talk) 07:49, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
This is a very good choice !!! I will try to help you))) added at 08:55, 4 June 2021 by T.Yusherova
Looking forward to it, Tatiana -- but again, make sure that there's a substantial amount of material (in any language) about one or both of these men in reliable, independent, published sources before you start to write a draft about either or both of them. And I've just noticed the existence of the article Kharkiv School of Photography; this is already a surprisingly ambitious article but one that I'm sure can be improved here and there. -- Hoary (talk) 12:56, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

I posted a draft About Sergey Kochetov, but it was deleted. Sorry you didn't see the article. There is very little material about Sergei Kochetov. Sergey also supported separatists in my country. There is a little more about Victor, but he died.

"you removed two earlier AFC-related notices. Do not remove such notices" - it was error

Tatiana, Draft:Sergey Kochetov wasn't deleted. It wasn't even rejected. It was declined, that's all. The draft needs a lot more care.
  • The draft starts by calling him "Sergsy", which of course is just a typo for "Sergey"; but after that it can't decide whether he's Sergey or Serhiy. Of course these are the Russian-language and the Ukrainian-language versions respectively of what is commonly regarded as the same name, so using them both isn't a mistake, but it is odd. (Of course, quotations must be faithful to the originals.)
  • There are two references. They're presented as if they were in English, but actually one is in Russian and one is in Ukrainian. It should be clear that they are not in English. (English translations of the titles may be added to the Russian/Ukrainian titles, but may not replace them.)
  • The long lists of exhibitions are completely unreferenced.
Incidentally, I hadn't known that he'd been arrested, let alone convicted, for helping the Luhansk regime. That's a big surprise. I'd expect that this would make him very unpopular among the majority of the population of Kyiv. So what's also a big surprise is reading that while doing prison time for this, he was (you say) given a solo exhibition in Kyiv. -- Hoary (talk) 01:16, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Sybarite Jewellery

Hello, Hoary, I've updated remaining only facts and added awards and exhibitions sections - could you please re-check it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ostashevskiy (talkcontribs) 10:21, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Ostashevskiy, I'll defer to some other reviewer. -- Hoary (talk) 12:56, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
Hoary thanks ;) Ostashevskiy (talk) 09:56, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
Just up your street, isn't it, Hoary? You like luxury jewelry, I know. Ostashevskiy, is that really the revised version showing now? Yes, I see it is. It remains unambiguous advertising or promotion, and I have speedy deleted it as such. Tipoff: words such as "innovative", "thrilled", "exclusive", "rarified magic", "iconic", "landmark" (twice in one sentence), "unmissable", "exquisite", "widely known", or "lavish" have no place in encyclopedic writing. Nor does general upbeat marketingspeak such as "fans of the brand spanning the worlds of acting, music and fashion". Bishonen | tålk 11:57, 9 June 2021 (UTC).
Jewelry, Bishonen? I'll settle for nothing less than the legendarily iconic, unless perhaps it's the iconically legendary. -- Hoary (talk) 13:11, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
Pity it's not your favorite, a men's luxury iconic watch brand that makes the wearer feel like he's a deep sea diver/astronaut. Bishonen | tålk 13:27, 9 June 2021 (UTC).
Bishonen, unsure whether I should go for iridium or osmium for my luxury artisanal timepiece, I eventually decided that either would weigh too damn much, so I settled for the very finest coprolite. Wearing it, I know that I am a netscape navigator. -- Hoary (talk) 02:38, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
Wow, that draft should be preserved somewhere as an example of promotional-advertising-marketing editing on steroids. I own a luxury timepiece, by the way. It is a Samsung Galaxy S21 Ultra that also allows me to make phone calls, send emails, surf the web and edit Wikipedia. Plus, it has five, count em, five cameras! Cullen328 Let's discuss it 02:55, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
Cullen328, I'm now onto my second luxury artisanal executive communication module. It offers to help me waste my time in a variety of ways that its maker hopes will appeal to me, and it reliably tells the time too; but unlike a wrist-based luxury artisanal timepiece, it doesn't say to the world "I have transcended petty worldly affairs such as paying my taxes." -- Hoary (talk) 05:51, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, I am the type of self-employed person who records and reports every penny of my income to the authorities. I actually photograph stacks of $100.00 bills with my smartphone, right before depositing them into my business bank account. Then, I email the photo to my business email account. IRS, I'm clean! Cullen328 Let's discuss it 07:06, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
Cullen, if you are that impressed by this draft (again, note it's post-revision), you probably haven't seen Draft:Butler Leather Goods Factory, which I just noticed being rejected on Theroadislong's page. (Oh, look, it just got deleted, what a shame.) It has a whole separate very fine crop of words and expressions, which would have done well in our jewelry article. In no particular order: "unwavering", "scrupulous", "upscale", "passion", "fervour", "precise", "utmost care and attention", "craftsmanship", "dexterity", "beautiful", "expertise" (indeed "strength of his expertise due to his skills"), "emotional intelligence", "imbibed" (?), "raced along", "paved the way", "international standards of quality" (and that's just the machinery), "honest" (that's the material: leather is "one of the most honest materials known to the man", also possessing "natural beauty" and being a "living breathing material") "know-how", "vision", "lifestyle", "honed skills", "creative", "enhanced", "customer centric", "sustainable". Hello there, Theroadislong! What a life! I can't fathom why you wouldn't help the UPE on your own unpaid time. It's interesting the way they are comfortable admitting that they gamed the autoconfirmed requirements in order to be able to create articles directly in mainspace.[1] What a prize. Indeed, I think I'll just block them for disruption. Bishonen | tålk 09:29, 11 June 2021 (UTC).
What a hoot! Thanks for cheering a grey morning in Cornwall amidst G7 shenanigans. Theroadislong (talk) 09:36, 11 June 2021 (UTC)


Hello Hoary! Interstellarity (talk) has given you a bit of sunshine to brighten your day! Sunshine promotes WikiLove and hopefully it has made your day better. Spread the sunshine by adding ((subst:User:Meaghan/Sunshine)) to someone else's talk page, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. In addition, you can spread the sunshine to anyone who visits your userpage and/or talk page by adding ((User:Meaghan/Sunshine icon)). Happy editing! Interstellarity (talk) 20:12, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Happy first day of summer, Hoary!! Interstellarity (talk) 20:12, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Some bubble tea for you!

Hi! I hope I can make a request having an entry for Vance Larena. he belongs to the same management with Kelvin Miranda and Jane De Leon. Thanks! Beautyscars (talk) 09:31, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
Thank you for the tea, but please see 331dot's comment about notability. -- Hoary (talk) 12:18, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Request on 10:29:10, 21 June 2021 for assistance on AfC submission by Editing53

I have now added independent sources including articles in Vogue, Elle, Architecture Digest, It's Nice That, GQ, Telegraph, The Hindu, Mid-Day and the Netflix show profiling the artist. Let me know if there's anything else I can do.


Editing53 (talk) 10:29, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Editing53, please start by implementing the changes to Draft:Sameer Kulavoor that two other editors and I have requested there. -- Hoary (talk) 02:50, 22 June 2021 (UTC)


Greetings Hoary! I am sorry about this. I didn't know that this wasn't allowed nor had I ever heard the term "meat-puppet" or what it means. Anyways, thanks for alerting me. Thanks and best wishes.

Peter Ormond 💬 03:52, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Peter Ormond, it's very simple. You are blocked at Commons. As I understand it, there are two problems: violating copyright, and block evasion by use of a sockpuppet. The block is indefinite. This means that you should either (A) go away, or (B) appeal for an end to the block. There is no third course. Asking other people -- whether here, on some other website, or face to face -- to do your bidding at Commons is further block evasion. I suggest that you make no image-related edits (e.g. swapping one image for another) on Wikipedia (the English one or any other) until you have succeeded in having the Commons block lifted, and that you don't attempt to have the Commons block lifted for at least another three months. -- Hoary (talk) 05:05, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Team house

Hey I found the image on Apple music and copyright belong to the artist. Menu maharaj (talk) 07:39, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Menu maharaj, please say this at Wikipedia:Teahouse#Music_album_cover. -- Hoary (talk) 08:00, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Articles for Creation July 2021 Backlog Elimination Drive

Hello Hoary:

WikiProject Articles for creation is holding a month long Backlog Drive!
The goal of this drive is to eliminate the backlog of unreviewed articles. The drive is running until 31 July 2021.

Barnstars will be given out as awards at the end of the drive.
There is currently a backlog of over 2800 articles, so start reviewing articles. We're looking forward to your help!

Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) on behalf of Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for Creation at 21:53, 7 July 2021 (UTC). If you do not wish to recieve future notification, please remove your name from the mailing list.

Regarding republication of wiki page, converted in to draft.

Sir my one Wikipedia page has been converted into draft..,what to do..? Plz help me in its republishment. Mr bond. .isaahmad (talk) 19:07, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Please specify which draft this is. -- Hoary (talk) 22:13, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Reply At Teahouse

Whilst this reply is correct I do not think it’s a good idea to make NEWBIES feel as though it’s that much of a big deal. Celestina007 (talk) 00:20, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Um, as though what is that big a deal? -- Hoary (talk) 00:49, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Etiquette question?

Is it considered rude to publicly ask about wiki-drama that you come across on other people's talk pages during your normal course of editing wikipedia? Like say I go to your talk page to leave you a message because we're editing the same article, but I come across a rather-markedly mysterious or puzzling incident that you are involved in. I feel like if I publicly ask you about it, it draws more attention to it and makes it seem like I presume a right to know about it, even though it's none of my business! Your thoughts? LaceyUF (talk) 00:50, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes, if you publicly ask me about something, your doing so may draw more attention to it. (Probably not much more, as I am an obscure and uninteresting contributor to Wikipedia, whose talk page probably interests very few people.) If you emailed me to ask me, I'd probably ignore the message. -- Hoary (talk) 01:14, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
This is what I figured. Thanks for your honest feedback! LaceyUF (talk) 01:25, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for participating in my RFA

Appreciate your support and trust. Please contact me if I can be helpful. BusterD (talk) 05:57, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Jaiden Animations draft

So is this ready to pass notability? Please see Draft talk:Jaiden Animations and chime in on whether this is now ready to pass notability. If enough of the objectors in AFC and AFDs are on board, we can push to remove the salt. AngusW🐶🐶F (barksniff) 18:15, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

RfC notice

This is a neutral notice sent to all non-bot/non-blocked registered users who edited Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Linguistics in the past year that there is a new request for comment at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Linguistics § RfC: Where should so-called voiceless approximants be covered?. Nardog (talk) 10:53, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

David Provoost

Thanks so much for your comments and help!

Vedlagt (talk) 06:28, 28 July 2021 (UTC)


Hi , I read your review . I made the page so that more things about the topic which do not need to be there thats. on the main article there should be things which greatly affected the state and his successors and his very notable things but there should be also a place where one can find more info about the topic that's why i made it , please help me out like what things i should add in it and in what ways i should edit it so that it gets accepted next time :) Gaurav 3894 (talk) 13:24, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Gaurav 3894, if you're writing about Draft:Mahip Narayan Singh, then what you have to do there is add significant (non-trivial) material, of course based on reliable, published references, to a point where it's obvious that the draft already says a lot more than could be said within the article Narayan dynasty. I cannot help you with this task, because I lack reference material about this subject. -- Hoary (talk) 22:05, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

thanks Gaurav 3894 (talk) 02:49, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Draft:ĐÀO Minh Quân Declined

Hello sir, With all due respect, I created this article after doing my research. This man is noteworthy you will know once you search for him on Google. He has literally brought a revolution in Vietnam. His contributions are important for the history of this country. I fail to understand sir. Please get back to me because i really need to know your point of view. --Discologist (talk) 08:01, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Which part of the comment that I added to Draft:ĐÀO Minh Quân is unclear (or mistaken)? -- Hoary (talk) 08:28, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Your reply to MikeVdP

Thank you for your considered reply to MikeVdP. I have made some effort to elaborate on the matter in two separate comments left on their talk page. I pinged you in one of them. This note is in case the other will interest you as well. FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 08:21, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Japanese photographers

Heyyyy I'm not sure if you remember my little crusade against Japanese photographer stub-orphans, but I've come across Shinichiro Kobayashi and Tadayuki Kawahito. Before I drop PRODs on them, can you have a look and let me know if you think they're worth rescuing? ♠PMC(talk) 05:21, 6 August 2021

No, PMC, they're not. This isn't to say that the two people don't merit articles. Putting aside Wikipedia definitions, guidelines, etc, for a moment, I'd say that both are sufficiently notable for articles. But of course that is unimportant; what matters is: Does either meet WP:ARTIST or whatever? Offhand, I don't know. You'll see that ja:WP has an "article" on Kobayashi. It's stereotypically bad (a series of lists), but it does correctly say that he was born in 1956. Some English-reading IP was sufficiently interested in Kobayashi to give him a fictional birthdate. Let's face it: the entire oeuvre of a pretty remarkable Japanese photographer is of much less interest to most Wikipedia editors (and probably to most Wikipedia vandals too) than is, say, a frock. I'm an exception ... but I'm so lazy these days.... Hoary (talk) 07:15, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
Hello, PMC? Since you didn't (as far as I know) move to zap either of these pathetic little stubs, I decided that it was irresponsible to permit one of them to perpetuate a blatant untruth. And therefore this edit. Comments? -- Hoary (talk) 23:44, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Yikes, really sorry, I cleared the original notification with every intention to reply and then forgot all about it :| (I have what is clinically referred to as a goldfish memory). Your edit looks good, thank you for always being willing to look at these for me. I haven't done my usual checks for Kawahito yet, but I will shortly and then go from there. ♠PMC(talk) 23:55, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

It took less time to convert Kobayashi's "article" from semi-fraudulent substub to feeble but accurate stub than it did to attempt but fail to link between the feeble English thing and the feeble Japanese thing. Grrr! -- Hoary (talk) 00:37, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
Well, PMC, that's now fixed. As you'll recall, the "article" on Kobayashi snoozed for an entire decade as a single sentence; whereupon some moron IP decided to add a little fiction to it. I thought I should look into the single (sourced!) sentence. I should have guessed: it had been plagiarized. I've now fixed that too. -- Hoary (talk) 02:31, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Hey Hoary, finally got a chance to look at Tadayuki Kawahito. Tried his name English and Japanese-style, and the Japanese characters as well, and came up with nothing substantive. I'm going to stick a PROD on it, but obviously I'd be quite happy to see you remove it if you find anything about him that I didn't find. (As for the plagiarism - nothing surprises me in that vein anymore.) ♠PMC(talk) 06:06, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Well PMC, he occupies page 97 of that 328 Outstanding Japanese Photographers book. He worked in advertising, etc, but also put out a five-issue photozine. I've only seen a few JPEGs of the latter, but it seems vaguely countercultural, in the sexist fashion of the time (no opportunity for female seminudity missed). And then he worked on photos of India or Buddhism or something. The fact that he's in that book means that the photo museum has prints by him. But, whether conveniently or unfairly, very few people will be interested. -- Hoary (talk) 07:14, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

I think the general problem is of course that one source is rarely sufficient to keep an article around, no matter the topic. If I'd found even a lick of any other coverage anywhere I wouldn't have put the PROD template. ♠PMC(talk) 00:36, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

[Hope you don't mind my reformatting, PMC.] It's certainly a general problem. However, there's more to be found. Until recently, Japan had a rich culture of camera magazines. I say "camera" deliberately: the primary concern was on covering photographic equipment (and getting plenty of ad revenue from their manufacturers) but there was also lots of photography, commentary on photography, etc. Two libraries in Tokyo have wonderful stocks of these magazines (which, thanks to all the advertising, are terribly bulky), and one of these has built its own detailed index -- not available via the net; only available on one terminal in the library -- to at least three of these magazines. I'd be surprised if there weren't material in those magazines on Kawahito, let alone Kobayashi. (Kobayashi is also sure to appear in the back issues of the major national newspapers. These can be searched and read in any large library; my favorite is the huge metropolitan library in Arisugawa park.) But now we get on to another general problem. Very few people are interested. The obsession a few years ago with a tiny number of Japanese photographers has at last given way to a wider interest; and Japanese photography is far better represented in photobooks and exhibitions in the US, etc, than are Russian, Lithuanian, Korean and other photography; but it still doesn't come off all that well. Thus it is that I've just noticed that Toyoko Tokiwa has died: nobody else in en:WP noticed; or if they noticed, they didn't care. -- Hoary (talk) 01:42, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
One thing's for sure about Tokiwa: when I learn of one simple fact about her (here, that she died on such-and-such a day), it opens up further contradictions. Revised ... until another contradiction comes to light. -- Hoary (talk) 03:05, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
You've got company, PMC. I now notice that Locomotive207 proposed that the Polbot-perpetrated substub Koroku Ōkubo should be deleted on the grounds that he's a "Non-notable photographer that fails WP:BASIC"; after a few days, Explicit gave it the chop. I've just taken a quick look at Ōkubo's photos, which occupy pages 16 to 39 of Modan Tōkyō rapusodi (モダン東京狂詩曲展) = Rhapsody of Modern Tokyo (NCID BN10007759). "Non-notable"? They're remarkable -- and it's not just me who says this (of course my opinions don't mean jack) but (in that catalogue's introduction) Ryūichi Kaneko too. Ōkubo was one of only six photographers given this lavish exhibition in the Tokyo Metropolitan Museum of Photography, and he's been in other exhibitions there too. If I'd noticed the prod notice I'd probably have left it. The rationale may be wrong, but there's no deletion rationale I know of for "I'm sure that nobody can or will be bothered to improve this." -- Hoary (talk) 04:52, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm happy to restore it if you're satisfied that he's notable; you're right that it's likely to remain a stub, but so are many other articles, so that shouldn't count against it. The Tokyo Museum exhibition sounds to me like it would roll him past NARTIST no problem. (I realize you're also a mop-wielder and can undelete too but in case you feel you shouldn't for some reason I'm happy to do it.)PMC(talk) 09:40, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

PMC, the recently deleted substub for Ōkubo served no purpose at all. A little article (as opposed to a stub) about Ōkubo is I think richly merited, but I find it hard to believe that anyone other than me would write it. (Of course, I'd be delighted to be proved wrong.) I don't yet have any immediate plans to write it myself; and even if I had such plans, I wouldn't need what has just been deleted. (Unfortunately there isn't, as far as I know, enough about Ōkubo to write more than a short article, unless perhaps one has a lot of time to spend in the JCII library.) No offence intended to Kawahito or Kobayashi, but I'm a lot more interested in Ōkubo's work; so a short article one day, who knows..... That aside, if you're interested in the goddesses of Georgian mythology, how's about (distinctly non-Georgian) Athena? -- Hoary (talk) 11:54, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Lovely old things in a state of elegant decay are my kryptonite, and I do feel a certain affection for Athena. I'm coming off a night shift and don't feel up to it right this second but I should have time over my current block off to have a look :) ♠PMC(talk) 13:14, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Looking forward to it! -- Hoary (talk) 22:33, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Looks like it wound up mainspaced before I got a chance to go over it. I didn't find too much more source-wise on a quick search (but I don't speak German so I'm not surprised). Cool article though, I'll keep it on the watchlist and might get back to it in the future. ♠PMC(talk) 01:36, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it was a pleasant change after all the my-client promotion, the my-late-father promotion, and of course the self-promotion that infests Wikipedia:AfC sorting/Culture/Visual arts. But it's very feebly sourced; indeed, I'm not certain that it's WP-"notable". (By contrast, I've refbombed my own latest creation inexcusably, but working on it has fried my eyeballs so I hesitate to revisit it and clear it up.) -- Hoary (talk) 02:17, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Request on 22:10:47, 14 August 2021 for assistance on AfC submission by Daniele PS

Thank you very much for corrections.
About the need to add more sources, I have found about 15 more sources but unfortunatly many of them are from online but not print press:

I have also found a long and very interesting text about Alex Van Gelder's work with Louise Bourgeois:

Aagje Swinnen (2018) Mumbling Beauty: Louise Bourgeois—portraits of the artist as a much older woman, Feminist Media Studies, 18:1, 122-137, DOI:10.1080/14680777.2018.1409995 [2]

In fact, I don't know what is the better way to use and dispatch those new sources along the article… Perhaps, the good way would be to delete some previous not essential sources and replace them by new ones more relevant?…
I would really appreciate your advice to enrich the article properly in order to make it publishable.
Thank you very much for answer.
Daniele PS (talk) 22:10, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Daniele PS, I clicked on three of the above: this one (Le Journal des arts), this one (The Independent), and doi:10.1080/14680777.2018.1409995 (Feminist Media Studies). The first does nothing to show notability; it's merely evidence that an exhibition took place. The second does help to indicate notability: it's an unfavorable review, but a writer for what in 2014 was still a "serious" British newspaper clearly thought that it merited a review, and she makes some comments that, greatly summarized, could be beneficially worked into the article. In the third, the author writes that she "[approached] the photo book as a collaborative practice that opens up conventional ideas of authorship as well as artistic autonomy", which sounds promising; but the paper quickly turns into a series of reverent citations of the more or less obscure writings of other academics -- I find this kind of thing (which is very common) very soporific, but you might find the occasional aperçu within Swinnen's example. So, what to do? What you shouldn't do is merely "add sources", adding a second or even third reference to an assertion that already comes with a reference to an adequate source. Rather, what more can you say about Van Gelder's work (or Van Gelder himself), and what are the best references for doing so? Spend a number of hours working on this, then put the draft aside for a week, then return to it and revise it, and only then submit it for the third time. -- Hoary (talk) 22:56, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi Hoary!
Thank you for your advice.
Well, I will spend time, next week, to read again all sources that I have collected and try to appreciate which ones are the best ones to prove "notability" of the artist. Then, I will delete those in the draft which are less adequate and add the new ones.
Daniele PS (talk) 07:10, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Wrong Copyright / help?

Hey Hoary,Thanks for your edit. Im new to Wikipedia and the Article about the photographer Hanna Putz is my first. Regarding the photo copyright you mentioned, this is a mistake on my side; as Ive got the permission from Mr.Richter to use this image I thought this would be sufficient to use it.However after your comment, implying Mr. Richter write the article (?) I checked and the credit would still read by D. Richter but the Copyrights, he informed me actually lay with VG Bild-Kunst. How can I now delete the old photo with the wrong copyright and/or upload it again with the right copyright?I can't find a way to do this? Iv I upload it again it tells me its a replica of the image Ive used and I can't change the copyright/Credit.Your help would be much appreciated!Thanks, Anno added at 10:44, 22 August 2021 by AnnoYMWD

Thank you for the explanation, AnnoYMWD. Go to commons:File:I hate you, 2016 by Daniel Richter.jpg and look for "Tools", and under this, click on "Nominate for deletion". I'm pretty sure that there's an option that means something like "Yes, I uploaded this, but I now realize that doing so was a mistake." If there isn't such an option, then perhaps you have to write a reason. If so, then write something like "I was new here and made a mistake. This was not my own work. The copyright holder is VG Bild-Kunst. Apologies for the confusion." If you think that you can later get explicit permission for the picture to be at Commons, I recommend that you don't mention this: if you do mention it, then your explanation becomes long and complicated. Just have it deleted, and later, work to have it restored, legally. Oh, and a small point: I believe (and hope) that you can write comments on this page, you don't need to use the "unprotected" page. -- Hoary (talk) 11:41, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Ah great thank you! Ill try this! I just wrote to you again as I thought you deleted my message, sorry for this. As I said, Im very new to Wikipedia and still seem to get a lot wrong. Hopefully this will get better. THANK YOU! Ill try and solve the copyright Issue now. Best, AnnoAnnoYMWD (talk) 11:59, 22 August 2021 (UTC) I've nominated the image now for deletion an have uploaded another one in the meantime. I hope this will resolve itself soon, so I can add Richters Collage once more. Regarding the Notification on the draft of possibly Daniel Richter writing this article, how/when will this disappear ?Thank you! Regards, AAnnoYMWD (talk) 12:39, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

AnnoYMWD, first things first. You've now uploaded a self portrait by HP (File:Hanna Putz, Self Portrait, 2020.jpg), saying which web page you got it from (; however, that web page says nothing about any Creative Commons license. Where is the permission for you to post it to Wikimedia Commons, saying that it's released under a CC license? -- Hoary (talk) 21:56, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Hey Hoary,I thought uploading a self portrait from her website would be ok to post as I thought that makes it clear a/ where it came from and b/ who owns the copyright, which is obviously Mr.Putz This seems to be wrong aswel.. Maybe you could help me by letting me know what kind of a photo Im allowed to upload or which kind of a permission In which form I would need to be able to upload either the self portrait or the Collage of Mr. Richter? AnnoYMWD (talk) 12:36, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

AnnoYMWD, if you are the copyright holder of a photograph, then you have the right either to release it under an appropriate Creative Commons (CC) license (while retaining copyright) or to donate it to the public domain (that is, to waive any claim to copyright); either way, you can upload it to Wikimedia Commons (WC). If you find a photograph whose copyright holder either has explicitly released it under an appropriate CC license (a rare occurrence) or has explicitly donated it to the public domain (an extremely rare occurrence), then you can upload it to WC, making sure to say that copyright belongs to the copyright holder (that it's not your "own work"). That's all that you can do. (You may have heard of "fair use" of other copyright material, but you can never cite "fair use" for a photograph of a living person.) This is one reason why a very high percentage of articles about living people don't have photographs. -- Hoary (talk) 22:50, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
Additionally, at commons:Commons:Deletion requests/File:I hate you, 2016 by Daniel Richter.jpg, you say that you've realized that uploading the file was a mistake, but you don't explain. You therefore expect other people to guess or investigate the nature of the mistake. Please explain there. (Or should I do so, for you?) -- Hoary (talk) 22:01, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

I did this as I understood your advice to be not to explain the whole thing as that would make things more complicated (> 'If you think that you can later get explicit permission for the picture to be at Commons, I recommend that you don't mention this: if you do mention it, then your explanation becomes long and complicated. Just have it deleted, and later, work to have it restored, legally)thats why I only wrote that it was a mistake. I can now add: the fact that Im new here and simply made a mistake, the fact that I have the permission to use the photo&collage by Mr.Richter and that I know now that the credit for the photo lies with VG Bildkunst who owns all copyright credits to any work of Mr.Richter. Would that explanation help to have it deleted? I can ofc do that. However Im still not sure I understand what I need to then upload it again to make it a 'Commons'? Thanks!Best A. AnnoYMWD (talk) 12:36, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

AnnoYMWD, you raise a lot of points, and I'm going to have to be selective. "Commons" might refer to a Creative Commons license (a copyleft license) or to Wikimedia Commons (a website). (They're the products of different organizations.) "[E]xplicit permission for the picture to be at Commons": I meant, to be at Wikimedia Commons (WC). "[U]pload it again to make it a 'Commons'": This doesn't make sense. The copyright holder, who you say is VG Bildkunst, may choose to attach a Creative Commons (CC) license to it. If it does so, and if the particular CC license meets WC's requirements, and if word of this goes directly from VG Bildkunst to WC, then the photo can be reuploaded. -- Hoary (talk) 23:37, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Ok, I think I might have got it now; I would either need a written permission (found the template) by Daniel Richter for the Collage or Hanna Putz for the Self Portrait to use the image on Wikipedia as Commons which basically means to give away all the rights to have this image used and or reproduced for everything by anyone until forever, yes?Or does that mean only on wikipedia? Meaning, this copyright permission doesnt mean that the photo can be used commercially etc. by anyone? This written permission by the original copyright holder I email to the commons email address (ev. together with the bespoke photo) and upload the photo. Correct? Thank you A. AnnoYMWD (talk) 13:02, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Now I don't understand. If copyright to Richter's work is held by VG Bildkunst, then it's VG Bildkunst, not Richter, who has to give permission. If a file is uploaded to Wikimedia Commons (WC), then anyone can use that file, for any purpose (including commercial purposes): see Commons:Licensing (or in German, Commons:Lizenzen. The copyright holder cannot change their mind later about Creative Commons (CC), but does continue to be the copyright holder and thus to have certain rights (see either of those two WC pages). The person depicted (Putz) has personality rights to her image in US law and I'd guess also in Austrian and other law. -- Hoary (talk) 23:37, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Hey Hoary, got it, thanks for the explanation! I'll email Mrs. Putz Assistant then again to see if she's willing to give out an Image of hers (she owns the copyright too, in terms of it being a self portrait and not a photo of another photographer) and to sign the permission template I found on wikipedia.I hope I got it right this time and that this will work out.Thanks again,Best AnnoYMWD (talk) 13:24, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Hey Hoary, I hope this finds you well. Hannas Page has finally been approved after quite some time, which is great - however it still has that mark on it saying 'A major contributor to this article appears to have a close connection with its subject. This 'problem' was solved by you already so how or when will this finally be removed? Or is there anything else I can do to help have it removed? Thank you! Best, AnnoYMWD (talk) 19:10, 24 October 2021 (UTC)AnnoYMWD

Congratulations on the articlification, AnnoYMWD. I've removed the COI template. However, as you'll see, I've added some other templates. (I've also done some other work on the article: altogether, this.) I did not set out to check the references, but I did look at two of them, and one of the two was an interview with her. (Or anyway it said it was. In order to read it, I'd have to register. In my experience, sites that demand registration that's free of charge spam any mail address that registers, and so I was in no mood to register.) There are also a lot of references to Putz's own website. All in all, quite a lot of the article about Putz depends on what she chooses to say about herself. This doesn't seem to have worried SL93 (who promoted the draft to an article), but it's a major flaw. Please work to develop the article so that it becomes entirely based on material written by people who are independent of Putz. -- Hoary (talk) 00:23, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
I promoted the draft because my understanding is that reviewers are to approve drafts that they believe have a chance of surviving AfD. My accept was based on her work being a part of a permanent collection in a museum which not many photographers can claim. I also took into account that it would be hard for many English speakers to find non-English sources. SL93 (talk) 12:22, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
SL93, we read "Article submissions that are likely to survive an AfD nomination should be accepted and published to mainspace"; and to me, "are likely to survive" sounds quite a lot more demanding than "have a chance of surviving", though I probably shouldn't read too much into your (hurried?) choice of words. Maybe I'm too strict: I tend to look for submissions that are unlikely to risk an AfD nomination. That's because, increasingly, I'm tending to think that a draft or article that isn't worth doing well isn't worth doing at all; or to put it another way (following the much-missed Geogre), that nothing is often better than something. I do seem to decline an awful lot, but that's because I think they should and can be improved; I reject very few (here's a recent example). -- Hoary (talk) 22:53, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
That criteria is what I meant. We will have to disagree, but I'm basing it on the permanent exhibition and sources that have reception of her and her work such as [3], [4], [5], and [6]. The references are not only about Hanna Putz, but that has never been a requirement for notability - "If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability; trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources is not usually sufficient to establish notability." I do have more declines than accepts also. As for the part of "a draft or article that isn't worth doing well isn't worth doing at all", AFC mostly has new editors who may need a guiding hand to know the quality that Wikipedia accepts. SL93 (talk) 23:58, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
Yes, SL93, I don't doubt that she merits an article. I think and hope I've helped AnnoYMWD to some degree, though I wouldn't be surprised if this help (if it even was help) was annoying at times. I spend perhaps too much time at Wikipedia:AfC sorting/Culture/Visual arts, and I have to say that a lot of what's listed there is more or less promotional (though usually discreetly rather than offensively so); it probably makes me jaded at times. Meanwhile, it's been over two months since I last created an article; I was fairly happy with it when I first pressed "Publish changes" but quickly realized that it had serious problems. -- Hoary (talk) 00:22, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
That makes sense. It's normally hard for me to stay at AFC for a long time because I get annoyed at notable topics with dreadful articles, declines that are not based on anything in the reviewing criteria, and such. For some reason, I have had editors who I have never interacted with before trying to ask me to review their articles. It happens on days when I decide to be very active with AFC and I ignore those requests for help. SL93 (talk) 00:30, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
Then, SL93, there's the matter of the dreadfulness of long-standing articles. Why should I suggest merging the worthwhile minority of the content of Draft:Transbay Columns with this article when the latter doesn't obviously merit survival? (I've tinkered with it since, but it's still feeble.) One could just send it off to AfD, but really there's no "just" about it: AfDs consume a lot of time. -- Hoary (talk) 05:55, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Hey you two :) Firstly thanks to both of you for your help. As this was my first article, Ive obviously made some mistakes in the beginning..I have to say though that it isnt entirely true that 'there are a lot of references to her own website'. There are references to her website but thats because she has a PRESS section on her website that made it easy for me to have some of the press on her all combined together and not have to go each and every article individually. It initially was also not true that most references are from interviews with her - I did f.e. put in 3 quotes from respected curators (f.e. Susan Bright) talking about Putzs work from various texts which were all deleted (?). However, I generally understand some concerns here. The reason I wrote the article on Putz is that I think that there should be more wikipedia articles written on younger women in the artworld, also when their in the beginning of their career (34 is still young for an artist in Putzs field) in order for them to get the visibility they deserve in an, until very recently, mainly male dominated art world. So Im happy this worked out now with your help. So again, thanks for checking on the article and for your approval. I'll try and improve some more when I can. Best, AnnoYMWD (talk) 10:12, 31 October 2021 (UTC)A

Photo Demian Conrad draft

Dear Hoary, I confirm you that I personally uploaded the photo [7] to Wikidata. When I started writing the draft of Draft:Demian_Conrad, not finding any public domain photos of the designer, I decided to contact him at an email address that I found on his personal website, to ask if he would be willing to provide a photo that could be uploaded to Wikidata and used in the public domain. He sent me the photo in question, giving me permission to upload it under a CC licence. As already mentioned in this page, I work in the graphic design field but I don't have any relation with the designer in question. Best wishes, --EnḫeduannaS (talk) 12:37, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Considering your wikipedia experience, I would like to ask you for some advice, since I don't know who took the photo in question that was sent to me, how should I change the default "own work" text. Would "unknown author" be ok? Thanks again EnḫeduannaS (talk) 12:46, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

EnḫeduannaS, there are various problems here. First, what you described as your "own work" isn't your own work; and therefore, however innocent your intentions were, you provided false information. Secondly, the person who owns the copyright of a photograph is usually the person who took the photograph, not the person who's photographed. (If you pay a commercial photographer to photograph yourself, your wedding, your baby, etc, the photographer normally retains the copyright.) There are indeed exceptions. Perhaps Conrad does own the copyright. But the copyright holder (whether Conrad, the photographer, or somebody else) has to satisfy Wikimedia Commons that they are indeed the copyright holder. Please see Commons:Volunteer Response Team, and particular the section "If you are NOT the copyright holder". The process prescribed there starts: "Before you upload the file to Commons, please identify and contact the copyright holder and ask them to release the work under a free license." But of course you've already uploaded it. What should you do? I don't know; you'd better ask at the "copyright" area of Commons' "village pump". -- Hoary (talk) 22:19, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
Dear Hoary, thank you for your answer and suggestions.
It's my first page draft and upload to Wikimedia, I really apologise for my newbie mistake. I will immediately remove the "own work" row (to avoid spreading false news on Wikimedia :) ) and in the meantime I will contact the "copyright" area of Commons' "village pump" to ask for their advice, as suggested. With respect to your second point: "the person who owns the copyright of a photograph is usually the person who took the photograph, not the person who's photographed", I share your view. When I wrote to Conrad I explicitly asked for a photo that could be uploaded as CC on Wikimedia, so he should own the copyright for that photo.
Thanks again! EnḫeduannaS (talk) 07:05, 25 August 2021 (UTC)


How did you know that Brothernotuser1 was a sock of a globally locked user, JustAUser201468? DarkMatterMan4500 (talk) (contribs) 12:13, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

I inferred it from this. Did I make a mistake? If so, please ask some other admin to fix it. (It's my bed time.) -- Hoary (talk) 12:23, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Draft:Luis Fitch

Regarding Draft:Luis Fitch and other drafts, User:Anitnepres has stated here [8] that “articles were written by neutral third parties, and I have been paid to upload them to Wikipedia.” an unusual situation that I haven’t come across before. Theroadislong (talk) 19:18, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Me neither. Thank you for the heads-up, Theroadislong. I've responded there, mostly on the matter of references; I've also added a new comment to that one draft. -- Hoary (talk) 22:19, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Draft:Sd.Kfz. 251 "Calliope"

Hello, Hoary,

Just FYI, when you restore an expired draft, a CSD G13, you (or the page creator) has to make an edit to the page or it immediately pops back up on a list of pages that are eligible for speedy deletion. A new edit resets the clock. There is a nifty script, RFUD-helper, that takes care of the edit for you after you restore an expired draft. Thank you. Liz Read! Talk! 00:34, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Uh, sorry Liz. I knew I was sleepy when I made that edit; I didn't know how sleepy I was. -- Hoary (talk) 02:29, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

DYK for Stephan Vanfleteren

On 23 September 2021, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Stephan Vanfleteren, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that the photographer Stephan Vanfleteren crossed the US while modelling as Presley and photographing a friend modelling as Elvis? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Stephan Vanfleteren. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Stephan Vanfleteren), and if they received a combined total of at least 416.7 views per hour (i.e., 5,000 views in 12 hours or 10,000 in 24), the hook may be added to the statistics page. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

 — Amakuru (talk) 00:03, 23 September 2021 (UTC)


Hi, sorry to bother you but if poss. could you take a look at this item and in particular this edit summary. I feel this is rather unnecessary and really suggests to me that this editor is maybe not going to be of a 'collaborative' spirit. Pretty much a personal attack, presumably 'just because' I declined their not-yet-ready draft. Cheers. Eagleash (talk) 02:28, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, Eagleash, I've been out. Yes, you aroused my curiosity. Hmm ... somehow I get the impression that the writer was unhappy. If I had been honored with such an edit summary, it would have gone straight onto my user page. But perhaps my approach is unusual. -- Hoary (talk) 12:19, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
Yes not best pleased I would say! And agreed, that would be an unusual approach. Still, think it's under control now... Cheers. Eagleash (talk) 12:46, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
Looking at this thing again, Eagleash, I'm surprised that you spent time on it. I've rejected it. -- Hoary (talk) 22:49, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
Yes, it's not very good but I was not of the opinion that it was utterly without hope as it were. But now a little time has passed...CCS is pretty low and perhaps you are right to reject it; not something I would do 'straight-off' myself, as a rule, so well... there we are, stand-by for more verbal abuse perhaps? 23:09, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
Sorry you got dragged into this. Better than Kate Middleton's extended family.... er no! I have just left another reply at the editor's TP. I pinged you there as they had attempted to do so but WP:CIR. Seems there's a possible COI or paid issue too. Left messages. Eagleash (talk) 00:49, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
I think that your "possible" is an understatement. That matter aside, please, Eagleash, let us not besmirch the august Middleton (or Lupton) family by such comparisons. And anyway, the mild (if chronic) problem with that genealogical enterprise is not the most noble subject matter (how could it be?) or its untiring historian, but the historian's mysterious "device", which is so remarkably different from anybody else's. -- Hoary (talk) 01:02, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
Aha, it's about 9AM here and I am more or less 'unavailable' for the next few hours. If he's fallen foul of ANI or something by the time I return I may not find it altogether a shock. Eagleash (talk) 08:07, 27 September 2021 (UTC)


Hello. Thanks for helping me yesterday. So I decided to write to you. Do you know why DeltaQuadBot stopped deleting old versions of files? I download them a lot and he always hide old versions. Now he does not do this, although he does the edits. Is this intentional or a glitch? Or should I write to the owner of the bot? — Vladlen Manilov / 05:01, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, Vladlen Manilov, I'm completely unfamiliar with DeltaQuadBot. I do notice that it's described as something that "RevDels non-free orphaned revisions"; are you sure that the old versions you have in mind are both (i) non-free and (ii) orphaned? ("Non-free"": usable only with a credible claim of "fair use"; not transferrable to Commons. The majority of old versions are orphaned, but the majority of files are not non-free.) If yes, they are both non-free and orphaned, then I suggest that you write a message at User talk:AmandaNP. -- Hoary (talk) 08:32, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
Yes, it is non-free and orphaned. Okay, I'll write to AmandaNP. — Vladlen Manilov / 08:40, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

The Barnstar of Good Humor
Very Good Md Nahid Islam Sumon (talk) 14:48, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

A goat for you!

Thanks for accepting and tidying my article creation!

Thought Aquarium (talk) 15:31, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Oh, thank you, Thought Aquarium. Goats are much appreciated. They keep the driveway free of weeds (and of flowers, accidentally dropped gloves, and anything else). -- Hoary (talk) 23:05, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Crowd of Women

Thanks so much for reviewing my page, Crowd of Women. I was just wondering if the "long passages" you were referring to were the reviews I typed out? Should I shorten them? What do you suggest?

Always, thank you for your time.

Draft:Crowd of Women Weelarkobar (talk) 18:49, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes, Weelarkobar, the reviews. One might expect long quoted passages to be commoner in long articles than in shorter ones. However, even in good ("featured") long articles about (good or bad) art -- such as The Disasters of War, The Destroying Angel..., The Colossus of Rhodes, An Experiment on a Bird in the Air Pump, and Warlugulong -- we don't find them. Please summarize what within these long passages really seems worthwhile. Do so in your own words. Only retain the original wording where it can't be distilled or bettered; and if you do retain it, of course put it in quotation marks. -- Hoary (talk) 08:12, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Response/User:YKK0228 Nanjing Cao Xueqin Memorial Museum

Hi,Hoary 1.Thank you for your guidance, its translated from Chinese.sorry,It's my fault.I'll correct it. 2.This draft is done in cooperation with the hiring company, and what you want to ask ? --YKK0228 (talk) 08:21, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for your candour, YKK0228. For the time being, the draft will have to carry a warning template. -- Hoary (talk) 08:03, 29 October 2021 (UTC) corrected Hoary (talk) 08:25, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
Correction: No it won't, YKK0228. You've put one on the talk page; this is all that's needed. -- Hoary (talk) 08:25, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Hoary You means pay template or translate template ?--YKK0228 (talk) 08:35, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Both a paid-contributor template and a translation template are needed, YKK0228. When I last looked at the talk page, you'd added both, so all's well. -- Hoary (talk) 09:24, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Hoary Thank you for your guidance, and waiting to move to new entry.--YKK0228 (talk) 09:30, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Draft:Statuette of the lady Tiye

Hello, Hoary,

Thank you for your review of this draft. I look at hundreds of expiring G13 drafts every day, 99% of them are in pretty poor or even abysmal shape and I thought this one was better than most so I submitted it for AFC review. I appreciate you looking it over and giving it an evaluation. Liz Read! Talk! 04:19, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the note, Liz. I've brought the matter up at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ancient Egypt; I hope persuasively. -- Hoary (talk) 07:37, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Happy First Edit Day!

Happy First Edit Day, Hoary, from the Wikipedia Birthday Committee! Have a great day! Bobherry Talk Edits 17:10, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

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Draft:Professor Powsey

Hi Hoary,I hope I'm responding to your note in the right spot. Yes, the draft title should be as you changed it. I couldn't figure it out! Thanks! Afewthings Afewthings (talk) 06:51, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Er, well, Afewthings, since you mention it: For any talk page (a draft's talk page, a user's talk page, etc), a new matter conventionally gets its own header (I've added one to this), and this new "thread" goes at the foot of the talk page. Yes, "Professor Powsey" seems better than "Bert Powsey", but unsurprisingly he was also referred to as "Professor Bert Powsey", and very likely -- I confess I've looked at hardly any among the sources, and thus don't know -- other names besides. These won't much matter, thanks to the magic of "redirects". (To see a redirect in action, click on Joseph Biden; to see how that works, click on this.) And don't worry: if redirects seem baffling, once your draft has become an article, somebody -- Softlavender, I, or somebody else -- can easily make the redirects that would be beneficial for Powsey.
I hope you're enjoying the sources that Softlavender is unearthing. If you ignored them all and simply submitted the draft now, I'm pretty certain that it would be accepted. But please take your time, and here's why. A very large number of articles are created every day, and few receive much attention. (It could be said that few merit much attention.) This draft is unusually interesting and the article into which it will pupate will merit attention. If you look at Wikipedia's top page, you'll see a list of "Did you know?" ("DYK") items. Some weeks from now, the article on Powsey should be among them. Now, getting this to happen requires compliance with a dismayingly complex-looking set of rules. But these turn out to be a lot less complex than they look. I have some experience in this matter and can help you. Here's all that you have to remember at this stage. The article mustn't have any copyright or other serious issues (and of course your draft currently does not); every cited source must verify what it's presented as saying (you should be very careful with this one); there must be at least one thing within the article that's surprising and can be expressed in a few words (well, for one, that he was doing stunt dives till the age of 75); and as an article it must be no more than seven days old. (Its age as a draft doesn't matter.) Safer to think of the seven days as five. Getting this draft into an article that qualifies for DYK shouldn't be hard. If you succeed, you get bragging rights; but more importantly very many more people will see the article, and if you're lucky then among them will be somebody who's knowledgable and who will be able to cite sources that are new to you and thereby to augment the article in a worthwhile way. -- Hoary (talk) 09:48, 2 December 2021 (UTC)