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Hello. If I may ask, which title do you think is preferable? Also, I thought about adding |orig-year=, but apparently this book contains different essays written in different years....?

• Averroes (1953). Crawford, F. Stuart, ed. Commentariumin Aristotelis De Anima. Mediaeval Academy of America.
• Averroes (1953). Crawford, F. Stuart, ed. Commentarium Magnum in Aristotelis De Anima Libros. Mediaeval Academy of America. ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 02:16, 4 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The second, see this Google Books search. Paul August ☎ 11:34, 4 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks...Happy Chinese New Year! ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 20:03, 4 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

What was the reason for the removal of your last edit on the Wikipedia page, on Daedalus? DaedalusGodOfWisdom (talk) 04:45, 21 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The content you added contained no sources, please see WP:SOURCES. Paul August ☎ 10:37, 21 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I see, I will put it back with references. DaedalusGodOfWisdom (talk) 04:00, 23 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

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For the Arbitration Committee, AGK ■ 21:47, 3 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect ¬. Since you had some involvement with the ¬ redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 22:08, 4 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism in Poland. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism in Poland/Evidence. Please add your evidence by June 23, 2019, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism in Poland/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, – bradv🍁 15:08, 9 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hey, Paul August. I'd like to wish you a wonderful First Edit Day on behalf of the Wikipedia Birthday Committee! Have a great day! Mjs1991 (talk) 10:24, 19 July 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Woohoo indeed ;-) Paul August ☎ 10:32, 19 July 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Dear Paul August, On 10 Aug 2019 you blocked my addition on the Tartarus entry. Your reason stated was: (I) created a "now unintelligent sentence fragment". It would very kind of you to EDIT this "now unintelligent sentence fragment" and replace it with an intelligent sentence instead of deleting it. If not, how about offering some academic tutoring that would unblock my info? Miistermagico (talk) 23:32, 11 August 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You misquoted me. What I said was "as having created a now unintelligible sentence fragment". (Unintelligible means unable to be understood, unitelligent means something entirely different.) Your edit left the following:

In the New Testament, the noun Tartarus does not occur but tartaroo (ταρταρόω, "throw to Tartarus"), a shortened form of the classical Greek verb kata-tartaroo ("throw down to Tartarus").

That's not a sentence, it doesn't make grammatical sense. The original version of that text read:

In the New Testament, the noun Tartarus does not occur but tartaroo (ταρταρόω, "throw to Tartarus"), a shortened form of the classical Greek verb kata-tartaroo ("throw down to Tartarus"), does appear in 2 Peter 2:4.

It says that, while the Greek text does not contain the Greek noun Tartarus, it does contain the Greek verb tartaroo which means "throw to Tartarus". What new info are you trying to add? Paul August ☎ 00:26, 12 August 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Dear Paul, Examining this further I see I made an error. Thanks for catching it. Miistermagico (talk) 04:31, 12 August 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Sure, no problem. Paul August ☎ 10:04, 12 August 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Dear Paul,

Regarding your recent removal of an edit I made on the Artemis page, although I did not create the Legacy section I believe it should remain. The use of historic names in modern day branding and communications, specifically with NASA's new mission and Artemis the coffee company, is important in keeping the history of the original source alive in the public's mind. This information is relevant and I believe an edit to correct any lack of sources would have been more appropriate in this scenario. The two on taxonomy and astonomy do seem quite thin, however NASA's use of Artemis will be an extremely popular search in the coming years as we come closer to the mission. The content of the Artemis coffee reference is also fully factual and citations were included to validate this section. CascaraBarbara (talk) 12:56, 16 August 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@CascaraBarbara: Notice that another editor has also removed your addition to that section. I don't believe the comnpany Artemis Cold Brew Coffee, is notable enough to be mentioned in that article. If you wish to discuss this further, please open a discussion on Talk:Artemis, thanks. Paul August ☎ 13:28, 16 August 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Feel free to visit my talk page and comment on the discussion regarding the other editor's revision. The very definition of an encyclopedia is to provide information on many subjects or on many aspects of one subject as possible. This company references to more than just the name of Artemis and that why I believe it is notable enough to be included in this article. As previously mentioned, I believe an edit for incorrect information would have been more acceptable. If you disagreed with the notability of this information you should have opened a discussion in the first place instead of simply removing. CascaraBarbara (talk) 13:45, 16 August 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

My revert of your edit without first opening a discussion on the talk page, reflects the long established standard editorial practice described at WP:BRD: "Making bold edits is encouraged, as it will result in either improving an article, or stimulating discussion. If your edit gets reverted, do not revert again. Instead, begin a discussion with the person who reverted your change to establish consensus". That is, when you make and edit (i.e. your adding the company info) and it gets reverted by another editor (i.e. like me removing the content) you should not revert again (i.e. as you did by adding back the company info), but instead you who should have, at that point, begun a discussion, and not have readded your preferred content, without establishing an editorial consensus. Paul August ☎ 14:08, 16 August 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

		The Barnstar of Greece
		Even though I have mostly left Wikipedia and I am no longer writing articles, I still pop over here now and then to see what is going on. This is to thank you for all your excellent contributions over the years, including your ongoing work on the articles Hecatoncheires and Cyclopes. You are one of the users whom I have most admired over the course of my time here on account of your tireless and devoted efforts to keep the articles on ancient Greece and Greek mythology in good order. I have no idea what Wikipedia would be like if you were to leave. —Katolophyromai (talk) 00:40, 29 August 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Katolophyromai: How very nice! Thank you for your kind words. I'm glad you appreciate my work. I miss your contributions, and seeing you around. Paul August ☎ 00:58, 29 August 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I am still writing obsessively, but I am no longer writing on Wikipedia as much. Nowadays I mostly write answers on Quora and articles on my personal website. Here is a link to my Quora profile and here is a link to my personal website. —Katolophyromai (talk) 06:06, 29 August 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hello, Paul August. There seems to be an error in the transition of the article to its new title. If you click on the talk page for Cyclopes you get Talk:Cyclopes (disambiguation). You're doing a great job with your great contributions to this page. It's been fascinating to watch the progress. - Quarterpinion (talk) 14:50, 31 August 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks, I think I've fixed things now. Paul August ☎ 20:18, 31 August 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

My apologies, I am not a regular Wikipedia contributor, but you have undone a number of my recent attempted edits, as well as those of others attempting similar edits, and I am uncertain how to proceed when it is a matter about which I have personal knowledge that does not yet have a public source. Are you able to provide guidance? Thank you. HudPix (talk) 11:29, 17 October 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@HudPix:, Hi. Sure I'm happy to provide you with what guidance I can. We can't rely on personal knowledge. Everything on Wikipedia needs to be able to be sourced to reliable published sources (see WP:Sources and WP:RS for definitions and details). Let me know if you have any more questions, and I will try to answer them. Paul August ☎ 19:22, 17 October 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks. I think I'm starting to get the hang of things, and am engaging on the article Talk page. HudPix (talk) 00:33, 18 October 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks for removing the PA and putting a target on your own back. Sorry about that. I hope you have a great weekend and a great Thanksgiving. Lightburst (talk) 20:12, 23 November 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks. Paul August ☎ 12:29, 29 November 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Paul August, I have been contributing since 2006, mostly by reading and revising articles. Over the years, particularly in 2011, 2017 and 2018 I read heavily on several sources and criticized several articles that relate to Greek mythology. I am interested in sources and truth but also in structure and elegance when it comes to articles on Wikipedia. I read and commented on a variety of Greek mythology articles and, in some cases, you provided feedback. I understand that we share interest on a few subjects and primarily on Greek mythology to which I dedicated a section of my personal website. I uploaded a variety of documents, currently 9 genealogical trees and 25 paraphrased stories of gods and heroes that compare different sources as well as 2 summaries that compare a variety of mythologies. I created 6 more stories that have been in the making for a while. I would like to know if you would be able to comment on some statements I came across on Wikipedia that I was unable to verify because I could not find a source for them.

ICE77 (talk) 06:48, 29 November 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Sure. I can try. Paul August ☎ 12:28, 29 November 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The birth of the Milky Way

Thanks for the help Paul August!

In the article on Heracles under the "Birth and childhood" section I read this:

"Fear of Hera's revenge led Alcmene to expose the infant Heracles, but he was taken up and brought to Hera by his half-sister Athena, who played an important role as protectress of heroes. Hera did not recognize Heracles and nursed him out of pity. Heracles suckled so strongly that he caused Hera pain, and she pushed him away. Her milk sprayed across the heavens and there formed the Milky Way. But with divine milk, Heracles had acquired supernatural powers. Athena brought the infant back to his mother, and he was subsequently raised by his parents.[23]"

Reference 23 points to "Diodorus Siculus' Bibliotheca Historica (Book IV, Ch. 9)".

I read the passage of Diodorus Siculus at Book IV 9.6 and I do not see any explanation on how the Milky Way was created. Do you think it's pure fabrication or that is explained in some other source?

ICE77 (talk) 09:03, 30 November 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Looking at Milky Way I see:

In Greek mythology, the Milky Way was formed after the trickster god Hermes suckled the infant Heracles at the breast of Hera, the queen of the gods, while she was asleep.^[1][2] When Hera awoke, she tore Heracles away from her breast and splattered her breast milk across the heavens.^[1][2] In another version of the story, Athena, the patron goddess of heroes, tricked Hera into suckling Heracles voluntarily,^[1][2] but he bit her nipple so hard that she flung him away, spraying milk everywhere.^[1][2]

Both cited sources seem reliable, so I think we can accept that there was such a story. However, neither Leeming nor Pache (as far as I can tell) cite any ancient sources, so where this story comes from I don't know. Leeming does cite Robert Graves, The Greek Myths, vol. 2, pp. 90-91. When I get home later today I will look in Graves, to see what he says. Paul August ☎ 10:56, 30 November 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Paul August, thank you for the information. That is my problem: I cannot link the story of the Milky Way to any ancient source which is typically where I want to go. ICE77 (talk) 05:17, 1 December 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I've now had a quick look at Graves, pp. 90-91—and by the way, a word of warning, Graves needs to be taken with a considerable grain of salt, he is not a professional scholar of mythology, and his The Greek Myths contains a lot of creative synthesis, which does not always reflect exactly what the ancient sources actually say, which also means that if Leeming is basing his account solely on Graves (which is the only source he cites) then I think we have to discount to some extent what Leeming says also. In any case, Graves distinguishes, per the quote from our Milky Way given above, two main versions, one involving Athena (as in Diodorus) and the other Hermes, and he also provides ancient sources for each. For Athena, he cites: Diodorus Siculus 6.9; Tzetzes, On Lycophron 1327; Pausanias, 9.25.2; while for Hermes: Eratosthenes, Casterisms 44; Hyginus, Poetic Astronomy 2.43; "Ptolemy Hepaestios, quoted by Photius p. 477"; and Diodorus Siculus 6.10. I'll do some more looking when I get a chance. Meanwhile you might look at:

• Hard, Robin (transl.), Eratosthenes and Hyginus: Constellation Myths, with Aratus's Phaenomena (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2015) ISBN 978-0-19-871698-3

Specifically: pp. 132-135, p. 150, for what Aratus, Eratosthenes, and Hyginus have to say. Paul August ☎ 12:50, 1 December 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Paul August, thanks for the additional comments. I will look at each source. When you say "Diodorus Siculus 6.9" and "Diodorus Siculus 6.10" what book are you referring to?

ICE77 (talk) 20:20, 1 December 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Sorry, that should have been Diodorus Siculus 4.9 and 4.10, so Book 4, chapters 9 and 10. These are the sections of Diodorus that Graves cites, 4.9 you've already seen, per above. However, I've just looked at Diodorus 4.10, and I don't see anything relevant there, so Graves seems to be a mistaken about the second Diodorus cite. Paul August ☎ 21:00, 1 December 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

For Constellation Myths by Eratosthenes/Hyginus and Phaenomena by Aratus I would need to go to a library since pages 133-135 and 150 are blocked.

I looked at the sources that include Athena in the story: Diodorus Siculus (Bibliotheca historica, Book IV 9.1-10.1), Lycophron (Alexandra, 1327) and Pausanias (Description of Greece, 9.25.2).

Then I looked at the sources that include Hermes in the story: Eratosthenes (Catasterismi, 44), Hyginus (Poetic Astronomy, 2.43), Ptolemy Hepaestios, quoted by Photius p. 477 and Diodorus Siculus (Bibliotheca historica, Book IV 10.1-7).

For the sources on Athena I do not see any reference to the birth of the Milky Way and I found the Lycophron "transposition" of the stories of Heracles and Theseus puzzling (Phemius=Poseidon / Tropaea=Hera).

For the sources on Hermes I could not find any source and I would need to go to a library for each of the books. This is with the exception of Diodorus Siculus that does not say anything about the Milky Way and I agree with you it sounds like a sourcing error (maybe from printing).

Based on what I have seen out of the above in just about all cases there is a reference of Hera milking Heracles but nothing more than that. It sounds like a dead end. I think the reference to the creation of the Milky Way that points to Diodorus Siculus in the article on Heracles should be removed. The paragraph should not mention Hera's pity or the Milky Way which are definitely not in the account by Diodorus Siculus.

ICE77 (talk) 07:39, 2 December 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The Graves cite is to "Tzetzes, On Lycophron 1327", that is John Tzetzes’ Commentary (usually titled On Lycophron) on Lycophron’s ‘’Alexandra’’ 1327, not to Lycophron’s ‘’Alexandra’’ 1327, itself. As to what Lycophron does says:

[Theseus] went with the wild beast, the Initiate, who drew the milky breast of the hostile goddess Tropaea,”

The “Initiate” is a reference to Heracles—who was famously an initiate in the Eleusinian mysteries)—while the “goddess Tropaea” is a reference to Hera, so this is clearly a reference to Hearacles being suckled by Hera, however no mention of the Milky Way. Perhaps the bit about Athena and the Milky Way is in Tzetzes—here's a link to Müller's edition: On Lycophron 1327 (in Greek, with Müller's Latin notes)—but I know of no translation of this, but I don't see it, and it would take awhile for me to puzzle out the Greek.

However here is what Eratosthenes, Epitome 44 (Hard, pp. 132–133) says:

It is not possible for sons of Zeus to have any share in the honurs of the sky unless they had been suckled at Hera’s breast; and that is why Hermes, so they say, brought Heracles along after his birth and placed him at Hera’s breast, for him to be suckled at it; but when Hera became aware of it, she thrust him away, and the rest of her milk spilled out accordingly to make up the milky circle [i.e. the Milky Way].

And here is what Hyginus, Astronomy 2.43 (Hard, p. 133) says:

There is also a circle in the heavens which is white in colour, and which men have called the milky circle. Eratosthenes recounts in his Hermes that Hera unknowingly gave milk to the infant Hermes, but when she came to realize that he was Maia’s son, she pushed him away; and that is why a bright trail of spilled milk can be seen among the stars. Others have said that Heracles was placed at Hera’s breast while she was asleep, and she acted as has just been described when she woke up. Or according to other authors, Heracles was so greedy that he sucked in so much milk he could not keep it in his mouth, and what spilled out from his mouth is shown in this circle.

So the story that the Milky Way comes from Hera’s spilt milk (usually while suckling Heracles) is well attested in ancient sources. Paul August ☎ 13:20, 2 December 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Tropaea is clearly Hera but who was Tropaea? I never heard of that. The same I find about Phemius which is Poseidon. That is what I find puzzling.

Thank you for the additional search and the comments on Eratosthenes/Hyginus. It does seem there is a story but the "milky circle" can be anything in the sky. There is no direct reference to the Milky Way itself in the original texts. I assume that "[i.e. the Milky Way]" is your comment. If now, was the "milky circle" the name of the Milky Way before modern astronomy?

ICE77 (talk) 06:31, 3 December 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

No, there is no doubt that what the Greeks referred to as the "Milky Circle" is what we call the "Milky Way". Paul August ☎ 11:40, 3 December 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Alright, then the passage in the "Birth and childhood" section should not use Diodorus Siculus, Bibliotheca historica, Book IV 9.6 for reference 23 but Eratosthenes, Epitome 44 and Hyginus, Astronomy 2.43. Thanks for the information.

ICE77 (talk) 07:02, 4 December 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Theseus and the Minotaur

The article on the Minotaur says that "Theseus killed the Minotaur with the sword of Aegeus and led the other Athenians back out of the labyrinth." I read 5 sources for the story of Theseus and the Minotaur: Diodorus Siculus (Bibliotheca historica, Book IV) , Hyginus (Fabulae), Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca), Plutarch (Life of Theseus) and Pausanias (Description of Greece). None of them says that Theseus used a weapon to kill the Minotaur. In fact, the only source that specified how Theseus killed the Minotaur was Pseudo-Apollodorus who explained Theseus used his fists (Bibliotheca, E.1.9). Do you know what is the source for the account of the sword?

ICE77 (talk) 03:52, 20 December 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Sorry, not offhand, no. When I get a chance I will look into it. In the meantime you could add a: ^{[citation needed]} template, or simply remove it. Paul August ☎ 12:18, 18 January 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Paul August, thanks for the feedback. I added a citation needed tag for the missing source that claims Theseus used a sword to kill the Minotaur.

ICE77 (talk) 23:41, 19 January 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Paul August, have you been able to look into the source of Theseus that use as sword to kill the Minotaur?

ICE77 (talk) 05:26, 22 March 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

No, sorry. Paul August ☎ 12:02, 22 March 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Merry Christmas and a Prosperous 2020!

Hello Paul August, may you be surrounded by peace, success and happiness on this seasonal occasion. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Sending you heartfelt and warm greetings for Christmas and New Year 2020. Happy editing, llywrch (talk) 08:04, 22 December 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply] Spread the love by adding ((subst:Seasonal Greetings)) to other user talk pages.

@Llywrch: Thanks! Happy Holidays and Saturnalia to you too ;-) Paul August ☎ 17:35, 22 December 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You must know my friend the librarian. She used to write Saturnalia carols. -- llywrch (talk) 18:15, 22 December 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Really, I'd love to hear one. Paul August ☎ 18:41, 22 December 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Damn, I wish I could remember one of hers. And not guess at how they went (e.g, "Hark the herald druids sing...") -- llywrch (talk) 16:35, 23 December 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus, rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Points to note:

1. Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made;
2. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes and work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing.

Paul August, You are edit warring on the article Cyclopes, please stop. You made a bold edit to the article on December 13, it was reverted, and a discussion is going on. (See: WP:BRD) There are five editors: Sweetpool50, P Aculeius, Furius, Caeciliusinhorto and myself, who have commented on the talk page, and not one of them has expressed the opinion that the guidelines mentioned on WP:BRD and on WP:CAUTIOUS should be ignored, as you are doing. I am not arguing that the particular content you are repeatedly deleting needs to remain in the article or be unaltered. That particular content was in fact in the process of being edited and adjusted by a number of editors when you interrupted that process with your bold edit. I suggest that the guidelines (WP:BRD WP:CAUTIOUS) should be followed. You are the only editor who seems not to agree with that. I suggest that you end this time-wasting edit war, and allow the editing process to proceed in a normal manner. Please respect the opinions of your fellow editors. If you continue to edit war, against consensus—which does not mean unanimity, see WP:CONSENSUS—you may end up losing your editorial privileges.Bitwixen (talk) 13:22, 29 December 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Bitwixen, kindly don't use other editors to bolster an argument that clearly none of them support, or behave as if you have the right to issue warnings in retaliation because you received one. None of the other editors who responded to requests for comment agree that the material you've been arguing about belongs in that article. Arguing that it has to be restored because the discussion took place after it was deleted is pointless. Several editors have already indicated that you don't seem to be willing to collaborate, but are just insisting that things be as you want them using any excuse or theory that you think supports your position—but at the end of the day, no matter what technicalities you come up with, if it doesn't belong in the article then it's not staying! Please take some advice and drop this matter before you get yourself blocked for disruptive editing. P Aculeius (talk) 13:59, 29 December 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Bitwixen: Please listen to what P Aculeius says. You have made some useful contributions, I would hate to see you blocked. Paul August ☎ 14:06, 29 December 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I have reverted Bitwixen again with the warning that further action on his part will be reported to the admin panel. I would prefer that came from you, but any of us could do it; judging by recent responses, I think our collective patience has come to an end. Like you, I'm reluctant to see a potentially good editor go, but I have been recognising the pattern in Bitwixen's responses from past bitter experience. Over the years 2012-14 (when I went by another name) there was an editor called WP Editor 2011 who used to call himself "a humble Wikignome" and eventually painted himself into a similarly defiant corner, leading to an indefinite ban. Bitwixen's behavior has been so eerily similar that I wondered for awhile whether it was the same person registered under another name. I am hoping a less extensive pause for reflection will bring a change of heart, and perhaps a recommendation to that effect coming from you might carry weight. Sweetpool50 (talk) 20:32, 29 December 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'm sure that P. August is understandably reluctant to resort to using his authority in a dispute in which he himself is involved—as no doubt you are as well. Asking a third party to review the situation and recommend further action, if necessary, would probably be better. P Aculeius (talk) 03:39, 30 December 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@P Aculeius and Sweetpool50: Since I'm involved in the content dispute, I won't be using any of my admin tools here (and I don't think Sweetpool50 expects me to). Although there would seem to be sufficient number of editors aleady involved, asking other parties to "review the situation and recommend further action" is always an option. Can either of you suggest other parties to ask? We can, of course, always report Biwixen to WP:ANEW (where all of our actions will come under review). Another course of action would be to open a Request for comment (RfC). I don't particularly look forward to doing either of these, but if Bitwixen keeps reverting, I suppose something like this will be needed. Paul August ☎ 13:03, 30 December 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I defer to your judgment, as I've mostly stayed out of admin matters in my Wikicareer, thankfully avoiding any kind of sanction—if only by knowing when to back off and give up in the face of overwhelming or at least insanely vigorous opposition. Even in matters of grammar and style—*sigh*! Your judgment, and, if you'll forgive the flattery, willingness to defer to the judgment of others when it's well-reasoned, even if you disagree with it—makes me confident that you'll choose the most efficacious course of action should it be necessary to take this further. As I see it, the worst that could happen is that someone might side with Bitwixen on technical grounds over the initial reversion, but the argument would still be moot since it's been fleshed out by multiple editors on the article's talk page, and they all think the material is better treated elsewhere. P Aculeius (talk) 15:56, 30 December 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You're quite right, @Paul August:, I knew you couldn't take action yourself, but I was hoping you had suggestions for how the next step might be initiated. The last time I attempted something like this I was so technically unskilled I made a complete hash of it - and got accused of edit-warring into the bargain. That in turn emboldened the other editor, so that his misbehaviour continued much longer than it need have. What I had in mind was an ANI for edit-warring, should Bitwixen persist after his final warning. If we need someone uninvolved, I could draw the situation to the attention of the administrator in shining armour who finally sorted out the problem I mentioned above. He's very much a St George kind of character, which is why I wanted to make sure an appeal for clemency went with the appeal! Sweetpool50 (talk) 17:06, 30 December 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Sweetpool50: Well WP:ANI would technically be a bit premature, since that page is for "discussion of urgent incidents and chronic, intractable behavioral problems", which I don't think this is, yet (although in practice such technicalities are often ignored). The edit warring noticeboard WP:ANEW would be the more appropriate administrative noticeboard. You could certainly bring this situation to the previous admin, who you found helpful, asking for their help and advice. That might obviate the need to take the more formal actions I've mentioned above. And frankly, I don't deal a lot with this kind of administrative work, and there are many far more experienced admins in such matters than I, who might have better ideas for how best to move forward. Paul August ☎ 18:02, 30 December 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@P Aculeius and Sweetpool50: Bitwixen now blocked for 31 hours: User talk:Bitwixen#December 2019. Paul August ☎ 19:09, 30 December 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It seems as if you too have a dragon-slayer up your sleeve! I only hope it doesn't tip him over the edge again. Sweetpool50 (talk) 20:21, 30 December 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

No dragon-slayer up my sleeve, it would hardly be big enough. It's rather more likely I'd find myself in the pocket of a certain fire breathing destroyer of Japanese cities. Paul August ☎ 21:29, 30 December 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Welcome in pocket, little Paul! Feel free use catflap! bishzilla _ROARR!! pocket 21:32, 30 December 2019 (UTC).Reply[reply]

Thanks ... but you're going to scare my guests. Paul August ☎ 21:48, 30 December 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Dear Paul,

You wrote,

This is a detail of panel 16, neither of these figures are Telephus or Auge. Telephus stands to the far right of panel 16 (not shown here), and only his torso is extant. On panel 17 Auge stands to the right of Telephus holding a helmet out for Telephus)

I respectfully defer to your judgment here. But perhaps you can also suggest an appropriate caption for this photo? Because it seems to be mislabelled, or not properly labelled. Regards. Y-barton (talk) 18:32, 11 January 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Here is an image of the full panels 16 and 17 which together are titled "Telephus receives weapons from Auge". Below it is the image you added to Telephus, which is a detail of panel 16. The two figures in the detail are male attendants, standing behind Telephus. Telephus' torso, wearing a cuirass, can be seen in the top image just to the right of the two attendants. Why do you say the photo is "mislabelled"? Where do you see this mislabeling? Paul August ☎ 22:06, 11 January 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you, Paul, for your clarification. I have now added more labelling to this image at the Commons. It was just insufficiently labelled, I guess, so I got confused. Y-barton (talk) 03:44, 24 January 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You're very welcome. Paul August ☎ 12:48, 24 January 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Kudpung. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Kudpung/Evidence. Please add your evidence by January 28, 2020, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Kudpung/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, CodeLyoko^talk 04:56, 14 January 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

If that counts as a challenge to deletion then the definition of challenge is meaningless. Anyway I think the article is not notable and I don't have an account. 2604:3D09:417F:DEB0:4C7D:ACD:5A4A:C5E3 (talk) 05:45, 15 January 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You may be right about the article (Paradeigma). In any case WP:PROD is for uncontested deletions, which is not the case here. By policy, the quality of the challenge is not a consideration. Your next step would be to nominate the article for deletion, see WP:AFD. You don't need an account to do that. Regards, Paul August ☎ 11:56, 15 January 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I know you meant well, Paul, but my son informs me it's "hueg" now. Compare Urban Dictionary. Admittedly that definition is from 2004, so it's probably something completely different by now. Bishonen | talk 21:52, 12 February 2020 (UTC).Reply[reply]

;-) Paul August ☎ 21:55, 12 February 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You forgot to sign it, you might want to do that.LakesideMiners^{Come Talk To Me!} 15:52, 18 February 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks. Paul August ☎ 15:54, 18 February 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Paul August, its kinda amusing given the topic. LakesideMiners^{Come Talk To Me!} 15:57, 18 February 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You are welcome.

Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:38, 20 February 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article has had barely any activity for the past 8 or so years, and if someone even knows about this article, they can add onto it. I request that you leave this article unprotected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.24.210.141 (talk) 20:17, 22 February 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'm not the admin who last protected the article. Paul August ☎ 19:58, 29 March 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I somehow missed that you said you didn't get what the gorilla was about. Believe it or not, it's a kind of expression of sympathy for arbcom members, who -- once elected -- can't ever really be just regular ol' editors anymore, because everyone knows they hold the power of life and death. It's kind of like how movie stars can't just go into a restaurant for a quiet bite to eat. This is completely different from implicitly accusing an arb of abusing their authority or intimidating someone, as you seemed to think. (I'm explaining here to avoid complicating that thread further.)

I just want to add, and I really mean this, that though I think you're dead wrong about the analog people, I bear no one on the project ill will (well, almost no one) and you're welcome to visit any time. EEng 04:39, 14 March 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@EEng: Thanks for the explanation. I could have investigated via the link that Iri provided, but was too lazy. And in any case I felt confident at that point that the image didn't mean what it looked like it might. So you think I'm dead wrong about the "analog people", but I don't think I've expressed an opinion on them. I'd really like to know what is it exactly that you think I think? As I admire many things about you, I welcome your welcome, and I will try to make a point of visiting more often (even if only to scold, and by the way I only ever bother to scold people who I think might be good enough to be worth trying to make better). Paul August ☎ 13:05, 14 March 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I was talking about your expressed opinion that the analog-binary caption was unacceptable. Don't admire me, I'll just break your heart. Besides, Levivich has already agreed to marry me; J.S. Mill is writing our vows. EEng 03:37, 16 March 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@EEng: But I never expressed an opinion about the caption. I certainly never said it was unacceptable. Here's what I did say:

"I think you happen to be in the wrong here. We all make mistakes, and we should all try to listen with an open mind to other people when they tell us we've made one. ... For me, if some[one] thinks one of my jokes is offensive—even if I think they are the only one who thinks so—I think my response would be to apologize, and retract it. It seems to me to [be] just a matter of simple politeness. ... Regardless of whether or not the removal was right, I'm trying to say that your response could have been more polite. ... I'm sorry, but I see nothing in your responses above that indicate to me that you are listening to or taking on board any of the constructive criticisms your fellow editors are trying to give you. It would be good if you could try harder to do that. ... That you seem to believe that everything you've done here was perfectly appropriate—that you seem to believe all your critics are wrong—that you take no responsibility at all for any part of this problem—is disheartening."

I didn't mean by any of this that your *caption* was necessarily inappropriate, but that, in my opinion, your *response* to those who did think so was less than ideal. Paul August ☎ 10:25, 16 March 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

P.S. I wish I had an appropriately funny image and caption with which to lighten the mood. Paul August ☎ 10:25, 16 March 2020 (UTC) Reply[reply]

You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Medicine. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Medicine/Evidence. Please add your evidence by April 21, 2020, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Medicine/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, Dreamy Jazz 🎷 ^{talk to me | my contributions} 20:50, 7 April 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

What was the reason for the removal of the last edit on the Wikipedia page Patroclus, about his intentions? Nawel Laakel (talk) 06:29, 24 April 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Well it misspelled "Sarpedon" as "Saperdon", and the edit was poorly worded, and seemed like unnecessary details to me. If you feel strongly about it, you can add it back. Paul August ☎ 10:22, 24 April 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Achelous, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Alcmaeon (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver).

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Hi, Paul August, I seem to have gotten into a content dispute at the above article but managed to persuade the other editor to take it to the Talk page. Trouble is that the subject is judged of low interest in the template there, so there may not be much discussion. I remembered when you were working on Cyclopes that you went to the relevant topic project and interested other editors in taking part. That would be Project:Nevada in this case, but I'm not sure where or how to word such a request so that it doesn't sound like canvassing. I'd be grateful if you could advise me on that.

Should that not generate discussion, I believe there's another forum where some of the procedural aspects of the article might be discussed. For me that's primarily weighing secondary and tertiary sourced facts against WP:UNDUE. I'd like to draw on your knowledge on which forum that might be, in case it comes to it. You did a superb job of moderating on Cyclopes and managed the discussion there very skilfully. It's a skill that I lack, unfortunately! Thanks in advance for any advice you can give. I hope you're staying safe. Sweetpool50 (talk) 10:05, 2 May 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi Sweetpool. Yes I'm staying very safe thanks, I hope you are as well.

I'm sorry to hear about your content dispute. I've taken a brief look at the talk page discussion, and it seems to have just got started. If it were me I'd probably see what happens there before asking others for help. However, the place to raise the issue with the Nevada project would be at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Nevada. That project seems a bit moribund however, so I wouldn't count on much help from there. If you do post a request there, or elsewhere, just briefly, and neutrally describe the dispute, provide a link to the appropriate talk page discussion, and ask for help (see WP:CAN). You could also ask the other editor (or editors) to help in the writing of such requests. Which would be a good exercise in consensus building. Other places you could ask for help are WP:THIRD or WP:DRN. Before doing that, be aware that both of those boards will expect that the issue has been thoroughly discussed on the article talk page first.

Benediximus, Paul August ☎ 11:47, 2 May 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you very much, that's most useful. I've edited down the section in question in the hope that will help defuse things. Sweetpool50 (talk) 09:26, 4 May 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Good. Paul August ☎ 10:51, 4 May 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I cited a source, namely, Greekmythology.com, just look at that page on Greekmythology.com and it says that he is worshiped by many as a protogenoi god with Chaos and Gaia as his parents. 82.17.221.173 (talk) 19:44, 18 May 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I've just left the following reply to you on Talk:Oceanus:

"The website greekmythology.com is not an acceptable source for Wikipedia. (For what constitutes an acceptable source please see Wikipedia:Reliable sources). Nor does that website cite any acceptable sources, in fact it cites no sources at all. Ultimately any source for this would have to be based on some ancient source, and as I said, I know of no ancient source which says this. Paul August ☎ 20:02, 18 May 2020 (UTC)"Reply[reply]

Paul August ☎ 20:07, 18 May 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Achelous, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Triton (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver).

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Wishing Paul August a very August happy adminship anniversary on behalf of the Wikipedia Birthday Committee! Chris Troutman (talk) 18:32, 1 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

;-) Paul August ☎ 19:10, 1 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Happy Adminship Anniversary!

Have a very August happy adminship anniversary on your special day!

Best wishes, CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 22:18, 1 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Please take a look at James Sadat (talk). To the best of my knowledge, this user is edit warring and violating ‘What not to have on your user-page?’ I think the user should be blocked under ‘Conflict of interest’ and ‘Clearly not here to build an encyclopaedia.’ Idell (talk) 10:58, 5 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I've blanked that page and left an explanatory message on their talk page. WP:COI or WP:NOTHERE don't yet apply. Paul August ☎ 12:54, 5 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Sadat has reversed the blanking. Sweetpool50 (talk) 13:38, 5 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I've now blanked and protected the page. Paul August ☎ 14:08, 5 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Thoas (king of Aetoila), you added links pointing to the disambiguation pages Nestor and Meriones (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver).

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Rhexenor is categorised as a DAB page.

It might be better to move the mythological stuff over Rhexenor (mythology), or to return it to an SIA and hatnote the millipede. Narky Blert (talk) 14:41, 19 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Yes that page is now a mess. I think somebody tried to merge a dab page and set index article. Paul August ☎ 14:42, 19 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Ok, I've now made that page a SIA, with a hatnote for the millipede genus, as suggested. Paul August ☎ 20:09, 19 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Narky Blert: I now think I've fixed everything with respect to that page. I've also tried to explain things, as best I could, to the user who did the merge here. Please feel free to add to, or correct, what I've said there. I'm sorry I undid your edits without taking the time to look into the situation more carefully. Regards, Paul August ☎ 10:23, 20 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

No worries. I've checked the pages to which I'd added a ((dn)) tag, and all are now clean.

I think the hatnote solution is best. The obscure millipede junior synonym is outnumbered by the obscure mythological figures. A DAB page might be permissible under WP:TWODABS, but looks really unnecessary - Rhexenor is not going to collect bad links-in. Narky Blert (talk) 10:42, 20 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks, and I agree. Paul August ☎ 10:49, 20 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Another advantage has only just occurred to me - if anyone is looking for the millipede, they'll learn the origin of the name en route. Narky Blert (talk) 09:22, 21 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Well, presumably it was named after one of these, but which one? And whatever for? Paul August ☎ 09:39, 21 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The taxon authority just says "mythological", and gives no reason. Narky Blert (talk) 13:17, 22 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

That's often the case I would assume. And even the entry "mythological" has little value to me, since I would guess that such an entry is often simply the result of an (albeit reasonable) assumption on someone's part. Paul August ☎ 13:57, 22 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Anyway, you goaded me into digging up the original paper and adding it to Narceus, which is all to the good. Biologists' style is to say just (Authority 18xx) or the like, trusting that there's been no data corruption between the first publication and whatever it was they copied the information from. An interesting and relatively straightforward search, starting clean from "Brexenor millipede"; it took only 20 minutes, with few dead ends. Narky Blert (talk) 20:32, 22 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Good. Paul August ☎ 22:39, 22 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

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Sorry to trouble you, Paul August. A while back you managed to widen discussion on the Cyclopes Talk Page by drawing attention to it through the appropriate portal. I'd like to do that for a discussion about the novel above but can't see where to do that at the Novel Portal. Could you advise me, please? Sweetpool50 (talk) 14:06, 1 July 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I didn't note the discussion on any portal, rather I mentioned the discussion at the Wikiproject: Classical Greece and Rome's talk page. For information on Wikiprojects see Wikipedia:WikiProject. An appropriate project might be Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels, you could mention the discussion on that projects talk page: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Novels. As for WP:portals, I don't know much about them, other than that most apparently attract little traffic. Paul August ☎ 14:29, 1 July 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thx, I'll follow it up there. Sweetpool50 (talk) 16:21, 1 July 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Circa is significantly easier to look up than the more cryptic "c." Please stop being critical of changes that are helpful, but you do not happen to "like". 50.25.221.206 (talk) 02:28, 4 July 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Please see WP:MOS which says:

"To indicate approximately, the abbreviation c. (followed by a space and not italicized) is preferred over circa, ca., or approx. The template ((circa)) may be used."

Hey, Paul August. I'd like to wish you a wonderful First Edit Day on behalf of the Wikipedia Birthday Committee! Have a great day! Chris Troutman (talk) 21:10, 19 July 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks ;-) Paul August ☎ 23:23, 19 July 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Happy First Edit Day!

Have a very happy first edit anniversary!

From the Birthday Committee, CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 23:34, 19 July 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

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Hello. I recently replied to you on Euripides' Talk page. I am not as well-turned in Wikipedia as you presumably are, with your administrator title, and accordingly do not know if that was the correct way to reply. But I am now here, as a guess, because you have not replied there; and because I want to direct myself directly at you, because your administrator title implies that you know things that I do not; and that you have some disposition to improve things. I bring you myself as such a thing for improvement, which may consequently sprout some improvements to articles, which is surely very enticing indeed. To be plain with you, if I may, I want you to be plain with me, if you may; particularly concerning translation (and particularly of ancient text, such as quotes we swing mid the Euripides ship and fellows, etc). You have removed some translations I made, calling them "original research", and suggesting I read about such things. I have read and read again everything pertinent I could find on the original-research-reliable-neutrality-translation-citation-etc pages, but doing so has only led me to believe that proffering translations of Euripides quotes (because the quote, as I interpret it, is of Euripides; not his translators) is neither "original research" (for that, as I interpret it, is nonsense), nor unacceptable. Somewhere it says that "official" translations are preferred to those of article-editors. But this suggests indeed that an article-editor may proffer translations (as I said on the Talk page, one reason I included the Greek is because the Greek is the quote, not the translation). What I will do now, is demonstrate very simply and quickly why I preferred myself to the "reliable sources". For it is not vainglory, nor such stuff. I have access to two "reliable" translations of Aristophanes' Clouds. But first, the Greek: line 123: "ἀλλ᾿ ἐξελῶ σ᾿ εἰς κόρακας ἐκ τῆς οἰκίας". I do not know if you can Greek, but that, in English, is: "I will expel you from the house, toward the crows". Nearby, line 133: "βάλλ᾿ εἰς κόρακας":"Throw to the crows" ("yourself" is implied). Now, for the reliable sources: Alan Sommerstein, in an Aris & Phillips edition, gives: "I'll throw you out of the house, and you can go to blazes"; and: "Oh, get stuffed!", respectively. Jeffrey Henderson, in a Loeb edition, gives: "I'll throw you the hell out of the house!"; and: "Buzz off to blazes!" So, we may note here, if we choose to, that only I and Aristophanes speak of the carrion birds. What I am hoping for, from you, is some clarification concerning translation generally; particularly, to stick with our examples here, why I cannot enlighten the world with what text actually is (ie source text (ie Greek)), and what it actually means (ie target text); because, as we have seen, in our examples, the reliable sources are not actually reliable sources; and because we do not equally understand the rules. This latter is desirable. Untitled50reg (talk) 17:49, 11 August 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Oh, and, just for clarity: my issue is not THAT my translations were removed, but WHY; rules are unclear. Untitled50reg (talk) 18:03, 11 August 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Yes I'm sorry I haven't been more responsive here, but I've been mostly sick in bed since Saturday. I will try to clarify things when I'm feeling better. Hope that is ok. Paul August ☎ 18:46, 11 August 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I was myself stuck in bed, sick, for much of last week (and, indeed, until Saturday), so am content for you to carry that on without me. I don't mean to imply any impatience, but rather that I was not certain that you would be aware that I replied to you. I am now suspicious that some sort of communication has been successful, so can leave you til whenever. Untitled50reg (talk) 19:26, 11 August 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Untitled50reg: I'm finally feeling well enough to give what I hope is a cogent reply :-)

All assertions made in Wikipedia must be verifiable (See WP:V). In particular all quotes must be accompanied by a cite to a reliable published source from which the quote has been taken. That would not be possible (presumably) for one of your translations.

You also ask if you may provide the Greek text associated with some given quoted translation. You may, provided you give a reliable source for that Greek text. For example if you wanted to give the Greek text for Euripides' Medea lines 250–251, you could write:

κακῶς φρονοῦντες: ὡς τρὶς ἂν παρ᾽ ἀσπίδα

στῆναι θέλοιμ᾽ ἂν μᾶλλον ἢ τεκεῖν ἅπαξ.^[1]

Where "Kovacs, p. 306" might refer to the following entry in a "Bibliography" section of the article:

• Euripides, Medea, translated by David Kovacs in Euripides. Cyclops. Alcestis. Medea. Edited and translated by David Kovacs. Loeb Classical Library No. 12. Cambridge, Massachusetts: Harvard University Press, 1994. ISBN 978-0-674-99560-4. Online version at Harvard University Press.

I hope this helps. Regards, Paul August ☎ 14:58, 16 August 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Paul August: I think I understand, if I understand that a translation of a quote is considered to be itself the quote; and, though verifiable, as pointing to what it translates, is itself, perversely, what it translates, and therefore needing a source as if it were a quote. And, for reliability, that pertains rather superficially and abstractly to dogma and names, thus, from my neutral point of view, what I think, sticking with translations of Euripides, extends only to, say, minimising distortion, using verifiable information; employing verifiable dogma to ward off unverifiable dogma, which latter may distort unacceptably.Untitled50reg (talk) 14:50, 17 August 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Dear Mr August.

My name is Moutzouris Ilias, i am a medical doctor Microbiologist in Agios Dimitrios, Messinia, Greece. If you have some avaliable time, can we please discuss about the deleted text https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Helen_of_Troy&oldid=972989910 ?

As you know the theories for the birth of Helen are many. One of the theories is that Helen and Dioscuri (the brothers of Helen: Castor and Pollux) came out from the same egg. This theory can be verified from at least 3 different sources:

1. Timothy Gantz - Early Greek Myth (page 321): "the scholia at Homer Odyssey 11.298 have all the three childer (as Zeus') emerge from the egg." In Servius, we find again the notion (as in the Odyssey scholia) that the three childern were born from one egg afther the mating of Zeus/swan and Leda (Σ Aen 3.328; cf. VMI78; III 3.6)."

2. Fulgentius - The mythographer (page 78): "For Jove disguised as a swan lay with Leda, who laid an egg from which were born the three, Castor, Pollux, and Helen of Troy. "

3. The Vatican mythographers (page 45): "The Story of the Swan and Leda. Striving after the love of the maiden Leda, Jupiter changed himself into a swan and pretended that he was fleeing from an eagle. He had transformed Mercury into the eagle. Thus, received into the lap of Leda, he had intercourse with her; she produced an egg from which three offspring were born: Castor, Pollux, and Helen."

In at least 2 different sources we can read that Dioscuri were born on a specific islet called Pefnos, beneath the crests of Taygetus mountain in Messinia-Peloponnese:

1. Pausanias - Description of Greece (English) (page 225): "And about twenty stades from Thalames is a place called Pephnos, by the sea. There is a little island in front of it not greater than a big rock, which is also called Pephnos, and the people of Thalames say that it was the birthplace of Castor and Pollux. Alcman also gives us the same account i know in one of his poems. But they do not say that they were brought up at Pephnos, for Hermes took them to Pellana. And in this island there are brazen statues of Castor and Pollux about a foot high in the open air. These the sea cannot move from their position, though in winter time it dashes violently over the rock. This is indeed wonderful, and the ants there are whiter in colour than ants generally. The Messenians say that the island originally belonged to them, so that they claim Castor and Pollux as theirs rather than as deities of the Lacedaemonians. "

2. Homeric hymns - xvii. 3, xxxiii. 4 sqq. (page 63): XVI. TO THE DIOSCOURI Of Castor and Polydeuces do thou sing,—shrill Muse, the Tyndaridæ, sons of Olympian Zeus, whom Lady Leda bore beneath the crests of Taygetus, having been secretly conquered by the desire of Cronion of the dark clouds. Hail, ye sons of Tyndarus, ye cavaliers of swift steeds.

The famous professor of Archaeology Dr. Petros Themelis, who is the leader of excavations for over 30 years of the city of Ancient Messene ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messene ), combined those sources and concluded that since Dioscuri were born on the Pefnos islet and since Helen and Disocuri were born from the same egg, then the birth place of Helen is Pefnos islet in Messinia. In order to verify this, he created some days before a statue of an egg with engraved the union of Zeus/swan and Leda, as it is shown on the ancient statue stored in British Museum ( https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/G_1973-0302-1 ). You can see more photos and info of the statue at a facebook page created: https://www.facebook.com/Η-γέννηση-της-Ωραίας-Ελένης-στη-βραχονησίδα-Πέφνο-614729455848919 and a drone video of the construction at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fYLr6Nqa14

In 22 of August the municipality of West Mani ( https://www.dimosdytikismanis.gr/en/home-english/ ) has a ceremony on the Pefnos islet, with the unveiling of the statue. The presentation of the statue will be done by the Minister of Culture and Sports of Greece, Miss Lina G. Mendoni ( https://www.culture.gov.gr/en/ministry/SitePages/political_leadership.aspx?role=Υπουργός ) and Dr. Petros Themelis. I will send you the verifications of all this after the 22th of August, from various newspapers and tv stations.

So you can understand that the verification of Helen's birthplace from the official Greek government and from Dr. Petros Themelis, one of the most famous and important archaeologists of Greece, are some major facts we need to seriously consider.

Please let me know of your opinion

Best regards

Dr. Moutzouris Ilias Medical doctor of Microbiology --Kavouras55 (talk) 09:20, 15 August 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

We're having a discussion about a particular source and whether it should be used in Talk:Molossians#Georgiev in the context of the theories it puts forward about IE languages in the Balkans. What are the prevalent opinions about it in your experience with relevant bibliography?--Maleschreiber (talk) 22:13, 17 August 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I stomped through Euripides, and left a trail of "cn" and "what". "Since We and Thou had it out already" (possibly quoting here Finnegans Wake, to stress the seriousness), I am sticking a big serious sign to your face, which says: "I have already accepted this responsibility, and am glad to fix things forthwith".Untitled50reg (talk) 20:52, 18 August 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thx for yr patience! Sweetpool50 (talk) 09:10, 26 August 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Of course. Paul August ☎ 14:10, 26 August 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

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Dear sir, You just deleted a text from the birth of Helen of Troy, because you mentioned “it does not belong here”. I am a user with little experience in wikipedia, can you please help me with this? I mentioned the birthplace of Helen, do you suggest it does not belong to the “Life-birth”? Should i make another title on “Life” called “Birthplace”? Best regards Kavouras55 (talk) 13:18, 9 September 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The commemoration of the supposed birth place, by a town in Greece is not particularly notable. In any case, according to the ancient accounts of her mythology, Helen was born to Leda, who was the wife of the Spartan king Tyndareus. I don't know of any ancient source which specifies Helen's birthplace, but the presumption would be that it was in Sparta. I don't know why the island of Pefnos claims she was born there. I know of no ancient sources which say this. So in lieu of such sources, I don't think that claim should be in the "birth" section, or in fact anywhere in the "Mythology" section (the recently renamed "Life" section). At most the local claim of the Island to be the "birthplace" of Helen might warrant a mention in our article Pefnos, but as I say that fact is not particularly of "encyclopedic" interest. Paul August ☎ 13:48, 10 September 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Dear sir, Please let me refer on two things that needs to be considered:

1. The claim of Pefnos to be the birthplace of Helen, is not a local claim as you mention. If you see at the official web page of the Greek ministry of culture and sports https://www.culture.gov.gr/el/Information/SitePages/view.aspx?nID=3432 (only Greek text), you can read that the Minister of Culture and Sports of Greece, Miss Lina G. Mendoni ( https://www.culture.gov.gr/en/ministry/SitePages/political_leadership.aspx?role=Υπουργός ) herself inaugurated the statue on the Pefnos island and claimed that Helen was born from this egg. I made a translation for you of the Greek text: "Inauguration of the monument of Dioscuri, on the islet Pefnos, in West Mani On Saturday night the Minister of Culture and Sports Mrs. Lina Mendoni, representing the Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis, inaugurated in the Municipality of West Mani, in Agios Dimitrios next of Stoupa, the monument of Dioscuri, on the islet Pefnos: An egg that the artist Giannis Gouzos has carved the mixing of Leda with Zeus-Swan. According to the legend that has been saved in the verses of Euripides Helen and in the texts of Pausanias, Leda after her union with Zeus-Swan laid an egg on the islet of Pefnos or in another variation of the myth laid two eggs. From the union of Leda with Zeus Helen was born, the beautiful Helen of Menelaus, Clytemnestra and the Dioscuri, Castor and Polydeuces, whom the Spartans worshiped as demigods and when they were thrown into battle they were singing the paean in their honor. Professor Petros Themelis contributed to the depiction on the monument, while the Mayor of West Mani believes that the monument will contribute on making Agios Dimitrios of West Mani known to the whole world and will attract visitors. Especially if the monument-egg will be connected with the two carved tombs of Agia Sophia in Old Kardamili, which are attributed to Dioscuri by Strabo. The Minister of Culture and Sports in her greeting spoke about the intertemporal depiction of the myth of the union of Leda with Zeus: "The ancient Greeks are distinguished for their fertile fictional imagination, but the myths contains and often indicates historical data. The myths were depicted in all art forms of antiquity - this spesific myth adorns a mosaic of exceptional quality in Palaipafos of Cyprus - but they were also a source of inspiration for all the great painters of the Renaissance and otherwise. A typical example is the famous painting by Leonardo da Vinci, which in a unique way depicts the moment of the birth of Leda's childrens ", noted Mrs. Lina Mendoni, exciting the Italians attending at the event. "The myths that refer to this area, in today's Mani, such as the one about the birthplace of the Dioscuri but also of Eleni and Clytemnestra, inspire the inhabitants, the local authorities and the artists and becomes the cause of creation of modern works with new approach. The rich cultural reserve of Messinia allows our imagination to give existance to the myths, tied to its magical natural environment. The visitor of Agios Dimitrios will be able to follow the path of Pausanias and Strabo and live the myths and the history of Mani in its big duration, in a combination with the hospitality, the local products and whatever is consistent in showing that the place becomes a destination ", the Minister concluded, thanking the Municipality of West Mani for his initiative."

So as you can read on the official text of the Greek ministry of culture and Sports, the minister herself which is responsible for all the antiquities of Greece, claims that Helen was born on Pefnos island. As you can also read, the famous professor of Archaeology Dr. Petros Themelis, who is the leader of excavations for over 30 years of the city of Ancient Messene, also claims the same thing, as he also inaugurated the egg of Pefnos island. So the claim is not local, its an official claim from the official Greek government and also from one of the most famous Greek archaeologist professors.

2. The legends that are mentioned on the above text, are ancient texts of Euripides "Helen" and texts of Pausanias. The texts from Euripides "Helen" (https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/EuripidesHelen.php) Line 17: "Helen: As for me: My land is the famous Sparta and my father is Tyndareas, though there’s a story that says that one day Zeus disguised himself as a swan that was supposed to be fleeing the clutches of an eagle and, if one is to believe that story, he flew to my mother’s bed and, by deception, he made love to her. Leda is my mother’s name and mine is Helen." Line 252: "Helen: Dear friends! Look at the Fate to which I am yoked: My mother has brought me to this world to be nothing more than a monstrous freak! No woman –neither Greek nor barbarian- has given birth to the egg of a white bird, yet, they say, that this is what my mother has done. Leda, they say, delivered me inside the shell of a bird’s egg. Zeus is my father."

As you know Tyndareas was the king of Sparta and Leda was his wife. Thats why Helen mentions Sparta as her land. But she also says that there is another story, the story of Zeus/swan. According to this story Helen was not the daughter of Tyndareas, but daughter of Zeus. So we assume from the text that according to the first story Helen is from Sparta, but according to the second story she is not from Sparta.

The text from Pausanias: Description of Greece (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0160%3Abook%3D3%3Achapter%3D26%3Asection%3D2 http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0160%3Abook%3D3%3Achapter%3D26%3Asection%3D3 ) "[2]Twenty stades from Thalamae is a place called Pephnus on the coast. In front of it lies a small island no larger than a big rock, also called Pephnus. The people of Thalamae say that the Dioscuri were born here. I know that Alcman too says this in a song: but they do not say that they remained to be brought up in Pephnus, but that it was Hermes who took them to Pellana. [3] In this little island there are bronze statues of the Dioscuri, a foot high, in the open air. The sea will not move them, though in winter-time it washes over the rock, which is wonderful. Also the ants here have a whiter color than is usual. The Messenians say that this district was originally theirs, and so they think that the Dioscuri belong to them rather than to the Lacedaemonians."

In this text you can read about the island Pephnus (or Pefnos) and the report of Pausanias that Dioscuri (Castor and Polydeykis - the brothers oh Helen) were born there. But since we know that Dioscuri and Helen were born from the same egg (at least 3 different sources verify this - Timothy Gantz - Early Greek Myth (page 321), Fulgentius - The mythographer (page 78), The Vatican mythographers (page 45)), then the conclusion is that Helen and Dioscuri were born from the same egg on the island Pefnos.

As you mentioned at another point, Helen and Dioscuri were not real persons, they were myths, thats why their stories belongs to mythology. But even if it is mythology, it has places mentioned that are actually real places. And the reason for this is because the ancient writers liked to put their "heroes" living near or between them, on places that were familiar to them. One of this places was a small island that had the shape of a bird's nest, when you look to it by the shore. Because of its shape, the ancients (Pausanias, the people of Thalamae and the ancient poet Alcman) imagined that on this island the famous egg was born. And from this egg Dioscuri and Helen came up. This island is called Pefnos and indeed it looks like a bird nest. On this island according to Pausanias used to be bronze statues of Dioscuri and now there is a modern sculpture of an egg depicting the union of swan/Zeus with Leda. The egg was made by the local municipality of West Mani (Check their official site: https://www.dimosdytikismanis.gr/εγκαινιάστηκε-από-την-υπουργό-πολιτι/), but it was such a big event for all Greece, that the minister and the most famous professor of archaeology inaugurated it.

Please tell me your opinion about all this.

You can also check reports about the birth of Helen on Pefnos island, from various websites: https://www.athina984.gr/en/2020/08/25/egkainia-toy-mnimeioy-ton-dioskoyron-sti-duyiki-mani/ https://houseinpeloponnese.com/the-mysterious-peloponnese-mani-beautiful-helen-born/ https://www.in.gr/2020/08/25/culture/texni/egkainiastike-mnimeio-ton-dioskouron-stin-stoupa/ https://best-tv.gr/δυτική-μάνη-εγκαινιάστηκε-από-την-υπο/ https://ioniantv.gr/o-mythos-twn-dioskourwn-epistrefei-sthn-dytiki-mani/ https://www.iefimerida.gr/politismos/mani-marmarino-aygo-sti-brahonisida-pefnos https://eleftheriaonline.gr/local/politismos/ekdiloseis/item/221269-messinia-glypto-gia-ti-gennisi-tis-oraias-elenis-sti-vraxonisida-pefnos-sti-mani-vinteo https://www.messinialive.gr/dytiki-mani-parousia-tis-ypourgou-politismou-egkainia-tou-avgou-ston-agio-dimitri/

That's a lot of material to digest. However, as far far as I can tell, the only ancient source mentioning a related birth on the island of Pefnos is Pausanias 3.26.2 which says:

"The people of Thalamae say that the Dioscuri were born [on Pephnus]."

So no mention of Helen being born there. Note there are many different accounts involving the birth of Helen and her siblings. Yes some ancient sources say that Helen and the Dioscuri were born from the same egg, but other sources say there were two eggs, one containing the Dioscuri, the other Helen and Klytaimestra. I see no way to conclude from Pausanias' account, that the legend of the "Thalmae" whereby the Dioscuri were born on Pefnos, must necessarily have included Helen being born there also. In fact it seems to me that if that legend had included Helen, Pausanias would have said so. Paul August ☎ 11:53, 12 September 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks for your effort on the subject. Please note that Pausanias says: "The people of Thalamae say that the Dioscuri were born here. I know that Alcman too says this in a song". So its the people of Thalamae (Thalamae is a village of West Mani) and the famous poet Alcman that claim this. The ancient sources that claims Helen and Dioscuri were born from the same egg are at least three: 1. Timothy Gantz - Early Greek Myth (page 321): "the scholia at Homer Odyssey 11.298 have all the three childer (as Zeus') emerge from the egg." In Servius, we find again the notion (as in the Odyssey scholia) that the three childern were born from one egg afther the mating of Zeus/swan and Leda (Σ Aen 3.328; cf. VMI78; III 3.6)."

2. Fulgentius - The mythographer (page 78): "For Jove disguised as a swan lay with Leda, who laid an egg from which were born the three, Castor, Pollux, and Helen of Troy. "

3. The Vatican mythographers (page 45): "The Story of the Swan and Leda. Striving after the love of the maiden Leda, Jupiter changed himself into a swan and pretended that he was fleeing from an eagle. He had transformed Mercury into the eagle. Thus, received into the lap of Leda, he had intercourse with her; she produced an egg from which three offspring were born: Castor, Pollux, and Helen." Ofcourse there are other sources claiming about two eggs etc, but those sources are not that many.

The important thing to understand is that there are two scenarios of where Helen was born, as she mentions in Euripides "Helen": In the first scenario she was born in Sparta, in the second scenario she implies she was born somewhere else. So where is this other place? Its the place that Zeus disguised as a swan and seduced Leda and Leda created an egg. So we can find the second scenario place, if we can find the place that the egg was created.

According to Pausanias, Dioscuri were born on the island Pefnos. As we know there also two scenarios of were Dioscuri were born. The first is in Sparta (if Tyndareas were their father) and the second is in Pefnos (if Zeus was their father). On the second scenario they came out from an egg.

After the mate of Zeus with Leda, she created either one or two eggs. As we can understand she could not place one egg on Pefnos island and the other somewhere else. Like in nature, all the animals that produce eggs, they do it to their own specific nest and they dont put eggs here and there.

So we can understand that definitely Leda put the egg (or eggs) on Pefnos island, since Dioscuri were born there. So this is the place from our previous question, the place that the egg (or eggs) were created.

Pausanias saw a small statue of Dioscuri on Pefnos island ( http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0160%3Abook%3D3%3Achapter%3D26%3Asection%3D3 ): "In this little island there are bronze statues of the Dioscuri, a foot high, in the open air. The sea will not move them, though in winter-time it washes over the rock, which is wonderful. Also the ants here have a whiter color than is usual. The Messenians say that this district was originally theirs, and so they think that the Dioscuri belong to them rather than to the Lacedaemonians." As we can read in his text the Messenian people claimed that Dioscuri belonged to them rather than to the Spartians (Lacedaemonians). And thats the reason they put Dioscuri statue on the island, because Dioscuri were gods of war and the locals were always wild and war-friendly in these areas. Helen was not of much interest for them, thats why they didnt care to put a statue or even mention anything about her.

The most important is that since the Greek ministry of culture officially claims that Helen was born on this island ( https://www.culture.gov.gr/el/Information/SitePages/view.aspx?nID=3432 and a translation from another website here: https://www.athina984.gr/en/2020/08/25/egkainia-toy-mnimeioy-ton-dioskoyron-sti-duyiki-mani/ ), wikipedia cannot ignore this. I think that at least we should mention this on the page of Helen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kavouras55 (talk • contribs) 12:34, 12 September 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Wikipedia can't simply assert that Helen was born on Pefnos. The most we can ever do, in this regard, is to report where ancient accounts said she was born. However, no ancient report is explicit about where that was supposed to have been. The most we have is conjecture based upon inferences drawn from several different ancient sources, that, in at least one version of the story, she might have been thought to have been born on the island of Pefnos. And for Wikipedia to assert even the possibility of the existence of such a legend, would require "Reliable sources", which I don't think we have here. Otherwise, no matter how valid and convincing such conjecture might seem to you or me, it is not appropriate for Wikipedia (see Wikipedia's policy on "Original research"). Paul August ☎ 13:12, 12 September 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Dear Mr Paul, I just communicated with the professor and he gave me one of the ancient reports that proves Helen came from Pephnos. The ancient poet Lycophron on his poem "Alexandra", describes Helen as "Pephnaian bitch" (in Greek: "Πεφναίας κυνός") (Lykophron: Alexandra, by Simon Hornblower, Oxford University Press, page 143: "I see the winged firebrand rushing to snatch the dove, the Pephnaian bitch, which the aquatic vulture gave birth to, encased in a round covering of shell.") You can see the book here: https://books.google.gr/books?id=NprxCQAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false On the cite 87 (page 142) the writer explains what the "Pephnaian bitch" means: "87. Πεφναίας κυνός: these words are best separated off by commas, as by Hurst/Kolde: Helen is both dove (Aphrodite's bird) and Pephnaian bitch (i.e. sexually shameless, a description applied by Helen to herself more than once, e.g. Il 6.344; cf. 850, and for the two passages see Sistakou 2009: 242). For Pephnos in Messenia see IACP: p. 551 (G.Shipley); more fully at Shipley 1997: 266-7; Barr. map 58 C4, on the river Pamison between Thalamos and Leuktron. The Spartan poet Alkman (PMGF 23), cited by Paus. 3.26.2, says the Dioskouroi (Helen's brothers) were born there; this makes the ethnic appropriate as a way of designating Helen of Sparta (Σ adds that she set out from there); cf. Ghali-Kahil 1955: 207. This ethnic therefore drops an advance hint of the long Dioskouroi section at 503-568." Please tell me your opinion. Best regards.

Thanks for Hornblower's note to Lycophron, ''Alexandra 87. Given that note, together with Pausanias, 3.26.2, I think we might now be justified in asserting the following:

Pausanias also says that there was a local tradition that Helen's brothers, the Dioscuri, were born on the island of Pefnos, adding that the Spartan poet Alcman also said this,^[1] while the poet Lycophron's use of the adjective "Pephaian" (Πεφναίας) in association with Helen, suggests that Lycophron may have known a tradition which held that Helen was also born on the island.^[2]

Paul August ☎ 14:51, 14 September 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

My pleasure to help on this, Mr Paul. I totally agree with the way you described the referrings to the ancient poets (Alcamn, Lycophron) and traveller (Pausanias). I suggest if we add as cites, an opinion article of the professor of Archaeology Petros Themelis on a Messenean newspaper, describing the myth of birth of Helen in a very poetic way: https://eleftheriaonline.gr/local/politismos/item/222736-me-aformi-to-avgo-tis-lidas-stin-pefno-i-gennisi-tis-oraias-elenis-kai-i-optikopoiisi-tis-mnimis The only problem is that its in Greek, but i think the professor can translate it in English and publish it again on the newspaper. Also may we add the official press release of the Greek ministry of Culture and Sports, which describes the myth and adds an official verification of the modern Greek state: https://www.culture.gov.gr/el/Information/SitePages/view.aspx?nID=3432 .The problem is that this is also only in Greek. Best regards

I think the sources provided above (Hornblower, p. 142; Lycophron, Alexandra 87; Pausanias, 3.26.2) are sufficient for Wikipedia's purposes. Paul August ☎ 14:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You are right Mr Paul, i agree on this. The only think i would like to add is a photo of the sculpture placed on Pefnos island, a marble egg depicting swan/Zeus with Leda. Hope you agree on this. Best regards Kavouras55 (talk) 14:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Dear Mr Paul, should i post the text you proposed or would you like to post it? Best regards Kavouras55 (talk) 14:11, 17 September 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'll post it, thanks. Paul August ☎ 14:29, 17 September 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Perfect. Thanks for the constructive dialogue we had. Best regards Kavouras55 (talk) 14:43, 17 September 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I've now posted a (slightly modified) version of what I wrote above. Note I did not add the image you've suggested, since I don't think it is appropriate here. Please be aware that other editors may disagree with this addition to the article. Also, in that regard, I am going to copy this discussion to that article's "talk page": Talk:Helen of Troy, so that there is a record of this discussion there, and so that other editors can read and perhaps comment on it. If you wish to contribute anything further to this discussion please do so there, thanks. And thanks again for contributing to Wikipedia. Regards, Paul August ☎ 15:04, 17 September 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks again Mr Paul, glad i could help. Best regards Kavouras55 (talk) 16:16, 17 September 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hello Paul August!

First of all, my name is Calvin, and I am currently working on my first ever Article for Creation! I come to your talk page to ask for assistance with said AfC, and I found your user page by reading the list of active administrators on Wikipedia! I also read through your user page and you seem to be a very thoughtful and helpful editor. I am here to ask for help with the article for Kurt Kerns (Draft:Kurt Kerns) who was a member of the rock band Gravity Kills and since then has gone on to become a notable architect.

The Article for Creation has hit numerous blocks for not passing notability guidelines, and just recently the editor that Rejected the draft told me that he was not convinced, and I should try to ask another editor for their opinion. I would love for you to take a look at the page if you have time and let me know what you think! If you look at the draft's talk page, you can see the dialogue I had with the other editor about the AfC meeting the WP:AUTHOR guidelines, and his reasoning for Rejecting. I do not agree with the editor's reasonings, and I am interested in what you think of this issue.

Any assistance would be much appreciated, and I look forward to receiving your input. Thank you!

Calvin Foss (talk) 20:16, 10 September 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi Calvin. I'm sorry that your proposed AfC was rejected. I had a brief look at your draft, and the associated discussion. Unfortunately I have no expertise, and little interest in this topic area. However, although notability is inherently somewhat subjective, it is not clear to me that the subject of your draft has received the "significant coverage" required to meet Wikipedia's "General notability guideline". Note that, as that guideline also points out:

"If a topic does not meet these criteria but still has some verifiable facts, it might be useful to discuss it within another article. "

So you might consider trying to incorporate some of this content into other articles.

Regards, Paul August ☎ 10:32, 12 September 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi! You're right about this. I just noted that this IP editor has been unjustifiably removing content for some time and reverted several of their edits. I shouldn't have reverted that one though. --Omnipaedista (talk) 14:01, 11 September 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

No problem. Paul August ☎ 14:46, 11 September 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I think the article on Thales could use some work. Not being a historian, I don't know how exactly to do it. I've added a section in that article's talk page detailing what I think doesn't fit well. It'd be nice for you to drop in there. I'm new on Wiki and you're one of only two historians I know here, and have repeatedly seen making good edits, so I thought I'd ask you. Hope you don't mind... Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI (talk) 04:43, 12 September 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You stated, "Sources establish the existence of Zagreus as a character, but no sources given which establish any particular relevance, significance and notability with respect to the article's subject." What sources, in your opinion, would establish particular relevance, significance and notability with respect to the article's subject? Other pages about the Greek deities contain sections on their depictions/receptions in modern culture.—Claym-45 (talk • contribs) 16:24, 21 September 2020‎ (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi Claym. We would need some source which, in discussing the Greek god Zagreus, mentions the character in the video game as being a particularly relevant/significant for the understanding of the god, or is a particularly noteworthy example, say, of the gods continuing importance. For quidelines on such matters see WP:TRIVIA, and in particular MOS:POPCULT. As for other articles, see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Regards, Paul August ☎ 17:05, 21 September 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

	The Original Barnstar
	Thanks for getting Seven against Thebes going: I was looking at it, or really for it, this summer and was surprised to find almost nothing at all, so I really appreciate it. Drmies (talk) 14:49, 30 September 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Drmies: Thanks. Yes I've created a stub, and I'm working on fleshing it out. A complete article will be biggish. And yes it is very surprising that such an article didn't already exist! The Theban Cycle (of which the war of the Seven against Thebes plays a major part) is second only to the Epic Cycle in importance for Greek mythology. I suppose that the lack of an article was also partially due to the fact that Aescylus' play Seven Against Thebes is, I guess, what most people think of when they see "Seven against Thebes". And the plays' article, acting like a black hole, sucked in all the references to the Seven. I've been working through the hundreds of links to play, tying to fix that. Paul August ☎ 15:28, 30 September 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Ha, I made that mistake myself, as you can see from the corrections. And this is incredibly important for a whole bunch of things that matter to me, including teaching Antigone--the play is of course very terse on the matter, and a bit of background is absolutely necessary for my students. Plus I also teach Chaucer's Knight's Tale in the same class, which is also set in the aftermath of the Seven against Thebes. And then there's Statius, as a second guide for Dante, but I see you've been working on Thebaid (Latin poem) also. Well, I appreciate the work you're putting in: it is very necessary, and it's a biggish job indeed. Drmies (talk) 15:35, 30 September 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Well, thanks again. As for Statius' poem, I've been reading it while recently rewriting our articles on Hypsipyle and Opheltes, which is also how I came to notice our glaring omission regarding the Seven. Paul August ☎

News and updates for administrators from the past month (September 2020).

Administrator changes

Ajpolino • LuK3

Jackmcbarn

Ad Orientem • Harej • Lid • Lomn • Mentoz86 • Oliver Pereira • XJaM

There'sNoTime → TheresNoTime

Guideline and policy news

• A request for comment found consensus that incubation as an alternative to deletion should generally only be recommended when draftification is appropriate, namely 1) if the result of a deletion discussion is to draftify; or 2) if the article is newly created.

Technical news

• The filter log now provides links to view diffs of deleted revisions (phab:T261630).

Arbitration

• The 2020 CheckUser and Oversight appointment process has begun. The community consultation period will take place from September 27th to October 7th.
• Following a request for comment, sitting Committee members may not serve on either the Ombuds Commission or the WMF Case Review Committee. The Arbitration Committee passed a motion implementing those results into their procedures.

Miscellaneous

• The Universal Code of Conduct draft is open for community review and comment until October 6th, 2020.
• Office actions may now be appealed to the Interim Trust & Safety Case Review Committee.

Regarding the lemma homotopy analysis method, I have found one older publication from 1989, in which the method is used [1] early than any other reference. Do you think, that it should be incorporated/quoted into the lemma? Bg, Warboerde (talk) 17:37, 1 October 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Seven against Thebes, you added links pointing to the disambiguation pages Olympia and Ker.

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News and updates for administrators from the past month (October 2020).

Administrator changes John M Wolfson Bduke • Nilfanion • Philosopher • Rspeer • Yunshui Interface administrator changes Ragesoss TonyBallioni

CheckUser changes EdJohnston • Oshwah • Yamla Yunshui Oversight changes Anarchyte Yunshui

Guideline and policy news

• Community sanctions now authorize administrators to place under indefinite semiprotection any article on a beauty pageant, or biography of a person known as a beauty pageant contestant, which has been edited by a sockpuppet account or logged-out sockpuppet, to be logged at WP:GS/PAGEANT.

Technical news

• Sysops will once again be able to view the deleted history of JS/CSS pages; this was restricted to interface administrators when that group was introduced.
• Twinkle's block module now includes the ability to note the specific case when applying a discretionary sanctions block and/or template.
• Sysops will be able to use Special:CreateLocalAccount to create a local account for a global user that is prevented from auto-creation locally (such as by a filter or range block). Administrators that are not sure if such a creation is appropriate should contact a checkuser.

Arbitration

• The 2020 Arbitration Committee Elections process has begun. Eligible editors will be able to nominate themselves as candidates from November 8 through November 17. The voting period will run from November 23 through December 6.
• The Anti-harassment RfC has concluded with a summary of the feedback provided.

Miscellaneous

• A reminder that standard discretionary sanctions are authorized for all edits about, and all pages related to post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people. (American Politics 2 Arbitration case).

Hi, Paul - would you please close this case? It was archived with the indef t-ban being imposed. Thx in advance. Atsme 💬 📧 15:28, 5 November 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Atsme: I would recommend that you move that discussion from the Archive, back to the original page, adding a request that it be closed (closing such things is not really my cup of tea, but I may give it a look if I can find the time). Paul August ☎ 15:56, 5 November 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Atsme: Well it now looks like someone else has just moved it back. Adding a comment/request for closer, should keep it from being automatically archived again. Paul August ☎ 15:59, 5 November 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Atsme: Actually Rhododendrites, when they moved that discussion back to the main page, they added a DNAU (DoNotArchiveUntil) template, which prevents it from being automatically archived. Paul August ☎ 16:28, 5 November 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you, Paul - I see that it was handled. Atsme 💬 📧 16:39, 5 November 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Good. Paul August ☎ 16:55, 5 November 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Seven against Thebes, you added links pointing to the disambiguation pages Dryas and Ismarus.

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 06:12, 15 November 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

As an administrator I would like to bring to your attention the great irony of the 12:01, 23 November 2020 edit to Polyphemus (I do not know how to link directly), as well as the perceived unwarranted hostility toward myself from that editor. This latter is exemplified by the reversion being performed because of who performed the preceding edit. The editor which I point to, as you may be aware, has before now quasi-vandalised my talkpage (scrubbed out by a different editor), in addition to quasi-threatening me and ignoring my polite overture concerning the - as perceived by me - wildly unreasonable hostility. The hostility is not a problem, but the editor's behaviour which is goaded by the hostility is a problem. Untitled50reg (talk) 13:59, 23 November 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

If you want other editors to take you seriously, and treat you with respect you shouldn’t make edits like this unconstructive edit. My advice is to make only constructive edits, and not worry about other editors. Paul August ☎ 16:12, 23 November 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you for the advice. But I do not care at all what anybody thinks of me, whether on Wikipedia or elsewhere. My concern was not so much about an editor but rather the edits of an editor. There is evidently a strange clique which curls around the classical pages of which you are an editor of authority therein, and I accordingly thought that you might want to imply that the hostile editor is an ass, to thereby soothe his sweet soul, and let Wikipedia go on unimpeded by the unconstructive edits such as the one I brought here (for the tag which I placed there, which was removed, is quite an applicable tag). For I am a thing of much benevolence and desire most acutely the soothing of a sweet soul. But if I told the editor that the editor is being an ass, this would not be a sweetness. From you it would be a sweetness. But I will trouble you no more on the matter, for I am not an editor taken seriously nor respected. Alas. Untitled50reg (talk) 22:08, 23 November 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hello! Voting in the 2020 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on Monday, 7 December 2020. All eligible users are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate in the 2020 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add ((NoACEMM)) to your user talk page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 01:17, 24 November 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

News and updates for administrators from the past month (November 2020).

Administrator changes

Andrwsc • Anetode • GoldenRing • JzG • LinguistAtLarge • Nehrams2020

Interface administrator changes

Izno

Guideline and policy news

• There is a request for comment in progress to either remove T3 (duplicated and hardcoded instances) as a speedy deletion criterion or eliminate its seven-day waiting period.

Technical news

• Voting for proposals in the 2021 Community Wishlist Survey, which determines what software the Wikimedia Foundation's Community Tech team will work on next year, will take place from 8 December through 21 December. In particular, there are sections regarding administrators and anti-harassment.

Arbitration

• Voting in the 2020 Arbitration Committee Elections is open to eligible editors until Monday 23:59, 7 December 2020 UTC. Please review the candidates and, if you wish to do so, submit your choices on the voting page.

Paul, you're so organized!! You even have a "Work queue"! I'm lucky to have Siri remind me about appointments, and to set the timer so I'll remember to turn-off the heat when I'm hard boiling eggs - (trust me, you don't want to burn all the water out of the pan when you're boiling eggs). That's as organized as I get anymore these days!! My wardrobe is pretty organized because of the COVID-19 lockdown - I have night pajamas on the right and day pajamas on the left. The Cheetos are on the middle shelf next to the cashews and beer nuts. Atsme 💬 📧 17:47, 2 December 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I have a work queue yes, but it just keeps growing. Paul August ☎ 21:08, 2 December 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Achelous, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Argos.

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An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Adrastus, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Aristomachus.

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You'll have noticed that I moved the discussion to which you have lately contributed a query to its proper place at The Walnut Tree. Best wishes for a safe and productive New Year! Sweetpool50 (talk) 06:51, 1 January 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Sweetpool50: Felix novus annus.

Thanks for undoing on Titanomachy (epic poem). I'm a bit curious, based on the references, shouldn't it be known that Zeus comes from outside Greece and not Greece? Best regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by Leger Agrippa (talk • contribs) 17:05, 1 January 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I don't understand what you mean. What "references"? Why do you say Zeus does not come from Greece? Paul August ☎ 02:12, 2 January 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Adrastus, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Etruscan.

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News and updates for administrators from the past month (December 2020).

Administrator changes Hammersoft Andres • Brion VIBBER • Rkitko • Thatcher

CheckUser changes Barkeep49 • BDD • CaptainEek • Primefac Oversight changes Barkeep49 • BDD • CaptainEek Joe Roe

Guideline and policy news

• Speedy deletion criterion T3 (duplication and hardcoded instances) has been repealed following a request for comment.

Technical news

• You can now put pages on your watchlist for a limited period of time.

Arbitration

• By motion, standard discretionary sanctions have been temporarily authorized for all pages relating to the Horn of Africa (defined as including Ethiopia, Somalia, Eritrea, Djibouti, and adjoining areas if involved in related disputes). The effectiveness of the discretionary sanctions can be evaluated on the request by any editor after March 1, 2021 (or sooner if for a good reason).
• Following the 2020 Arbitration Committee elections, the following editors have been appointed to the Arbitration Committee: Barkeep49, BDD, Bradv, CaptainEek, L235, Maxim, Primefac.

Hello This bot Materialscientist is confusing me with other vandalizers I was reverting a bad edit. this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1000944392 I reverted it https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1000944462

And then this bot reverted and warned me on my talk page.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1000944622

The same thing happened again I reverted the unsourced edit https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1000946415 Here’s my edit https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1000946594 The bot confused me with the unregistered user https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1000946628

How can I avoid this problem and how can I remove the warnings from my talk page? Oxforder (talk) 19:41, 17 January 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Materialscientist is not a bot. Why do you think so? The edit to Row hammer that you reverted, removed some questionable and unsourced text. That's not vandalism. What makes you think it was? Materialscientist reverted your edit because you failed to provide a reliable source for the content you were adding back. There is nothing inappropriate about that. The other edit was perhaps a mistake, you should just ask Materialscientist on their talk page. As for the posts on your talk page, you can just remove them. Paul August ☎ 21:54, 17 January 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

News and updates for administrators from the past month (January 2021).

Administrator changes Hog Farm Mattflaschen • Nandesuka • Savidan • Wangi

CheckUser changes Berean Hunter • Xeno Oversight changes Someguy1221 • Xeno

Arbitration

• The standard discretionary sanctions authorized for American Politics were amended by motion to cover post-1992 politics of United States and closely related people, replacing the 1932 cutoff.

Miscellaneous

• Voting in the 2021 Steward elections will begin on 05 February 2021, 14:00 (UTC) and end on 26 February 2021, 13:59 (UTC). The confirmation process of current stewards is being held in parallel. You can automatically check your eligibility to vote.
• Wikipedia has now been around for 20 years, and recently saw its billionth edit!

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Amphiaraus, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Hard.

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 06:15, 10 February 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I have nominated Greek mythology for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:51, 27 February 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I will take a look. However, a thorough review of that article would be an enormous job. And I am just qualified to know that we have few (if any) editors qualified to do it. Paul August ☎ 12:38, 28 February 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

News and updates for administrators from the past month (February 2021).

Administrator changes

TJMSmith

Boing! said Zebedee • Hiberniantears • Lear's Fool • Only • WGFinley

Interface administrator changes

AmandaNP

Guideline and policy news

• A request for comment is open that proposes a process for the community to revoke administrative permissions. This follows a 2019 RfC in favor of creating one such a policy.
• A request for comment is in progress to remove F7 (invalid fair-use claim) subcriterion a, which covers immediate deletion of non-free media with invalid fair-use tags.
• A request for comment seeks to grant page movers the delete-redirect userright, which allows moving a page over a single-revision redirect, regardless of that redirect's target. The full proposal is at Wikipedia:Page mover/delete-redirect.
• A request for comment asks if sysops may place the General sanctions/Coronavirus disease 2019 editnotice template on pages in scope that do not have page-specific sanctions?
• There is a discussion in progress concerning automatic protection of each day's featured article with Pending Changes protection.

Technical news

• When blocking an IPv6 address with Twinkle, there is now a checkbox with the option to just block the /64 range. When doing so, you can still leave a block template on the initial, single IP address' talkpage.
• When protecting a page with Twinkle, you can now add a note if doing so was in response to a request at WP:RfPP, and even link to the specific revision.
• There have been a number of reported issues with Pending Changes. Most problems setting protection appear to have been resolved (phab:T273317) but other issues with autoaccepting edits persist (phab:T275322).

Arbitration

• By motion, the discretionary sanctions originally authorized under the GamerGate case are now authorized under a new Gender and sexuality case, with sanctions authorized for all edits about, and all pages related to, any gender-related dispute or controversy and associated people. Sanctions issued under GamerGate are now considered Gender and sexuality sanctions.
• The Kurds and Kurdistan case was closed, authorizing standard discretionary sanctions for the topics of Kurds and Kurdistan, broadly construed.

Miscellaneous

• Following the 2021 Steward Elections, the following editors have been appointed as stewards: AmandaNP, Operator873, Stanglavine, Teles, and Wiki13.

Hello Paul August--you have access to JSTOR, right? I typed in the name and got plenty of hits; if you don't and you'd like me to email you some material, please let me know. Have a great day, Drmies (talk) 15:12, 13 March 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I do have access to JSTOR, thanks. Will check there (eventually). I'd be interested in knowing any particularly useful titles you've found. Paul August ☎ 15:29, 13 March 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

News and updates for administrators from the past month (March 2021).

Administrator changes

Alexandria • Happyme22 • RexxS

Guideline and policy news

• Following a request for comment, F7 (invalid fair-use claim) subcriterion a has been deprecated; it covered immediate deletion of non-free media with invalid fair-use tags.
• Following a request for comment, page movers were granted the delete-redirect userright, which allows moving a page over a single-revision redirect, regardless of that redirect's target.

Technical news

• When you move a page that many editors have on their watchlist the history can be split and it might also not be possible to move it again for a while. This is because of a job queue problem. (T278350)
• Code to support some very old web browsers is being removed. This could cause issues in those browsers. (T277803)

Arbitration

• A community consultation on the Arbitration Committee discretionary sanctions procedure is open until April 25.

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals) § Redesigning the featured, good, and article assessment icons. Pbrks (talk) 21:10, 2 April 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Cepheus (father of Andromeda), you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Argos.

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User:Pee ef pee has had their user name reported at WP:UAA. I thought I saw constructive edits, but then I saw your "only warning". I was wondering what prompted that. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 19:06, 28 April 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Deepfriedokra: Hmmm ... Unfortunately I don't remember the cirmcumstance here. The "warning" was apparently in response to this edit, which is primarily pro Albanian POV pushing. What that edit does is to add the unsourced statement that:

"genetic links between Albanians and Pre-Indo-Europeans are fairly strong"

and at the same time essentially delete, in the subsequent note, the following:

"Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers and Bernd Jürgen Fischer, editors of Albanian Identities: Myth and History, present papers resulting from the London Conference held in 1999 entitled "The Role of Myth in the History and Development of Albania." The "Pelasgian" myth of Albanians as the most ancient community in southeastern Europe is among those explored in Noel Malcolm's essay, "Myths of Albanian National Identity: Some Key Elements, As Expressed in the Works of Albanian Writers in America in the Early Twentieth Century".

replacing those two senetences with the sentence fragment:

"Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers and Bernd Jürgen"

which deletes some opposing (apparently sourced) POV, misnames one of the editors (intentionally?), and mangles the note.

However, unless the name change was intentional, this isn't really vandalism, so that particular warning now looks inappropriate to me. Paul August ☎ 10:40, 29 April 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Aerope, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Pausanias.

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 06:09, 6 May 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

News and updates for administrators from the past month (April 2021).

Administrator changes

Enchanter • Carlossuarez46

Interface administrator changes

Ragesoss

Guideline and policy news

• Following an RfC, consensus was found that third party appeals are allowed but discouraged.
• The 2021 Desysop Policy RfC was closed with no consensus. Consensus was found in a previous RfC for a community based desysop procedure, though the procedure proposed in the 2021 RfC did not gain consensus.

Technical news

• The user group oversight will be renamed to suppress. This is for technical reasons. You can comment at T112147 if you have objections.

Arbitration

• The community consultation on the Arbitration Committee discretionary sanctions procedure was closed, and an initial draft based on feedback from the now closed consultation is expected to be released in early June to early July for community review.

I was about to ask you if severe pruning of the final section of Cyclopes might not be in order, but you have already stepped in. I've cut it down even further so that it remains focussed on the proper subject. Hopefully Madreterra won't make an issue of it, but his editing history doesn't look reassuring. Sweetpool50 (talk) 13:16, 17 May 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Your changes look fine. Paul August ☎ 14:10, 17 May 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

What you have done here is very strange. Neither of the titles is "accurate" (see the scan here, for example), and "PH.D. in two volumes" is meaningless anyway. Plus, besides these two titles where I had slightly edited punctuation (this by itself is generally perfectly allowed), that edit included many more legitimate changes, so reverting it completely was at least not polite. So I'm restoring my edit. If you have any concerns, please edit only what is needed (which we can discuss, if you want). — Mikhail Ryazanov (talk) 20:46, 31 May 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Mikhail Ryazanov: I'm sorry I didn't mean to be impolite. You changed the title of four works in the references section (incorrectly in my view) and correctly added three periods to the end of three of the works. So the easiest thing to me seemed to be to revert your edit, and add back the three periods, which is what I did. So in effect I did change "only what is needed". As for the titles:

• Hard's book, has "H.J. Rose" in the title not "H. J. Rose". This is how it is printed in the copy of the book I own which I used as a reference, see also: WorldCat. So I think that should be changed back. Do you disagree?
• As for the the other three titles they were take (perhaps incorrectly) from here, here, and here. Paul August ☎ 22:19, 31 May 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Normalizing punctuation and formatting to conform to the house style is in fact recommended. English Wikipedia generally uses spaced initials with periods. For the Murray books, I have inserted links to their scans (at the Internet Archive) to the article, so you can check how these titles actually look in these books. For the Hard's book, look carefully at its title (I did at Google Books, already linked in the article) – it, for example, does not have the quotation marks and the colon, but does have a space between the initials (on the cover, although not on the title page – however, in the text they also don't space any initials, so this is their house style) and very different capitalization and italics. So there is no reason to copy titles verbatim from the books themselves or from any third-party catalogs, because if we do so, the references section will be a crazy mix of incompatible formats. — Mikhail Ryazanov (talk) 23:28, 31 May 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

OK Paul August ☎ 10:08, 1 June 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Wishing Paul August a very August happy adminship anniversary on behalf of the Wikipedia Birthday Committee! ~~~~ User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 19:09, 1 June 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks!

Happy Adminship Anniversary!

Have a very happy adminship anniversary on your special day!

Best wishes, CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 22:42, 1 June 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks!

		The Content Creativity Barnstar
		For dedication to improving and expanding the Ancient Greece topic. Cote d'Azur (talk) 19:25, 5 June 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks. Paul August ☎ 19:47, 5 June 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

News and updates for administrators from the past month (May 2021).

Administrator changes

Ashleyyoursmile • Less Unless

Husond • MattWade • MJCdetroit • Carioca • Vague Rant • Kingboyk • Thunderboltz • Gwen Gale • AniMate • SlimVirgin (deceased)

Guideline and policy news

• Consensus was reached to deprecate Wikipedia:Editor assistance.
• Following a Request for Comment the Book namespace was deprecated.

Technical news

• Wikimedia previously used the IRC network Freenode. However, due to changes over who controlled the network with reports of a forceful takeover by several ex-staff members, the Wikimedia IRC Group Contacts decided to move to the new Libera Chat network. It has been reported that Wikimedia related channels on Freenode have been forcibly taken over if they pointed members to Libera. There is a migration guide and Wikimedia discussions about this.

Arbitration

• After a Clarification request, the Arbitration Committee modified Remedy 5 of the Antisemitism in Poland case. This means sourcing expectations are a discretionary sanction instead of being present on all articles. It also details using the talk page or the Reliable Sources Noticeboard to discuss disputed sources.