Hello. Please feel free to discuss with me in my discussion-board. Thank you very much. :-) -- IAAL 19:30, 13 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Official discussion: Talk:Tron_(hacker)

You have been blocked from editing Wikipedia for making legal threats. If you wish to appeal, please post on this talk page.-gadfium 05:51, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Gadfium. Thank you very much. I understand it, if you are sceptic about this legal case. It is not a "fake", here are the sources: [1]

I've posted that you've been blocked at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Legal_threats. If you wish comments copied there, post them here and I'll move them across. Your comment above is already on Talk:Main Page.-gadfium 06:05, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Are you involved in this lawsuit, or are you just informing us as an uninvolved party? If the latter, I'll unblock you so you can discuss this at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Legal_threats.-gadfium 06:19, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Gadfium. Thank you very much. I was just seeing it. I am just now not allowed to post onto your admin-site. Of course, you are allowed to copy the complete report with its source to your admin-site. I want also to inform you, that this case is already very hot discussed onto the german wikipedia with many editwars, cp. [2]. The same documents were also be faxed by me to Mister Jimmy Wales in St. Petersbourgh, FL. If there exist also a legal-department onto the english wikipedia or for your admins, please feel free to copy the report and the sources to them. We should really avoid a big damage to wikipedia, this is also the reason why I simple inform you. Thank you very much for your cooperation. -- IAAL 06:19, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Gadfium. Yes, it would be nice by you to unlock me. Of course, I am serious, no panic. :-) Thank you very much. -- IAAL 06:22, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I was wondering, kindly, if you can explain to use breifly at what is going on, please. Zach ^{(Smack Back) Fair use policy} 06:23, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Zscout370. It is nice also to know you. (Of course, Gadfium, too.) Well, the case is simple to explain. There are german, english, french articles about the person "Tron" from Berlin, who died. After this death, his realname (Boris Familyname, I am not allowed to post here his complete familyname), his realname especially his familyname was published at WIKIPEDIA.ORG. After many tryings by the parents, the parents went then to the Court and the Court made the restraining order against Wikimedia Foundation, Jimmy Wales, St. Petersbourgh, FL (USA). This restraining order says, that it is forbidden to publish the complete familyname of Boris F. anywhere at WIKIPEDIA.ORG. In the normal case, such a decision would not be such a big problem. The most biggest problem is, that the english wikipeda with Boris' complete familyname is also accessable to Germany via the Internet. Don't beat me, it was not my decision. It was the decision by the Judge of Berlin. -- IAAL 06:35, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The question I have after reading it is was the entry of him created after he died? What did this person do in their lifetime or death to have entries written about him? At English Wikipedia, we have a set of criteria of what merits inclusion into Wikipedia or not. One of the things we have is called "Wikipedia is not a memorial." While we feel sad about the person dying, but we need to have something more notable of his life than just knowing some friends who use Wikipedia. So, if you can legally tell us when the entries were created and what was in them, I can probably tell you if it would probably have either been deleted or survived deletion. Thanks again. Zach ^{(Smack Back) Fair use policy} 06:43, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Zach. Please have a look to the article here at wikipedia, cp. [[3]] Yes, his complete familyname was published at wikipedia _after_ his death. -- IAAL 06:55, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It seems rather strange that you would make an account with the name IAAL, which would appear to be an abbreviation for "I Am A Lawyer", you would start that account with comments about how you might help Wikipedia in general, and then you show that you are involved in this. While the appropriate course of action is almost certainly delivery of the legal documents by fax or courier to the appropriate person or people, if you wanted to discuss this on site I would have thought you'd use your real name.-gadfium 06:41, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Gadfium. No, I am not insolved in this case. It is a case between the parents of Boris F. and Wikimedia Foundation, Jimmy Wales. My part here is only to inform you, because I like wikipedia. -- IAAL 06:52, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

After discussion, ZScout has unblocked you. Please confine your discussion of the matter here and on the administrator's noticeboard.

For the first, if you please look to the [[4]] , you will see his complete familyname. It seems also so, that there exist also a redirect-link with his complete familyname. This must be removed, so his complete familyname is not accessable to Germany especially to the Municipal Court of Berlin (Germany). The Judge do absolutely not want to see the _complete_ familyname _anywhere_ at WIKIPEDIA.ORG. I know, it is technically not so very easy to fix this.

I personally would suggest to lock this article about Boris F. especially his familyname, simple to avoid a disaster for wikipedia. Another nice idea would be to forward his familyname into a list of "bad words" to filter out this familyname within this software of wikipedia. This would then be a global solution and the Judge of Berlin will not be angry because of the danger to post a fine to Wikipedia. I know, it might be, that some wikipedians will not like this decision by the Court, but the current english version is also aviable in Germany and also to the german Judge in Berlin.

If you have any other ideas (I think, you are the better one experts at wikipedia than me), please let me know it here. Thank you very much. -- IAAL 06:49, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What I can tell you is that I created a new article at Tron (hacker) and all references to his name are gone. What I can also tell you that it is known, to me, that his name exists in the Dutch (NL) and Polish (PL) Wikipedias, and I have no control at what happens there. The page where the persons name was mentioned was blanked, deleted, and protected. Now, I still need to do some cleanup. Zach ^{(Smack Back) Fair use policy} 07:01, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Zach. This was an excellent job by you. Nickname is ok, short form Boris F. is also ok - and the complete familyname is locked. Perfect! :-) The other things in the other languages, that's still awful, because all the articles with his complete familyname (note: The Judge said "no familyname anywhere at WIKIPEDIA.ORG) are still accessable to Germany especially to the German Court. Is there a technical solution, to make an entry of "global bad words" into the Wikipedia-software, so, the complete familyname will not appear anywhere in any languages? If not, uh.... aren't there about 170 different languages at wikipedia, and so all articles (existing, non-existing) must be locked? :-( -- IAAL 07:17, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am just seeing, that the first users removed the "Boris F." and they write now again the complete familyname. Please no editwars at Tron, Boris_F. and Boris F(amilyname). After removing his familyname and the redirect-links, I ask you to lock this article. This is exact this, what the Court of Germany have ordered. Thank you very much. -- IAAL 07:00, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Zach and Scm83x. You are very correct, this strategy by the german attorney-at-law is very intelligent, because in one side there exist the internationality of wikipedia and in the other side there exist also the internationality of the Internet. This is why you have all national laws of each nation within one pot. A chance to lump together all the laws and to provocate international conflicts especially to abuse it. In the other side, there has never been a reason to publish an article about Boris F., because he has never been a person of the contemporary history. Goethe, Einstein, Schiller, Mozart, no problem, but Boris F.? It is the free editing, that everybody is allowed to create an new article and now the Wikimedia Foundation and Jimmy have a problem. Onto my User:IAAL I collected the information of law-steps. HTH! :-) -- IAAL 07:50, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. It might be, that some wikipedians will not like this decision by the Court (me, too), but the current english version is also accessible in Germany. There would be 1000 arguments with an endless discussion especially emotional arguments ("censorship", etc.). We are American. We are cool. We calm down by a very easy way because of this provocation from the German Court. Fact is, that there is just now - temporary(!), note: it is only temporary - the restraining order with the tenor of the German Judge "no complete familyname of Boris F. anywhere at WIKIPEDIA.ORG, or a fine of 250,000,- Euro or up to 6 months jail". And the american admins made a perfect job to realize this as soon as possible as well as possible especially to avoid big damages for Wikipedia and Jimbo. Removing the familyname does not make anybody poor but ignoring. So the final things things must be regulated by the Wikimedia Foundation themselves and Jimmy Wales himself, who are responsible for this case. I am sure, they have phantastic attorney-at-laws, who will help them. I am also sure, they will bring the crazy case to the right one and correct end. It is just now unknown, if Wikimedia Foundation will file an appeal to the Municipal Court of Berlin in Germany or whatever. But after it, everybody here will know what's going on with the familyname of Boris F.. This is only my voluntary advice to the admins. If you will do another thing especially without asking Jimbo, then you will clearly have to stand for the consequences, f.e. regress, damagefees of regress, etc.. I hope, I could show you a little bit my goodwill to you. Thank you very much. -- IAAL 09:08, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You are, of course, aware of the fact that you misrepresent the legal facts here? There is no restraining order in effect at the moment which effects WikiMedia or en.wikipedia.org in any way - contrary to your efforts to make nice english admins believe otherwise. Gwyndon 03:51, 25 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• The Community trade mark gives its proprietor a uniform right applicable in all Member States of the European Union on the strength of a single procedure which simplifies trade mark policies at European level.
• It fulfils the three essential functions of a trade mark at European level: it identifies the origin of goods and services, guarantees consistent quality through evidence of the company's commitment vis-à-vis the consumer, and is a form of communication, a basis for publicity and advertising.
• The Community trade mark may be used as a manufacturer's mark, a mark for goods of a trading company, or service mark. It may also take the form of a collective trade mark: properly applied, the regulation governing the use of the collective trade mark guarantees the origin, the nature and the quality of goods and services by making them distinguishable, which is beneficial to members of the association or body owning the trade mark.
• The Community trade mark covers a market of more than 350 million consumers who enjoy some of the highest living standards in the world. It is the ideal instrument to meet the challenges of this market.
• The Community trade mark is obtained by registration in the Register kept by the Harmonization Office. When registered, transferred or allowed to lapse, the effect of such action is Community-wide.
• It is valid for a period of 10 years and may be renewed indefinitely.
• The rules of law applicable to it are similar to those applied to national trade marks by the Member States. Companies will therefore find themselves in a familiar environment, just on a larger scale.

You know one thing I actually followed some of the links you supplied and now I am not sure whether you're the guy behind this suing a Wikipedia Foundation Inc with a distinctly US street address in St. Petersburg, Russian Federation... --84.160.220.48

• Hello. No, I am not insolved in this case. It is a case between the parents of Boris F. and Wikimedia Foundation, Jimmy Wales. My part here is only to inform wikipedians. --IAAL 05:14, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

but one thing is for sure...: such ineptitude had me howling with laughter. Hah! Sue me too if you dare: I'm from Amsterdam in Saudi-Arabia. --84.160.220.48

• Hello, of course you are correct and it might be amusing. I know cities and municipalities in Germany which are called Afrika, Amerika in Saxony. :-) --IAAL 05:17, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Serious though, the court order is moot because there is no way the court can either collect the EUR 1,000 fine or throw poor Jimbo into the slammer for it. (No, Jimmy Wales will not be put on a plane and flown to Berlin just because of this). --84.160.220.48

• Hello. This is a very good question. Firstly, I ask you to read more about injunctions. Secondly, the Municipal Court of Berlin talks about a fine up to 250,000,- Euro or/and imprisonment up to 6 months. Thirdly, if you would please check out the travel schedule[5], Jimmy Wales will visit Germany on 15-16 June 2006. --IAAL 05:28, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Btw... remember there's the Rechtsberatungsgesetz (Law on Legal Consultation) and you could already be in some really serious trouble. --84.160.220.48

• Hello. The law you talk about is the German Law On Legal Advice of 13. December 1935 for pure businesslike advice, which was created by the Nazi Germany and is still going strong. It had originally forbidden Jewish Persons to advertise in a businesslike way whereas the "jewish" context was later removed after the SWW. Germany is the only country in the world where it is forbidden to give free legal advice. I recommend you to enjoy the documents[6] of Walter Keim. --IAAL 05:31, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have blocked you for carrying over the Tron legal dispute from de. to this version. Edits such as [7] can only inflame - especially the part naming german admins and claiming they are responsible for damages. If you have any further comments on this matter, I would suggest contacting Wikimedia so that the legal team can assess them. -- sannse (talk) 17:49, 19 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Sannse. Thank you very much for your info. I already explained in the thread before, that I am not involved in this case. I only report about this crazy case. Because of some unwilled german admins, today happened a crazy thing in this Tron_(Hacker)-case:

• • "Amtsgericht schließt wikipedia.de", see
    • http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/politik/0,1518,396056,00.html , translated for you:
  • "Municipal Court close wikipedia.de", see
    • http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/politik/0,1518,396056,00.html

Some more links about "wikipedia.de closed" because of this Tron_(Hacker):

• TV-Sender "tagesschau":

http://www.tagesschau.de/aktuell/meldungen/0,1185,OID5155270_TYP6_THE_NAV_REF1_BAB,00.html

• HEISE: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/68551
• GOLEM: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/68519
• GIGA: http://www.giga.de/index.php?storyid=129890
• RINGFANDUNG: http://www.ringfahndung.de/archives/blog_related/wikipediade_web20_pausenknopf_eintweilige_verfuegung.html
• ....

Check it out by yourself: http://www.wikipedia.de/ does not work anymore as it was before. That's crazy.

Alike you see, there is a huge "storm" in all the press. SPIEGEL, GIGA, HEISE, GOLEM, every minute more and more press-articles. Also many TV-Station are informed and began to report. It is a current event. Many of them also set a link to this article of Tron, because the complete familyname is there still online although there are already two restraining orders. Also the article Tron_(Hacker) says it very clear, cite: "This article documents a current event. Information may change rapidly as the event progresses". See also the big discussion at http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diskussion:Tron_%28Hacker%29 with all the links to the press.

I only report about it and update the site.

"they are responsible for damages" - no, this is not correct. I wrote: "...Because of ignoring the 1st restraining order,...are potentially responsible for damages...". I also posted the clear source with a link to http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diskussion:Tron_%28Hacker%29#L.C3.B6sung_2:_Der_Name_soll_bis_sich_Weiteres_ergibt.2C_im_Artikel_stehen_bleiben and there are these users listed. They listed them themselves.

If you get a restraining order, nobody can ignore this. But some users abuse the site of wikipedia, f.e. this However some users abuse the site of wikipedia, there start again the Mass-Vandalismus and REVERTWAR: User:Pedewikia is not allowed to manipulate the event.

BTW: there are already 2 admins ("Zach", "gun") with whom I have contact and we take care for this article.

I hope, you are now well informed.

Thank you very much. --IAAL 18:39, 19 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The user User:Pedewikia is a total new user, registered some minutes ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Pedewikia&action=history --IAAL 18:54, 19 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please get some clue. -- Pedewikia 23:56, 20 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why can't I email Jimbo because of this missunderstanding within the admins? --IAAL 00:06, 20 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ola! Desejo tudo de bom a você também Espero que tenha um ano marvilhoso E que realize todos seus objetivos, dentre muitos vir ao Brasil :-) Abraços Valéria 201.9.123.23 09:11, 20 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oi Valeria! Eu tem 5 minutos pra estar aqui. *g* Tchau. --IAAL 04:59, 5 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ola!!! Slashdot: "German Wikipedia Threatened w/ Injunction" http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/01/19/2056252 hahaha...... Abraços Valéria 201.9.123.23 09:18, 20 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oi Valeria! Muito obrigado! :-) Mas saibam que lembrei de todos, pros que foram espero que tenham gostado,... ;-) Tchau. --IAAL 04:56, 5 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have seen a couple of anonymous users change your user page to insert the surname you don't wish to see here. After reverting three times, I asked another admin to follow up and protect your user page against editing by anonymous and very new accounts. This should not affect you in any way, but if you wish your user page to be restored to be able to be edited by anyone once you are unblocked, just put a message on my talk page (or that of any active admin) and the page will be unprotected. My actions here are not an endorsement of your position.-gadfium 07:51, 21 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I quote from your user page, above mentioned paragraph:

“Because of ignoring the 1st restraining order, following german administrators of Wikipedia are potentially responsible for damages: […] de:Holger_Thölking […]”

Even though I really had a good laugh, I ask you to henceforth verify such assertions before you express them. Neither am I or will I ever be an administrator, nor did I have a significant part in either the Tron article or the corresponding tattle on its discussion page. Compare the list of names you mentioned with the list of German administrators, the history of the German Tron article and the German Tron discussion history, afterwards remove my own name as well as various others that do not belong there (— as far as I survey, that’s most of them). Or simply rephrase the above mentioned paragraph in a manner that it explains to what extent the mentioned users are “potentially responsible for damages”. Thanks. — Holger Thölking / 89.54.3.213 19:06, 31 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Holger. Thank you very much for your question. Firstly, it is well known, that german admin of wikipedia Alexander Klimke "Berlin-Jurist" made on 2nd February 2006 at 9:40am (CET) vandalismus onto this site of Tron, cp. [8]. The complete content of all the last years until to this 2nd February 2006 disappeared. But I have good news for you. There exist an archive of all these mass-deleted files and I had a look into the archive for you. Here is a screenshoot, which shows your name "Holger Thölking" on the 8th place. And you voted there for a "yes, ignore the 1st order to publish the familyname of Tron". Secondly, you should know, that I wrote "potentially responsible". If you will really be responsible for any damages, this should be judged by the Wikimedia Foundation Inc, Jimmy Wales or the Court.

Why do you look so? It is the same, if you will want to marry in a church: First you say "yes" to your girl, become married and then you run out of this church to this discussion-board, because you meant "no" with your "yes". Or you begin to ask me, where the heck you said "yes" and I must show you photos and screenshoots to proove you the truth. I am sorry, but such a strategy won't work in any way. I wish you good luck with your "yes". :-) --IAAL 04:49, 5 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

00:40, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

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