Your e-mail[edit]

Please don't e-mail me asking for page protection. Use WP:RFPP.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:16, 15 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

OK, the only reason I did this is due to ongoing disruption and I cannot go round in circles looking at this page.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 16:20, 15 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"Streisand effect" and "allegedly"[edit]

My use of "allegedly" was clumsy. She lost the law suit, yes. But the Wikipedia page says "[Streisand] attempted to suppress the California Coastal Records Project's photograph". However in the autobiography, she claims that it was an individual she was suing, not the official site. This makes sense, as why would the official California State site put her name on the photo, which she claims was her only objection? Perhaps the individual sourced the photos from that official site and reposted them? The WP page implies she attempted to suppress an official record, whereas she claims she took action against an individual who posted (what was perhaps that same official) photo appending her name. My "alleged" was meant to cover that bit of "grey" only. Certainly the answer to this is not found by virtue solely of the legal result against her, as you suggest. My alleged really meant "rumours say she sued an official website" (with the rumours making it to an actual Wikipedia article!). It was meant as a neutral "alleged", since I couldn't find a definitive answer yet. Can you think of a better way to get that subtlety into the lede, since Streisand claims she sued an individual not a State body, and the generality of the legal finding in and of itslef doesn't go to this particular point? I agreed "allegedly" is not the right word: too legal. Walton22 (talk) 09:14, 21 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It comes down to Streisand's own view of the matter, which is a WP:PRIMARY source. It's ok to point out that she had a different view, but the view of the court was that the action that she took against Adelman and Pictopia was wrong.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 09:19, 21 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yes. I was only referring to accuracy about WHO she was suing, not the finding itself. The article made an erroneous implication I think. I have now edited the lede to fix, I believe. Accept your revert of my "allegedly". Walton22 (talk) 09:24, 21 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Regardless of the rights and wrongs of Streisand's legal action against Adelman (who took the photo and posted it on his own website layer42.net) the action led to massive publicity that would never have happened if Streisand had done nothing about it. The photo was very obscure until the legal action occurred, as it contained nothing that would have easily proved that it was her house. This is made clear in the court ruling.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 09:54, 21 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yes. The story that gave rise to the expresison "the Streisand effect" is clearly not a fiction. Her rebuttal just challenges some assumptions around the story, but doesn't annul the main thrust. As far as "The photo was very obscure until the legal action occurred, as it contained nothing that would have easily proved that it was her house" she does claim in her book that her objection was that the photo was captioned with her name, and my edit reports that. Walton22 (talk) 11:09, 21 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
But, if as you say, Adelman took the photo, then the reference in the lede of the WP article to "California Coastal Records Project's photograph" surely needs to be edited away? Walton22 (talk) 11:12, 21 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm worried about the wording at California Coastal Records Project, as it gives the impression that Streisand sued the project rather than Adelman. It is clear that Adelman took the photo for the project and it was intended to be used by them; it wasn't a personal project of his.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 11:45, 21 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I have edited the lede of Streisand effect to make it clear Streisand sued Adelman, not the project. Maybe you can edit similarly at California Coastal Records Project. Walton22 (talk) 11:50, 21 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I have been reading through the court ruling. Adelman is described as the creator of the California Coastal Records Project; the project was not directly linked to the government in California as is sometimes wrongly stated. It also says "Nothing on the California Coastal Records Project website lists the address of the plaintiff's residence or the longitude and latitude of specific buildings on her property... Image 3850 carries a label or "tag", but only as it is displayed on the California Coastal Records Project website: "Streisand Estate, Malibu". Once a person has gained access to the California Coastal Records Project site, it is possible to search by that tag to reach a screen which displays image 3850. A general Internet search for the tag, using a search engine such as Google or Yahoo, will not direct a searcher to the image posted on the defendants' site." There are various conclusions from this:
I tried to edit the text down to the key point that Barbra Streisand makes in the book, which is that she says that she wanted the lawyer to remove the name tag from the website, not the photo itself. There is quite a lot of quotation from Streisand in her own words, because she says in her book that Wikipedia doesn't give the facts. This is because prior to the book (and yesterday for me) it was a big surprise to learn that she had looked at the Wikipedia article and disagreed with what it said. Wikipedia wants all biographies to be accurate, but sometimes WP:AUTO problems can occur. The only source that we have for Streisand's side of the story is her account in the book. At the time of the court case, it looked as though she wanted to remove the photo from the website rather than just the name tag. Personally I believe that this would have been reasonable. However, something seems to have been lost in translation during the legal action, and she says that she now regards it as a mistake that the court case came to be seen as being about the photo rather than the accompanying name tag.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 19:09, 22 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
All understood, and thank you Walton22 (talk) 19:22, 22 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
On reflection, I wonder about omitting her reference to security concerns and past intruders which I included. Perhaps you would consider adding something? I think it's a telling part of the 'rebuttal'. Walton22 (talk) 20:03, 22 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You're right and this an interesting point. Streisand says in the book "Suddenly there was a photo on the internet with my house, my name, and the exact coordinates where I lived. That put the safety of my family and myself at risk. We had already experienced several incidents with intruders over the years. So I hope you can understand my concern." Also, the complaint filed by her lawyers in May 2003 makes clear that the giving latitude and longitude of the photos was one of the reasons for the legal action. While the Wikipedia article should be a bit cautious about this, a determined person will be able to find the coordinates.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 19:17, 23 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I think my edit just now is in the interest of caution. Walton22 (talk) 19:33, 23 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Content Approval Review[edit]

Greetings Ianmacm,

I hope you are well,

I'm contacting you regarding your article - Westgate shopping mall attack

I have added the names of the great people who you identified on your article. I hope that is fine. Also, I will be creating three pages for Taff Groves, Peter Bach and Lorcan Byrne and add a link to their pages on your article. I hope this is fine too.

Thank you,

Best regards, Workdave254 (talk) 09:36, 5 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I was concerned that this edit was giving a name check to people who appeared in news stories but were not overall notable figures in the event. As for creating pages about these people, this would have significant problems with WP:BLP1E.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 10:24, 5 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Well understood and thank you very much for your response.
I'm greatly greatful that you created this article in detail and while going through it, I thought I should add the few names, Mr. Taff, Lorcan and Peter who I noticed you had their titles right.
Actually, I'm from Kenya and also having victims of the attack(wife and kid - escaped with minor injuries and noticibly, the 3 gentlemen happened to have assisted in their escape) I can confirm for sure they are the real people who you have highlighted.
Also, thank you for highlighting the issue that I may face with WP:BLP1E. If in order, I will appreciate your further input on how I can achieve in writing the pages without any problems.
Again, much appreciated. Workdave254 (talk) 10:42, 5 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
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