Hi, you took a short wikibreak and said you were going to Egypt. How come you never edit anything about that country, or went on a 'editting binge' with the new info you learnt about. Usually, people come back from a significant overseas trip full of interest from that area. Just wondering. --Shuki (talk) 00:06, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- I did write al-Azhar Mosque a while back. But when I go to Egypt it is to visit family, not go to tourist spots and take pictures. I haven't taken a trip to Egypt like that since I was a lil kid and my family went on a tour from Luxor to Aswan, stopping at places like Karnak and the Valley of the Kings (though this time I did go to Sharm; I wanted to go to St Catherine's Monastery, but the beach was too nice to leave). If I felt like the material dealing with Palestine and the occupation weren't so badly skewed I would probably take time to write about things related to Egypt, but I see much bigger problems in the coverage of the occupation than I do with the coverage about Egypt. And I write about the things that interest me. Is that a problem? nableezy - 00:11, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- A friend also came back recently from a short trip there and has a ton of stories about the places and culture, and you seem to not have anything to say. You released that great article during a topic ban several months ago and since then, nothing. I find that weird. --Shuki (talk) 00:33, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- ok. I actually started to write that article before any topic ban. I got stories, just not ones I want to share with random people on a website. And your friend was a tourist, I was going home, bit of a difference. The stories are going to be very different. Again, I write about the things that interest me and I see huge problems with the coverage of the occupation. That is more important to me than covering Egyptian cuisine or the history of Shubra or how Shara el-Terra got its name. If I did not feel the need to deal with the incessant nonsense a few people regularly push into articles dealing with Palestine perhaps I would write about those topics. But the nonsense continues so I dont. nableezy - 00:57, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- Okay, I have to ask... "occupation" of what, exactly? IronDuke 22:40, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
- Cocaine production. Oh wait, you werent asking what my occupation is. nableezy - 23:01, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
- Really? Your self-disclosure leads me to conjecture it would be some other organic crop... and I see you have not answered the question. No matter, you are certainly under no obligation to do so. IronDuke 23:05, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
- There is a money-making crop and a happy-making crop. I live by my mans commandments and dont mix the two. And since I cant tell if you are serious or not about the question, I'll provide a link that should help explain what occupation I am referring to. [3]. Excellent book. Coming to many articles near you as a source in the not so distant future. nableezy - 23:10, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
- Should have figured. My man disagrees with your man. I was serious, in that I was hoping you did not mean "occupation" as in occupied from the river to the sea. Not sure about your source... I would use caution, and I know you aspire to edit as I do. IronDuke 23:24, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
- I meant the occupation of the Palestinian territories (the West Bank, including E. Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip) and the Golan Heights. I dont consider Israel proper occupied territory. I hope I havent given such an impression in the past, I dont think I am that extreme in my edits that such a view should be ascribed to me. The source is solid, authored by a university professor and published by a university press. nableezy - 00:12, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- You are exactly right, and I would have been surprised and disappointed had you held such a view. Still not sure about your source, in that he has been condemned by that same university. Not saying never use it, just use with caution. Feel free to ask me for guidance, as needed. IronDuke 00:21, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- He was criticized by some in the Department of Education and donors to the university, as well as a board member, for supporting a boycott of Israel, not for writing this book. However, his own university president defended his right to voice such a view, while not agreeing with the view, after Gordon received death threats. He remains in good standing at the school, and the criticism of Gordon had nothing to do with the quality of his work. nableezy - 00:56, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Right, I think it has more to do with whether a specific and strong POV attaches to the work. Is anybody advancing the idea that he's a neutral scholar in this? The condemnation he received isn't speaking so much to any given fact he'd assert as true, but the lens through which he views the issue (which he seems very much to be an activist in). IronDuke 01:02, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- If that is what you require of sources then we need to purge any reference to a whole host of sources. We both know that "POV" does not factor into how wiki defines "reliability". I dont think there will be a problem with the way I use the source, but we'll see. nableezy - 01:13, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- K. IronDuke 01:43, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
You asked me a question that I would like to turn around. You said you would be disappointed if I were a "river to the sea" person. What about those who define Israel as the "river to the sea"? Does that definition bother you? nableezy - 02:23, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Well, I think that's perhaps a bit fuzzier... can you say what you (or they) mean, i.e., exact geographic contours? IronDuke 02:30, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- All of the territory that Israel currently controls, Israel proper and the occupied territories. nableezy - 03:01, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- That's a hell of a question. I'm taking you to be saying West Bank, Gaza, Golan, and East Jerusalem. Should all of that belong to Israel? Doesn't even merit discussing (and very, very few are). But each separate case is negotiable -- a different problem, and admits of a different solution (or set of possible solutions). For myself, I think all sides are going to have to feel like they got ripped off for a real solution to be effected. IronDuke 03:18, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- For myself, I think one side has already been disproportionately ripped off. I have my own thoughts as to what would be an ideal solution, but I doubt anybody would like it. But thank you for being your usual engaging self, and I mean that sincerely. nableezy - 04:07, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
Nableezy, why you consider Gaza occupied territory?--Mbz1 (talk) 03:31, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- For interest, this very brief piece by Iain Scobbie is quite a nice summary of the widely held "occupation via effective control" view. Sean.hoyland - talk 03:58, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
Because Israel exercises effective military control over Gaza. See here: Israel is the occupying power in the Gaza Strip. In 2005, as part of what it termed “disengagement” from Gaza, Israel removed its settlements and settlers. Yet despite the redeployment of its troops in 2005, the Israeli army has retained effective control over the Gaza Strip. Israel maintains sole control of Gaza’s airspace and territorial waters and does not allow any movement of people or goods in or out of Gaza via air or sea. Israel also continues to exercise a degree of control over Gaza’s border with Egypt and Israeli officials have repeatedly made it clear that this border can only be reopened within the framework of a joint agreement with the Palestinian Authority and Egypt. Israel also continues to control electricity, water and telecommunications in Gaza. It has regularly conducted raids in Gaza, often arresting “wanted” men; and carrying out so-called “targeted killings”, in air strikes which have claimed a high toll on civilians. Effective military control is the determining factor, but what I consider occupied really does not matter on Wikipedia. Gaza itself is a complicated case that I don't think Wikipedia should say is occupied or not as a statement of fact. There are actual conflicting opinions on that question and we should simply describe those opinions. The case of the West Bank, including E. Jerusalem, and the Golan are much more clear cut. Clear enough that Wikipedia should be able to say as a statement of fact that those territories are currently occupied. nableezy - 04:07, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks, you know what I agree with you: Gaza is an occupied territory. Now, could you please tell me, if you believe that as soon as Hamas and the company will stop firing rockets to Israel, she will lift all blockades for good? Israelis left Gaza not because they wanted to continue "occupation". Israel is a small and a poor country. They want peace, no war, but does Hamas? No, It says:"Palestine will be free from the river to the sea". Please do tell me what in your opinion Israel should do in such situation?--Mbz1 (talk) 04:10, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- You really want an answer to this? That wont be enjoyable for you or me. nableezy - 04:32, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- I do, if your answers are going to be polite and civil because I do like to understand.--Mbz1 (talk) 04:35, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- I didnt plan on not being polite, I generally act the way other act with me (unless of course somebody pisses me off, then I revert to my usual charming self). I just dont think you will like what I have to say, and I dont think the policies of this website actually allow me to discuss at length my views on these topics. And as I am sure you are aware, a number of users watch my edits with an intense scrutiny just waiting for the opportunity to finally get me banned (God bless them, doing the Lord's work and all). So if you insist I might be inclined to answer such a question, but I dont think it would be in anybody's interest if I did. nableezy - 04:40, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Nableezy, there's nothing, and I mean nothing that could justify rockets firing into Israel. When a crime is committed, to find the criminal the question is asked: "Who benefited from this crime?" Did Israel benefit from killing "peace activists" on Gaza flotilla? No, no and no. Did Israel benefit from any war she was forced to fight in Gaza? No, no, and no. Does Israel benefit from being forced to maintain Gaza's blockade? No, no and no. Israelis want peace. If you are afraid that you responding my questions could make you topic banned, then please do not. The fact you mentioned topic ban gave me a pretty good idea what your responses would be like. --Mbz1 (talk) 06:03, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Thats nice. The reason I am not responding is that a certain Sherlockian Captain has made a habit of trying to get me blocked and I would rather not add violating WP:SOAP to his list of transgressions. nableezy - 06:51, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Oh, yes, it is a response of anybody, who has no arguments to prove their points. rolandr and some others on your side called me a political extremist and a racist. I am neither. I am for two states solution, I am for peace, I am suffering when an Israeli kid is killed, and I am suffering, when a Palestinian kid gets killed absolutely the same. I will never put a hate propaganda image at my user page, aren't they? Are they? No, I am not a political extremist, and I am not a racist. Aren't they?--Mbz1 (talk) 13:48, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- I have an argument, it just is not one appropriate to make on Wikipedia. nableezy - 14:20, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- And here, where I see the problem. I could put and prove my arguments anywhere without being afraid of getting blocked or topic banned, but anyway... I've taken enough of your time already. I am letting it go now.--Mbz1 (talk) 14:28, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Mbz1, you dont have multiple users digging through your contributions looking for a chance to bring you up to AE. At least 2 users do this on a regular basis with me, one of them going through months of contribs to do so. nableezy - 14:32, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- I also have lots of wikihounds, but I said nothing that I would not have repeated anywhere, and I stand behind my words. If somebody will take me to AE for that, so it be. --Mbz1 (talk) 14:49, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Ok, whatever you say. Take care, nableezy - 15:10, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest something. Let's pretend that the peace in Middle East depends on us. Let's pretend that we are ambassadors, PMs, whatever. Let's discuss peace conditions here at your talk page or at mine, or whatever. IMO it will be an interesting exercise, which might help us to understand each others better. --Mbz1 (talk) 04:31, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- I dont think that is wise. nableezy - 04:32, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Why not?--Mbz1 (talk) 04:35, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Because this is an emotional topic where the discussion can get heated and at the end of the day we do have to work together. Let's say that what I say makes you furious with me, or what you say makes me furious with you. What then? We end up with nothing accomplished besides people disliking each other more than they already may. nableezy - 04:40, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- During your visit to Egypt, did you see any racism towards the millions of black muslims and christians that have fled since the late 1990s to major cities in Egypt, forced to live in refugee camps and considered to be 2nd class citizens, only marginally below the viscerally hated Palestinian minority? What do you think of Egypt's recent support and defensive of Omar Bashir, as well as aid and tacit approval of Arab Islamists that conduct raids against dinka villages? I see Egypt as a rather progressive and modern country in contrast to other Arab nations, but have yet to understand the seeming double standard towards Palestinian human rights and human rights towards victims of Arab foreign policy. And FYI, there is more poverty in Egypt than in Gaza according to the United Nations. Wikifan12345 (talk) 13:37, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- No I did not. And much of the population of southern Egypt is dark-skinned, so I dont know what you are talking about their fleeing to the big cities. But then again, I was for the most part in the big cities. What exactly does this have to do with anything? nableezy - 14:20, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
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